Rifle Scopes Is the ATACR 1-8 really worth two Razor 1-6's?

[JWG]

I don’t really post here, however.....

I personally have had four (4) 1-6x Razor Gen II’s fail on work rifles between 2,700 and 3,500 rounds. Three were catastrophic fails. I’ve used a couple dozen, and around 50% have had intermittent zero shifts of .2-.4 mil (same lot of ammo for zero check), incorrect adjustments, etc.

This has lasted over 30k rounds without losing zero, but doesn’t adjust in .2 mils per click...
''


In any case, this 1-8x ATACR has just over 70k rounds on it-




There’s more than 120k rounds on these four NF 1-8x’s and None have ever had to be rezeroed except for barrel replacements.





As for eyebox, reticle, speed, etc. A whole lot of shooting has been on a timer and scored, and there is no statistical difference between the NX8/ATACR and the Razor, Kahles, Sig Tango 6, Swaro Z6, etc. Some of them are more “comfortable” to be behind maybe, but actual performance differences are unnoticeable. What is noticeable is differences in reliability, durability, longevity, and correct function. There is no comparison in that regard. As for dialing: I and those I’m around dial LPV’s for distance all the time. If you’re trying to hit a realistic sized target (8-10”) at distance, dialing elevation and holding wind is the best way to hit it- just like with more powerful scopes.


Though I’m sure some will start nonsense over this post, this is not a bash on the Razor or any other scope. It’s simply results from using and testing LPV’s heavily. In the end- reliability, durability and correct function are the most important things with optics to me. So yes, the ATACR/NX8 are worth it.

Thanks. I wasnt going to drag anyone into it. Derp is

And of course, after I thought I made up my mind, you hit me with this.
This is the same reason why I've never commited to buying a complete Larue rifle. Everytime I start feeling confident, something happens, [like they change their barrel manufacturers] and the horror stories start coming out....

Is that first pic of a NX8?
I've heard so many good things about the Razor's and they seem so nice in person. Do you know why your experiences aren't echoed as much on the internet? I believe you, but there seems to be plenty of people with high round counts on Razors in the wild that still love theirs.
I'm concerned because I'm very hard on my gear, and I may consider using this optic I purchase [whichever it may be] on a duty rifle if I like it enough.

The gentleman who responded to you is a bit more detail oriented than many. The shifts and group increases he noted with the Razors may or may not be attributed to other factors, the optic sold or traded off, etc. by others. That said, they matter. They matter to people like him, and people like myself.



The image on 8x with my NX8 is a bit darker in low light, for sure, but you have a FFP optic and can dial it down to 4-6x if needed just fine.

 

[JWG]

This is hilarious and the first I've heard. I have Gen1, and Gen2 razors both 1-6 and 4.5-27 for many years. Havent experienced this with any of them or heard anyone with this issue.

I am not you, so I won't tell you what you have or have not experienced. Knowledge has been presented to you, however, and you are free to decide what to do with it. Happy shooting.

 

[Bakwa]

The gentleman who responded to you is a bit more detail oriented than many. The shifts and group increases he noted with the Razors may or may not be attributed to other factors, the optic sold or traded off, etc. by others. That said, they matter. They matter to people like him, and people like myself.

The image on 8x with my NX8 is a bit darker in low light, for sure, but you have a FFP optic and can dial it down to 4-6x if needed just fine.

I gathered that with his response to my inquiry of his findings.

Even though, his anal retentive standards are a bit much for run-n-gun comps and fast action shots, I've still always enjoyed being as precise as possible with my optics. That, and there is a small chance that I may find myself in a position at work next year where I'll be needing to source my own DMR type of optic to set up a carbine. Without knowing what this particular group uses for ammo until I get there, I don't know how picky I should be with this next optic purchase I make. My dream was to field my next RNG designated optic for a few comps and after building confidence in it, use that as a potential carbine optic for more precise shots at work. But maybe I'm expecting too much out of one optic. Perhaps I should just get a <$1500 1-4 or 1-6 [comp optic] for now, and drop the big money on a >$2000 1-8 or 2.5-10 for what I'm looking at down the road...

I still have until the end of this month before my decision becomes pressing as the RBGC RNG isn't until the end of Aug, so that will still give me 2ish months of quality training time on whatever I decide. before the next comp.

 

[sevenplagues]

I'll address your question from a direction that no one else has. Actual Run N Gun matches. I've been doing RnG's for several years and have several match wins under my belt, most recently the Twilight Biathlon RnG in Pawnee, OK last month.

View attachment 7088958


For all the RnG's I've ever competed in, I've never felt "underpowered" with a 1-6x. Typically, targets are 300 yards and in, and typically no smaller than around 2.5-3 MOA. I've encountered shots out to 500 yds, but always on large IPSC or B/C steel silhouettes. In other words, (specifically at RnG matches), the accuracy requirements aren't especially difficult. The challenge is still maintaining an ability to maintain "combat accuracy" after you've been running for several miles, negotiated multiple obstacles (rope climbs, river crossings, etc), and your gear is absolutely covered in mud.

View attachment 7088956

View attachment 7088957

I've used the Razor, Leupold Mk 6, Leupold VX6 Multigun 1-6, and Kahles K16i in matches. I've also got some decent trigger time behind the NX8, but not the ATACR 1-8.

I will always tend towards lighter weight. I'm flat-out not interested in running 4 (or 15) miles with a 22oz optic. The NX8 was initially attractive, but I quickly ruled it out due to the restricted eye box, which was especially noticeable in challenging shooting positions like a VTAC board, and the coarse aiming point. I'd much rather have the finer aiming point of the Razor or the MK6.

I've personally settled on the MK6 as my preferred RnG optic. It's got all the features I want including (IMHO) a best-in-class reticle. I was initially skeptical of FFP in a LPVO, but I've grown to absolutely love it. For those who still prefer FFP, I think the Kahles K16i is top dog. All that being said, the Razor is an absolutely fantastic scope, it's what I used to bring home my first ever major match win, and I wouldn't hesitate to run it if my MK6 somehow shit the bed. (And for those who are ballin' on a budget, the Steiner P4Xi is your huckleberry, hands down).

The ATACR is not under consideration for me due to the weight, the size, and the cost. While it weighs about the same as the Razor, both are heavier than I prefer in a perfect world. It's also a big/long optic. More bulk tends to get hung up on obstacles, tangled in slings, etc. Finally, it's really expensive. That isn't a specific deterrent for me (all my gear is top shelf, buy once cry once) but the amount of abuse that gets heaped on gear during RnG's is pretty much unprecedented outside of actual war, and I get a bit uneasy doing such willful damage to a $2500 scope. There are plenty of other options in the $1500 range that are just as "capable" and as a working man, that's a much more palatable level of risk for me in what essentially amounts to a weekend hobby (even though it more or less rules my life and social calendar haha).

Hope to see you at a match this summer! I'll be at the NC Gun Run, probably the Pawnee Summer 10k, and possibly the RBGC match.

Just how restrictive is the eye-box?

 

[ClangClang]

Just how restrictive is the eye-box?

I spent a single day with the NX8 at the range last summer doing T&E, so I felt comfortable enough to say that I didn't really think it was a good choice for my own purposes, but my memory is definitely hazy. If I had to quantify the "generousness" of the eye box, I would rate the following scopes on a 1-10 scale, where 10 is best.

Razor - 10
K16i - 10
MK6 - 8.5
Viper PST 1-6 - 9
P4Xi - 9
NX8 - 7.5
MK5 5-25 - 6 (For comparison only. Obviously it's a totally different class of scope)

My personal opinion on the NX8 is that I think it's perfect as a DMR style optic on a *real* fighting rifle, e.g. something you would take to Afghanistan, where 80% of your work will be at medium range (100-600 yards) engaging man size targets. If you anticipate a higher percentage of shots outside that range, or at smaller targets, then you would be better served by something else. For RnG matches (and most of the 2gun/3gun matches I've shot) you really benefit from a finer aiming point when trying to hit 12" gongs at 400" yards.

 

[Burdy]

I spent a single day with the NX8 at the range last summer doing T&E, so I felt comfortable enough to say that I didn't really think it was a good choice for my own purposes, but my memory is definitely hazy. If I had to quantify the "generousness" of the eye box, I would rate the following scopes on a 1-10 scale, where 10 is best.

Razor - 10
K16i - 10
MK6 - 8.5
Viper PST 1-6 - 9
P4Xi - 9
NX8 - 7.5
MK5 5-25 - 6 (For comparison only. Obviously it's a totally different class of scope)

My personal opinion on the NX8 is that I think it's perfect as a DMR style optic on a *real* fighting rifle, e.g. something you would take to Afghanistan, where 80% of your work will be at medium range (100-600 yards) engaging man size targets. If you anticipate a higher percentage of shots outside that range, or at smaller targets, then you would be better served by something else. For RnG matches (and most of the 2gun/3gun matches I've shot) you really benefit from a finer aiming point when trying to hit 12" gongs at 400" yards.

Vudu 1-6 is probably 8.5, just to add to your chart which looks absolutely correct except for the fact that i've never looked through the PST.

 

[DOA]

I'm not going to name drop as to who said it because they don't want to be involved in the he said/she said shenanigans that the discussion would (already has) turned into. Someone asked me a question, and I answered it, and I don't plan to elaborate further. If that frustrates, then apologies.

Your not going to name drop but are perfectly willing to trash a well known company over over something you heard someone say. Sounds like internet trolling to me.

 

[padom]

I am not you, so I won't tell you what you have or have not experienced. Knowledge has been presented to you, however, and you are free to decide what to do with it. Happy shooting.

Knowledge has been presented to me?? Lmfao. You hearing from some shooters that this happens is knowledge? Ok bud. I have 15k+ through mine in rain, mud, cold, hot, thrown in the truck, on the ground, etc., switched between multiple rifles in a Geissele mount. No issues here. But thanks for your "knowledge"

 

[WATERWALKER]

Not to add to the confusion, but what about the Trijicon AccuPower 1-8? I had a chance to put my hands on it at a shoot & it looks / feels great.

The guy shooting said optic performed very well. I didn’t get a chance to shoot it, but it’s got me kind of interested in another LPVO.

 

[sevenplagues]

Your not going to name drop but are perfectly willing to trash a well known company over over something you heard someone say. Sounds like internet trolling to me.

Take it easy, we dont need to badger people. All data needs to be considered to determine relevance.

 

[sevenplagues]

Not to add to the confusion, but what about the Trijicon AccuPower 1-8? I had a chance to put my hands on it at a shoot & it looks / feels great.

The guy shooting said optic performed very well. I didn’t get a chance to shoot it, but it’s got me kind of interested in another LPVO.

I wasn't particularly impressed with that optic to be honest. I think I'd rather look at their VCOG (personally)

 

[JWG]

Your not going to name drop but are perfectly willing to trash a well known company over over something you heard someone say. Sounds like internet trolling to me.

Noone trashed anyone. Facts were stated. I personally like Vortex, and the people who work for them. They're a good company and good people. Nor am I badgered by your comment. The OP asked a question, I provided an answer, and then someone came and expounded on my answer with data. It just "is what it is". If you disagree/don't like it, whatever, then buy a Vortex Razor HD2 and call it a day. I don't have anything to say to you about it if you do. Enjoy your scope.

 

[Vereor]

Not to add to the confusion, but what about the Trijicon AccuPower 1-8? I had a chance to put my hands on it at a shoot & it looks / feels great.

I have used/seen used 13 with more than 3k rounds apiece. 3 have had their reticles rotate 45 degrees. Two right around 2,500-3,000 rounds of 5.56, and one just over 14,000 rounds with much abuse.

I wasn't particularly impressed with that optic to be honest. I think I'd rather look at their VCOG (personally)

Have used VCOG’s heavily. A couple have had zero retention issues, all have had inconsistent and inaccurate adjustments. They have a relatively tight eyebox, narrow FOV in actual use, the reticle illumination is not daylight usable, and getting the focus correct so that the reticle is sharp and close range both eyes open shooting is good- is almost impossible. If one is good, the other is bad.

 

[sevenplagues]

I have used/seen used 13 with more than 3k rounds apiece. 3 have had their reticles rotate 45 degrees. Two right around 2,500-3,000 rounds of 5.56, and one just over 14,000 rounds with much abuse.





Have used VCOG’s heavily. A couple have had zero retention issues, all have had inconsistent and inaccurate adjustments. They have a relatively tight eyebox, narrow FOV in actual use, the reticle illumination is not daylight usable, and getting the focus correct so that the reticle is sharp and close range both eyes open shooting is good- is almost impossible. If one is good, the other is bad.

Dang! I thought that optic had a decent rep, guess I was wrong!
I've ran a bunch of their ACOG's without issue. I've had a few from their ACCUPOINT series line and wasn't particularly impressed with them. I can defintely say I would ake an NX8 over the Trijicon and the Mark 6
I did enjoy shooting the RAZOR 1-6 but would prefer something in FFP.
I have no experience with KAHLES 1-6.

I still say save up for the ATACR lol

 

[WATERWALKER]

I have used/seen used 13 with more than 3k rounds apiece. 3 have had their reticles rotate 45 degrees. Two right around 2,500-3,000 rounds of 5.56, and one just over 14,000 rounds with much abuse.

I was thinking of pulling my T1 & going back to a LPVO. All the Trijicon products I’ve used in the past have been solid, so this review is disheartening. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[stilesg57]

If I had to quantify the "generousness" of the eye box, I would rate the following scopes on a 1-10 scale, where 10 is best.

Razor - 10
......

P4Xi - 9

OUCH. Haven’t been behind a Razor 1-6 but always heard it’s the gold standard for eyebox. Have the Steiner on my 3gun rifle currently and every now and then I get the urge to upgrade to the Razor but man it’s hard to justify spending 3x as much — another $800 — and adding 50% more weight for ~10% better eyebox and 2x more mag on top. That’s a lot of ammo and range fees.

Thanks for the perspective!

 

[Mr. Z]

OUCH. Haven’t been behind a Razor 1-6 but always heard it’s the gold standard for eyebox. Have the Steiner on my 3gun rifle currently and every now and then I get the urge to upgrade to the Razor but man it’s hard to justify spending 3x as much — another $800 — and adding 50% more weight for ~10% better eyebox and 2x more mag on top. That’s a lot of ammo and range fees.

Thanks for the perspective!

Going rate in the PX for looks new used gen ii 1-6 is about $825 with an ok mount shipped. Just sold one of mine a week ago.

 

[stilesg57]

Going rate in the PX for looks new used gen ii 1-6 is about $825 with an ok mount shipped. Just sold one of mine a week ago.

Used opens up a whole different range of course. Used Steiners are less than the ~$450 I paid for mine new too.

Also I meant the new light weight “E” Razors that are $1400. The old ones weigh ANOTHER quarter pound more.

 

[USMC_JA]

Used opens up a whole different range of course. Used Steiners are less than the ~$450 I paid for mine new too.

Also I meant the new light weight “E” Razors that are $1400. The old ones weigh ANOTHER quarter pound more.

I have an E razor. But the weight difference is 4 oz. Vortex changed the materials for some of the internal fasteners is my understanding. Nothing else.

I get that oz = pounds = pain. But 4 oz ain't much.

 

[stilesg57]

I had the original in my head with the half pound comment, sorry (getting prices and weights confused). What’s the E work out to, like 22oz? I’d personally put that at my upper limit for a LPVO on a gaming gun. Here’s the P4Xi the day I mounted it:

 

[Burdy]

My Kahles K16i IN the mount is 21.7 ounces.

 

[Bakwa]

I know it's more like the ATACR, but has anyone peered through a Steiner M8Xi 1-8x24? I just found out I can get one of those for ~$2000 on a kind of pro deal. Because it's part of their military series, one would think it's supposed to hold up like NF's do. But then again, I though the Razor's were indisputably rock solid under strong field conditions until I started this thread.

 

[sevenplagues]

My Kahles K16i IN the mount is 21.7 ounces.

Is the KAHLES a FFP optic?

 

[Burdy]

Is the KAHLES a FFP optic?

No but neither is the Razor.

 

[sevenplagues]

No but neither is the Razor.

I know that. I dont have any particular interest in the Razor anyway.

 

[MK20]

I personally like the steiners a bunch. If most of your work is going to be inside 400 I would look at the p4xi but I now have to check out that steiner 1-8. I just got a quick look through an atacr the other day and it looked pretty nice with a good eye box

 

[Bakwa]

I personally like the steiners a bunch. If most of your work is going to be inside 400 I would look at the p4xi but I now have to check out that steiner 1-8. I just got a quick look through an atacr the other day and it looked pretty nice with a good eye box

Yeah, the ATACR is very nice in person. A bit bulky and some would say heavy for what it is, but it's outstanding in almost every other way. It'd be nice to know how the M8Xi compares though. It's new enough and not being fielded by any gov funded groups that I know of, so I'm not sure if I'll get anyone with any in depth experience on it.
I'll probably grab a P4Xi this month just to have, then upgrade to a NF later in the year.

 

[Newbiesupremo]

I believe someone replied here a few weeks go regarding the M8xi. They were quite disappointed.

 

[ClangClang]

I got to fingerbang the M8Xi at an industry event in March. Form factor kills it for me. Turrets are comically huge, it's almost like they're trying to prank the consumer like "How big can we make this thing and still get people to buy it?"

 

[Bakwa]

Interesting.
I haven't seen an M8Xi in person yet, but they are certainly on the heavy end of the spectrum. I can see how they could seem awkwardly bulky too. Wish I had the same pro deal on an ATACR.

 

[hypno02]

I’ve been thinking about this thread. (Assuming an all purpose 5.56)

The better question is: Is the NX8 worth 1.5x a heavy razor? (Or 1.1-1.2 on an E model?)

Is the NX8 worth that many heavy razors? Ehh. If you like the 2xmag, FFP, and weight savings then fuckin A right.

Does the “E” razor compare to the NX8 for the price? I’ll vote no. Buy a used NX8.

Is the atacr worth 2 Razors? Can’t speculate as I have no time behind the ATACR.

Don’t forget about the Mk6. It may be your perfect medium. It’s my favorite lpvo I’ve used to date.

 

[JWG]

I’ve been thinking about this thread. (Assuming an all purpose 5.56)

The better question is: Is the NX8 worth 1.5x a heavy razor? (Or 1.1-1.2 on an E model?)

Is the NX8 worth that many heavy razors? Ehh. If you like the 2xmag, FFP, and weight savings then fuckin A right.

Does the “E” razor compare to the NX8 for the price? I’ll vote no. Buy a used NX8.

Is the atacr worth 2 Razors? Can’t speculate as I have no time behind the ATACR.

Don’t forget about the Mk6. It may be your perfect medium. It’s my favorite lpvo I’ve used to date.

I prefer the Eyebox of the NX8 on 8x as well as 1x to the MK6. On 8x it just seems move forgiving. On 1x, the non-blinking illumination makes it seem larger than the MK6's when running fast.