Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
We want to see your skills! Post a video between now and November 1st showing what you've learned from Frank's lessons and 3 people will be selected to win a free shirt. Good luck everyone!
Create a channel Learn more1/2" at 50 yds is 1 MOA.....not 1/2 MOAWhat conditions are you guys shooting in? I'm baffled that 1/2 moa seems so elusive at 50 yards. I'm usually the skeptic.
The range where I did most of my shooting was outdoors, but it was smack in the middle of the 'burbs with walls made out of railroad ties running the length of the range. Is this why I was able to achieve 1/2 moa? Windy days still opened up groups, but I could generally keep it at 1/2" when it was calm and I did it pretty consistently. I have an NRA air rifle target (12 per page) with 5 round groups and the largest was .473 CTC with a mk ii.
If you were to overlap them, I'm sure it'd open up a bit, but still probably under 3/4". Sandbag in the rear and a plywood rest up front.
View attachment 7496634
I built a custom 10/22 that would shoot one-hole five shot groups at 20 yards with Wolf ammo. Volquartsen receiver, Kidd trigger, Lila barrel, Leupold rim fire scope, and McMillan STC stock. First time I shot it, I thought all rounds but first one missed the paper.I have a few .22 rifles as well as a Savage 93R in .17 HMR. The .22s are not bad guns, but the Savage generally shoots sub-MOA, and the others will not.
I've noticed that there are now a few "precision" .22 rifles out there, and I have a boatload of .22 ammo. Is there anything available that will shoot sub-MOA, or is it a waste of time trying to get there with .22 LR? I've seen some videos of people shooting "precision" .22 rifles, and they seemed really happy with 1.5-2 MOA.
1/2" at 50 yds is 1 MOA.....not 1/2 MOA
Ummmmm, Jesse, gotta disagree.
You contributed to this thread in a major way.
The rimfire 6x5 you've been maintaining these past years
has been an excellent reference with regards to rimfire capability.
Serious amount of time involved in that project.
That's why it ended up being linked here.
Much appreciated.
There should be a boat load of sub-moa rifles out there. My Anschutz 1712 FWT on the superb Match 54 Action shoots sub moa with Eley Tenex. My view it’s the ammunition every time. Image from 70yds, but do the math and you find that is sub moaI have a few .22 rifles as well as a Savage 93R in .17 HMR. The .22s are not bad guns, but the Savage generally shoots sub-MOA, and the others will not.
I've noticed that there are now a few "precision" .22 rifles out there, and I have a boatload of .22 ammo. Is there anything available that will shoot sub-MOA, or is it a waste of time trying to get there with .22 LR? I've seen some videos of people shooting "precision" .22 rifles, and they seemed really happy with 1.5-2 MOA.
I have a few .22 rifles as well as a Savage 93R in .17 HMR. The .22s are not bad guns, but the Savage generally shoots sub-MOA, and the others will not.
I've noticed that there are now a few "precision" .22 rifles out there, and I have a boatload of .22 ammo. Is there anything available that will shoot sub-MOA, or is it a waste of time trying to get there with .22 LR? I've seen some videos of people shooting "precision" .22 rifles, and they seemed really happy with 1.5-2 MOA.
Does this count as sub MOA?
Golf balls @400 with a .22 Vudoo
I was not very specific in my first post.
Here is what happened. I saw they were making "precision" rimfire rifles. My Ruger RPR in 6.5 really will do sub-MOA at 100 yards "all day long," with a few flyers due to my lack of skill, so I wondered if "precision rimfire" meant a rifle that could GENERALLY put .22 LR in about a 1" circle at 100 yards. Based on what I read here, it looks like it would be easier to build my own space shuttle, so I have abandoned the idea. I thought it would be a neat, cheap way to practice, but if you have to buy numerous rounds of 25-cent-per-round ammo for every one you can actually use, it's just not worth it. I have all sorts of off-the-shelf .17 HMR ammo that shoots very well at 10.5 cents per round, and .17 HMR is a thousand percent more useful for hunting, so there is no reason for me to struggle with .22 LR.
Creedmoor ammo is loosening up, and S&B FMJ will shoot 1 MOA for less than a dollar per round when it's available, so paying a dollar or more per shot for .22 LR seems like a really bad idea.
Today I got lucky and picked up some Hornady ELD-M, and even in my hands, half-inch 5-round groups are common. In the past, I have paid as little as $1.20 per round, and I expect to see deals like that again, so I am going to forget all about .22 LR. Sad, because I bought heavily before it dried up.
Velocity variance. It will only show up at distance.I've never understood, for example how ammo "A" can be more accurate than ammo "B" at 50 yards yet ammo "B" is more accurate than ammo "A" at 200 yards.
I agree, there are a lot of factors affecting both in reality, but it was a simplified example.Inconsistent BC’s also show at distance.
Thank you sir. I guess I just meant that I don’t really feel qualified or maybe able to confidently answer the OP’s question. It is funny though, my initial knee jerk reaction when I first read it was “well yeah there are plenty of sub MOA rimfire rifles out there”. I say this b/c when I attempt to answer a similar question (which I do every time I build a new rifle) for me the question is based on a specific distance (50 yards for rimfire and 100-200 yards for centerfire) because I feel it is only at those distances can I test the RIFLES limits and only after finding the best ammo for that rifle. Where as at any further distance I am really testing the shooters abilities to execute a proper shot time after time and make a perfect atmospheric correction and testing the ammo, both of which are MASSIVELY important in rimfire.
So now that everyone knows my parameters for judging a rifles accuracy I feel like I can answer the specific question of “is there a real sub MOA rifle” hell yes there are a lot of them, I have owned a medIzumi sized truck full of them. . I think the bulk of this discussion is really talking about ammo and shooter ability, not rifles.
I am not trying to say I am correct in thinking this, rather it is my opinion.
I understand what you are trying to say but logic has it that whatever is the most accurate at longer ranges cannot be less accurate at shorter ranges.Velocity variance. It will only show up at distance.
Imagine the concentricity of A is better than B, so that at 50 yards A is around .7 MOA and B is 1 MOA. Well, bullets are unguided, so they don’t know where the target is. So neither of these can get any smaller at distance. But they can get worse.
Imagine further that A has pretty bad velocity spread. It’s not going to show up at close range. But it can certainly degrade long range performance. So A shoots 3 MOA at 200 yards because the ES and SD are huge. But B has very small SD, so it only goes to 1.5 MOA at 200.
go ask keith baker how he feels about that. bet he has data to show otherwiseI understand what you are trying to say but logic has it that whatever is the most accurate at longer ranges cannot be less accurate at shorter ranges.
I don't know who Keith Baker is. If what everyone is saying is true then the bullet has to somehow curve back to center in mid flight. I do not understand how that can happen.go ask keith baker how he feels about that. bet he has data to show otherwise
It cannot get more accurate, that’s true. If it is 1 MOA at 50 yards, it can never get better. But they can get worse at different rates.I understand what you are trying to say but logic has it that whatever is the most accurate at longer ranges cannot be less accurate at shorter ranges.
regular top 5 shooter in PRS. has documented TINY ASS groups at 1kI don't know who Keith Baker is. If what everyone is saying is true then the bullet has to somehow curve back to center in mid flight. I do not understand how that can happen.
It would be equivalent to two cars, one with an alignment issue and the other perfect You let go of the steering wheel on both and all seems equal for maybe 75-100 yards then the car with the alignment issue starts steering to one side or the other. It never straightens itself back, keeps going and going in the same direction. This is how I see the bullet path.
I don't know who Keith Baker is. If what everyone is saying is true then the bullet has to somehow curve back to center in mid flight. I do not understand how that can happen.
It would be equivalent to two cars, one with an alignment issue and the other perfect You let go of the steering wheel on both and all seems equal for maybe 75-100 yards then the car with the alignment issue starts steering to one side or the other. It never straightens itself back, keeps going and going in the same direction. This is how I see the bullet path.
Yes, I agree 100% with this statement. And if that's the case then Ammo "A" and Ammo "B" would be equal at 50 or at least insignificant enough to judge but at 100 yards they start to separate. I agree 100% with that and do believe that's the case probably 90% of the time.It cannot get more accurate, that’s true. If it is 1 MOA at 50 yards, it can never get better. But they can get worse at different rates.
Hmm, didn't know anyone was shooting rimfire out to 1K yards.regular top 5 shooter in PRS. has documented TINY ASS groups at 1k
tests his loads at 1,000 yards. they shoot .4ish or so at 100 and 1k
the 1 hole groups at 100 shoot with vertical and everything else at 1k
Yeah, I can go with all that. In all you said you are not claiming Ammo "A" is more accurate than Ammo "B" at 50 yards but less accurate than Ammo "B" at 200 yards.I should clarify a bit.
Sk long range in my RPR is 1.25" groups at 50 and at 200 its 5" plus flyers.
SK rifle match is 7/8" at 50 and 5" at 200 plus flyers.
Center X (best lot) 7/8 at 50 and 5" at 200 WITH FLYERS.
All of this ammo has simular ES
CCI and Federal target 7/8" at 50 7" plus flyers at 200. Both simular ES to SK.
The federal target used to be 7/8" at 50 and 5" at 200. Then I bent the receiver... now its no good.
Ammo will always shoot worse moa at 200 then 50 but not as much worse as another ammo. That difference does not seem to track with velocity so i expect it has more to do with harmonics... but thats just my limited testing.
thats centerfire but it still appliesHmm, didn't know anyone was shooting rimfire out to 1K yards.
Yeah, I can go with that too.I have quite a few years worth of targets documented at 50, 100 and 200 yards.
I noticed an interesting pattern with rimfire results.
I call it the half-third rule. Half the distance expect one-third the spread.
At 200 yards you get 6 inches of spread.
At 100 yards, same rifle and conditions expect 2 inches of spread.
At 50 yards, 0.7 inches and at 25 yards, 0.2 inches.
It's not an exact ratio, but close enough to allow a decent comparison.
Hmmm plenty? I expect that you have a sarcastic sense of humor.... I guess you did say shoot....thats centerfire but it still applies
and plenty of people shoot 22lr to 1k...
Man, I'm sorry....I just can't go with that.thats centerfire but it still applies
and plenty of people shoot 22lr to 1k...
Now I can really go with that! LOL Where's that dancing banana??Hmmm plenty? I expect that you have a sarcastic sense of humor.... I guess you did say shoot....
Centerfire rules do not apply with rimfire.
go ask keith baker how he feels about that. bet he has data to show otherwise
This is what makes me wonder about fast twist barrels. I'm at the opposite end I'm more interested in 100 yards out.you are wasting your time arguing with some guys. Lapua test tunnel data show the same thing, well known, well published.
with regularity, for some reason, some lots are great @50 and lousy @100, just as some show little promise @50 and shine @100.
Don’t know, cause I have little interest @100 but if I had to guess,in some barrels/lots, some don’t get completely stable until past 50 and some stabilize early then fade.
yet another example that if you’re serious you gotta test lots at distances you shoot.
Hmmm plenty? I expect that you have a sarcastic sense of humor.... I guess you did say shoot....
Centerfire rules do not apply with rimfire.
you're talking group size at distance. rimfire versus centerfire doesnt matter. i'd take a centerfire rifle that shoots .4moa at 100 and 1000 versus one that shoots .1s at 100 and .8moa at 1k.Man, I'm sorry....I just can't go with that.
First off, comparing rimfire to centerfire WHEN shooting them at 1k yards is not apples to apples. The end.
I bought my daughter a Ruger Precision Rimfire for 4-H small bore, and with CCI Standard Velocity she is getting about 0.75" groups at 50 yards. High velocity is 1.5" groups and Stingers are about 2.5" groups.I have a few .22 rifles as well as a Savage 93R in .17 HMR. The .22s are not bad guns, but the Savage generally shoots sub-MOA, and the others will not.
I've noticed that there are now a few "precision" .22 rifles out there, and I have a boatload of .22 ammo. Is there anything available that will shoot sub-MOA, or is it a waste of time trying to get there with .22 LR? I've seen some videos of people shooting "precision" .22 rifles, and they seemed really happy with 1.5-2 MOA.
I'm with you. I have more interest in how it shoots at 200 vs 50.you're talking group size at distance. rimfire versus centerfire doesnt matter. i'd take a centerfire rifle that shoots .4moa at 100 and 1000 versus one that shoots .1s at 100 and .8moa at 1k.
same goes for rimfire at say 25y and 250y which are close enough to the equivalent.
just cause it shoots small ass groups at 25/50y doesnt mean it holds at 100y or further
and yes. plenty of people shoot 22LR at 1k yards. just cause you dont know doesnt mean they dont exist. I know of 3 that are working past 800 and that's a SMALL sampling
We are on the same page. I thought at first the way I read it that you were saying a 22lr if it shoots 1moa at 50 will at 200.right. it's not that the group shrinks at a further distance (this doesnt happen other than luck), but it doesnt degrade as distance increases
so a .3 rifle at X distance holds that .3 at Y distance, versus a .1 rifle at X distance that shoots .6 at Y distance
That one I haven't seen Tim.
The computer generated groups posted, showing the results of the same 40 shot runs,
have the results at 50 always being tighter than the same bullets spread at 100.
Those 2 target sensors, one at 50, the other at 100 allow the
software to generate those composite shot/trajectory images.
Is there a web page with more information available?
It's really not a big deal. I was thinking out loud and thought I'd write down what I was thinking. It actually never required a comment.
regular top 5 shooter in PRS. has documented TINY ASS groups at 1k
tests his loads at 1,000 yards. they shoot .4ish or so at 100 and 1k
the 1 hole groups at 100 shoot with vertical and everything else at 1k