As well you should be! Before long SAE will be history. Care to offer anything on the topic of the thread???
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Is anyone else worried?
- Thread starter hrfunk
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As well you should be! Before long SAE will be history. Care to offer anything on the topic of the thread???
That is not always a bad thing, time is money and we all have a limited amount of time. I am a "fixer" it is what I do, I fix everything. But a few years ago the wife and I did some remodeling, freshened up the basement bathroom since we would be living in the basement while we did a major overhaul of the upstairs. I thought I'll do the tile, it can't be that hard, I did the basement and what I nightmare. It turned out okay but took 4 nights, a lot of cussing and has a couple small imperfections that I notice. All for about 20 square feet. My wife begged me to hire someone for the upstairs master bath, which is about 60 sq ft. They came in and prepped the floor in about 2hrs, came next day and laided all the tile, came next day and laid the grout. Cost me $250+tile and grout. If you count tools to buy or rent it really isn't worth the effort. Best money I spent on the project. Next I hired a painter, IN and Out in 3 days, painted all the walls ( color change so had to cover good) ceiling, base boards, and ALL doors. Both people where very professional and did much better work than I could have done, especially in the time frame they did it in. Seriously I think those two hires took two weeks off the project for me.
I certainly grasp the concept of paying a pro to do something. Esp. when you have more important things to do. Rest assured that I've thrown away plenty of time in an effort to avoid paying. However I really have a hard time stomaching things when I pay a pro and get screwed. Seems to happen more & more these days. Some folks are handier than others. Spent most of my life figuring out how things work and gathering tools so I do it myself if at all possible. That way the only one I can be mad at is myself ;-) I suppose that if your little tile job was that hard, it was a good idea to hire out the upstairs.
To the point, our son told us of an incident he came upon. 3 Birkenstock wearing yuppies with some girls in a beemer had a flat and none of them knew how to change a tire. I would be so ashamed I couldn't leave the house.
Evolution has it's drawbacks. ;-)
To the point, our son told us of an incident he came upon. 3 Birkenstock wearing yuppies with some girls in a beemer had a flat and none of them knew how to change a tire. I would be so ashamed I couldn't leave the house.
Evolution has it's drawbacks. ;-)
it's fine if you can afford to pay a true pro, if you can learn something about his work at the same time_ the next time could be that you can do it yourself, and on my book that's one more step toward the freedom, intended as not mandatorily "needing" the intervention of others_ as ever, learning can be costly in more ways, exactly as freedom_ about "bein' screwed" from a "pro"... well, I've had my share of experiences,ranging from motorcycles, rifles,etc., to the homeworks : well, now I'm rebuilding the inners of my home_ enough said_
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My grandad taught my twin brother and I how to shoot .22's first and taught us the importance of accuracy. We even learned hold over when taking shots at foxes from 200 with a .22. I have now worked my way up to building my own m14 & my twin is into pistols. Being 20 I know what its like to express interest & want to learn but only to be shunned by some of the older gents (not all ofcourse) due to my age. We'll all get there someday, some of us just take different routes.
I think this has been going on since mankind invented the sharpened stick. Someone thought a certain wood would make them a better hunter....
We had a guy at my old agency who bought EVERY gizmo for his pistol or holster setup that came out. He NEVER showed up for range days to practice even though the coaching and ammo was free, and he would have been paid to go practice. His nickname eventually became "Gizmo Joe", and until the day he retired, he barely qualified whenever he would try. Often he would take 2 or 3 trips to the range to qualify.
The agency only allowed one attempt to qualify per range day, and you had to attempt qualification before firing any "warmup" shots. It was a true cold qualification with zero alibi's...either you and your gear worked, or it didn't. So, rather than practicing, Gizmo Joe would just find it easier to buy more junk...it never helped. His score hardly ever went past the 80% required to qualify. Many other officers with none of the junk Gizmo Joe bought would practice, and regularly qualify at 95% and above.
It is not the instrument, it is the musician that makes the music.
We had a guy at my old agency who bought EVERY gizmo for his pistol or holster setup that came out. He NEVER showed up for range days to practice even though the coaching and ammo was free, and he would have been paid to go practice. His nickname eventually became "Gizmo Joe", and until the day he retired, he barely qualified whenever he would try. Often he would take 2 or 3 trips to the range to qualify.
The agency only allowed one attempt to qualify per range day, and you had to attempt qualification before firing any "warmup" shots. It was a true cold qualification with zero alibi's...either you and your gear worked, or it didn't. So, rather than practicing, Gizmo Joe would just find it easier to buy more junk...it never helped. His score hardly ever went past the 80% required to qualify. Many other officers with none of the junk Gizmo Joe bought would practice, and regularly qualify at 95% and above.
It is not the instrument, it is the musician that makes the music.
Don't be so sure. I'll be fully retiring in October at 66 and have been practicing medicine in Arizona for forty years. I do mostly geriatrics and the in last 2 years I've talked politics with all my patients. Out of my 2000 patients only one thought the present government was not corrupt and taking this country in the RIGHT direction. Most of my male patients are shooters and reloaders. I realize I have a biased group, since it's ARIZONA!
Californians, even the elderly, would be a totally different group, but of course they're are all nuts and totally UnAmerican!
Maybe in some corners of these states, kids still start with a home made slingshot, and spend their time looking for the best rocks to shoot. The beginnings of "ballistics 101". I don't think they'll get that out of the video games. Arizona, , Montana, Texas, etc. may have a higher ratio per capita. I think age is the key. Those that remember the old days. I bought several .22s as teaching rifles, and tempt as many of my friends and their kids to come shooting. It's disheartening to hear that some don't want the kids to " learn to play with guns".
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It's just people. Most are ignorant. Capitalism serves to produce goods that will make things easier and easier to help the end user achieve better results regardless of the end user's abilities. That's what sells. If I can have a lawn mower that pulls me, why would I ever want to push one? I'm also going to lust for the riding lawn mower the whole time walking behind mine. Of course, the older generation says "these ungrateful kids don't know what it's like to sweat pushing a mower up hill all day". You see the same thing every year or two in the military. "Motherfucker, when I was a boot I had to -insert inane hazing-filled task here-. You fuckers got it easy". Then he turns to his buddy and says "Every year these guys get worse and worse". Things change. As long as technology progresses, the next generation will have some aspects of life be easier. The technology doesn't change human nature, it just pushes different aspects of it.
Good or bad? I can't call it. If the tech. fails, people could wind up in a hell of a situation. If you hold onto a lifestyle without the technology (Amish), I think you're bound to stay a little ignorant of what is possible. I guess the question is, "What's it worth to you?"
Good or bad? I can't call it. If the tech. fails, people could wind up in a hell of a situation. If you hold onto a lifestyle without the technology (Amish), I think you're bound to stay a little ignorant of what is possible. I guess the question is, "What's it worth to you?"
We live in a world where the quick and easy fix is the norm...as someone says above, don't bother learning how something works, just call in someone who already knows....or better still download the app!
Anything that takes time to learn, practice and master is incompatible with this mentality.
Always think kids should be asked the following question in their school exams: "Why learn to cook when you can buy ready to eat microwave meals at the supermarket?"
Was talking to my shooting buddy a couple of weeks ago and he mentioned that one of his teenage daughter's friends can't use basic cutlery to eat as they have grown up munching pizza, burgers and fries using only their hands! Makes you think when nature can show you plenty of examples of other species working out how to use objects as tools......
We may well have seen the peak of human achievement....it's all downhill from here on in!
Anything that takes time to learn, practice and master is incompatible with this mentality.
Always think kids should be asked the following question in their school exams: "Why learn to cook when you can buy ready to eat microwave meals at the supermarket?"
Was talking to my shooting buddy a couple of weeks ago and he mentioned that one of his teenage daughter's friends can't use basic cutlery to eat as they have grown up munching pizza, burgers and fries using only their hands! Makes you think when nature can show you plenty of examples of other species working out how to use objects as tools......
We may well have seen the peak of human achievement....it's all downhill from here on in!
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What really bothers me is not just in the world of shooting but almost all life activities, is the loss of individual skills.
How many people today know how to use simple hand tools to build what they need? How many, now that we have hand-held GPS devices, even bother to take a good compass and map with them when they go hunting? Rely on Cell/Smart phones for emergency communications?
What do you do when the batteries go dead or you have no place to plug in your power tool?[/QUOTE]
hi this forum made up my mind on joining the site love it very useful. the internet brings a lot of our knowledge together. however being 23 I can agree with seeing the los of the basics but for me grew up loving the stories of Daniel boone and john smith. heck the frontier and other history. learning to hunt and fish to came with it. the love of video games with friends exists but I get restless when I can't hike for a while or at least spend time at the range with one of my rifles.
just typing this to say that there are some who still exist in the younger generations. I guess I'm a mutant hahaha.
How many people today know how to use simple hand tools to build what they need? How many, now that we have hand-held GPS devices, even bother to take a good compass and map with them when they go hunting? Rely on Cell/Smart phones for emergency communications?
What do you do when the batteries go dead or you have no place to plug in your power tool?[/QUOTE]
hi this forum made up my mind on joining the site love it very useful. the internet brings a lot of our knowledge together. however being 23 I can agree with seeing the los of the basics but for me grew up loving the stories of Daniel boone and john smith. heck the frontier and other history. learning to hunt and fish to came with it. the love of video games with friends exists but I get restless when I can't hike for a while or at least spend time at the range with one of my rifles.
just typing this to say that there are some who still exist in the younger generations. I guess I'm a mutant hahaha.
the above ending with quote was posted by DEADSHOT2 earlier in the forum sorry I goofed on the quote.
Use that Love of video games to teach others. I've been a part of a gaming community for 7+ years. Over the summer one of our UK members came to visit me. So of course I took him to the range and let him learn the basics on my Enfield and go from there. Currently he's pursing a firearms license in the UK to shoot more.
Same goes for the younger kids. I'm 24 and my college buddies all were taught to shoot by me. But, their families are different story. Last year one of them brought their younger brother out to our yearly retreat. The kid could ID all of my rifles from video games. And with that inkling of interest I got him shooting (and cleaning all my rifles for "learning"). The guy ate it up and still talks to me about firearms stuff. These are the seeds we need to plant to get the next generation of shooters into the sport.
It is our duty to carry marksmanship to our peers and the next generation. We're it. Make it happen. Invite a newbie to the range.
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Here's my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth. I agree that many people believe that superior gear will be able to make up for the lacking skills in marksmanship, that much is pretty well know. However, when I read the OP's first post the first thing that came to my mind was the advent of the scope itself. How many "old timers" back then condemned the invention of the scope as a toy? Unreliable and a gimmick to make up for poor marksmanship skills? Why, all I need is my iron sigths, they've never failed me! Obviously none of us on here were alive back then but I think it is a fair assumption that a lot of shooters probably felt this way.
As we age we lament the "glory days of yesteryear" when men were men and sheep were scared. "Why, I learned on a 2x power scope, that's all you'll ever need!" "WW2 Russian snipers killed hundreds of Nazi's with a Nagant PU sniper, why would you need anything different!?" It's easy to be nostalgic about the tools that we all grew up on and hold them in high regard, this is typical from generation to generation. All I can say is good luck shooting out to 1000 yards with a PU sniper. Can it be done? Of course! But you will be a lot more accurate and have a higher liklihood of hitting your target with a higher powered scope, handloads and a custom rifle. Times change and technology advances and sometimes we resist change because "I can do it just fine with my stuff!" There's nothing wrong with that but it is not necessarily a sign of weakness in the new generation.
However, to reitterate, you cannot make up for poor marksmanship with gear. If someone is doing that then the OP's concern is correct. However, new technology can make a good shooter that much better. I guess the bottom line is go out and shoot you gear, learn it, love it and learn from your mistakes.
As we age we lament the "glory days of yesteryear" when men were men and sheep were scared. "Why, I learned on a 2x power scope, that's all you'll ever need!" "WW2 Russian snipers killed hundreds of Nazi's with a Nagant PU sniper, why would you need anything different!?" It's easy to be nostalgic about the tools that we all grew up on and hold them in high regard, this is typical from generation to generation. All I can say is good luck shooting out to 1000 yards with a PU sniper. Can it be done? Of course! But you will be a lot more accurate and have a higher liklihood of hitting your target with a higher powered scope, handloads and a custom rifle. Times change and technology advances and sometimes we resist change because "I can do it just fine with my stuff!" There's nothing wrong with that but it is not necessarily a sign of weakness in the new generation.
However, to reitterate, you cannot make up for poor marksmanship with gear. If someone is doing that then the OP's concern is correct. However, new technology can make a good shooter that much better. I guess the bottom line is go out and shoot you gear, learn it, love it and learn from your mistakes.
When I joined SH's predecessor site The Lowlight Directive, I was a shooter relatively new to precision. I thought that a fresh viewpoint would be an asset, and did a bunch of narratives based on how the learning process was proceeding.
Some time later, I figured I had enough under my belt to begin prognosticating about the marksmanship process. A series of articles appeared here, under the mantra Black Thoughts. It was well received and much studied. I still believe it was useful in an overall positive way.
I now recognize that I was premature, and may still be, in believing I had definitive answers to the seminal questions regarding marksmanship. Had I chosen to write that series today, a whole lot of what I and my readers took for Gospel then would be different.
The lesson here is that one can follow one direction at one stage of one's marksmanship skills evolution, take another as skills mature further, keep adding/subtracting from one's skillset, and still be right then, wrong then, and still not get it completely right.
I think that's because we are talking about a system. Change one component, and it affects how the others interact with it. Additionally, goals are also in continual flux as we evolve our interests.
The big mistake is in believing that only one road leads to this particular Rome, and that putting the bulk of one's effort into only one aspect, like the rifle, or the ammunition, is going to bring your particular ship uneventfully to the safest harbor.
Seen as a minefield, most of the path is safe, but there are those occasional disappointments awaiting us out there. Getting to the other side only enlarges the view, and none of those minefields ends up at a single point, so the viewpoint can end up being seen from many perspectives.
If this inspires a sense of insecurity, I advise switching to golf; but the truth is, you'll not find an easy path there, either (and you'll be joining that mass of society who think a rifle range is a horrible waste of an excellent golf course). At least it's not going to be as loud.
So accept that there are many, many ways to get that fire onto the target, and that each among us is entitled to find their own way, regardless of whether or not they can make our specific methods work for them. The true experimenter finds many more ways not to do a thing right than ways that produce stellar returns. It's not a loss, it's another point of data on the overall chart; and anyone who seriously believes in perfection in this pursuit is gonna be a lot of fun to get together with for a few beers.
Simply consider the magnitudes. For most 1000yd capable chamberings, the difference in elevation adjustment between a hit at 100yd and one at 1000yd is about 30MOA. Consider that we are talking about a half of a degree in angular displacement. For a smoothbore, that's not even an option; for a precision LR match rifle, it can be a chore, but misses tend to be outnumbered by hits. One shooter believes the other is performing magic, while the other pities the first's limited expectations. But each can still become a master of their own elements.
Greg
Some time later, I figured I had enough under my belt to begin prognosticating about the marksmanship process. A series of articles appeared here, under the mantra Black Thoughts. It was well received and much studied. I still believe it was useful in an overall positive way.
I now recognize that I was premature, and may still be, in believing I had definitive answers to the seminal questions regarding marksmanship. Had I chosen to write that series today, a whole lot of what I and my readers took for Gospel then would be different.
The lesson here is that one can follow one direction at one stage of one's marksmanship skills evolution, take another as skills mature further, keep adding/subtracting from one's skillset, and still be right then, wrong then, and still not get it completely right.
I think that's because we are talking about a system. Change one component, and it affects how the others interact with it. Additionally, goals are also in continual flux as we evolve our interests.
The big mistake is in believing that only one road leads to this particular Rome, and that putting the bulk of one's effort into only one aspect, like the rifle, or the ammunition, is going to bring your particular ship uneventfully to the safest harbor.
Seen as a minefield, most of the path is safe, but there are those occasional disappointments awaiting us out there. Getting to the other side only enlarges the view, and none of those minefields ends up at a single point, so the viewpoint can end up being seen from many perspectives.
If this inspires a sense of insecurity, I advise switching to golf; but the truth is, you'll not find an easy path there, either (and you'll be joining that mass of society who think a rifle range is a horrible waste of an excellent golf course). At least it's not going to be as loud.
So accept that there are many, many ways to get that fire onto the target, and that each among us is entitled to find their own way, regardless of whether or not they can make our specific methods work for them. The true experimenter finds many more ways not to do a thing right than ways that produce stellar returns. It's not a loss, it's another point of data on the overall chart; and anyone who seriously believes in perfection in this pursuit is gonna be a lot of fun to get together with for a few beers.
Simply consider the magnitudes. For most 1000yd capable chamberings, the difference in elevation adjustment between a hit at 100yd and one at 1000yd is about 30MOA. Consider that we are talking about a half of a degree in angular displacement. For a smoothbore, that's not even an option; for a precision LR match rifle, it can be a chore, but misses tend to be outnumbered by hits. One shooter believes the other is performing magic, while the other pities the first's limited expectations. But each can still become a master of their own elements.
Greg
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What, me worry? I am actually encouraged each year when I see the USAMU's SAFS sell out to a crowd of about 700 folks who do want to learn how to shoot.
I don't bother griping about "young" people. I figure that eventually they'll learn, just like I did. Of course today, damn near everyone is "young" when compared to me
I agree with hrfunk. Today everyone wants to go out and buy a super rifle from a big name "Custom Shop" then expect it to perform magic at 1k or more.
Nobody wants to start out with a single shot Stevens "Military Trainer" in .22LR and learn how to shoot first. Not as cool I guess.
I got you beat by a couple of years and feel the same way.
There are still a lot of great young people in our country, not as great a percentage as there use to be, but they are still out there. I feel sorry for kids coming up now, those that have been bitten by the shooting bug. The cost and availability of ammo would have made it very hard on me when I was their age. 22lr is almost impossible to find, save the expensive match ammo, so much so, that you can sometimes shoot center fire cheaper. Off the shelf, lower priced Guns and ammunition are generally more accurate than those available when I was a kid, however; the places to shoot and cost of ammo is keeping a lot of young people away. I don't want to get started on the political climate, but just for example: when I was a kid I'd go hunting all the time, with my 22 rifle. Now days if a 11-12 year old boy was walking down a road with a rifle and his dog, the sheriff would respond with a SWAT team...... It's incumbent on all of us to help and encourage our (America's) young generation when it comes to the joy of shooting. If we don't, future generations won't be shooting.
It saddens me to say it but I believe we are past the point. People are too busy with their Ipads, Iphones, computer games and such.(some even have jobs) Was at a bud's in his shop/garage and his wife sent him a text from the living room! ;-)
Power to those that can afford to spend time bringing up the next gen of shooters. I'm glad I was lucky enough to have been raised with the opportunity to have the freedom.
The few youngsters that have shown me an interest have never panned out. Offered guns, ammo and range fees. Guess I lost out to the xbox ;-(
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I am doing my part by taking my boy shooting when ever possible and at the age of 9 he loves it and can't get enough of it. He inherited a little semi-auto rifle .22 from his grandpa and he can shoot the wings of a bumble bee, haha.
Yep, training the urchins is mandatory. Hopefully some of their friends will tag along!
I'm an "old" guy with 2 sons right at your age, and I am very impressed with your response. all of their friends want to go shooting with us and then most get disappointed they aren't marky mark lol my younger son who is your age is just getting into it and does well and last weekend was making hits out to 875 when the old guy called the wind correct and he got everything correct. which isn't every time on either. my older son is 19 and has shot in a few matches and does well if practiced up and in the right frame of mind.
keep at it and take all the advise you get and sort out the BS from it, cause going to get some of that and see if can't find someone to help ya through it and to push you. don't worry about that 300 dollar rifle either, by the time you can out shoot it will be ready for the next better one.
good luck in all and hope to see you at one of the matches. ask around on here might be able to hook up with someone.
ok guys I'm going to throw in my 2 cents. I don't think it's the new generation so much as society. we've heard the same thing about every new generation. I heard it when I was the young one. and it doesn't really matter what gizmo's they buy and what trigger you have, that just makes it a little easier, you still have to fire the damn thing. I know my biggest equipment failure is the loose screw behind the trigger. form, wind, reloading and all that takes experience and practice. till have it won't be good. I agree a lot of the youngsters don't want to put in the time but that is no different than when I was a kid.
There are skilled and unskilled shooters in all age brackets. A great place to see this is the range the weekend before hunting season. So, I am not worried. I do my best to help those that want help, and mind my business when it comes to people who really don't want help.
I'll leave it at that and also leave a little nugget of awesome about the Houston Warehouse Project: Secrets of the Houston Warehouse
I'll leave it at that and also leave a little nugget of awesome about the Houston Warehouse Project: Secrets of the Houston Warehouse
Beanie Babies
I think a wise person might seek out some advice without any they might end up with a 300H&H or a 308 Norma With a Bushnell Sportview and then be disapointed about their ammunition cost lack of a good scope and so a little advice make a better first time shooter
Have another shot... good pun I'll leave it at that
I think a wise person might seek out some advice without any they might end up with a 300H&H or a 308 Norma With a Bushnell Sportview and then be disapointed about their ammunition cost lack of a good scope and so a little advice make a better first time shooter
Have another shot... good pun I'll leave it at that
