Rifle Scopes Is there a do it all optic for an M4?

[david walter]

red dots vs. LPVOs.

Fighting distance to "down a couple city blocks" distance.

I used an SWFA 1-6 HD at Thunder Ranch of the Precision Urban Rifle course and did OK. It was heavy, though it performed well.

Mrs. Walter used an aimpoint red dot and did ok.

Most shots from 50-100 years, some to 200 or 300.

Thoughts on a general purpose optic for a 5.56 rifle? From clearing houses to urban rifle?

 

[Old Man with Gun]

I have two cents for the collection. I'm assuming the context is that of a citizen or LE accountable to the legal system and not a military roll.

To me it is LPVO with good clarity and a reticle I like.

To me, the magnification and clarity are critical. Not so I can hit targets at distance, but so I can be absolutely sure of my target, what is behind the target and what my target is doing.

I imagine I would probably like some of the very high end optics better if I tried them, but my favorite right now is a Sig Tango 6 1-6x24.

I have several Strike Eagle 1-6 gen 2 and they are a good value.

I rarely like the RDS reticles, don't want to go to BUIS if battery is dead and think they are poor choices at dawn and dusk.

 

[Basher]

My vote is either an Aimpoint w/ a magnifier, or a quality LPVO (Steiner P4Xi, Razor Gen2E, etc.). Which you choose is entirely up to your own preferences.

If you anticipate most of your use to be within 100y, it's hard to argue with the speed of a good RDS, and something like a T1/T2/M5/M5S will save you gobs of weight while still buying you insane battery life. A magnifier on an FTS base will allow you to use it when you want, and flip it out of the way when you don't. A QD version will allow you to remove it entirely when you don't need it.

If you anticipate a greater chance of shots beyond 100y, then an LPVO would probably be best. LOTS of options exist, so you'll need to wade through the trash to find one that's reliable and has a reticle you like. The new Steiner P4Xi has an awful reticle IMO, but the first gen is great, and the glass is very good for the price if you can find a used one less than $550-600 or so. People asking for $800 or more are up in the night for that optic, though. A little bit more than that gets you a used Razor Gen2E, which has better glass, a slightly better 1x (to me), and an additional 2X up top.

Me? I have both, and would choose the appropriate rifle for the job when I could. If I could ONLY have one, I would probably go RDS with a magnifier. For HD use, they make more sense to me, and as a civilian who would only use it defensively unless the world was literally imploding, I'd choose to avoid conflict whenever possible rather than stretch my carbine out to greater distances. I want to know I can make those shots, so I practice them when I can, but if I'm not forced to, I won't. Thus, an RDS seems like the more general purpose optic to me.

 

[david walter]

Retired MIL who is trying to stay ahead of current events, is the scenario.

 

[PBWalsh]

My go to WAS an SWFA 1-6 like you. Just had to send mine back due to a frozen mag ring. They game me store credit so its all good.

Kinda in the same boat as you. Currently using an Aimpoint PRO on a 2.26” SKD riser until I find something I can live with.

I would kill for a durable 2.5-10x32mm mil/mil, FFP, sub 20oz, sub 12”. That, with a mini red dot would solve all of my problems. Context for me is SE USA and its terrain. Similar to your requirements as well.

 

[Rerun7]

Based on what you’ve said I would lean heavily toward a red dot. It’s not the end of the world so we are primarily talking self defense.

It’s going to be hard to argue self defense at 300yds. Think about the scene that played out in Kenosha. That’s a more realistic scenario and those engagements were extremely close.

I’ve got both and I’d grab the red dot 10/10 times for a home defense or get out of dodge scenario.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

My go to WAS an SWFA 1-6 like you. Just had to send mine back due to a frozen mag ring. They game me store credit so its all good.

Kinda in the same boat as you. Currently using an Aimpoint PRO on a 2.26” SKD riser until I find something I can live with.

I would kill for a durable 2.5-10x32mm mil/mil, FFP, sub 20oz, sub 12”. That, with a mini red dot would solve all of my problems. Context for me is SE USA and its terrain. Similar to your requirements as well.

I have and like the 2-10x FFP scopes for some situations, but not here. The reticle is way too small on low magnification for close range.
For 0-200 yards I much prefer SFP scopes.

 

[powdahound76]

Have ran both Aimpoint and a NF 1-8.

Mostly 25-200 with some to 300 yds i like the red dot. Never have ran with a magnifier though.

Combo of that and wanting to be solid to 5-600, Im liking the 1-8.
need more time past 400 as the wind is hell at 600 where I shoot on a 75gr.

Still working on closer stuff with 1-8 and darn near as fast. Hard to tell 100% with a pig of a 16” vs an 11.5. Not really a fair comparison.

 

[the_assman]

for that class it sounds like a ta02 , led , acog with an rmr on top would have worked out well

i am partial to that setup as i've been running it for years , nice cqb to mid range setup

 

[david walter]

I have an RMO on the truck gun, and a red dot on the current house gun. Wondering if more magnification is a good thing on the truck gun?

I'm toying with they idea of moving the 1-6 HD back off of my 300 HAMR, and on to the 5.56.

And putting a fixed 6X MQ on the 300 HAMR, with a red dot offset 45* to starboard in front of the scope.

 

[gopherslayer]

Not sure on your vision but I like a 1-4 or 1-5 LPVO, I have several of each. My astigmatism isn’t bad with a LPVO and illuminated reticle.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Specter with irons, and sight doctor. Use it as a hammer if you need to.

 

[dogman]

My Steiner P4Xi is daylight bright at 1x, very clear, lightweight and easy to range out to 600 yds. I've run it through carbine courses and drills with no feeling I was limited in any way. It feel very balanced on 11.5-16" carbines. I have run Aimpoints for years (still do) but easily switch between my red dot and LPVO optics.

I've borrowed a buddies Kahles K16i and plan to guve that a run down soon. I've always appreciated the positive fedback on the Kahles and and Swaro 1-6's, but never got around to adding one to the stable.

 

[Wcbrowning]

Take a look at the Elcan Spectre DR 1-4.

red dots vs. LPVOs.

Fighting distance to "down a couple city blocks" distance.

I used an SWFA 1-6 HD at Thunder Ranch of the Precision Urban Rifle course and did OK. It was heavy, though it performed well.

Mrs. Walter used an aimpoint red dot and did ok.

Most shots from 50-100 years, some to 200 or 300.

Thoughts on a general purpose optic for a 5.56 rifle? From clearing houses to urban rifle?

 

[stefan73]

I know the Nightforce ATACR 1-8X24 is nice. It has a daylight bright red dot and a nice reticle. I have not looked through Vortex or the Trijicon but people seem to be happy with those LPVO's also. I like the flexibility of the LPVO and used one in Iraq with success.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

A red dot mounted on an Acog. No switching between immediate threat and "react to sniper fire" by manually man-handeling the mag ring. Just drop or raise your head as you acquire.

Just my .02 cents from 19 years in SOF and using them all. The SpectrDR is pretty good too. Just not worth the $ imo. Especially when compared to the cost of a Holosun 591 and TA31.

Its been a while. Whats the height of an ACOG objective over the rail ?
1.40" ?

 

[TacticalPlinker]

I don't know off the top of my head but I can measure it when I get home. It's pretty high

I'm training more with 12'oclock mounted RDS over a primary variable. The benefits of shooting support side around cover and during "roll over prone" is obvious.

Curious about the ACOG / RDS .Prices are dropping over the years.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

I've always been of the top-mount persuasion. As early as 2004 when that's all there was. Just dropping your head to the magnified optic always made more sense to me vs rolling the gun over

I'm equally fast on the trigger doing both. The roll to offset is a byproduct of playing 3Gun games

 

[roostercogburn98]

I agree with over the top. Makes more sense to me, and it seems easier to lift my head than roll the rifle and deal with associated poa difference.

 

[pmclaine]

I recently took a class with a TA-33 ACOG.

I bought that model specifically to avoid the common complaint with the 4X that the eye relief required is stupid. Plenty of eye relief with the TA-33.

I found it to be very adequate out to the 300 yards the class used and it allowed me to hit plates at distance I probably would not have been able to adequately see/identify with an unmag'd Aimpoint Pro.

Built like a brickshithouse, reasonably light, not an offending profile.

Achilles heal...........my prescription lenses become a crucial part of the system......no ocular adjustment to focus the reticle. My glasses go down much of the optic capability goes down.

 

[PBWalsh]

Achilles heal...........my prescription lenses become a crucial part of the system......no ocular adjustment to focus the reticle. My glasses go down much of the optic capability goes down.

This is why I’ll most likely not buy another ACOG. I don’t want to be 100% reliant on my glasses/contacts.

LPVO/prism with an adjustable diopter for me (Primary Arms).

 

[pmclaine]

This is why I’ll most likely not buy another ACOG. I don’t want to be 100% reliant on my glasses/contacts.

LPVO/prism with an adjustable diopter for me (Primary Arms).

A valid concern those alpha 20/20s never deal with.

My correction is minor but even so that reticle just disappears without it.

Being nearsighted I wonder if it's not an issue for farsighted dreamers.

 

[mewillis]

I use the Trijicon TR24 triangle on both of my M4’s 1-4 is all I need for 1-300 which is all I will ever shoot in my AO.

 

[MK20]

Steiner P4xi and be done with it.
Good out to 600 and good down to inside of a house.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

I use the Trijicon TR24 triangle on both of my M4’s 1-4 is all I need for 1-300 which is all I will ever shoot in my AO.

My favorite !
TR24 in amber triangle. At 1x it has something like 12ft of eye relief

 

[223Rem]

I would look to a 1x or 2x prism optic.

Sure, you will lose some battery life and eye relief, but the optic will always present a reticle, on or off.

Furthermore, your astigmatism will be a none issue so you aiming point will be more precise for longer shots.

 

[mkollman74]

I would look to a 1x or 2x prism optic.

Sure, you will lose some battery life and eye relief, but the optic will always present a reticle, on or off.

Furthermore, your astigmatism will be a none issue so you aiming point will be more precise for longer shots.

What are the best 1x prism optics?

 

[nn8734]

Elcan 1/4 with the 5.56 reticle if you primarily shoot 55-62 grain bullets and 7.62 reticle if your load uses 75-77g bullets. Stick a trijicon rmr at 12 oclock and your good to go (and be fast) from point blank out to 500.

 

[45custom]

Going to echo the Elcan Specter DR 1/4x here. Bought it explicitly for use as a single optic on a single rifle that could do just about anything a 5.56 rifle could be expected to do, except for going full SPR I suppose. I even leave it on the middle dot setting for home defense.

 

[TurboTrout]

Whatever the flavor of the month 1-? X LPVO is.

 

[Shoots 700's]

i have multiple guns but I have had good success with a 1.5x5 Leupold Mark 4. Old I know, but it works out to 500 yards for me

 

[stefan73]

i have multiple guns but I have had good success with a 1.5x5 Leupold Mark 4. Old I know, but it works out to 500 yards for me

I used the same thing in Iraq 05/06. A very capable optic. The illumination is NOT daylight bright but the batteries last a long time.

 

[ZF-1]

4x prism with a mrds on a 45* mount is what I have on mine for now. May switch it up to a 2x instead but for now this works ok with both eyes open.

 

[TurboTrout]

4x prism with a mrds on a 45* mount is what I have on mine for now. May switch it up to a 2x instead but for now this works ok with both eyes open.

View attachment 7696218

Just curious, any reason you mounted the RDS forward vs aft of the ejection port?

 

[ZF-1]

Just curious, any reason you mounted the RDS forward vs aft of the ejection port?

The prism eye relief and the rear sight don't allow room for mrds. If I ditch the buis then it should fit fine.

 

[Denys]

red dots vs. LPVOs.

Fighting distance to "down a couple city blocks" distance.

I used an SWFA 1-6 HD at Thunder Ranch of the Precision Urban Rifle course and did OK. It was heavy, though it performed well.

Mrs. Walter used an aimpoint red dot and did ok.

Most shots from 50-100 years, some to 200 or 300.

Thoughts on a general purpose optic for a 5.56 rifle? From clearing houses to urban rifle?

March 1.5-15X42.

 

[skatz11]

If I had to pick one all around AR optic the Razor 1-6 is hard to beat. Daylight bright dot, usable reticle at 1x without illumination if the batter dies and a versatile BDC.

Sure there are some good 1-8 and the new Razor gen3 1-10 but I think the original razor 1-6 is hard to beat. I’ve changed out a lot of higher magnification scopes on my bolt guns and dedicated precision gas guns over the years but the Razor 1-6 has given me no reason to upgrade. I’m perfectly happy with my SR15/Razor 1-6 as my 3gun and apocalypse rifle.

 

[KineticPerformance]

A Razor 1-6x is really pretty hard to beat if you want a LPVO but if you are shooting the distances that you mentioned in your course then a quality RDS will do.

 

[RTV]

Vortex Razor 1-10x

i love how on 1x the reticle shrinks down so its like looking through a red dot and then as you zoom in you get a very usable tree for quick shots.
even with the illum off on 1x the posts on the sides and bottom are very easy to use to bracket your target.

it truly feels like 2 optics in 1.

 

[DJL2]

Thoughts...

• As soon as you introduce CQB, that requirement trumps every other requirement because that's your least forgiving scenario. Your setup must be absolutely rock solid for moving and shooting stuff 50 yards and in. For me, that's 1x, simple and illuminated (preferably red).
• I haven't noticed a quatifiable degradation in ability to service dude sized targets from 50-200 meters using a RDS. Might be a touch slower from 200-300. The advantage of magnification at these ranges tends to be target ID and placement for "complex" engagements (i.e. when your hold is not COVM).
• You can run 4x out to 600 yards pretty easily... depending on how your AR is setup, that's probably plenty. At extended range, a good reticle will definitely help you make hits and we come back to target ID.
• If it's a SHTF rifle, it's worth thinking about ruggedness, weight, maintenance, etc. I couldn't tell you which LPVO comes out on top there. Probably prudent to have a back-up system regardless.

 

[4thandbleek]

I like the idea of a 1-4X, or maybe 1-6x on an M4. 1X, because the gun is primarily a CBQ weapon, 4X because it's still pretty effective at 300-plus. The magnification matches up well with the strengths of the round.

I would look at Nightforce, S&B, Elcan, Leupold, and on the lower end maybe Nikon, and don't leave out IOR. There are others ..not a complete list by any means. There are quite a few choices of 1-4X scopes these days.