Is this nessesary?

[Pusher591]

You think the fact that you MIGHT be able to stop that from happening is justification for most cops methods. It isn't.

We don't want to be SAFE. We want to be FREE!

A free people can handle their own goddamn safety. Saddens me to my fucking core that so few people even recognize this anymore.

Please elaborate on how you can control a drunk behind the wheel of a vehicle while you are in another vehicle? So you would prefer to be "free" even if it cost the life of your loved ones at the fault of another? You don't see the problem with that at all?

Even if you impose your on punishment on the pos who killed your family, at the end if the day you will still be without your family and to know that could have possibly been stopped doesn't bother you?

Can I stop every drunk or senseless killing from happening, no but I can't just give up trying, its not in my DNA to give up. I want this country's rights protected but we have also established that it can't count on itself to sustain its own safety. Please don't misunderstand me, I mean this next comment as a compliment, most citizens do not feel the way we do about freedom and protecting the rights and laws ourselves, they want others to do it for them.

I'm not saying this shoukd be a police state or country but most police are not hear to kick in doors for a dime bag of weed as y'all
have so eloquently implied.

 

[Raven6 Actual]

You think the fact that you MIGHT be able to stop that from happening is justification for most cops methods. It isn't.

We don't want to be SAFE. We want to be FREE!

A free people can handle their own goddamn safety. Saddens me to my fucking core that so few people even recognize this anymore.

And this nails it, and wraps it up for me. Freedom, not safety. Thanks brother

edit: stupid word misuse

 

[orkan]

Look Pusher, we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. I'm certain of it.

Why is everyone so afraid of death? You want to know what stops a drunk from getting behind the wheel? It sure as hell isn't a cop. All they do is try to "catch" them after they are already doing it. If the fear of getting caught is so goddamn effective at stopping drunk driving... why does it still happen with ridiculous frequency? I saw a guy in the paper a few months back, he was in jail on his 6th DUI. SIXTH! What the fuck does he still have a license for? Clearly the system you work for is broken to its core. So it's all noble what you are doing. It is... and I believe you legitimately want to help, but there's a big disconnect between what you do, and what actually changes people's behavior as a society. Your job is going to continue to get worse, and more dangerous, as the system continues to be more broken and criminals continue to be more brazen. Mark my words.

A friend of mine wanted to hop behind the wheel drunk a few years ago. He already had 2 DUI's. I tried to stop him. Calmly first, using all kinds of well-thought-out words and reasons. That didn't work. Then I tried to get his keys. That didn't work. Me knocking him unconscious and taking his keys, seemed to work really well. When he came to, I held him by the throat and screamed in his face for a few minutes, and punched him a few more times as he tried to retaliate, and then said if I ever caught wind of him trying to drive drunk again, I'd show up and kill him where he stood whenever I caught up with him. To my knowledge, he's never done it again... or even attempted it. Doesn't even drink much anymore. It ended our friendship, but his life changed for the better that very next day. Care to share the statistics on how many DUI offenders are REPEAT offenders? Hell, maybe we should assign a cop to every citizen 24hrs a day. Cops don't equal safety. I know that's the illusion that PD's and government likes to push... but let me repeat: Cops do not equal safety.

The point is, you catch people while they are doing bad shit. Good for you, go get em. Sounds like you are pretty good at it. The rest of us out here are more concerned with the fact that they are doing bad shit in the first place. Society is sick, and the more the cops keep pushing us into a corner by trampling our rights "for our safety" the deeper the wedge will be driven, and the worse it will get. Take that to its finality, and you know as well as I do that "you guys" don't win that fight. So why can't you do your job while upholding the constitution and all the sacred principles that made this country great, while we do ours, and you'll find you will have more support from us than you know what to do with? Stop viewing the fact that we have GOD-given and constitutionally-recognized rights as a hindrance to you in the performance of your duties, and USE that fact to your advantage.

Don't spend a lot of time on what I've said, as I'm just some dumb redneck from podunk-nowhere South Dakota. So don't take anything I'm saying too seriously ... but I remember what true freedom felt like, and I haven't felt it for a long time. Everywhere I turn, the government and its control agents (you) are in the way of me living as a free man should be able to. So stop the criminals, or don't.... I don't really give a shit. If it lands on my doorstep, threats get handled. Damn sure isn't going to be a cop there to save me, as I'm about 20 minutes from the nearest response. I live an honest life, try not to hurt people or get in their way, and the only thing I ask in return is for them to stay the hell out of mine. Getting pulled over because some rookie asswipe freshly imported from some california asshole-accademy thinks my ar15 laying on the dash is "probable cause" to stop me from going about my day is hardly what I have in mind.

There's no possible way to intelligently debate an emotionally charged issue as this on the internet. No matter what I say you'll think I'm just a big ol' cop-hater, and no matter what you say... I'm going to think you are just another over-reaching cop that is out of touch with the constitutional intention. The only thing that's clear is the balance has been upset... and more laws and more people to enforce those laws are for goddamn sure not the answer.

This country needs to get a moral center again. That should help fix things.

 

[Pusher591]

Look Pusher, we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. I'm certain of it.

Why is everyone so afraid of death? You want to know what stops a drunk from getting behind the wheel? It sure as hell isn't a cop. All they do is try to "catch" them after they are already doing it. If the fear of getting caught is so goddamn effective at stopping drunk driving... why does it still happen with ridiculous frequency? I saw a guy in the paper a few months back, he was in jail on his 6th DUI. SIXTH! What the fuck does he still have a license for? Clearly the system you work for is broken to its core. So it's all noble what you are doing. It is... and I believe you legitimately want to help, but there's a big disconnect between what you do, and what actually changes people's behavior as a society. Your job is going to continue to get worse, and more dangerous, as the system continues to be more broken and criminals continue to be more brazen. Mark my words.

A friend of mine wanted to hop behind the wheel drunk a few years ago. He already had 2 DUI's. I tried to stop him. Calmly first, using all kinds of well-thought-out words and reasons. That didn't work. Then I tried to get his keys. That didn't work. Me knocking him unconscious and taking his keys, seemed to work really well. When he came to, I held him by the throat and screamed in his face for a few minutes, and punched him a few more times as he tried to retaliate, and then said if I ever caught wind of him trying to drive drunk again, I'd show up and kill him where he stood whenever I caught up with him. To my knowledge, he's never done it again... or even attempted it. Doesn't even drink much anymore. It ended our friendship, but his life changed for the better that very next day. Care to share the statistics on how many DUI offenders are REPEAT offenders? Hell, maybe we should assign a cop to every citizen 24hrs a day. Cops don't equal safety. I know that's the illusion that PD's and government likes to push... but let me repeat: Cops do not equal safety.

The point is, you catch people while they are doing bad shit. Good for you, go get em. Sounds like you are pretty good at it. The rest of us out here are more concerned with the fact that they are doing bad shit in the first place. Society is sick, and the more the cops keep pushing us into a corner by trampling our rights "for our safety" the deeper the wedge will be driven, and the worse it will get. Take that to its finality, and you know as well as I do that "you guys" don't win that fight. So why can't you do your job while upholding the constitution and all the sacred principles that made this country great, while we do ours, and you'll find you will have more support from us than you know what to do with? Stop viewing the fact that we have GOD-given and constitutionally-recognized rights as a hindrance to you in the performance of your duties, and USE that fact to your advantage.

Don't spend a lot of time on what I've said, as I'm just some dumb redneck from podunk-nowhere South Dakota. So don't take anything I'm saying too seriously ... but I remember what true freedom felt like, and I haven't felt it for a long time. Everywhere I turn, the government and its control agents (you) are in the way of me living as a free man should be able to. So stop the criminals, or don't.... I don't really give a shit. If it lands on my doorstep, threats get handled. Damn sure isn't going to be a cop there to save me, as I'm about 20 minutes from the nearest response. I live an honest life, try not to hurt people or get in their way, and the only thing I ask in return is for them to stay the hell out of mine. Getting pulled over because some rookie asswipe freshly imported from some california asshole-accademy thinks my ar15 laying on the dash is "probable cause" to stop me from going about my day is hardly what I have in mind.

There's no possible way to intelligently debate an emotionally charged issue as this on the internet. No matter what I say you'll think I'm just a big ol' cop-hater, and no matter what you say... I'm going to think you are just another over-reaching cop that is out of touch with the constitutional intention. The only thing that's clear is the balance has been upset... and more laws and more people to enforce those laws are for goddamn sure not the answer.

This country needs to get a moral center again. That should help fix things.

Actually I did think you were a "big cop hater" until you posted the above. I actually agree with many points that you just made. We will have to agree to disagree on some things but I bet if we met in person we would definitely be able to discuss our feelings on it and I think more understanding would come from both sides. It's definitely hard to debate one issue without it bleeding into others issues of similar nature which is what I think has happened here and usually does in forum like this. At least we all still have the freedom to visit a site like this I'm glad you posted this, it actually does change my opinion of you, in a good sense that is

 

[Pusher591]

This country needs to get a moral center again. That should help fix things.

If no one has an answer to solve all the problems we have discussed, the above answer is THE ANSWER

 

[Maggot]

So Pusher, I think, that while you intend to do well in your profession, you are sold out to a series of lies that most all of us have bought into. Some of us have seen through those lies, and are trying to reason with you here.

You like a civil debate. I propose that we have a debate. Just you and I. We can even start a new thread. Of course others wil be free to post but I say that neither of us read any post but yours and mine. Just you and me. Ill pick the first topic, a remark you made a couple of pages back that is bought into that lie I spoke of. I think that in three words I can end the debate with a win. It should be fun. If your willing just get back to me.

 

[KYbulldog]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]RE: Phishing / Profiling:


... In OR - you need not be convicted of the specific crime in which the property was seized in order to have it forfeited. ...


[/FONT]

And if you're in town somewhere in OR(and many other states) during the Fourth, and you happen to get stuck in one of those pesky "checkpoints" and refuse a breathalyzer…you get your blood forcibly drawn. The cops are calling it "no refusal weekend".

No-Refusal Weekend Toolkit | Stop Impaired Driving | Traffic Safety Marketing | NHTSA

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/soci...THEON_STRIPPED&utm_campaign=PANTHEON_STRIPPED

 

[CthulhuAwakens]

And if you're in town somewhere in OR(and many other states) during the Fourth, and you happen to get stuck in one of those pesky "checkpoints" and refuse a breathalyzer…you get your blood forcibly drawn. The cops are calling it "no refusal weekend".

No-Refusal Weekend Toolkit | Stop Impaired Driving | Traffic Safety Marketing | NHTSA

Oregon Police Say Independence Day Weekend is 'No Refusal Weekend' (Video)

Irony is killing me...

 

[Skunk]

I've been reading this thread from the get-go. Been shaking my head in frustration through it all too.

To address the original question posed, "are MRAPs really necessary for Law Enforcement?" My answer is no, probably not, most of the time. HOWEVER, almost every LE Agency in the country, including the one I work for (which most people think has nearly unlimited funding), can't afford to buy a purpose built, ballistic rated SWAT delivery/extraction vehicle. They're freakin' expensive and there are a myriad of other things that LE agencies have to spend money on. So, when Uncle Sam calls and says, "uh, we have these MRAPs we don't need anymore... it won't cost you anything but fuel and upkeep... interested?" all these LE, of course, say, "where do we sign?!" I mean, seriously guys, it's either a big, clumsy, poorly fit to the mission MRAP or a 1998 Dodge Ram cargo van or some other equally worthless tin can on bald tires. And I'm not making that up. If I were to announce to you all who/where I work and told you that we have a MRAP and an old Dodge van, you probably would say, "bullshit!" It's the truth.

I drive that big bastard all the time. We take it out on every mission. Not for the intimidation factor, or to look bad-ass, but to have something to throw an injured operator/civilian in if bullets are flying and we've got nowhere to go. It really is that simple. Other than that, it's a great PR tool. Well, you internet bad-asses may not think so, but every damn time I drive that MRAP and stop for fuel, some guy with his kids wants to take a picture in front of it.

Believe me, it's got nothing to do with infringing on Rights or the militarization of the Law Enforcement community.

Alright, that's it for the MRAP explanation.

Now, for all this "Constitutional Rights infringement" and "overstepping bounds" stuff.... I've been taking the same Oath to protect the Constitution for 15yrs now. I'm one of Uncle Sams Misguided Children and now I still work for the Govt in the LE capacity. Let me say that nobody takes the Oath more seriously than I do. I read/reference the Constitution all the time and I live/work with that in mind every day. It's my belief and it's my profession. Having said that, it really burns me up, and others I'm sure, when people come on here and say that we LEO types side-step the Constitution in the performance of our duties. That kind of shit is the absolute lowest, most below-the-belt, sissy kind of disrespectful, fuckwad trash talking there is. Go ahead and run your man-pleasers, the First Amendment says you can.

The Constitution is an absolute masterpiece of a document. It sets this Nation apart from all others. And, having travelled the globe professionally and personally, let me tell you that the Constitution and the Bills of Rights are the reasons this country is the best place on this rock. I will NEVER entertain the idea of living anywhere else. But, as Pusher, I think, pointed out, the protections the Constitution provides apply to all. And, enforcing the laws that the voting public have put in place, while not trampling all over the rights and freedoms that the Constitution protects is a very difficult task.

Some of you speak of not needing laws and Law Enforcement, Freedom before safety, I'll take care of myself, leave me alone. I get it. I wish it were that way too. I'd be happy and ready/willing to take care of me and my own. God help the poor soul that breaks into my house at night... I know you feel the same. Unfortunately, not everyone is willing/capable of taking care of themselves. Those are the people that need laws and Law Enforcement. Is it an inconvenience for the rest of us? Yeah, but until everyone is ready to re-write the way we do things here, the rest of us are just gonna have to put up with being hindered a little bit by traffic stops and a few questions here and there. It might piss-off you law abiding people when it happens, but like it or not, proactive policing catches bad people every single day. It really is beneficial to us all.

One other thing... I don't remember where I saw it or I'd quote it, but whoever said something like, "could this be the start of the Nation-wide gun confiscation campaign" or something like that, are you serious, dude? Really? No, really, do you actually believe that? I deal with this subject every stinking day at work and it just blows my mind. I just don't understand where this idea comes from. There is never any factual basis to this belief, or any reason behind it either. It's just.... retarded. Honestly, say, hypothetically, that all guns were somehow successfully outlawed and that the Capitol was calling for a National round-up of all the guns and that all the gun owners were gonna be thrown in the supposed "FEMA camps" I hear so much about. Doomsday, right? Red Dawn from within... Seriously, if the Pres got on the tube tonight and delivered that message in a special address to the Nation, what do you think would happen? Do you really believe anyone would EVER knock on your door? I can tell you that this guy aint going around to try and collect weapons from the public. I don't follow unlawful orders. And neither do most other LE. There might be a couple mislead, gullible souls to step up onto a doorstep and ask for someone to turn their guns over, but the first one of them to take a round in the running lights would spell the end to that shit. It's not gonna happen. There are too many of us gun-loving, God-fearing, Freedom-addicted, Constitution-clinging, fed up with Washington people out here. But, seriously, STOP THIS STUPID ASS FEAR MONGERING BULLSHIT you people keep spreading so I can find some fucking 22LR ammo!

 

[Maggot]

I Seriously, if the Pres got on the tube tonight and delivered that message in a special address to the Nation, what do you think would happen? Do you really believe anyone would EVER knock on your door? I can tell you that this guy aint going around to try and collect weapons from the public. I don't follow unlawful orders. And neither do most other LE. There might be a couple mislead, gullible souls to step up onto a doorstep and ask for someone to turn their guns over, but the first one of them to take a round in the running lights would spell the end to that shit. It's not gonna happen. There are too many of us gun-loving, God-fearing, Freedom-addicted, Constitution-clinging, fed up with Washington people out here. But, seriously, STOP THIS STUPID ASS FEAR MONGERING BULLSHIT you people keep spreading so I can find some fucking 22LR ammo!

NRA The Untold Story of Gun Confiscation After Katrina - YouTube

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Just today more news on bad cops is flooding the media.

UPDATE: Former Dallas officer who beat handcuffed suspect found guilty of official oppression | Dallas Morning News

Beating a guy in handcuffs. Ive seen it first hand. It happens more often than not. They just cant seem to keep off the news around here.

 

[no1special]

skunk: if your group was using a 1998 dodge van on bald tires how on gods green earth are you going to properly maintain a mrap??

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Now, for all this "Constitutional Rights infringement" and "overstepping bounds" stuff.... I've been taking the same Oath to protect the Constitution for 15yrs now. I'm one of Uncle Sams Misguided Children and now I still work for the Govt in the LE capacity. Let me say that nobody takes the Oath more seriously than I do. I read/reference the Constitution all the time and I live/work with that in mind every day. It's my belief and it's my profession.

The Constitution is an absolute masterpiece of a document. It sets this Nation apart from all others. And, having travelled the globe professionally and personally, let me tell you that the Constitution and the Bills of Rights are the reasons this country is the best place on this rock. I will NEVER entertain the idea of living anywhere else. But, as Pusher, I think, pointed out, the protections the Constitution provides apply to all. And, enforcing the laws that the voting public have put in place, while not trampling all over the rights and freedoms that the Constitution protects is a very difficult task. Is it an inconvenience for the rest of us? Yeah, but until everyone is ready to re-write the way we do things here, the rest of us are just gonna have to put up with being hindered a little bit by traffic stops and a few questions here and there. It might piss-off you law abiding people when it happens, but like it or not, proactive policing catches bad people every single day. It really is beneficial to us all.

I removed some of your post so as not to cloud up the point. What point? The point that the first part does not agree with the last paragraph. If the Constitution is all you say it is to you how do you violate it with the mere slight of it's too fucking bad if I am" hindered a little bit". Yes the courts have passed some BS laws that conflict with the constitution. Stop and frisk for one. But if you are using those "Legal" rules to infringe on the rights provided you must be in great turmoil. Look at some of the things you do under the guise of Well it's legal, some fucked up judge says so. See if they conflict with liberty and freedoms provided by the constitution. If you can say too bad I am being proactive to protect you. You need to do some more reading of the founding fathers, the architects of that document. All of them were for liberty over safety. I feel you and Pusher are falling into that spiral. What you do is honorable, no doubt, but this proactive crap has to stop.

 

[orkan]

skunk: if your group was using a 1998 dodge van on bald tires how on gods green earth are you going to properly maintain a mrap??

Don't go talking logic, you'll tear a hole in the universe.

 

[Veer_G]

With all of the bickering I lost interest to read all the posts.

I live in tn which apparently has a good deal of these things. Here is my opinion.

What the hell is supposed to happen to these things? Be cut in half like surplus hummers of the past. Or leave them for gd pyramid niggers to use over in the desert. What a waste of a machine.

Now to all the police on here, since you all are honorable and nice, tell all your buddies, who aren't , not to be asshats. This is to say, we all know there are good police and asshat police. Any one who reads this who knows an asshat policeman please encourage them to not be an asshat.

Everyone wins.

You got the wrong construction crew there, Cletus. Or are you just saying that they're the current neighbors? Either way, you've got the "swave and deboner" meter pegged.

 

[Skunk]

no1special,

Properly maintain... probably won't. They were given to us. Ours has like 3300 miles on it. We'll change the oil and keep air in the tires like the old van.

The tires on it are great right now!

 

[Skunk]

Maggot,

I KNEW you would reply with something about Katrina. Unique situation that I'm not getting involved in talking about. The US is a very different, i.e. more aware, place these days and I don't think that will ever happen again.

Enough of that. You're the type of guy that'll go on forever.

 

[bogeybrown]

I was doing some googling to see which agencies in my state had been getting these and found some clips from a year or 2 ago where some PODUNK Depts in my area had gotten them. I don't oppose these things being re-purposed, but it's clearly a case of:

"Hey y'all, we can get an MRAP"
"What the hell would we do with an MRAP?"
"Who the hell cares, it's free and it looks cool"

I have no fear whatsoever of poorly trained guys in an operationally-inappropriate vehicle.

 

[Skunk]

Yankee,

Nothing I've ever done goes against the Constitution. Terry stops included. Read about Terry v. United States. Supreme Court has held that there is no unreasonable search/seizure there... Of course, you have no use for the Supreme Court either...

You keep bringing up the Founding Fathers... Is that the depth of your argument?

Every method/technique that LE use (legitimately, not talking about the bad apples out there) is Constitutional.

You really should go take a legal class or two.

Ever hear of a Sovereign Citizen? I fear you may be "falling into that sprial."

 

[ArmyJerry]

Spiral or enlightenment?

Ever hear of a Sovereign Citizen? I fear you may be "falling into that sprial."

 

[thejeep]

You got the wrong construction crew there, Cletus. Or are you just saying that they're the current neighbors? Either way, you've got the "swave and deboner" meter pegged.

eloquence is lost on most. so why bother.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I think it might pay to look at all this from a different angle.

A significantly large proportion of my working life was dedicated to writing, testing, and maintaining computer code.

Producing a series of subroutines within a program's code to provide a meaningful representation of the authorizations and prohibitions contained within the Constitution and BOR is probably doable.

The fun part arrives when we try to so the same thing with the gazillion contradictory laws, regulations, and judicial rulings that unchecked and self righteous, self justified elected officials have enacted mainly because they can. Taken as a whole, it would require regiments of (good) programmers to interpret this stuff into workable code; and the whole thing would probably defy compilation because of the stupendously huge memory requirements. Essentially, it's a non-starter from the get-go.

Yet police academies and supervisors are supposed to digest it all whole and guide LEO's in how to accomplish the same task in a litigious and hostile environment.

TILT!!!!!

Greg

 

[Maggot]

Maggot,

I KNEW you would reply with something about Katrina. Unique situation that I'm not getting involved in talking about. The US is a very different, i.e. more aware, place these days and I don't think that will ever happen again.

Enough of that. You're the type of guy that'll go on forever.

Skunk, The truth can be hard to face, so we make excuses. It was only a unique situation until the next one comes along. The fact is that it happened, and it seems you support it.. It represents the mindset of LE. Do what you can get away with.

But lets move on to Boston after the "bombing". They used one punk assed little kid, who had already run over and killed his own brother, as an excuse to lock down a city and patrol the streets in your "MRAP,' door to door. Im betting that had they been instructed to confiscate guns they would have "obeyed orders" and the cowed citizens would have obeyed.

The problem is, or one of the problems, is that you have a vested interest in being right and therefore cant look at the situation in a truly objective manner. Being right helps to insure that your paycheck continues. When you arent right you become dismissive like you are some sort of authority or create a stereotype like "Enough of that your the kind of guy", etc. That really leads to an open discussion, doesnt it...but then your type (there's that stereotype coming back to bite you in the ass) really want an open discussion...they only want to control and dominate...not serve and protect.

 

[KYpatriot]

Let's summarize the arguments:

It's not a checkpoint, it's pro-active policing!!

It's ok to forcibly hold someone down and take their blood, it's pro-active policing!

It's ok that SWAT teams do hundreds of no knock entries for non violent drug offenses or warrants instead of the hostage situations/active shooters they were created for, but that mission creep is ok, it's proactive policing!

Can't believe we had to fight the citizens went all the way to the Supreme Court to defend secretly placing tracking devices on our private property, after all it's just proactive policing!

Can't believe we had to fight the citizens all the way to the Supreme Court to defend warrantless searches of electronic devices that have nearly all their private data, it's only pro active policing!

Stop and frisk= pro active policing!

Are you filming me, you are under arrest and your phone is now evidence unless it shows me doing something that might look bad in which case it will accidentally be destroyed.

Yes, I shot your dog on your own property because officer safety is paramount during proactive policing.

Did we SWAT the wrong house or shoot startled homeowners at 2 am because they had a gun in their hand when someone kicked in their door for our non violent warrant service? Well, we get immunity cause it was only proactive policing.

All of the above police departments are doing everyday. Now, why in the world are we supposed to believe any department anywhere gives one wit about the Constitution and my rights as a citizen when they still defend these things? I don't care if some lackey court twisted the a Constitution into a pretzel to give the government more power to do those things- what is "legal" and what is ethical is rapidly diverging. Here is a hint: we want you to stop proactive policing. We will take the crime instead if you need all the above to do your job. You don't get to ignore the Constitution just because you believe you are providing a service or it's a good cause.

Oh by the way, thanks for pointing out another wonderful tactic, to demonize anyone who takes their rights seriously by lumping them in with sovereign citizens or whatever " terrorist" group is the flavor of the day. As soon as it is determined the citizen is one of THEM instead of one of us, it's just makes it all the easier to forget about all those pesky restrictions on government power put in place to provide liberty. After all this is a WAR! War on terror, war on crime, war on drugs, war on liberty.....

 

[ArmyJerry]

Maybe this is the solution for a few issues.

California police use of body cameras cuts violence and complaints | World news | The Guardian

 

[Maggot]

Let's summarize the arguments:

It's not a checkpoint, it's pro-active policing!!

It's ok to forcibly hold someone down and take their blood, it's pro-active policing!

It's ok that SWAT teams do hundreds of no knock entries for non violent drug offenses or warrants instead of the hostage situations/active shooters they were created for, but that mission creep is ok, it's proactive policing!

Can't believe we had to fight the citizens went all the way to the Supreme Court to defend secretly placing tracking devices on our private property, after all it's just proactive policing!

Can't believe we had to fight the citizens all the way to the Supreme Court to defend warrantless searches of electronic devices that have nearly all their private data, it's only pro active policing!

Stop and frisk= pro active policing!

Are you filming me, you are under arrest and your phone is now evidence unless it shows me doing something that might look bad in which case it will accidentally be destroyed.

Yes, I shot your dog on your own property because officer safety is paramount during proactive policing.

Did we SWAT the wrong house or shoot startled homeowners at 2 am because they had a gun in their hand when someone kicked in their door for our non violent warrant service? Well, we get immunity cause it was only proactive policing.

All of the above police departments are doing everyday. Now, why in the world are we supposed to believe any department anywhere gives one wit about the Constitution and my rights as a citizen when they still defend these things? I don't care if some lackey court twisted the a Constitution into a pretzel to give the government more power to do those things- what is "legal" and what is ethical is rapidly diverging. Here is a hint: we want you to stop proactive policing. We will take the crime instead if you need all the above to do your job. You don't get to ignore the Constitution just because you believe you are providing a service or it's a good cause.

Oh by the way, thanks for pointing out another wonderful tactic, to demonize anyone who takes their rights seriously by lumping them in with sovereign citizens or whatever " terrorist" group is the flavor of the day. As soon as it is determined the citizen is one of THEM instead of one of us, it's just makes it all the easier to forget about all those pesky restrictions on government power put in place to provide liberty. After all this is a WAR! War on terror, war on crime, war on drugs, war on liberty.....

I think KY's post above is called "Your ass has been soundly whipped. End of Discussion."

Jerry thats all well and good until they turn them off. "oh, equipment malfunctioned. (in an aside--- "until I finished knocking the vic's teeth down his throat for filming me)"

 

[Skunk]

I think KY's post above is called "Your ass has been soundly whipped. End of Discussion."

Both of your responses look and sound like a lot of quick assumptions about me (support for Katrina response?) and jumped to conclusions about law enforcement in general. And, there is an overall tone to this whole discussion that demonstrates a true lack of understanding of the concepts of Reasonable Suspicion and/or Probable Cause.

I don't know about this "no knock" warrant stuff, or of warrants being served at 2am. Neither of those exist on the Federal side.

Anyway, I give up. Whipped. End of Discussion.

 

[fdkay]

And if you're in town somewhere in OR(and many other states) during the Fourth, and you happen to get stuck in one of those pesky "checkpoints" and refuse a breathalyzer…you get your blood forcibly drawn. The cops are calling it "no refusal weekend".

No-Refusal Weekend Toolkit | Stop Impaired Driving | Traffic Safety Marketing | NHTSA

Oregon Police Say Independence Day Weekend is 'No Refusal Weekend' (Video)

I have resisted getting involved here, but some of you are refusing to understand the process.
All a no refusal timeframe means is that they have judges on call to sign warrants if required.
That doesn't mean that they are going to pull everybody over and start poking needles in them.
First, they must have RS for stopping the car, normally some traffic code violation.
Next, they MUST establish probable cause that the suspect is drunk and they MUST be able to articulate it.
The judge will review the complaint before signing the warrant, probable cause MUST be established first.

In 2012 there were over 10,000 people killed in the U.S. where alcohol was a factor, the majority of those killed were the victims, not the drivers.
I have arrested folks that could barely stand up, but, according to some of you, that's okay, it's the drunks right to endanger everyone else in the vicinity.

"Everyone is going to die sometime", if that's the way you feel about your children or grandchildren, I feel sorry for them. (not attributing this to KY Bulldog)
While I realize that everyone will die at some point, I certainly don't want my children or grandchildren to die prematurely because of some stupid piece of shit that drinks and drives.

 

[orkan]

Oh so now we don't care about our families because we want cops to stop doing things wrong. Interesting.

 

[sharac]

Lately there is not even a need for cop bashing as they do perfect job themselves. But what is striking is the dynamic of this us vs them i used to think US has years of grinding until critical mass is achieved however it appears time needs to be counted in months rather than years. Its scary to see "nut case" "loony" "conspiracy" "fictional" stories come to life with such accuracy and if one is to judge outcomes of those stories it sure is going to get ugly pretty soon.

Also it should be evident that trying to reason with public officials is exercise in futility and does nothing but get person trying to reason on The list ( as does the virtual yapping we are all engaged in - but most of us know that and fully accept possible future consequences).

 

[woojos]

I'm OK w/ the forced blood draws for suspected DUIs, but I don't know the CONOPS let's call it for when the procedure is used. I would say it's generally easy to recognize a person so shit-faced they should be nowhere near a car, or even a bicycle for that matter. They know they are busted, so if they are smart, they will refuse the test and pay the money to fight it in court using the magic of a lawyer.

It gets more suspect, when the person passes all the field sobriety tests, may have had a couple drinks over a long dinner, and would probably be as impaired as a guy running on little sleep who hasn't had his morning coffee. I would generally be of the opinion your average LE is more than competent to make this decision under normal circumstances, i.e. no quotas or reward based compensation strategies for DUI arrests.

I'm also interested in some statistics on these warrants. If you wake up a judge at 3 AM to sign a warrant, in how many instances does he just say "Oh OK just do it" versus actually understanding the LEO's argument as to why it should be done versus the citizen's argument to why it shouldn't. Also, is there any penalty applied in the cases that no alcohol is found? This also gets more muddled with marijuana intoxication and the new saliva tests they are trying to do, which there is a huge market for, but suspect science behind it all.

There's a big difference between this and forcibly sodomizing a guy who appears to be clenching his butt cheeks at a routine traffic stop, as he may have an indeterminate amount of drugs shoved up his ass. It's been said, the more that the latter stuff happens, the more credibility LE loses and the greater pushback from citizens who are aware of their rights, and willing to defend them.

 

[orkan]

It's been said, the more that the latter stuff happens, the more credibility LE loses and the greater pushback from citizens who are aware of their rights, and willing to defend them.

... but, but, but... what about our SAFETY!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Surely if the cops aren't abusing their authority, we'll all die.

 

[Maggot]

Lately there is not even a need for cop bashing as they do perfect job themselves. But what is striking is the dynamic of this us vs them i used to think US has years of grinding until critical mass is achieved however it appears time needs to be counted in months rather than years. Its scary to see "nut case" "loony" "conspiracy" "fictional" stories come to life with such accuracy and if one is to judge outcomes of those stories it sure is going to get ugly pretty soon.

Also it should be evident that trying to reason with public officials is exercise in futility and does nothing but get person trying to reason on The list ( as does the virtual yapping we are all engaged in - but most of us know that and fully accept possible future consequences).

Unfortunately I fear your correct.

 

[Veer_G]

eloquence is lost on most. so why bother.

Because it isn't lost on everyone.

 

[SLINKY ERT]

For those that believe that American policing has moved towards a "militarization" or more of an "us vs. them" mentality (so to speak), what is the Era in American history that YOU believe was the "Golden Era"?

 

[KYbulldog]

I have resisted getting involved here, but some of you are refusing to understand the process.
All a no refusal timeframe means is that they have judges on call to sign warrants if required.
That doesn't mean that they are going to pull everybody over and start poking needles in them.
First, they must have RS for stopping the car, normally some traffic code violation.
Next, they MUST establish probable cause that the suspect is drunk and they MUST be able to articulate it.
The judge will review the complaint before signing the warrant, probable cause MUST be established first.

In 2012 there were over 10,000 people killed in the U.S. where alcohol was a factor, the majority of those killed were the victims, not the drivers.
I have arrested folks that could barely stand up, but, according to some of you, that's okay, it's the drunks right to endanger everyone else in the vicinity.

"Everyone is going to die sometime", if that's the way you feel about your children or grandchildren, I feel sorry for them. (not attributing this to KY Bulldog)
While I realize that everyone will die at some point, I certainly don't want my children or grandchildren to die prematurely because of some stupid piece of shit that drinks and drives.

Same line of reasoning that brings us body scans and enhanced pat downs at airports, Meta data collection, etc. Must keep everyone safe therefore the masses must lose their freedom to travel. Being stopped at mandatory checkpoints, asked "your papers please", and inquiring why I'm being pulled over gets me harassed, and if I don't comply then that is probable cause right? Probable cause is pretty much whatever the officer determines or makes up. "my dog hit on your vehicle"… "you were swerving" Maybe if the force self policed and put to pasture the problem children that give you guys such a bad rap instead of protecting each other.
Instead of protecting the border, we set up checkpoints 100mi north and look for "illegals" that we won't deport, and harass the law abiding citizen who asserts his right to TRAVEL. And probable cause is refusal to comply with illegal search. Law enforcement officers are right now failing to uphold the law by not catching and deport unlawful entry into the US…because they are being directed to from their superior officers and from the dude with a "pen and a phone".
Instead of protecting the border, we set up checkpoints 100mi north of the border and look for "illegals" that we won't deport, and harass the law abiding citizen who asserts his right to TRAVEL. And probable cause is refusal to comply with illegal search?

Yeah, i know, we're all overreacting.

Pastor defies Border Patrol, captures intense moments on video - FOX 10 News | myfoxphoenix.com

ACTUAL FOOTAGE Pastor Beaten Tased by Border Patrol DPS (Alex Jones) GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME - YouTube

Prison Planet.com » Man Refuses To Comply With Internal Checkpoint; Border Patrol Smashes Their Way Into Vehicle

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

I'm OK w/ the forced blood draws for suspected DUIs, but I don't know the CONOPS let's call it for when the procedure is used. I would say it's generally easy to recognize a person so shit-faced they should be nowhere near a car, or even a bicycle for that matter. They know they are busted, so if they are smart, they will refuse the test and pay the money to fight it in court using the magic of a lawyer.

It gets more suspect, when the person passes all the field sobriety tests, may have had a couple drinks over a long dinner, and would probably be as impaired as a guy running on little sleep who hasn't had his morning coffee. I would generally be of the opinion your average LE is more than competent to make this decision under normal circumstances, i.e. no quotas or reward based compensation strategies for DUI arrests.

I'm also interested in some statistics on these warrants. If you wake up a judge at 3 AM to sign a warrant, in how many instances does he just say "Oh OK just do it" versus actually understanding the LEO's argument as to why it should be done versus the citizen's argument to why it shouldn't. Also, is there any penalty applied in the cases that no alcohol is found? This also gets more muddled with marijuana intoxication and the new saliva tests they are trying to do, which there is a huge market for, but suspect science behind it all.

There's a big difference between this and forcibly sodomizing a guy who appears to be clenching his butt cheeks at a routine traffic stop, as he may have an indeterminate amount of drugs shoved up his ass. It's been said, the more that the latter stuff happens, the more credibility LE loses and the greater pushback from citizens who are aware of their rights, and willing to defend them.

Watch the video? You have the right to refuse the test even if you are pass out drunk. The law as written has a provision for the person who refuses the tests. You lose your license for 1 year plus it will be used against you in court. The arresting officer will testify that you were in no condition to operate a vehicle and will most likely introduce video evidence to get you convicted of the DUI. They found a loophole around the refusal by getting the warrant for the forced drawing. I can not agree with this tactic.
It's another one of those "LEGAL" ways the police are using to "PROACTIVE POLICE" the people. Talk about an unreasonable search. It is just a small whittle on the edge of a constitutional right. But the more and more the trim away the easier it will be to just say fuck it all together. They keep subverting the constitution under the guise of "For your safety" and "If you have nothing to hide what's the big deal". Keep agreeing with this crap and they will take a match to that document. Hell, New York PD is already putting out statistics, to scare the populace, of the massive violet crime increase since they stopped the practice of stop and frisk. I am anti terrorist as any American but the wire tapping and infiltration of the Muslim mosques in NY was outrageous. If we allow that who is next? The Baptists, Catholics, the Jews,....? Should we just get a list from DHS? I believe they have one for all the scary groups we should be worried about. If you check it I am sure you will be included in one of those groups. Is it good to go as long as it's not you being targeted?

 

[SLINKY ERT]

The law as written has a provision for the person who refuses the tests. You lose your license for 1 year plus it will be used against you in court.

Maybe it's that way in TN, but according to the Maryland Transportation Article's "Advice of Rights" (DR-15) in MD, a refusal with a first offense is license confiscation, a 45 day Temporary License will be issued, with a 120 day suspension imposed against your Driver's License. A second or subsequent offense holds a 1 year suspension.

Again I pose the question: For those that believe that American policing has moved towards a "militarization" or more of an "us vs. them" mentality (so to speak), what is the Era in American history that YOU believe was the "Golden Era"?

 

[fdkay]

Orkan, while I disagree with much of what you say, and how you say it, I also agree with much of what you say. More than you can imagine.
Let me address a couple of things from this quote below.

Yes, cops try to catch folks in the act of an offense. This isn't Minority Report, we can't put someone in jail because they "might" do something wrong.
Yes, it would be best to stop them before they get behind a wheel.

You are quite the paradox, you rail against Cops doing illegal things in the name of public safety (which I agree with your stance), yet, by your own admission, you committed a criminal act by assaulting someone and knocking them unconscious to prevent them from committing a crime. In Texas, that would have been an Assault Causing Bodily Injury, good for up to a year in jail.

As far as multiple DWI's. I assisted in the arrest of a man with six prior DWI's about 4 years ago. Yes, he had a valid license. In my opinion, he should have still been in jail and should never have gotten a valid license again, but that is not up to the Police Department. Just so you know, and it may be a surprise to you, but the lack of a drivers license does not prevent people from driving.

It sure as hell isn't a cop. All they do is try to "catch" them after they are already doing it.

A friend of mine wanted to hop behind the wheel drunk a few years ago. He already had 2 DUI's. I tried to stop him. Calmly first, using all kinds of well-thought-out words and reasons. That didn't work. Then I tried to get his keys. That didn't work. Me knocking him unconscious and taking his keys, seemed to work really well. When he came to, I held him by the throat and screamed in his face for a few minutes, and punched him a few more times as he tried to retaliate, and then said if I ever caught wind of him trying to drive drunk again, I'd show up and kill him where he stood whenever I caught up with him.

This country needs to get a moral center again. That should help fix things.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Maybe it's that way in TN, but according to the Maryland Transportation Article's "Advice of Rights" (DR-15) in MD, a refusal with a first offense is license confiscation, a 45 day Temporary License will be issued, with a 120 day suspension imposed against your Driver's License. A second or subsequent offense holds a 1 year suspension.

Again I pose the question: For those that believe that American policing has moved towards a "militarization" or more of an "us vs. them" mentality (so to speak), what is the Era in American history that YOU believe was the "Golden Era"?

Ok. So the elected in MD provided a different provision for a refusal. Did they say it is ok to strap you to a table and have your blood forcefully removed against your will? Probably not. Nor did they in Ga but judge has found a crack in the law and they are exploiting it. Cuz a judge says it's "Legal".

 

[SLINKY ERT]

Ok. So the elected in MD provided a different provision for a refusal. Did they say it is ok to strap you to a table and have your blood forcefully removed against your will? Probably not. Nor did they in Ga but judge has found a crack in the law and they are exploiting it. Cuz a judge says it's "Legal".

In a fatal crash where alcohol is suspected, yes. Yes we can obtain a warrant for your blood.

 

[orkan]

You are quite the paradox, you rail against Cops doing illegal things in the name of public safety (which I agree with your stance), yet, by your own admission, you committed a criminal act by assaulting someone and knocking them unconscious to prevent them from committing a crime. In Texas, that would have been an Assault Causing Bodily Injury, good for up to a year in jail.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You go ahead and use the law where it applies. You people are experts at finding ways to apply it. This is why a criminal can break into someone's house and get stabbed by the homeowner, and you'll arrest the home-owner for assault. Or why squatters can occupy a mans home, and you'll arrest him if he tries to throw them out. Gotta follow that law.

Let me clear it up for you.

I'm not a cop. The law is not tied to my moral choices. You seem to think my beef with bad cops has to do with the law, when it doesn't have shit to do with it. It has to do with what is right and what is wrong. Just because a cop is legally allowed to do something, doesn't have shit to do with whether its right or not. Half the laws passed these days would be considered unconstitutional by the founding fathers. The law has nothing to do with what is right or wrong. All the law is tied to is the fact that some politicians decided something should be, so they passed a law. You think me doing that, is the same as if a cop does it. Well its not. Not even close actually. I was on equal footing with that guy. He wasn't risking imprisonment or DEATH by resisting me and five or six other adrenaline junkies with ego issues, using tasers, sticks, and guns. I wasn't given equipment, training, and authority... all put in place at the cost of the citizenry, and tasked with the public trust. No. I was john Q citizen, putting myself at risk, to protect those around me. It wasn't a "job" I went to and encountered this guy in the performance of my duties. I'd make the shittiest cop of all time. That's why I'M NOT A COP. I'd beat the shit out of criminals caught in the act. I'd destroy evil, anywhere I encountered it. I wouldn't give a flying shit about the law. I'd conduct myself like a comic book super hero. I'm not a cop. Yet people that ARE cops have certain things in their job description. They signed up for it, yet when it comes to constitutionality and the rights of people... they often don't give a shit about what is right or wrong... they just follow the law. Then the "I'm just doing my job" bullshit eventually comes out of their mouth.

You act like cops are the only ones that can possibly know what is up. I have several friends that are retired cops. They couldn't stand the way things were continuing to go down the "us vs them" road, so they quit. I've trained with cops many times. I know how civilians are talked about in a room full of cops. I know just how frequently cops talk about violating civies rights, and sharing tricks and tips on how to get away with it. Citizens would lose their goddamn minds if they could listen to what cops say behind closed doors. Cops are the ULTIMATE manipulators of the law, and one of the only classes of people with the authority to interpret it however they see fit, and FORCE that interpretation on the citizens they encounter. Sure, maybe sometimes there is consequences for them AFTER the event... but if you don't LET them deny you of your humanity and rights at the time, they WILL escalate the shit as far as they can possibly go, up to and including your death. You comply, or they will shoot you. Doesn't matter if the cop is right or wrong. This is trod out and proven EVERY GODDAMN DAY in this country.

You act like I think it's all cops fault. It isn't. It's OUR fault for allowing this bullshit to get to where it has. Rabid politicians passing idiotic and senseless laws, that you must then enforce at the penalty of losing your livelihood. Well, it's not like someone is going to flip a switch and tell you to go confiscate guns, or roundup a group of people for "political dissent." They will keep pushing, a little at a time, until you are doing just that, "because it's your job." Or you quit, and someone who IS willing to do it takes your place. ... which is what has been happening for the last 125 years or so.

Every so often I get to talk with some old timers when we're out shooting. Their stories of how they lived their lives make me remember just how far we've strayed. The police force is only ONE of the very predictable outcomes of moral deterioration. One only needs to look at history, and you'll see this same thing has happened over and over again. If you're a police officer... you have to ask yourself: Who are you working for, and toward what end? Think hard about it. Think not about what "you" are trying to do... and think instead about what you ARE being used to do.

Goddamn this shit gets me worked up. I'm sure only about half of what I've said has even been coherent at this point. Having been on the receiving end of a few lying asshole cops that abuse their authority as a matter of course, and understanding just how bad it can be and often is... I get VERY emotional about it. Not sure that's wrong either.

 

[SLINKY ERT]

Orkan,

If the current state of American Law Enforcement is so fucked up, corrupt, full of folks who are mindless robots for politicians, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, what is YOUR solution?

Once again..........For those that believe that American policing has moved towards a "militarization" or more of an "us vs. them" mentality (so to speak), what is the Era in American history that YOU believe was the "Golden Era"?

 

[fdkay]

And you skirt the issue that you committed a criminal act to prevent a criminal act.

And just where do you come up with this bullshit about me arresting a homeowner protecting his property?
As long as it was a legal use of force, I'd be THANKING the homeowner.
You are painting with a broad brush again.

 

[SLINKY ERT]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You go ahead and use the law where it applies. You people are experts at finding ways to apply it. This is why a criminal can break into someone's house and get stabbed by the homeowner, and you'll arrest the home-owner for assault. Or why squatters can occupy a mans home, and you'll arrest him if he tries to throw them out. Gotta follow that law.

As for us "using the law where it applies".........isn't that what one would expect from a Police Officer? Guy murders someone......you would want us to use the law where it applies, correct?

As for us being "experts at finding ways to apply it"......Not everybody. Rookies call Supervisors or the State's Attorney if they are unsure as to the specific law being broken. A six month academy does not prepare one for the myriad of calls that Police Officers receive daily.

Squatters, Landlord/ Tenant, Property Line disputes are all Civil Matters (here in MD).....we can't intervene. That takes a judge to adjudicate. You want me to break the law?

As for "gotta follow that law"......I'm not sure what you would prefer. Cops that break the law are asshole jack booted thugs that deserve a fate worse than death, and apprently - the ones that follow the law are robots or twisting the law "using it where it applies".

My original question stands: For those that believe that American policing has moved towards a "militarization" or more of an "us vs. them" mentality (so to speak), what is the Era in American history that YOU believe was the "Golden Era"?

I find it odd that no one has answered that particular question yet............

 

[SLINKY ERT]

Are you saying that the 1968 Democratic Convention was the beginning of the downward spiral? So basically, everything prior to 1968 was what you consider the "Golden Era", when the Police were not militarized (no military weapons/ training) and no "us vs. them" mentality?

Just so I can get a clear picture.....

 

[orkan]

And you skirt the issue that you committed a criminal act to prevent a criminal act

Skirt the issue? I addressed it head on. My moral compass is NOT calibrated by LAWS. I wrote this... did you not read it? There was a whole paragraph regarding this, and how DIFFERENT it is for me to do it than a cop.

 

[SLINKY ERT]

Skirt the issue? I addressed it head on. My moral compass is NOT calibrated by LAWS. I wrote this... did you not read it? There was a whole paragraph regarding this, and how DIFFERENT it is for me to do it than a cop.

Watch out.....you seem to be forming an "it's OK for me to do it, but not you" argument.......kinda like an "us vs. them", no?

 

[orkan]

Watch out.....you seem to be forming an "it's OK for me to do it, but not you" argument.......kinda like an "us vs. them", no?

... yeah, that's because I am. You think cops are treated just as regular citizens? No, they aren't. When a cop is on duty, he's suppose to be a public servant. He CAN NOT do what I did. Period. ... and must NOT be allowed to do so. When he's wearing that uniform, he's in a position of authority, granted him by the PEOPLE he serves. Completely different set of authority and responsibility. Completely different set of obligations.

I've seen an off-duty cop do almost the exact same thing I did. It was morally Ok for him... and it was morally Ok for me. Against the law on both accounts. Don't you see this disconnect?

 

[KYpatriot]

Orkan,

If the current state of American Law Enforcement is so fucked up, corrupt, full of folks who are mindless robots for politicians, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, what is YOUR solution?

Once again..........For those that believe that American policing has moved towards a "militarization" or more of an "us vs. them" mentality (so to speak), what is the Era in American history that YOU believe was the "Golden Era"?

I could care less which era in US history had the best cops, because I am concerned about where we are headed and the law enforcement culture my children will have to deal with. The future does not look good for individual liberty if cops don't start refusing to do this stuff.