Is HBN worth the effort or is it snake oil?

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  • Jul 10, 2012
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    Moly was always too much effort with not enough return. Now that HBN has been around a while is there a general consensus on realized benefits? HBN was touted to extend barrel life, lower SD, increase BC, no cold bore offset. All with no downside. Are these true or myth?
     
    I use the Tubb HBN kit with my 300 WM. I’m no expert, but my rifle rifle seems to group better and the cold bore shots seem to group with the rest. Can’t comment on barrel life since I have a new barrel on it. Hope that helps.

    Mike
     
    My cold bore shots have been more consistent with it. The barrel seems to stay cleaner and easier to clean. As for longer barrel life, I don't think that's gonna happen. I wish I could have done a side by side comparison with and without.
     
    I have a friend that's a very competitive BR shooter and he swore by Moly and recently HBN bullets. I saw his reloads during his new barrel load work up and the bullets looked plain so I asked him - what gives - you running naked bullets now? He said, "Yeah, I've thrown all that sh!t away". That answers the question for me...
     
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    That is about where I'm having the challenge with it. I keep asking myself if the additional step really worth it. As bench rest guys have sighters to shoot cold bore is not really important. I'm about to put another barrel on the kids rifle. I'm thinking about going no HBN on that barrel and compare it to mine with the HBN. But I'm looking to get away from it on the next barrel.
     
    ive ran HBN twice and it did none of what it claims...cold bore was still cold bore barrel life was still barrel life nothing special.

    now where HBN does shine is if your looking for less pressure with your current load or looking for more speed without a bunch more pressure...i do not use it because im lazy...its not hard to apply and a vibratory tumbler works best.
     
    I shoot factory loads in the guns that get the most use so I'm not gonna stop that just to add HBN but for the guns I pretend I am capable with at ELR might be worth trying. If just the lowering of SD is true it would be worth it in that case...

    @Huskydriver, don't you need to add another step to the process?
     
    These are my experiences with HBn:
    • HBn does eventually coat most of the bore, especially toward the front half the barrel.
    • On a good barrel, pretty much eliminated copper fouling.
    • Only takes a couple rounds after cleaning for a barrel to shoot back in.
    • Cleaning is basically only wiping out the carbon.
    • Throat still firecracks. Will NOT extend usable barrel life.
    YMMV
     
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    I shoot factory loads in the guns that get the most use so I'm not gonna stop that just to add HBN but for the guns I pretend I am capable with at ELR might be worth trying. If just the lowering of SD is true it would be worth it in that case...

    @Huskydriver, don't you need to add another step to the process?

    it does not lower ESs or SDs and i agree with most of what @buffybuster said.
     
    Mostly interested in getting the cold bore shot inside the group at 600 plus.

    How much speed can you expect to gain if you HBN coat your bullets, use a seasoned barrel, and load higher to get close to pressure max? For 30-06 or 308.

    Are we talking 50 or 150 fps?
     
    Thanks for the post, that is helpful.

    So am i correct that the main benefit is to get the cold bore shot inside the group in a (long range) hunting rifle, or for competitions where sighters are not allowed, like ELR?

    yes, I’ve noticed my cold bore shots going into the group, but more than that the velocity is consistent, which for the match I shoot (NF ELR) is critical.
     
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    yes, I’ve noticed my cold bore shots going into the group, but more than that the velocity is consistent, which for the match I shoot (NF ELR) is critical.

    That is great news, and will give me a lot more confidence taking longer shots while hunting. I sometimes see the occasional 15-25 fps lower speed on cold bore shots, but it is not consistent. Sometimes lower, sometimes higher than expected.

    Sorry for the million questions, but: What ES and SD are you getting now? [And is this for a 5 shot group during load development, or a whole box of ammo with 50 cartridges. That obviously makes quite a difference, especially to ES.]

    I am getting SD between 7.5 and 10 fps, but ES can be anything from 22 (good enough, i think) all the way up to 32 fps (not so great), but it is usually just two or three wild shots out of 50.
     
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    That is great news, and will give me a lot more confidence taking longer shots while hunting.

    What ES and SD are you getting? [And is this for a 5 shot group during load development, or a whole box of ammo with 50 cartridges. That obviously makes quite a difference.]

    I've stopped looking at SDs much, and focus more on actual vertical spread past 1K as there are more factors there (e.g., BC variance), but last work I did with 6xc and a labradar was 26 shots and SD of 4.8.
     
    Mostly interested in getting the cold bore shot inside the group at 600 plus.

    How much speed can you expect to gain if you HBN coat your bullets, use a seasoned barrel, and load higher to get close to pressure max? For 30-06 or 308.

    Are we talking 50 or 150 fps?

    ive played with HBN a couple of times...the most recent was in a brux barrel chambered in 6BRX...it took a full grain more varget to get to the same 2975ish than with a bare bullet...yes in the same barrel...as far as cold bore..barrel life..producing better ESs/SDs i never seen enough of a difference to convince me to keep using it plus it just added another step to my reloading.
     
    ive played with HBN a couple of times...the most recent was in a brux barrel chambered in 6BRX...it took a full grain more varget to get to the same 2975ish than with a bare bullet...yes in the same barrel...as far as cold bore..barrel life..producing better ESs/SDs i never seen enough of a difference to convince me to keep using it plus it just added another step to my reloading.

    That's pretty much my experience too. I didn't see any more barrel life and it just added more steps to my reloading process.
     
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    Fair point! Simple and easy has its attraction. Time is valuable. I am running such an experiment to see what reloading steps i can cut out, and how much does that affects my results.

    This is how far i got: The brass came from five discounted ($28) boxes of Berger - Lapua factory ammo, no neck turning, weighed them and culled two cases which were 2 grain heavier than the rest, FL sized via the Whidden non-bushing die (yep it has a button and concentricity is very good), trim to length every second reload, and annealed when i feel like it (about every 2 or 3 firings), loading cheap unsorted 140 gn Hornady ELD-M bullets, cases are tumbled before sizing and after to remove Imperial lube. Primer pockets were not squared. Flash holes were not touched. Completely unmolested brass.

    Dry lube on the bullets (i previously struggled with “cold weld”), and then shoot it. This is real quick to load. Shoots 1/2” five shot groups and gets SD around 9-11 fps. My very best full OCD reloads using top quality kit got 0.3” to 0.45” five shot groups at 100. Some of this might well be due to my own limitations as a shooter. For practice, 0.5” groups are good enough for me! Haven’t used the fully prepped brass in 4 months.

    Keeping the cold bore shot “in the group” would be nice in a hunting situation, because where i hunt i cannot always fire a shot into a backstop before i get on to the area. Therefore the question. Maybe just limit HBN to my favorite hunting rig.

    But does it really work?
     
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    @NamibHunter so try this if your this interested in the HBN....find a load with HBN...shoot a cold clean bore group then clean your barrel real good and shoot a cold clean bore group with bare bullets that will tell you what you need to know...if i remember correctly clean the barrel then run a few patches of alcohol to neutralize the HBN.
     
    I would think that if Tubb is using it there must be something to it, but I’ve always felt that since the rifling actually cuts into the jacket when the bullet is fired putting a coating on the bullet is kind of pointless. Whatever efficacy comes from it must because of what is left in the barrel rather than what is on one bullet... Total speculation though. I’ve never messed with it.
     
    Shooters are constantly looking for things magical, whether cases, bullets, powders, etc.. In this case, for every success there is one dissenter. When I got into LR shooting, I was introduced to moly, I moly'd everything except 223 bullets. A giant time suck. Did it work? We make things we want to work work. Looking back, 50-50 here, I do recall running some loads hotter than they ever needed to be.
    I tried coated dtacs, pleased with the results, but those things are messy. I tried my hand at coating my own and got an education real quick on just how clean you want them after the process. After my hbn fiasco, I will no longer rely on coatings, and my life is a lot simpler.
    I suggest you run your own test, hbn can be cleaned from your barrel if you are not happy with the results and going back is easy. Moly was a different story.
     
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    @NamibHunter so try this if your this interested in the HBN....find a load with HBN...shoot a cold clean bore group then clean your barrel real good and shoot a cold clean bore group with bare bullets that will tell you what you need to know...if i remember correctly clean the barrel then run a few patches of alcohol to neutralize the HBN.

    One group won't tell you very much, you need to shoot a statistically relevant sample size for the improvement you are trying to measure.

     
    One group won't tell you very much, you need to shoot a statistically relevant sample size for the improvement you are trying to measure.


    while i do agree to a point we are talking about cold bore staying in the group not group size so this will give him an idea.
     
    while i do agree to a point we are talking about cold bore staying in the group not group size so this will give him an idea.

    But we are looking to improve the cold bore, which means reducing it's distance from the center of the group. That distance still requires statistical analysis to verify reduction, as does just about anything we try to improve in shooting.

    Yes you can make reasonable observations on very large change from a small sample size, (e.g., keyholes from instability) but much of what we do is trying to get from .5 to .3, which takes much more work to verify. The issue with TBN is that it's one of those products thats benefits is difficult to measure without a lot of rounds and precise measurement.

    I haven't done a good job measuring TBN improvement myself which is why with 6 barrels worth of shooting going between bare and coated loads in 6xc and 7saum I don't have any helpful data to share on this other than my general observation that it helps me.
     
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    Moly was always too much effort with not enough return. Now that HBN has been around a while is there a general consensus on realized benefits? HBN was touted to extend barrel life, lower SD, increase BC, no cold bore offset. All with no downside. Are these true or myth?

    It is snake oil. I have used it in my 6XC barrels and it worked very well but not better than naked/uncoated bullets.

    Cold bore shot accuracy is not magically changed due to a bullet coating.
     
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    Have now loaded 300 HBN coated 145 Matchburner bullets. Here are the good and the bad things that i have observed:

    1) Pressure and speed is reduced significantly compared to naked bullets if powder charge is kept the same. Speed goes down from 2750 to 2695, so by about 55 fps. Way outside the node, and you really have to add more powder to stay inside the node.

    2) Need to load about 0.6 gn more H4350 to get back to 2750 fps. Once back at the prior speed, group size is about the same as before. I could not see an improvement in group size. Neither did it get any worse. In this scenario, brass will last significantly longer, and this is a useful cost saving. You will spend slightly more on powder, but this is insignificant.

    3) Once back at the prior speed, pressure is clearly lower, primers are less flat, and the cases have soot down to the shoulder-body junction:

    ED2C9592-A766-46C0-9532-068B218614D3.jpeg


    This is usually what you see with a starting load from the load manual. Primer radius is also more pronounced.

    4) At the prior speed (and lower pressure), the carbon on the neck and shoulder is inconsistent, looks like inconsistent combustion. Some stop at the neck-shoulder junction, some go way down on the shoulder:

    46E47C27-679F-44DA-A4BC-316C2AA3906C.jpeg


    Is this a problem, SD was 7.3 fps for the 15 rounds i recorded before the Labradar battery died. Surprisingly good. One outlier (very sooty case) that was 15 fps lower than average, the rest were all very close (SD ends up at 5.7 fps if i delete the ‘outlier’).

    5) If i load higher, the soot pattern on the case goes back to normal, and a sine wave pattern appears on the neck. Shoots just as well at this “higher node”. Might end up as a compressed load, and then you need to settle the powder before seating the bullets. That adds one more reloading step.

    6) Clearly less copper fouling than before. I now clean about every 150-200 rounds now. It is mostly carbon that comes out. Takes very few rounds (2-5) to get the cleaned barrel back to normal/prior speed.

    7) Bullets coated in different batches come out looking a little different. Loaded a batch of 100 that came from two different tumbling sessions, and they looked different, SD went up from 7-8 range (prior batch) to 14 fps. Seems one group of bullets was 15 - 18 fps slower than the other. I think this is enough to drop out of the node.

    8) If you forget to take bullets out of the plastic bottle, then after a few days the bullets show some green/black corrosion. Bad idea!

    I think HBN works well enough and is simple enough to apply.

    You can load higher, but load manuals become fairly useless. Sufficient care and attention is required, and if you don’t know how to read pressure signs, you really should avoid HBN until you have gained much more experience. Not for beginners.

    It is not a fix for all problems, but if you are chasing a higher node and hitting pressure problems, it can be useful.

    Cold bore shot at 600 feels like it is a little better than before, but it is too early to tell. Have checked it 6x now, and speed for the cold bore shot is often within 10-15 of the average. It was worse before, usually 15-25 fps lower.
     
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    I've used all the coatings with success. The problem with coatings is it's another variable. Inevitably you do a bad batch, not clean enough, humidity, etc. I got tired of the time hBN took, and it did some weird stuff sometimes. Best process I ever found was the water method with moly or WS2. Very clean and consistent. I still have some old loaded rounds from a couple years ago that I broke out the other day, and they still shot great. Literally took velocity that I had written on box, and shot a nice 10 shot group off schmedium bag and tripod sitting at 600 yds. I only mention that as some want to mitigate potential neck to bullet welding issues and coating can help, but....that's a whole other discussion. Ultimately, I just didn't want to mess with it, and haven't in years. I keep carbon in the necks, and life is good. I clean every 250-300 rounds on my 6mm's primarily for carbon/throat maintenance.

    The less variables the better in my opinion.
     
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