Is this a good setup for a new guy?

[Marv_2101]

My plans are to start reloading for a .270, 6.5 creedmoor and 30-06 to start with. I want to make good precision ammo for the 30-06 to reach out to 1000 yards. This is what I had in mind.

-RCBS rock chucker supreme reloading kit.

-Frankford arsenal platinum case prep and trim station.

-RCBS powder trickler.

-308 shell holder and powder thrower bracket.

-Redding Premium full length sizing die and bullet seater.

-Digital calipers and a Hornady lock and load bullet comparator.

-Vibratory case tumbler and media for cleaning cases.

-Chronograph of some sort to measure bullet speed.

-Brass, powder, bullets and primers.

The RCBS kit comes with a reloading manual and a manual beam scale which I’ve heard is more accurate than the digital powder throwers just takes more time which is fine with me as I’ll just be making small batches of ammo to start with. Is there anything you would add or change, open to all suggestions as I don’t know anyone that reloads so I’ll be learning as I go.

 

[Chris1972]

Since you have nobody to mentor you take the time to read through at least two reloading manuals. Then ask a lot of questions, good ones and dumb ones. Get it all out there.

 

[vh20]

Since you have nobody to mentor you take the time to read through at least two reloading manuals. Then ask a lot of questions, good ones and dumb ones. Get it all out there.

Yes, do that - but also some of the best PRECISION reloading info available is archived right here in the Sticky Threads of this section (Reloading Depot) of the forum. Read through all of it!

Regarding your dies, I don't think the Redding Premium sizing die uses bushings to control neck tension. I'd recommend their Type-S full-length sizing die instead. Then throw away the expander ball inside and get yourself an expander mandrel die and the appropriate sized mandrel to uniform your neck tension. Eliminating the expander ball (and replacing it with an expander mandrel die for that purpose) both allows you to control your neck tension, and also generally improves concentricity.

The Redding micrometer sizing die is fine, but a lot of people prefer the Forster Ultra micrometer seating die due to some folks having trouble breaking the seating stems on the Reddings. For every cartridge I load for, I have a Redding Type-S full-length sizing die, and a Forster Ultra seater. I have been experimenting with the M-series dies from Area 419, but that's not for this discussion.

On the FA case prep station, I don't think it uses a VLD-angle for the inside neck chamfer tool. If not, get the VLD one from RCBS. It has the same threads and will screw right in to the same station. I got one with the handle included for less than $20. I removed the handle, screwed the tool into the prep station, and kept the handle handy in case I ever need to use it manually. The VLD-angled chamfer is steeper, and allows for easier, more gentle seating on VLD/Hybrid style bullets used for long range shooting.

Digital calipers - Mitutoyo. Don't be tempted by the cheap ones.

Chronograph - Garmin if it's in the budget (and there are some other very new ones in that price range, but the Garmin is one of the most universally loved products I've ever seen since it came out last year). If budget is tight, you can probably pick up a Labradar in the $200-$250 range from someone who has replaced theirs with a Garmin. Magnetospeed V3s are also available cheap for the same reason, but I never used my Magnetospeed again after I got my Labradar...and I never used my Labradar again after I got my Garmin.

Lapua brass is always hard to beat, as are Berger bullets. For powder, I really don't even consider anything that isn't temperature stable now that there is a wide selection of them that are.

 

[wv.citybilly]

Since you have nobody to mentor you take the time to read through at least two reloading manuals.

Good advice. I didn't have anyone help me, but read a lot (still do).

Internet Archive has online (outdated) books. A local library can through the "inter-library loan system" get more current books. For example, mine helped me get the current Hornady book.

https://archive.org/

 

[Marv_2101]

Yes, do that - but also some of the best PRECISION reloading info available is archived right here in the Sticky Threads of this section (Reloading Depot) of the forum. Read through all of it!

Regarding your dies, I don't think the Redding Premium sizing die uses bushings to control neck tension. I'd recommend their Type-S full-length sizing die instead. Then throw away the expander ball inside and get yourself an expander mandrel die and the appropriate sized mandrel to uniform your neck tension. Eliminating the expander ball (and replacing it with an expander mandrel die for that purpose) both allows you to control your neck tension, and also generally improves concentricity.

The Redding micrometer sizing die is fine, but a lot of people prefer the Forster Ultra micrometer seating die due to some folks having trouble breaking the seating stems on the Reddings. For every cartridge I load for, I have a Redding Type-S full-length sizing die, and a Forster Ultra seater. I have been experimenting with the M-series dies from Area 419, but that's not for this discussion.

On the FA case prep station, I don't think it uses a VLD-angle for the inside neck chamfer tool. If not, get the VLD one from RCBS. It has the same threads and will screw right in to the same station. I got one with the handle included for less than $20. I removed the handle, screwed the tool into the prep station, and kept the handle handy in case I ever need to use it manually. The VLD-angled chamfer is steeper, and allows for easier, more gentle seating on VLD/Hybrid style bullets used for long range shooting.

Digital calipers - Mitutoyo. Don't be tempted by the cheap ones.

Chronograph - Garmin if it's in the budget (and there are some other very new ones in that price range, but the Garmin is one of the most universally loved products I've ever seen since it came out last year). If budget is tight, you can probably pick up a Labradar in the $200-$250 range from someone who has replaced theirs with a Garmin. Magnetospeed V3s are also available cheap for the same reason, but I never used my Magnetospeed again after I got my Labradar...and I never used my Labradar again after I got my Garmin.

Lapua brass is always hard to beat, as are Berger bullets. For powder, I really don't even consider anything that isn't temperature stable now that there is a wide selection of them that are.

Thanks man, budget is a concern but I’m trying to not over complicate things and just get started. I think that’s the biggest step, what’s your thoughts on the rcbs match master dies? I’ve heard not to skimp out on dies if you want to make quality ammo.

 

[Chris1972]

The Redding premiums set you mentioned are good dies. I wouldn’t hesitate to use those.

 

[RegionRat]

open to all suggestions as I don’t know anyone that reloads so I’ll be learning as I go.

For all the time and waste it will save you.... spend a part of your time and resources and find the nearest club that shoots competition of any sort or a club that teaches reloading classes, and get a live mentor to teach you the basic foundations.

It isn't impossible to learn this on your own in a vacuum.... but... I can assure you that for the effort and cost of getting yourself to a "hands on" session or two with a live mentor, your return on investment will be very good.

Once you are past the basic learning curve, then you will have a much better basis to understand what was being written in all the books and forums. Either way...

Good Luck and enjoy the journey.

 

[straightshooter1]

My plans are to start reloading for a .270, 6.5 creedmoor and 30-06 to start with. I want to make good precision ammo for the 30-06 to reach out to 1000 yards. This is what I had in mind.

-RCBS rock chucker supreme reloading kit.

-Frankford arsenal platinum case prep and trim station.

-RCBS powder trickler.

-308 shell holder and powder thrower bracket.

-Redding Premium full length sizing die and bullet seater.

-Digital calipers and a Hornady lock and load bullet comparator.

-Vibratory case tumbler and media for cleaning cases.

-Chronograph of some sort to measure bullet speed.

-Brass, powder, bullets and primers.

The RCBS kit comes with a reloading manual and a manual beam scale which I’ve heard is more accurate than the digital powder throwers just takes more time which is fine with me as I’ll just be making small batches of ammo to start with. Is there anything you would add or change, open to all suggestions as I don’t know anyone that reloads so I’ll be learning as I go.

Since it sounds like you want to go with RCBW, rather than going with the Supreme Kit, I'd recommend going with the Rebel Kit instead for your precisions reloading. IMHO, the Rebel press is a better press do to it being much sturdier.

One of the big things that really helps is a good digital scale. It can make a huge difference on the results you get. You might take a look at one like this that's reasonably affordable.

As you learn to do precision reloading, I'd suggest you focus on one caliber to start with . . . like the 6.5 CM (smaller case volume, using less powder as you go through your learning curve). Once you start to really figure things out (like which tools work best for you and which don't), then you can move on to precision loading for the other cartridges.

Like RegionRat suggests, finding a good mentor at a nearby shooting club is the best way to do as it'll shorten your learning curve and you'll waist less components.

 

[MO Fugga]

Another vote for Forster Ultra dies. Good luck OP!

 

[vh20]

Since it sounds like you want to go with RCBW, rather than going with the Supreme Kit, I'd recommend going with the Rebel Kit instead for your precisions reloading. IMHO, the Rebel press is a better press do to it being much sturdier.

One of the big things that really helps is a good digital scale. It can make a huge difference on the results you get. You might take a look at one like this that's reasonably affordable.

As you learn to do precision reloading, I'd suggest you focus on one caliber to start with . . . like the 6.5 CM (smaller case volume, using less powder as you go through your learning curve). Once you start to really figure things out (like which tools work best for you and which don't), then you can move on to precision loading for the other cartridges.

Like RegionRat suggests, finding a good mentor at a nearby shooting club is the best way to do as it'll shorten your learning curve and you'll waist less components.

That’s a good point about learning and honing your skills on one cartridge before moving on to the others, and of those listed the 6.5 is the Easy Button for 1000 yds. H4350 is a no-brainer for the 6.5, paired with a Berger 140 or 144 hybrid (or even a Hornady 140 ELD), and you’ll be in high cotton very quickly.
A question for @straightshooter1 : how does that scale compare to the FX120i? I will say this, when I moved from a balance scale (a VERY accurate one) to the FX120i, it was a quantum leap, so I agree it would make the OP’s life a ton easier if that scale is as stable and accurate as the FX120i.

 

[straightshooter1]

That’s a good point about learning and honing your skills on one cartridge before moving on to the others, and of those listed the 6.5 is the Easy Button for 1000 yds. H4350 is a no-brainer for the 6.5, paired with a Berger 140 or 144 hybrid (or even a Hornady 140 ELD), and you’ll be in high cotton very quickly.
A question for @straightshooter1 : how does that scale compare to the FX120i? I will say this, when I moved from a balance scale (a VERY accurate one) to the FX120i, it was a quantum leap, so I agree it would make the OP’s life a ton easier if that scale is as stable and accurate as the FX120i.

I've only heard from other shooters about the A&D EJ-303 as it compares to the FX-120i, where they report a good experience with it. It's been reported that it's not quite as fast or quite as stable as the 120i, but it's accurate and gets the job done well and better than most digitals. . . .it can run on batteries. I have an FX-120i that I just love, but it might be just a bit too pricy for the OP??? Even the 303 might be stretching it for him???

 

[RegionRat]

. . .it can run on batteries

This is the biggest advantage of the EJ-303. It is a smaller unit and the portability lends it to loading at the range.

 

[6.5SH]

My plans are to start reloading for a .270, 6.5 creedmoor and 30-06 to start with. I want to make good precision ammo for the 30-06 to reach out to 1000 yards. This is what I had in mind.

-RCBS rock chucker supreme reloading kit.

-Frankford arsenal platinum case prep and trim station.

-RCBS powder trickler.

-308 shell holder and powder thrower bracket.

-Redding Premium full length sizing die and bullet seater.

-Digital calipers and a Hornady lock and load bullet comparator.

-Vibratory case tumbler and media for cleaning cases.

-Chronograph of some sort to measure bullet speed.

-Brass, powder, bullets and primers.

The RCBS kit comes with a reloading manual and a manual beam scale which I’ve heard is more accurate than the digital powder throwers just takes more time which is fine with me as I’ll just be making small batches of ammo to start with. Is there anything you would add or change, open to all suggestions as I don’t know anyone that reloads so I’ll be learning as I go.

Look for this class in your area if you don't have a friend or mentor to get your started:

NRA Training

www.nrainstructors.org

NRA Training

www.nrainstructors.org

 

[99mpower]

huge fan of the Redding T-7 over the rock chucker

still a single stage press, but allows you to “set and forget” dies much easier

i sold both my Rock Chuckers and went T-7 with and extra turret or two, and my life is MICH better now

 

[WasNH4X]

At OP, how far north south east or west from Jack town are you........if not too far, I may be able to help you out.

Add some form of book and pin to your list and take notes,measurements ect.......write it ALL down....thank me later.

 

[kthomas]

This Modern Day Sniper online reloading course starts today, and would be a great investment for a new reloader:

Event Details

www.moderndaysniper.shop

If you can't attend live, the sessions are recorded and available anytime afterwards for you to watch/review.

You may think that its not cheap, but having someone guide you through the reloading process is invaluable.

 

[Doom]

Learning to reload takes some effort. It not just the mechanics but learning the terminology and developing the process that fits your level of effort to fit your purpose. It's hard to hit the ground running, especially without a mentor or at least some defined program of instruction. Reading about reloading on the Internet forums can ultimately lead to confusion and unnecessary effort if the reloader isn't careful.

Trying to incorporate some of the things that a bench rest shooter does is not worth the time, effort, and or the expense if the reloader is reloading for a 6-1/2 lb 30-06 hunting rifle. If you are shooting custom rifles and are a top 1% shooter then almost everything matters.

Part of this thread has drifted toward scales and I will offer some information that will probably get me roasted. The Fx-120i is a great scale. a $600 great scale that some think can measure to a single grain of powder which isn't correct but that isn't the point. There are other scales that can get get the same or similar resolution and precision for about half the price but with longer response times. Then there are other 0.1 grain resolution scales that can be had for as little as $100 or less. My point here is that you have a choice and while the Fx-120i may be appropriate for some uses it can be gross overkill in others.

 

[vh20]

Learning to reload takes some effort. It not just the mechanics but learning the terminology and developing the process that fits your level of effort to fit your purpose. It's hard to hit the ground running, especially without a mentor or at least some defined program of instruction. Reading about reloading on the Internet forums can ultimately lead to confusion and unnecessary effort if the reloader isn't careful.

Trying to incorporate some of the things that a bench rest shooter does is not worth the time, effort, and or the expense if the reloader is reloading for a 6-1/2 lb 30-06 hunting rifle. If you are shooting custom rifles and are a top 1% shooter then almost everything matters.

Part of this thread has drifted toward scales and I will offer some information that will probably get me roasted. The Fx-120i is a great scale. a $600 great scale that some think can measure to a single grain of powder which isn't correct but that isn't the point. There are other scales that can get get the same or similar resolution and precision for about half the price but with longer response times. Then there are other 0.1 grain resolution scales that can be had for as little as $100 or less. My point here is that you have a choice and while the Fx-120i may be appropriate for some uses it can be gross overkill in others.

I wouldn't argue anything you said above except one thing - you said the FX 120i can't measure "a single grain of powder" (you meant kernel I will assume, but that's beside the point). If you're talking ball/flake powders that might be correct, but for stick powders (which are the most common in precision rifle loads) what evidence do you have that it can't? The scale has a resolution of 0.02gr, and the average stick powder weighs between 0.02-0.04gr. My cup weighs 727.22gr every time it hits the scale, day-in, day-out. If I zero the scale with the cup on the platen and take the cup off, it will register -727.22gr off, and back to 0.00 when I put it back on, day-in, day-out. If I place a single kernel of my powder in the cup, which averages 0.04gr/kernel, it will register the single kernel as 0.02-0.04gr every time, which is within the resolution of the scale. Why do we think it isn't correct that it can't measure to a single kernel accurately (to within 1/2 a single kernel, which we can't do anything about unless we're so obsessed as to start splitting single kernels, which will have no measurable effect on the performance of the load)?

 

[Harman117]

If you haven't seen this video already, it does a good job at assessing a similar "kit" like the one you are considering:



They (the channel) also have a website and online courses too if thats something you're looking into.

Edit: Add the Hornady Headspace Comparator to your list too if you haven't already. I see the bullet comparator, but you should really have both

 

[Doom]

I wouldn't argue anything you said above except one thing - you said the FX 120i can't measure "a single grain of powder" (you meant kernel I will assume, but that's beside the point). If you're talking ball/flake powders that might be correct, but for stick powders (which are the most common in precision rifle loads) what evidence do you have that it can't? The scale has a resolution of 0.02gr, and the average stick powder weighs between 0.02-0.04gr. My cup weighs 727.22gr every time it hits the scale, day-in, day-out. If I zero the scale with the cup on the platen and take the cup off, it will register -727.22gr off, and back to 0.00 when I put it back on, day-in, day-out. If I place a single kernel of my powder in the cup, which averages 0.04gr/kernel, it will register the single kernel as 0.02-0.04gr every time, which is within the resolution of the scale. Why do we think it isn't correct that it can't measure to a single kernel accurately (to within 1/2 a single kernel, which we can't do anything about unless we're so obsessed as to start splitting single kernels, which will have no measurable effect on the performance of the load)?

Yep, Kernel. Actually the resolution is 0.02 grains so the scale can drift up to 0.019 gr and you will not know it. But the scale repeatability is 0.001 grams or .01543 gns (1 standard deviation). For 95% repeatability that is 2x.01543gn or .031 gn. So the actual repeatability of the scale is 0.02 gn+/-.031gn or 0.05gn. It is not 0.02 gn. Note: this is repeatability not total accuracy. That would be 0.02+ sqrt(.031^2+.031^2) =0.064gn which is not important to our case. Now to your point. In a short term weighing you pan over and over you may well see the pan repeat very well. And I won't dispute that my calculation is based on data specified by the manufacturer. His data is based on detailed testing of the scale under controlled testing. But to the fact, does 1 kernel mean anything? It equates to about 2.7 fps in a 308.

Does all this really matter? I doubt that if you were to measure 2 sets of 20 charges with an indicated weight difference of 0.04 grains you would be able to see the difference on the chronograph or on target at 1000yds. On a 308 it's about 1" @ 1000yds, even less with a 6.5CM.

 

[Im2bent]

There are a ton of youtube videos on reloading basics. If you can afford it buy the digital scale now you can add an autotrickler later.

 

[secondofangle2]

That Frankfurt Arsenal case prep station may be a waste of money. Most functions are not needed every session and can be done with cheap hand tools.

And you don’t need premium dies or micrometer seating stems. Any run of the mill (eg RCBS) FL die set will be fine. My profile pic 50 BMG group was loaded with RCBS dies. I only got nicer ones for bling after reloading w the RCBS for 10 years. (Been reloading for almost 35 years now overall)

and you don’t need digital or expensive calipers. $20 SS Made in China calipers will last a lifetime and be perfectly fine. I have Any Time Tool ones from Amazon. I remember a guy getting into reloading 15 years ago and he thought Starrett calipers and measuring to a fraction of .001” was going to make all the difference. It doesn’t. Just have a consistent process and everything will be uniform enough, and .02 diff in COAL both is inevitable and irrelevant.

A good scale is def worth it and so is the Garmin. Thats where I would spend my $$$ as they are head and shoulders above the alternatives.

The most important thing to shoot well, is a good barrel, a good bullet, a good load, which is usually a known good load, and a consistent velocity, which comes from a good load and a good scale measured by a good chronograph all performed by a good shooter. And none of that depends on what kind of die or micrometer you use.

 

[Marv_2101]

That Frankfurt Arsenal case prep station may be a waste of money. Most functions are not needed every session and can be done with cheap hand tools.

And you don’t need premium dies or micrometer seating stems. Any run of the mill (eg RCBS) FL die set will be fine. My profile pic 50 BMG group was loaded with RCBS dies. I only got nicer ones for bling after reloading w the RCBS for 10 years. (Been reloading for almost 35 years now overall)

and you don’t need digital or expensive calipers. $20 SS Made in China calipers will last a lifetime and be perfectly fine. I have Any Time Tool ones from Amazon. I remember a guy getting into reloading 15 years ago and he thought Starrett calipers and measuring to a fraction of .001” was going to make all the difference. It doesn’t. Just have a consistent process and everything will be uniform enough, and .02 diff in COAL both is inevitable and irrelevant.

A good scale is def worth it and so is the Garmin. Thats where I would spend my $$$ as they are head and shoulders above the alternatives.

The most important thing to shoot well, is a good barrel, a good bullet, a good load, which is usually a known good load, and a consistent velocity, which comes from a good load and a good scale measured by a good chronograph all performed by a good shooter. And none of that depends on what kind of die or micrometer you use.

Thanks for simplifying it man. I’ll start with the basic dies for my rifles and go from there.

As far and chamfer and deburring tools go I know they can be had for cheap but what about a case trimmer? Ive been looking at the LE Wilson manual case trimmer.

Powder measure recommendations? I don’t mind spending a little extra here but keep in mind I’m new to it. So a $1500 powder thrower seems insane to me at this point and I want to make sure I stick with it. Rcbs charge master link and the supreme is what I’ve looked at.

 

[secondofangle2]

Scale: I’d get any one to start (even an $50 digital one from Hornady or RCBS) and try to save up for an A&D 120i. Or maybe the creedmore if you think the 120 is just not in the budget. It and the 120 can be coupled w IP system later if it ever comes out (looking like 2028 LOL). I’m not sure I’d mess w a chargemaster. can do as well by hand even though it’s tedious. Judgment call

Thrower I’d just get an RCBS uniflow and hand trickle up to final charge

You don’t need to trim till after several firings. I’d wait till I needed to trim and figure it out then and consider the Giraud tri-way trimmer

 

[vh20]

That Frankfurt Arsenal case prep station may be a waste of money. Most functions are not needed every session and can be done with cheap hand tools.

And you don’t need premium dies or micrometer seating stems. Any run of the mill (eg RCBS) FL die set will be fine. My profile pic 50 BMG group was loaded with RCBS dies. I only got nicer ones for bling after reloading w the RCBS for 10 years. (Been reloading for almost 35 years now overall)

and you don’t need digital or expensive calipers. $20 SS Made in China calipers will last a lifetime and be perfectly fine. I have Any Time Tool ones from Amazon. I remember a guy getting into reloading 15 years ago and he thought Starrett calipers and measuring to a fraction of .001” was going to make all the difference. It doesn’t. Just have a consistent process and everything will be uniform enough, and .02 diff in COAL both is inevitable and irrelevant.

A good scale is def worth it and so is the Garmin. Thats where I would spend my $$$ as they are head and shoulders above the alternatives.

The most important thing to shoot well, is a good barrel, a good bullet, a good load, which is usually a known good load, and a consistent velocity, which comes from a good load and a good scale measured by a good chronograph all performed by a good shooter. And none of that depends on what kind of die or micrometer you use.

Can’t really argue with any of that, in terms of final results. Some of the other things suggested will make life easier, though. We just trade cost for ease of use/time. And yes, I used Harbor Freight dial calipers ($10-ish) for years with no ill effects, but I think the Mitutoyos are worth what they cost (and not a big outlay comparatively). I would DEFINITELY pick an A&D FX120i and hand throw/trickle over a cheap scale, or Chargemaster, etc. It doesn’t drift, you can trust what it gives you, and you can use it with the latest, hottest, most modern thrower/tricklers later on. You don’t have to have one to start making decent ammo, but you’ll probably end up with one eventually, so cheaper in the long run.

And I will say again, if you’re going to be buying a deburr/chamfer tool, get one with the VLD angle.

 

[wv.citybilly]

? Ive been looking at the LE Wilson manual case trimmer.

LE Wilson Case Trimmer, Stand, with Micrometer is a good pick. I also have from them, Case Mouth Burring Tool, and Burring Tool Power Adaptor.

Pricey, but it's the most exact equipment I own.

 

[secondofangle2]

I mean, if we’re going to talk about premium tremors there is the G.I. RAUD, and the Henderson. But I loaded for 20 years without them and anyone else can too.

My comments were suggestion for someone starting out and trying to maximize value for dollar

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Good list.

Start slow and read the books.

Find someone to shadow if you can.

But you are off to a Good start!

Lots of us who learned to load back in the ‘80’s had no support… obviously no internet. And just the reloading manuals. And we figured it out!!

A ton more details and gear available now. Some great.. some just retarded. But all worth reading and absorbing.

Best of luck and post those groups!!!

Sirhr

 

[WasNH4X]

Good list.

Start slow and read the books.

Find someone to shadow if you can.

But you are off to a Good start!

Lots of us who learned to old backing the ‘80’s had no support… obviously non internet. And just the reload manuals. And we figured it out!!

A ton more details and gear available now. Some great.. some just retarded. But all worth reading and absorbing.

Best of luck and post those groups!!!

Sirhr

I kinda hinted that ,if not too far from me, that I might would help him get started ,as a "pay back " to Mr. Owen ,who helped me get started in 76. Haven't had any response........maybe he missed?

 

[Marv_2101]

At OP, how far north south east or west from Jack town are you........if not too far, I may be able to help you out.

Add some form of book and pin to your list and take notes,measurements ect.......write it ALL down....thank me later.

My apologies sir I must have looked over your post but I’m about 40 minutes north of Jackson not to terribly far.

 

[WasNH4X]

My apologies sir I must have looked over your post but I’m about 40 minutes north of Jackson not to terribly far.

No problem

PM me , the distance is doable........I would be happy to show you the basics and help in any way.

 

[OkieMike]

A few recommendations. And some insights that don't necessarily apply to brand X reloading gear...

Reloading manual(s). The more the merrier. The free online load data helps with that.

The best components (brass/bullets/powder/primers) that are available... Lapua brass/Berger bullets/Temp stable powders. Primers are a crap shoot due to availability.

A good set of digital calipers. Hard to beat Mitutoyo.

The absolute best scale you can afford.

A way to anneal your brass.

Take prodigious notes. Write down what you did. If you don't, you WILL forget... I fill out a data card for every batch of reloads I make... What the components are and what their lot # is. CBTO/OAL... The works. And after each shooting session I staple that data card to its respective target.

Keeping records takes an additional 5 minutes. But it will save you time, effort, and money later on. Repeating a test batch because you forgot what worked so well previously is time, effort, and components (money) wasted.

Keep goals/expectations reasonable. If you have a rifle that averages 2" groups at 100 yards with several different iterations of factory ammo... Reloading for it will only improve it so much... You might be able to get it down to a 1.25" rifle with hand loads. Your chances of turning it into a 1/2" gun are exceptionally small.

Keep your equipment in top shape... Spending an afternoon shooting a batch of hand loads with crappy groups is discouraging... Even more discouraging is when you're packing up to leave, you discover your scope was loose. Maybe you had a good recipe but a loose scope just threw all that time/effort out the window. That's a bullshit way to spend an afternoon. Been there. Done that.

Mike

 

[RegionRat]

The best components (brass/bullets/powder/primers) that are available... Lapua brass/Berger bullets/Temp stable powders.

+1
Always best if a beginner starts with a "Pet Load" of known good performance in any given context.

We have had a pattern on the forums where a beginner grabs mismatched components because they caught them on sale, then has a bad time because the materials are a challenge.

Best to focus as much on a good starting recipe as it is on the equipment.

In fact when we have the time and inclination, we start rookies with something like low pressure 38 Special before we show them bottleneck rifle work.

That gives them a chance to digest some of the basics and gain some confidence/experience and feel in the loading environment before they dive into more difficult bottleneck case prep work. YMMV

 

[McPotty]

My plans are to start reloading for a .270, 6.5 creedmoor and 30-06 to start with. I want to make good precision ammo for the 30-06 to reach out to 1000 yards. This is what I had in mind.

-RCBS rock chucker supreme reloading kit.

-Frankford arsenal platinum case prep and trim station.

-RCBS powder trickler.

-308 shell holder and powder thrower bracket.

-Redding Premium full length sizing die and bullet seater.

-Digital calipers and a Hornady lock and load bullet comparator.

-Vibratory case tumbler and media for cleaning cases.

-Chronograph of some sort to measure bullet speed.

-Brass, powder, bullets and primers.

The RCBS kit comes with a reloading manual and a manual beam scale which I’ve heard is more accurate than the digital powder throwers just takes more time which is fine with me as I’ll just be making small batches of ammo to start with. Is there anything you would add or change, open to all suggestions as I don’t know anyone that reloads so I’ll be learning as I go.

I just started reloading about a month or two ago and here's what I've found out so far.
1) The advice on reading through multiple manuals may be becoming the stuff of Fudd lore. Yes there is a lot of good information on how to safely reload but you don't need to read the same thing 2 or 3 different ways; take your time and pay attention to what you're doing. The main difference is going to be the brands of powders and bullets covered so look at what's available in your area or online from your chosen website first or you could possibly end up buying a manual that has no useable load data for you.
2) A kit is kind of like electric vehicles and socialism. It sounds great in theory but sucks in practice. I bought the Lee Challenger 50th Anniversary kit and the only parts of it I'm still using are the press itself, the powder measure, and the funnel. I use a Lyman digital scale, universal trimmer, chamfer/debur tool, and reloading rack along with Hornady dies, shell holder, and One Shot lube.
I don't have a tumbler or annealer just yet but it's in the list.
3) Things you'll probably need at some point are a bullet puller- I use a kinetic hammer style but I've been lucky that the only time I've needed it so far was when I was getting my seating die set up -, and a stuck case remover - it's an inevitablility that you'll under lube a case or that one will get stuck for another reason.

As for a chronograph, I know the Garmin Xero is the new hotness but my Magneto speed has never let me down.


I know some of the old hats might be getting ready to shit on my choices but everyone starts somewhere and I'm also not gunning to shoot butthole sized groups at 2 miles. My goal is far less ambitious; reliable hits at 800-1000 with my .308

 

[vh20]

I just started reloading about a month or two ago and here's what I've found out so far.

This is a pretty astute post for someone at your stage of the game, so I will say it was well done. However, there are a few things you will probably come to realize:

1) The advice on reading through multiple manuals may be becoming the stuff of Fudd lore. Yes there is a lot of good information on how to safely reload but you don't need to read the same thing 2 or 3 different ways; take your time and pay attention to what you're doing. The main difference is going to be the brands of powders and bullets covered so look at what's available in your area or online from your chosen website first or you could possibly end up buying a manual that has no useable load data for you.

Yes, The reloading manuals are great for explaining how to safely reload, but pretty sparse on information for the types of things we need to know for "precision reloading". Once you have the basics down of how to safely reload, the finer details of precision reloading come from places like here. Things like how to measure and control shoulder-bump, neck tension, seating depth as it relates to the lands of your barrel, etc, were not really covered in the standard reloading manuals I initially learned from (I haven't looked at a manual for the "process" of reloading in decades, so maybe they've changed, but none of the stuff I just mentioned was covered in them back then). Once you get your process down, the manuals are really only consulted for data as it relates to Min/Max data for a specific powder/bullet combo. That data is usually available simply by emailing the bullet or powder manufacturer, or checking their data posted online. The data for my last three load-development work-ups were obtained by simply emailing Berger and asking for it, and it was readily provided (300PRC/230 Berger Hybrid/Retumbo, 300NM/245 Berger Hybrid/Retumbo, and 338NM/300gr Berger Hybrid/Retumbo.

2) A kit is kind of like electric vehicles and socialism. It sounds great in theory but sucks in practice. I bought the Lee Challenger 50th Anniversary kit and the only parts of it I'm still using are the press itself, the powder measure, and the funnel. I use a Lyman digital scale, universal trimmer, chamfer/debur tool, and reloading rack along with Hornady dies, shell holder, and One Shot lube.
I don't have a tumbler or annealer just yet but it's in the list.

True. The things in most kits will get you through most of the things described in the manuals, but to get into true precision reloading, you will eventually end up replacing most of it.

3) Things you'll probably need at some point are a bullet puller- I use a kinetic hammer style but I've been lucky that the only time I've needed it so far was when I was getting my seating die set up -, and a stuck case remover - it's an inevitablility that you'll under lube a case or that one will get stuck for another reason.

I started with Speer Reloading Manual #10, way back in the late '70s. It compared the bullet puller to an eraser on a pencil - it's there to fix your mistakes. I haven't had to use one very often, but it is worth having when you need it. I hope I never need a stuck case remover, but I would probably fashion my own when the time comes. I may draw fire from its dedicated users, but it has been my personal observation that a larger proportion of "stuck case" threads mention the use of Hornady One-Shot lube. YMMV.

As for a chronograph, I know the Garmin Xero is the new hotness but my Magneto speed has never let me down.

The Magnetospeed will give you solid, reliable data (as good as any of the others available). But it is cumbersome to use, and will affect your zero and often your group size as well. When you get into really pushing the distance limits, it is very useful to have data on every shot from a unit that doesn't affect where that shot lands, so you will need (and love) one of the doppler units for that.

I know some of the old hats might be getting ready to shit on my choices but everyone starts somewhere and I'm also not gunning to shoot butthole sized groups at 2 miles. My goal is far less ambitious; reliable hits at 800-1000 with my .308

I doubt the old hats will do that, because most of us have been there, and had to learn how to progress. Your current goal isn't that far of a reach with your current equipment, and attention to detail, but this is an addictive sport. Once you have realized that goal you will inevitably want to go beyond that, and that's when you will need to look at upgrading equipment and refining your process. And if you really get bitten hard by "the bug" and want to shoot more and more, you'll want to look into more expensive units that can deliver extreme precision AND increase your productivity at the same time.

 

[McPotty]

Thanks for the reply and the encouragement.
The first chapter of two of the manual deals a lot with terminology, equipment, and stresses basic safety like not exceeding max loads, not reloading when you're tired, don't drink, etc. The one I have -Nosler 9 touches on pressure signs, and has a short "step by step" for the reloading procedure.

When I'm using my chrono it's strictly for data. The first 20 rounds I loaded were a ladder style test for groups. Surprisingly, I found 2 back to back (40.6 and 40.8) that stacked on each other-literally; so I figured I had found a node. The next set I loaded were for data. From that I chrono'd 10 shots and got a MV average of 2460, ES of 23, and SD of 9 IIRC. After that I zeroed and reset my turrets. Perhaps, after I reach my initial goal; if want to go farther I'll invest in a doppler unit and a Kestrel.

The three "fliers" under the caliper (in the immortal words of Paul Harrell) are just me and yes that's very annoying.

The lube I was using when the stuck case happened was the Lee paste style that came with the kit. It's possible I've been over-lubing the cases and maybe there was already a layer of build up inside the die but after removing the case, cleaning the die, and spraying the inside per the One Shot instructions sizing/decapping does feel smoother.

One question though; I've seen many videos where people measure groups center to center. I've been going edge to edge then subtracting the caliber: 0.9765-.308=0.6685 (or 0.67"). Am I measuring correctly or is it just a matter of taste?

 

[vh20]

One question though; I've seen many videos where people measure groups center to center. I've been going edge to edge then subtracting the caliber: 0.9765-.308=0.6685 (or 0.67"). Am I measuring correctly or is it just a matter of taste?

You'll probably get different answers based on individual preferences, but I believe if you try both methods on several groups you'll find that measuring edge-to-edge and subtracting the bullet diameter will give you a slightly smaller number than CAREFULLY measuring center-to-center (which would be more accurate). The reason is the holes in paper (as you see them) always seem to be slightly less than bullet diameter. I try to measure center-to-center now, but the difference is slight.

 

[Southern Custom]

Before you go down this rabbit hole too far, and blame fliers on yourself, it’s worth it to listen to the Hornady podacasts when the subject is reloading. They’ve been down that dark hole and have the data that matters and more importantly might elimate some steps that don’t matter. I crawled down that hole 20 years ago and only just recently came back into the light of day and I have simplified and streamlined my process significantly. I also own a whole bunch of stuff that I’d been better off not buying. Though it is a learning curve. And luckily these days it’s easier than ever to find a mentor to help with fundamentals. Even if it’s just checking in here to confirm your process and results. Good luck with it. You’re likely screwed for life and trying to convince yourself that the ammo will be cheaper now. It may or may not be, but if, like me, you are the consummate tinkerer, you’ll have fun doing it.

 

[McPotty]

Before you go down this rabbit hole too far, and blame fliers on yourself, it’s worth it to listen to the Hornady podacasts when the subject is reloading. They’ve been down that dark hole and have the data that matters and more importantly might elimate some steps that don’t matter. I crawled down that hole 20 years ago and only just recently came back into the light of day and I have simplified and streamlined my process significantly. I also own a whole bunch of stuff that I’d been better off not buying. Though it is a learning curve. And luckily these days it’s easier than ever to find a mentor to help with fundamentals. Even if it’s just checking in here to confirm your process and results. Good luck with it. You’re likely screwed for life and trying to convince yourself that the ammo will be cheaper now. It may or may not be, but if, like me, you are the consummate tinkerer, you’ll have fun doing it.

No worries there. I first thought about reloading during a deployment in 2009. Since then I've gone back and forth about and finally got into it. My components at this point are:
Once fired (from my rifle) PPU brass
Ginex LRP Primers
Vita Vhouri N140
Hornady ELDM 168gr

My set up I listed earlier, and my process is:
Wipe down (no tumbler yet)
FL size/de-prime
Trim
De-bur, chamfer, clean primer pocket
Prime
Charge
Seat
Measure

I'm not sure where in the process I should anneal once I get an annealer. Would it be before or after sizing. Seems like it should be after since it negates some of the point to soften the brass then immediately work it.

I'm only trimming at this point to make sure my cases are a uniform length. I plan to measure them every couple of firings to see if they need it then trim the ones that do. If they don't that step would be skipped. I also don't have a chamber gauges or anything to find the lands other than barely seating a bullet and jamming it into the chamber. I'm really not worried about it at this point. I feed from a magazine so that dictates my longest OAL. Are those things even need for where I'm at?

The rifle I'm using for all this is a Savage Axis in a MDT Orix chassis, Arken SH4 4-16x50 and a Harris bipod I've had for like 18 years or so. Rifle internals are stock except the addition of the MCARBO trigger kit.

I'm not under any big illusions that I'm going to save money on ammo or even break even on the cost of equipment and components- it's just not mathematically possible. Since I have no idea how much of the cost of factory ammo goes to the cases though, I'm not (maybe wrongfully) including it in what my estimated cost/rd is reloading. Factory ammo I was using ran 1.20+ and my reloads run around 0.85. Good brass (Starline, Lapua, etc) runs at least 0.50/cs so that would make it more expensive.

Honestly, I try not to think about it in those terms anyway. Getting wrapped around the axles on the minutiae is what turns an enjoyable hobby into work.

Thanks again for the help I'll look into measuring center to center; I've still got those targets, and I'll look up some Hornady podcasts.
Sorry OP, I didn't mean to hijack the thread.

 

[kthomas]

Thanks for the reply and the encouragement.
The first chapter of two of the manual deals a lot with terminology, equipment, and stresses basic safety like not exceeding max loads, not reloading when you're tired, don't drink, etc. The one I have -Nosler 9 touches on pressure signs, and has a short "step by step" for the reloading procedure.

When I'm using my chrono it's strictly for data. The first 20 rounds I loaded were a ladder style test for groups. Surprisingly, I found 2 back to back (40.6 and 40.8) that stacked on each other-literally; so I figured I had found a node. The next set I loaded were for data. From that I chrono'd 10 shots and got a MV average of 2460, ES of 23, and SD of 9 IIRC. After that I zeroed and reset my turrets. Perhaps, after I reach my initial goal; if want to go farther I'll invest in a doppler unit and a Kestrel.

The three "fliers" under the caliper (in the immortal words of Paul Harrell) are just me and yes that's very annoying.

The lube I was using when the stuck case happened was the Lee paste style that came with the kit. It's possible I've been over-lubing the cases and maybe there was already a layer of build up inside the die but after removing the case, cleaning the die, and spraying the inside per the One Shot instructions sizing/decapping does feel smoother.

One question though; I've seen many videos where people measure groups center to center. I've been going edge to edge then subtracting the caliber: 0.9765-.308=0.6685 (or 0.67"). Am I measuring correctly or is it just a matter of taste?

Looks like you are on the right track.

For measuring groups, you can do it either way. Edge to edge and subtract caliber, or go center to center. Both are imperfect, both work for what we do.

I wouldn't get too hung-up on any perceivable "nodes" - reloaders love to use small datasets that lead to false conclusions.

An SD of 9 and ES of 23 is very good ammo, so you are well on your way! Just keep focusing on making ammo as consistent as possible with your process. Once you get more and more comfortable with the process of reloading, you can start branching out and experimenting with different variables to see what does and doesn't make a difference - just keep in mind the follies of small sample sizes. For now, I think sticking to what you are doing and making ammo as precise and consistent within that should be the focus.

 

[spife7980]

I'm not sure where in the process I should anneal once I get an annealer. Would it be before or after sizing. Seems like it should be after since it negates some of the point to soften the brass then immediately work it.

Anneal before, that way the brass is more apt to stay where it is sized to rather than springing back towards the fired size.

 

[vh20]

Anneal before, that way the brass is more apt to stay where it is sized to rather than springing back towards the fired size.

Yes. If annealing, it should be the first step.

 

[RegionRat]

Just FYI, some nightstand reading. These articles are part of a series of surveys taken of PRS shooters.

This particular one asked them about some of their reloading equipment. YMMV

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2024...the-pros-use/?jetpack_skip_subscription_popup

 

[McPotty]

The RCBS was the only other press I was seriously considering. All my choices were based either on price or availability- sometimes both. I knew going into it that I'd upgrade the dies at the very least over time, but at $375 (at the time this article was published) the SAC seating die is most likely going to remain in the realm of the pros. I'm sure it's worth the price, a large portion of which I'm sure is due to the Mitutoyo micrometer. That's a name I've seen come up a lot when the discussion is on calipers.

I've read A LOT about shoulder bump and so far I've largely ignored it because I'm not sure that I nor the dies I'm currently using are capable of adjusting 0.002". Is it THAT critical? If the case is going to swell to the dimensions of the chamber what is it affecting? Is it just to ensure your round will chamber in case dust/sand gets blown in while you're waiting behind the firing line?

One thing I didn't see in the article was the "why". Why do a majority of pros use the RCBS? Is it because the action is smoother? Is it because of the brands reputation? Is it because that's what they started with? I was a little surprised though that they stuck with single stage presses for the most part. I really thought they'd have moved to progressives just because of the sheer volume of their shooting.

I also started the attached Hornady podcast and it sounds like no matter what; no one's right is truly 1/4 moa and realistically, everyone has roughly a 3/4 -1 moa setup. I'm probably missing something and once I finish it I'm going to listen to it another time or two. Some things I still don't understand about SD:

If it's a "standard" deviation; what is the standard (top of the bell curve) we're deviating from? Is it a set fps or does every fps = 1 standard deviation? I'm not trying to get too into the weeds. "Lower is better" is simple enough for me; I just want to understand the terminology.

 

[RegionRat]

I've read A LOT about shoulder bump and so far I've largely ignored it because I'm not sure that I nor the dies I'm currently using are capable of adjusting 0.002". Is it THAT critical? If the case is going to swell to the dimensions of the chamber what is it affecting? Is it just to ensure your round will chamber in case dust/sand gets blown in while you're waiting behind the firing line?

Yes, sizing your brass with care and workmanship is important in three ways.
One is the reliability of feeding. This doesn't need too much explanation.
Two is the precision of the performance. The shape of the total pressure pulse is affected by the start, and that is determined by how well we control the primer and the grip on the bullet. Further, some energy is wasted on the expansion and heating of the case, and we want that the same every time.
Three, is the life of the case. The amount of cold work is part of what fatigues the case.

You can just use your rifle's chamber as the starting point to learing to minimally size your brass. However, I recommend you pull the specs for your cartridge/chamber and slowly learn to inspect the critical dimensions as you go. I recommend owning the GoGage for rookies, but that is a longer discussion. There is more to this than just getting the headspace right.

U Can Do This!
Don't worry about the cost of your sizing die, but do remember to think long term about the investment in yourself and your instruments. A good 0"-1" micrometer is an instrument you will keep a lifetime, and not the place to skimp.
A good caliper isn't going to hurt you either, and I recommend having two, a cheap daily set and the one you protect for critical work.

If you were never taught or trained in a shop environment, just grab a set of inexpensive digital calipers. They are cheap these days and you will probably kill one or two before you learn to protect them. You will know when it is time to grab the Mitutoyo calipers but you certainly don't need them to start.

One thing I didn't see in the article was the "why". Why do a majority of pros use the RCBS? Is it because the action is smoother? Is it because of the brands reputation? Is it because that's what they started with? I was a little surprised though that they stuck with single stage presses for the most part. I really thought they'd have moved to progressives just because of the sheer volume of their shooting.

The RCBS Rockchucker is a basic tool. It is made "well enough" that it lasts a lifetime and doesn't interfere with getting work done. It is not the best by any measure, but even those of us who have the means for the far more expensive ones, well most of us still find ourselves with one or two Rockchuckers.

Don't get too distracted with the survey. Just get some time on the trigger and the loading bench stuff will make more sense to you after some time. Setting up the process many times by starting with smaller sets of brass will help you gain confidence and know what you are doing before you do larger batches. The folks in those surveys have their process work flow figured out from years of experience. Give yourself time to learn this and get a live mentor if at all possible. YMMV Good Luck!

 

[RegionRat]

I also started the attached Hornady podcast and it sounds like no matter what; no one's right is truly 1/4 moa and realistically, everyone has roughly a 3/4 -1 moa setup. I'm probably missing something and once I finish it I'm going to listen to it another time or two. Some things I still don't understand about SD:

If it's a "standard" deviation; what is the standard (top of the bell curve) we're deviating from? Is it a set fps or does every fps = 1 standard deviation? I'm not trying to get too into the weeds. "Lower is better" is simple enough for me; I just want to understand the terminology.

Quarter MOA in a true sense is rare. Even Bench Rest competitions have many many groups well over 3's and 4's, and real 1/4 MOA is very rare if we are talking about "stand and deliver" performance without excuses or throwing out targets.

If at all possible, I would recommend attending and observing at a major well attended BR competition, short or long range.

Given an open forum, where the vast majority of the time folks forget to name their context, it is hard to keep some terminology like rifle performance statistics on track. Do we mean one three or five shot group, or the composite of 30 or more shots? Are wind flags, sighters, and steering the gun allowed, or are we talking a single aimpoint? I could go on and on.

In my life, the contracts would get clarified if there wasn't an obvious specification or standard definition. Heavy Weapons and Small Arms had lots of overlap in how the things that we call accuracy and precision were tested. Open forums can drive folks like me nuts, but it is a short trip.....

You seem like you have the aptitude to grab a 100-Level stats text book and get rolling. You don't need to finish the whole thing, but at least the concepts of data dispersion, average, mean, median, probability, standard deviation, just to name a few.

The words "standard deviation" apply only when we have what we call a normal distribution or Gaussian distribution. It is a common thing in nature, but not all dispersion patterns are "normal".

For now, let us just say that the entry level discussion of the ballistic dispersion of a flat fire rifle shot fall pattern is assumed to be a "normal distribution". (I won't make your heads spin, but in reality very few real world dispersion patterns are actually "normal", but they are close enough.)

The word "standard" is implied to mean standard of a normal distribution. The mathematical terminology was set by a guy named Karl Pearson back in the late 1800's. It is just the square root of the variance but it sure is handy to help describe the shape of a "bell curve".

If you have the interest in investing in yourself, grab the text books and get started. It isn't really difficult to learn basic stats and statistical process controls. In WW2 and the aftermath, they taught peasants to do averages and standard deviations, so you can do it too.

Basic terminology
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/12/16/statistics-for-shooters-executive-summary/

A classical public domain text for free. Don't fret if the math is too much, but glance through all of it regardless and you will slowly get the ideas.
https://hardluckhank.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Stastics-in-Ballistics.pdf

A little more up to date, but don't worry if you don't follow the math, just work through all of it.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA387108.pdf

This one is for you.
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/11/29/statistics-for-shooters/

Go through all of those and circle back if you have more questions.

 

[McPotty]

Math and I have never been friends. I got into trig in high school after barely paying Algebra 2 and failed miserably at it. After graduating I just went to work at a series of minimum wage jobs with no direction. One night my girlfriend at the time had a recruiter come to her house. I helped her with the ASVAB questions and when he found out she's was diabetic he turned his attention on me. Next thing I knew I was swearing in and spent the next 14 years in the Army. The little college I have taken since getting out kind of fell apart trying to get into a fairly competitive program after quadratic equations pretty much said "this is as far as you go". Now I compound medications. There's some math but it's pretty basic; the hardest being how much of a commercially available ointment (say Nitro-Bid 2%) do I need for a 0.125% strength.
I've never taken a shop class or anything mechanical. Never touched a set of calipers before I started reloading. The one I have is from Amazon and cost somewhere in the $30-40 range.
I do like precision and having everything as a range- trim length 2.007 +/-, CBTO 2.197+/-, OAL 2.795 +/- just irks the holy hell out of me even if the results I've gotten this far have been good.

Looks like I have A LOT of reading to get through; thanks for all that; seriously; thanks you. I'm probably a lot more likely to understand the theory of it than the math behind it but I'm more than willing to take a look.

 

[RegionRat]

Looks like I have A LOT of reading to get through; thanks for all that; seriously; thanks you. I'm probably a lot more likely to understand the theory of it than the math behind it but I'm more than willing to take a look.

Just keep the faith and keep rolling. There are many trolls who try to cause trouble on the gun forums because they want to bring everyone down. But, there are also many expert folks on here who are willing to answer questions and if you meet them half way they will keep trying to explain.