Suppressors Is there nothing that can be done?

[orkan]

Form 3 and form 4 wait times are getting absolutely ridiculous. It's turning people off from even buying suppressors.

Is there nothing that we can do? How much are we going to allow before we do something? 12 months? 1.5 years? 2 years?

The 2-4 month wait for a form 4 several years ago sucked, but it was still less than half what we're waiting now. Countries which have 50x more restrictive gun laws, allow suppressor purchase over the counter, and consider it rude to shoot WITHOUT ONE. Just how long are we going to wait before we demand suppressors be taken off the NFA list?

Just needed to vent. This is getting beyond ridiculous.

 

[m1garand30064]

Oh don't worry. Once the new rules go into effect the wait times will plummet.

 

[Petrichor Actual]

I agree wholeheartedly. I've been waiting on a sparrow since february and I know it's still going to be awhile. Suppressors should be over the counter. It would sure help my tinnitus.

 

[ORD]

Form 3 and form 4 wait times are getting absolutely ridiculous. It's turning people off from even buying suppressors.

And thus...at least arguably...you have the REAL, but undeclared intent of the "ever-increasing wait times" for Form 3 and 4 items!

It sucks, yes! But it could ALWAYS be worse. There has been a push for suppressors to be removed from NFA status for a long time, but never what I have observed to be any meaningful dialogue about it, much less any meaningful support from the powers that be in Wash. Not wanting to turn this political by any means, but at least at present, I don't see OTC purchases of suppressors being a reality in my lifetime...perhaps my children will be more fortunate than we have otherwise been on that front.

 

[KYS]

At this time in our nation, you will not see OTC purchases of suppressors anytime soon. Maybe when trusts start getting more restricted the wait times will drop again. Not as many forms going in.
The NFA will also see a loss of revenue, which at present they are 1 of 2 entities controlled by government that MAKES money.

 

[catswithguns]

Can you just image what is must have been like in the days when you could walk into a hardware store, produce the cash and walk out with a Thompson Sub-machine gun.

 

[Sugarbug]

And thus...at least arguably...you have the REAL, but undeclared intent of the "ever-increasing wait times" for Form 3 and 4 items!

It sucks, yes! But it could ALWAYS be worse. There has been a push for suppressors to be removed from NFA status for a long time, but never what I have observed to be any meaningful dialogue about it, much less any meaningful support from the powers that be in Wash. Not wanting to turn this political by any means, but at least at present, I don't see OTC purchases of suppressors being a reality in my lifetime...perhaps my children will be more fortunate than we have otherwise been on that front.

I don't think any weapon/accessory that is currently an NFA item will ever be removed from NFA status. Do you want to be the politician/official that promoted removing suppressors from being registered and then have someone go on a shooting spree with one? Career suicide and that's why it will never happen.

As for future generations having more freedoms in anything pertaining to firearms... I don't see that either. Each generation has grown up with fewer freedoms and rights than the one before it. "I remember when..." is always changing. My great grandfather remembers when he could buy a machine gun. I remember when the fight about the bullet button started. My children will likely "remember" when semi-automatics were legal.

Sad, sad, sad...

 

[skinney_7]

Try the e-form... I've got a 3 pending now, I've talked with a couple guys who said they've had them (form 3's) go through in as little a 16 days, mine is right at 2 weeks, so we'll see how quickly it works.

 

[orkan]

I don't think any weapon/accessory that is currently an NFA item will ever be removed from NFA status. Do you want to be the politician/official that promoted removing suppressors from being registered and then have someone go on a shooting spree with one? Career suicide and that's why it will never happen.

I refuse to give weight to that argument. I notice a recurring trend anytime I broach this subject, in that the majority of people won't even begin talking about it.

Let me be clear. A suppressor is NOT a machine gun.

While I agree it's a big leap... there are steps in between which make sense. Why not an NFA ID card, and let NICS do it's job? First NFA item takes a while... and then after that you simply provide proof of your ID card and pass a NICS. That is a VERY reasonable conversation that would still keep criminals in check and would address our wait times.

 

[Sugarbug]

I refuse to give weight to that argument. I notice a recurring trend anytime I broach this subject, in that the majority of people won't even begin talking about it.

Let me be clear. A suppressor is NOT a machine gun.

You and I agree 100%. By no means should you take what I said as my agreeing with the way suppressors are currently handled. However, I still don't think any politician will ever stick their neck out for it. Even within the gun community, there are people that don't understand suppressors and give way to whatever the public rhetoric is.

 

[orkan]

I still don't think any politician will ever stick their neck out for it. Even within the gun community, there are people that don't understand suppressors and give way to whatever the public rhetoric is.

Are you willing to accept that? I'm not. If we just sit idle and accept it, then our fate is sealed.

I don't think this is that unreasonable.

NFA ID card given after the first extensive background check, and the can is NICS'd out just like any other firearm. Then, for subsequent purchases, the FFL runs a NFA ID check via an online system which provides an "authorization code" which proves the ID card was checked. Then a standard NICS is run, allowing the FFL to get the suppressor off the books. They still get their $200 per, and we get over-the-counter suppressor sales.

It is just disgusting to me that I can go to New Zealand and buy a suppressor in a gas station... while here in the supposed "land of the free" my customers have to wait the better part of a year to get something that enhances firearm safety in every way imaginable.

 

[Sugarbug]

Are you willing to accept that? I'm not. If we just sit idle and accept it, then our fate is sealed.

I don't think this is that unreasonable.

NFA ID card given after the first extensive background check, and the can is NICS'd out just like any other firearm. Then, for subsequent purchases, the FFL runs a NFA ID check via an online system which provides an "authorization code" which proves the ID card was checked. Then a standard NICS is run, allowing the FFL to get the suppressor off the books. They still get their $200 per, and we get over-the-counter suppressor sales.

It is just disgusting to me that I can go to New Zealand and buy a suppressor in a gas station... while here in the supposed "land of the free" my customers have to wait the better part of a year to get something that enhances firearm safety in every way imaginable.

I'm still with you. Changes should be made and your suggestion is both logical and time-effective.

It still takes politicians willing to do it, though... which, given the current state of affairs, our country is severely lacking...

 

[MagnumSecurity]

More pressure on the NRA from its members might help. I know they have had discussions about suppressors for some time. I have contacted them about this issue in the past and let them know my views and asked that they do more to help make it legal to buy over the counter. The only legal issue that I would go along with for suppressors is to make them a required safety device. Of course without any government approval for purchase.

 

[Delta4-3]

The NRA has scammed and conned the NFA community more than once, I think they care not. Every owner taking information in a well presented manner for the less crooked politicians to enact FFA's in every state and smarten up federal regs is long overdue.

 

[Sugarbug]

The NRA has scammed and conned the NFA community more than once, I think they care not. Every owner taking information in a well presented manner for the less crooked politicians to enact FFA's in every state and smarten up federal regs is long overdue.

It's a bargaining chip. Remember what happened in 1984? Unfortunately, people that want SBRs/suppressors/etc are a minority. As such, the NRA can please the majority of gun owners by sacrificing the NFA population to appease the idiots in Washington.

 

[Strykervet]

At this time in our nation, you will not see OTC purchases of suppressors anytime soon. Maybe when trusts start getting more restricted the wait times will drop again. Not as many forms going in.
The NFA will also see a loss of revenue, which at present they are 1 of 2 entities controlled by government that MAKES money.

Trusts are gonna make it go up, not down. Because now if you're behind me, I'll be having two trustees and one beneficiary they'll have to check out. The new rule makes me have to jump through another hoop, but I still don't have to go beg a prosecutor or sheriff for permission. All I have to do is get fingerprints, pictures for everyone, and what I imagine is the same background check form used for the CC license. It sucks, but it won't stop me from doing it. In fact, I'm planning on two cans here soon, just waiting on the barrel for one.

No way I'd wanna mess with these without a trust. Just too messy. I am getting sick, though, of this "war against responsible gun owners" or whatever the hell this one's called. I don't see this rule doing much to affect crime levels AT ALL.

 

[Zak Smith]

The eforms are speeding things up considerably- at least for Form 3's

 

[thrusty]

Suppressors are not firearms. They are a firearm accessory. They should be OTC pending a NICS check approval.

Essentially, the gov should look at them exactly like a car muffler......You need a license to drive a car, but, you don't need a license to have the muffler for a car. If you can pass the first requirement (ie: having the license/passing a NICS check on a firearm), you should not be restricted from using/possessing the accessory.

I blame Hollywood on this one...the movies make suppressors out to be totally silent and used by the "hit man" character. In fact, they only make the firearm "hearing safe" and very few (like zero) crimes are committed with them attached to a firearm.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Well, it has been two years, what about....never mind...



Marketing 101....Form 4.....Form 4..... the issue was never Form 3....

 

[orkan]

Exactly.

Last week I was making a sale, working with a guy on buying his first suppressor. He was sold. Then he asked about wait time. I told him they are going about 9 months right now. He laughed at me, as he literally thought it was a joke. When the reality sank in, he wasn't even interested anymore. I asked him if it was 3-4 months, if he would do it? He said yes, "... but I'd be happier if it was a couple weeks! Hell, why do I even need to wait at all!?!?!? I have a concealed carry permit, and I can walk out the door with any firearm I choose without a wait! A suppressor isn't even a gun... what am I going to do, club someone to death with it!?!?!" He was visibly upset, and rightfully so. We NFA owners have simply been acclimated to a situation that is as illogical as anything can ever be. Like a frog sitting in water slowly brought to boil, we're just sitting here doing nothing. That irritates me.

My customers are my lifeblood, and the federal government is now costing me money. They always have been, but that one customer made me realize again just how ignorantly terrible this situation is. Rights are always stripped in the name of safety. Yet in this instance, the federal government is forcing an unsafe situation. Suppressor ownership has absolutely no tie to crime statistics at any level. The fact that we are fined if we don't have a muffler on our automobile, yet have to wait 9 months and pay $200 to get a muffler on our firearm is proof positive that the feds have this one all wrong. Which is more likely to cause permanent hearing damage? A car with no muffler, or an unsuppressed firearm?

If we are content to sit back on our laurels and say "well no politician will back this plan" then we deserve our fate. It is up to us to MAKE them do what we ask. I think we can all agree that a 9 month wait for a Form 4 is ludicrous. Even 4 months is inexcusable considering we have an entire NICS system in place to immediately and effectively check for proof of criminal wrongdoing. We need to organize and get suppressors treated differently than other NFA items. Our goal should be to get them treated like ANY OTHER FIREARM. Still regulated, still subject to NICS, still illegal for felons to possess, yet perfectly legal and unobstructed ownership for the law-abiding populous.

As Strykervet stated, this war on responsible gun owners is really starting to get tiresome. They will not stop fighting against us. Every time someone is shot, they blame every single one of us. To say that we shouldn't fight for what we know is right simply because those people are fighting against us is a defeatist mindset and will only end in the continued deterioration of our rights. Anyone that hasn't been sitting in the kettle, but instead has just been tossed into it, realizes just how bad things are right now. We are used to being mistreated, so we don't realize it. First-time suppressor buyers realize it all too well, and see it for the disgustingly despicable truth which it is.

We all know what happened the last time we asked the NRA for help. Are we to trust them now? I see the NRA turning its back on gun owners every single day in the name of compromise. Well why is it that WE are always the ones doing the compromising? Let us not forget that if the NRA did their job too well, they would not have one anymore. I'd love to listen to someone convince me that their multi-million dollar operation has the goal of not needing to be around anymore.

No. If positive change is going to come, it won't be because of the NRA. History has convinced me of that. Change must come from us, directly.

The first order of business as I see it, is for us to all get on the same page. Unless we can actually decide to start moving on changing the rules of suppressor ownership, it's dead before it even starts. That's seemingly where we are now. Everyone is convinced that positive activity can't take place because of the politicians. That being the case, is it really the politicians fault? ... or is it ours?

 

[BoilerUP]

My local shop has the AAC Cyclone and YHM 5.56 & 7.62 Ti Phantom in stock, sitting on the shelf.

If I could walk in, fill out the 4473, pay my money for the can AND tax stamp and walk out with the suppressor I'd have taken my beating from the wife for one (or more) a while ago...but I have a harder time letting my money sit out there for 6+ months without being able to use my purchase. It was easier to stomach with a total investment of $400 for a 22LR can, its much harder for a $900+ centerfire can.

There really isn't any reason why folks that have already been through the NFA process and already have at least one stamp shouldn't be able to cash-and-carry.

Well, no reason except politics...and the Fudds that comprise the bulk of the NRA and other organization could care less about "silencers" and the "rich" people that own them.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Folks, I know the size as represented sucks, but there is no alternative on this forum anymore.
Right hand click and "save" it to your desktop....then you can open it in your own viewer and zoom in.

The Form 4 issue will remain until BATFE wants it to go away.

 

[KYS]

Trusts are gonna make it go up, not down. Because now if you're behind me, I'll be having two trustees and one beneficiary they'll have to check out. The new rule makes me have to jump through another hoop, but I still don't have to go beg a prosecutor or sheriff for permission. All I have to do is get fingerprints, pictures for everyone, and what I imagine is the same background check form used for the CC license. It sucks, but it won't stop me from doing it. In fact, I'm planning on two cans here soon, just waiting on the barrel for one.

No way I'd wanna mess with these without a trust. Just too messy. I am getting sick, though, of this "war against responsible gun owners" or whatever the hell this one's called. I don't see this rule doing much to affect crime levels AT ALL.

That is not accurate information. They will require a background check for each person involved in the trust, regardless. That requires the CLEO of your county to approve it with a signature. That was in the initial documents they sent out for review.
Your CLEO will have a role in trusts to verify you are not a felon in possession of a firearm. There is no way of getting around it. You will have to encounter them to get a form signed off on.

What is equally sad is that the background check the NFA is doing is exactly like what the NICS check is. Same information. What really pisses me off is the fact that a organization that is supposed to be helping us protect our rights.... sent in the letter to have the trusts "loophole" checked out with more scrutiny. Thanks guys....

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

Make your own decisions here people, but I feel this should be getting easier not harder.

This is all a load of balls. I am buying a bow, which coincidentally, is even quieter than a suppressor.

 

[R.Walters]

That is not accurate information. They will require a background check for each person involved in the trust, regardless. That requires the CLEO of your county to approve it with a signature. That was in the initial documents they sent out for review.
Your CLEO will have a role in trusts to verify you are not a felon in possession of a firearm. There is no way of getting around it. You will have to encounter them to get a form signed off on.

What is equally sad is that the background check the NFA is doing is exactly like what the NICS check is. Same information. What really pisses me off is the fact that a organization that is supposed to be helping us protect our rights.... sent in the letter to have the trusts "loophole" checked out with more scrutiny. Thanks guys....

KY is this in effect now?

 

[joshua79109]

It's time we stand together on this issue.

I don't see us getting support to remove silencers from NFA right now, but that's just my opinion.



Join the American Silencer Association. Educate others. Make a good run and go at this from the 'eat the elephant' perspective.

Don't give an inch.

 

[KYS]

KY is this in effect now?

No. I keep hearing "December 5th" is when the new ordnances should take affect. I think we are headed down a slippery slope and now is the time to contact your local reps and senators to have them fight this. The UN gun bill is the first step into the crapper for the 2nd.
Luckily our constitution tells the UN to get bent, if our leaders stand up for us that is. Not getting political here but just sayin'

 

[R.Walters]

Shit! I hope I can send out the form 4s in time.

 

[mrX]

At this time, there have not been any changes to the NFA process for trusts and corps.

The proposed rule change is known as ATF 41P, and the 90 day comment period began 09/09/13 and extends through 12/09/13. The short version - the propsed rule change would require 'legal entities', such as trusts and corps, to submit prints, photos, and CLEO certification for all 'responsible persons', similar to the current requirements for an individual.

The proposed rule leaves many questions unanswered, and raises many others as to how this would work. For example, would a three year old beneficiary require prints, photos, and CLEO certification...what about trustees living in another state or juridiction where NFA items are not allowed........

Here is a link for ATF 41P on Regulations.gov where you can read the proposed rule, read submitted comments, and submit your own comments and suggestions. Specific examples of increased wait times and CLEO refusals are encouraged.

Here's the chance to have our concerns heard and addressed. Take your time and think about your comments before submitting them - no need to rush as long as submitted before the 12/09/13 deadline.

Supposedly the ATF will have to formally respond to these comments in the Federal Register.

Edited to add Link to Open the Docket Folder to read and post comments.

 

[KYS]

Shit! I hope I can send out the form 4s in time.

Take your time, with the government shutdown in affect your forms will be going nowhere for awhile!

 

[R.Walters]

Take your time, with the government shutdown in affect your forms will be going nowhere for awhile!

This is my first time, The wait is hard. Still waiting on form 3's So i have around a year i would say!

I wouldnt mind having them by next fall!

 

[smschulz]

Suppressors are not firearms. They are a firearm accessory. They should be OTC pending a NICS check approval.

With NO NICS check approval necessary.

 

[orkan]

You need to take a page from the libtards book. We will never get them from NFA to OTC in one step. We need to put a plan together and push on it over the next ten years to make that happen, step by step.

 

[thrusty]

With NO NICS check approval necessary.

Unfortunately, that will never happen.
I don't mind an instant NICS check.... I do mind a 200 tax, paperwork, extensive background check, fingerprints, photos, CLEO signature, 12 month wait and registering what I have.

 

[BoilerUP]

The tax is a PITA, but if you could pay the tax & walk away with your can at the point of sale...most folks would happily keep paying it.

 

[thrusty]

The tax is a PITA, but if you could pay the tax & walk away with your can at the point of sale...most folks would happily keep paying it.

Good point... I wouldn't have an issue with that either.

 

[smschulz]

Unfortunately, that will never happen.
I don't mind an instant NICS check.... I do mind a 200 tax, paperwork, extensive background check, fingerprints, photos, CLEO signature, 12 month wait and registering what I have.

Yeah, that it better and if it is an either/or ...no doubt the way to go.
Still they have no business putting us through all that shit ...except that they can.
I am especially annoyed with the registering part .

 

[orkan]

Take responsibility.

They can, because we let them.

 

[matt2143]

I was under the impression CLEO signatures were being done away with?! So now trusts will also need a signature for every person on a trust WTF!