Is this nessesary?

[Maggot]

Are you saying that the 1968 Democratic Convention was the beginning of the downward spiral? So basically, everything prior to 1968 was what you consider the "Golden Era", when the Police were not militarized (no military weapons/ training) and no "us vs. them" mentality?

Just so I can get a clear picture.....

The beginning of the end was when the Federal Reserve was formed.

The Golden Era? ...It began when a small group of men pledged "our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." When it ended...sometime between the creation of the FED and the assassination of JFK.

Any more questions.

 

[MosesTheTank]

Are you saying that the 1968 Democratic Convention was the beginning of the downward spiral? So basically, everything prior to 1968 was what you consider the "Golden Era", when the Police were not militarized (no military weapons/ training) and no "us vs. them" mentality?

Just so I can get a clear picture.....

I don't think there is a debate on whether things are different than they once were. This is not a subject of little discussion (see links below, there is hardly a news organization that has not covered the topic). I suppose the questions are along the lines of appropriateness, consequences, accountability, and effectiveness. I know a few cops who have been around long enough to remember the pre-SWAT days, and some of them lament what has happened in the intervening time period. My personal view is that much of the historical role of policing in America has fundamentally changed.

History of S.W.A.T. - official website of THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT

'It's a warzone in the US': Indiana sheriff explains why he deployed heavy armor in his county ? RT USA

Paramilitary police: Cops or soldiers? | The Economist

Rise of the Warrior Cop - WSJ

Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America | Cato Institute

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/jus14-warcomeshome-report-web-rel1.pdf

ACLU: Police Departments Using Military-Style Weapons, Equipment - TIME

How the War on Terror Has Militarized the Police - Arthur Rizer & Joseph Hartman - The Atlantic

The Militarizing of Local Police - Forbes

I find it disheartening to see in this thread a microcosm of what has dampened police-community relations at large.

 

[SLINKY ERT]

The purpose of my question is that for just about EVERY period of American Law Enforcement, cops have used Military Weapons and equipment. From the 20s forward, cops have used Thompsons and BAR's in the prohibitionist era, those who think that the 40s and 50s were the great eras....GUNFIGHTER summed that up beautifully. Depends on what side of the stick you are on. I doubt African Americans see that period (hell, even through the 60s) as a great time. Until a ruling in 1985 (from an incident in the 70s), cops could shoot you for running away from the scene of a crime (see Tenn. vs. Garner). Even in the "Golden Eras" of days gone by, cops could slap you around or beat your ass with a baton and you better not complain. My Chief always laughs and says "You would have loved being on the job when I was a young Trooper. It was fun back then". My response is always the same....."The reason police work is so restrictive is because you guys had so much "fun" back then".

Now, cops are more recorded, scrutinized, villified, restricted (contrary to what the majority of you think), accountable, and society more litigious as a whole. Yet YOU think cops have more "freedoms" afforded to them now. Please. The original context of the thread was the MRAPS and how Law Enforcement is more "militarized" now than ever before. Naturally, it devolved into a "Fuck the Police" thread. I really expect no less.

I have seen pictures of Detroit PD from the 30's with racks of Thompsons, Shotguns, BAYONETS, etc. I would have to wonder if there was the same outcry back then.....

For the more astute of you, tell me what the modern day Class B (traditional) police uniform is patterned after. Here's a hint: It ain't a business suit.

 

[SLINKY ERT]

I could care less which era in US history had the best cops, because I am concerned about where we are headed and the law enforcement culture my children will have to deal with. The future does not look good for individual liberty if cops don't start refusing to do this stuff.

Refuse to do what? Accept .Mil equipment to save on taxpayer provided budgets? By my count, LE Agencies have been doing that for 90 years or more.

 

[SLINKY ERT]

Double post.

 

[fdkay]

... yeah, that's because I am. You think cops are treated just as regular citizens? No, they aren't. When a cop is on duty, he's suppose to be a public servant. He CAN NOT do what I did. Period. ... and must NOT be allowed to do so. When he's wearing that uniform, he's in a position of authority, granted him by the PEOPLE he serves. Completely different set of authority and responsibility. Completely different set of obligations.

I've seen an off-duty cop do almost the exact same thing I did. It was morally Ok for him... and it was morally Ok for me. Against the law on both accounts. Don't you see this disconnect?

An interesting moral compass to say the least "I will break the law because I wish to and don't hold myself to the same standards that I hold others to"
And yet you say the country as a whole has lost it's moral compass.
While I agree that Police Officers should be held to a standard, I disagree that others should be held to a lower standard.

 

[KYpatriot]

So slinky is your rebuttal really that citizens shouldn't complain because it could be worse? Your post is irrelevant. The citizens are complaining because they are tired of the abuses of the Constitution at every level. You can either acknowledge the problem or continue to rationalize away serious Constitutional infringement with the argument that the good ole boys got away with even more.

 

[SLINKY ERT]

So slinky is your rebuttal really that citizens shouldn't complain because it could be worse?

Please tell me where I said that. I have not put words in your mouth, please don't do the same to me. My point is that those who complain that cops nowadays are militarized, out of control, have no accountability...............seem to forget what LE of the past was allowed to do compared today, or they just get their idea of what LE used to be from "The Andy Griffith Show".

By you saying "I could care less which era in US history had the best cops, because I am concerned about where we are headed and the law enforcement culture my children will have to deal with. The future does not look good for individual liberty if cops don't start refusing to do this stuff.", you don't seem too interested to find out where or what caused us to be headed in the direction we are. Or just maybe it's personal perception or attitude that thinks that cops today are worse than cops in years before SWAT. No evidence to support it, just emotion.

The citizens "complaining" is what had led to the laws we are bound by today. People said "Hey, you really shouldn't beat people because of the color of their skin", or "Hey, how about no more shooting misdemeanants", or "No more searching people without Probable Cause". Guess what? Those of us that follow the law abide by them, and use them as the guide of how to do my job.

I am still curious as to what some of you would change about LE. I'm sure some of you have dealt with truly crooked cops. It also appears some of you think you know the law, but have a rough time knowing the actual law, or simply don't agree with them.

 

[orkan]

Now, cops are more recorded, scrutinized, villified, restricted (contrary to what the majority of you think), accountable, and society more litigious as a whole. Yet YOU think cops have more "freedoms" afforded to them now. Please. The original context of the thread was the MRAPS and how Law Enforcement is more "militarized" now than ever before. Naturally, it devolved into a "Fuck the Police" thread. I really expect no less.

Where the fuck did anyone say cops have "more freedoms afforded them?" Shitty cops and what they are doing is the RESULT of what is happening, not the cause.

You expect no less. NEITHER DO WE. We fully expect cops to be on the OPPOSITE side of us. THAT is the reality of the time we live in. We are trying to be free, and cops are trying to enforce laws which make sure we CAN NOT be free. Nearly your entire job is at odds with the constitution, and thus, at odds with us freedom-loving types. Pretty tough to say you support constitutional freedom when you arrest someone for carrying a defensive handgun in the WRONG SPOT IN THE COUNTRY, and throw his ass in jail. Now tell me if you were called out because a guy forgot to take off his CCW when he went in the court house to get his tags renewed, that you wouldn't enforce that COMPLETELY unconstitutional law. Tell me you'd do what most cops are claiming, in that you'd just refuse to do it, and side with that guy. Lets hear it. You agree with that law?

How about others?

Do you still enforce them?

... just doing your JOB... right?

 

[SLINKY ERT]

Where the fuck did anyone say cops have "more freedoms afforded them?" Shitty cops and what they are doing is the RESULT of what is happening, not the cause.

You expect no less. NEITHER DO WE. We fully expect cops to be on the OPPOSITE side of us. THAT is the reality of the time we live in. We are trying to be free, and cops are trying to enforce laws which make sure we CAN NOT be free. Nearly your entire job is at odds with the constitution, and thus, at odds with us freedom-loving types. Pretty tough to say you support constitutional freedom when you arrest someone for carrying a defensive handgun in the WRONG SPOT IN THE COUNTRY, and throw his ass in jail. Now tell me if you were called out because a guy forgot to take off his CCW when he went in the court house to get his tags renewed, that you wouldn't enforce that COMPLETELY unconstitutional law. Tell me you'd do what most cops are claiming, in that you'd just refuse to do it, and side with that guy. Lets hear it.

If I have to be sure not to violate someone's constitutional rights, how is my job at odds with it? I'm not a federal officer, so I don't police the country. In Maryland, you have to have a CCW to carry concealed. No CCW on file? Yep, that would be a problem for a Maryland resident. I can't tell you that I would enforce any law for someone walking into the courthouse with their CCW.....I don't have a courthouse or MVA in my jurisdiction. In my jurisdiction, we get along with the residents, talk with them, walk around, get called for anything and everything not even police related. Then again, there's one of me for 1800 people.

If you are asking me if I would confiscate weapons, go door to door, yada yada yada. I've said it before and apparently I need to say it again "NO". If you fully expect cops to be against you, it will always be a self fulfilling prophecy for you. Not all cops are against you, out to get you, out to violate your rights.

 

[SLINKY ERT]

I prefer a point gap of 0.0145 as it increases dwell time allowing for a larger voltage at coil collapse. Although you need to reset base timing after doing this,....

I was just gonna say this, but you beat me to it.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

sure why not.

better to see them utilized rather than seeing my weekly donation to the USA go to buy these then see them getting scrapped.

heck give 'em to the border patrol, or retro fit with some sort of gear for fire departments to use them for brush fires.

like a condom, rather have one and not have a reason, than have a reason, but not have one.

plus there's alot more "interesting" crap out in circulation of nit wits that like to do stupid shit just because they can. heck you can learn how to make a landmine on youtube.

 

[orkan]

If you are asking me if I would confiscate weapons, go door to door, yada yada yada. I've said it before and apparently I need to say it again "NO". If you fully expect cops to be against you, it will always be a self fulfilling prophecy for you. Not all cops are against you, out to get you, out to violate your rights.

How was what I asked in any way unclear? I didn't ask this did I? I laid out a pretty clear hypothetical, because THAT is how gun confiscation really happens. Not the "door to door" scenario.

Here's another for the cops here that are supposedly on "our" side: Guy fails to pay child support. Law says he can't have guns, but has them anyway. Are you going to go and arrest him and remove his guns?

The point here is that cops "doing their job" will be the mechanism by which we finally lose more of our rights. We see proof of this every day. Sure, the rights will be "legislated" away first... but the enforcement won't come from politicians. To think otherwise is naive.

 

[woojos]

For those that believe that American policing has moved towards a "militarization" or more of an "us vs. them" mentality (so to speak), what is the Era in American history that YOU believe was the "Golden Era"?

IMO, a lot of this is related to 9/11 "War on Terror" blowback. It's been a slippery slope for sure but the Constitution/Bill of Rights has taken a major hit. This MRAP distribution is a direct result of the formation of a new government LE agency, DHS. Granted it was part reorg, as existing agencies were put under the umbrella, but the net result was a ton of added money and man power, and a lot of those resources are trickling down to state and local LE.

Now, there's this issue of "Domestic Terrorists" which has a definite legal meaning, can apply to American citizens, and effectively removes all the rights given to them by the Constitution. I've seen it used to Sheriff's referring to drug dealers (the case where the toddler was flashbanged even though there were no drugs found) and by politicians referring to the "militia" in Bundy fiasco. I could probably find more if I looked hard enough.

If you are not the least bit concerned by this, you're understanding of human nature is either naive or incomplete, as mob mentality and panic sets in, and sooner or later, despite the best of intentions, there is a significant chance these laws will be applied wrongly or opportunistically creating a legal precedent effectively transforming America. Your privacy is already gone, I'm pretty sure there are those out there watching the Oathkeepers closely, which probably means anyone's contributions to this thread are being databased and stored for possible legal proceedings.

There's also this issue of "parallel reconstruction" where if evidence is gained in a manner not admissible by court, they just keep watching you, until you make a mistake.

There's even the case of lawful protests, like the occupy movement, who had a legitimate gripe but were generally treated and regarded as criminals versus citizens trying to take an active part in a constitutional republic.

Sooner or later, under this mentality, everyone becomes a potential "perp" as some like to call them.

LEO's tend to get caught in the middle of this, which is a shame because the majority are good human beings and doing a great service to their communities as there are scumbags out there. Some tend to react emotionally, as if they are under personal attack, when these things get discussed, which is a bad thing as they are the ones who have the most to gain from and add to the discussion.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Exactly

IMO, a lot of this is related to 9/11 "War on Terror" blowback. It's been a slippery slope for sure but the Constitution/Bill of Rights has taken a major hit. This MRAP distribution is a direct result of the formation of a new government LE agency, DHS. Granted it was part reorg, as existing agencies were put under the umbrella, but the net result was a ton of added money and man power, and a lot of those resources are trickling down to state and local LE.

Now, there's this issue of "Domestic Terrorists" which has a definite legal meaning, can apply to American citizens, and effectively removes all the rights given to them by the Constitution. I've seen it used to Sheriff's referring to drug dealers (the case where the toddler was flashbanged even though there were no drugs found) and by politicians referring to the "militia" in Bundy fiasco. I could probably find more if I looked hard enough.

If you are not the least bit concerned by this, you're understanding of human nature is either naive or incomplete, as mob mentality and panic sets in, and sooner or later, despite the best of intentions, there is a significant chance these laws will be applied wrongly or opportunistically creating a legal precedent effectively transforming America. Your privacy is already gone, I'm pretty sure there are those out there watching the Oathkeepers closely, which probably means anyone's contributions to this thread are being databased and stored for possible legal proceedings.

There's also this issue of "parallel reconstruction" where if evidence is gained in a manner not admissible by court, they just keep watching you, until you make a mistake.

There's even the case of lawful protests, like the occupy movement, who had a legitimate gripe but were generally treated and regarded as criminals versus citizens trying to take an active part in a constitutional republic.

Sooner or later, under this mentality, everyone becomes a potential "perp" as some like to call them.

LEO's tend to get caught in the middle of this, which is a shame because the majority are good human beings and doing a great service to their communities as there are scumbags out there. Some tend to react emotionally, as if they are under personal attack, when these things get discussed, which is a bad thing as they are the ones who have the most to gain from and add to the discussion.

 

[SLINKY ERT]

How was what I asked in any way unclear? I didn't ask this did I? I laid out a pretty clear hypothetical, because THAT is how gun confiscation really happens. Not the "door to door" scenario.

Here's another for the cops here that are supposedly on "our" side: Guy fails to pay child support. Law says he can't have guns, but has them anyway. Are you going to go and arrest him and remove his guns?

The point here is that cops "doing their job" will be the mechanism by which we finally lose more of our rights. We see proof of this every day. Sure, the rights will be "legislated" away first... but the enforcement won't come from politicians. To think otherwise is naive.

I think I answered your hypothetical. As for your next hypothetical.......Guy fails to pay child support. Got it. Is he unemployed, barely making ends meet, or just being a deadbeat? Law says he can't have guns. Got it. Is this a real fucking law somewhere? Not where I come from, but maybe where you come from. OK....how do I know he has guns? Informant? Personal knowledge? Magical database? Now, knowing that I cannot enter his residence and remove his property without a warrant, I would have to go to his residence and ask him to turn them over. He should probably be a smart fellow and say "I don't have them anymore. I sold them to my buddy a while ago. Come back with a warrant". I would then have to say "OK. Have a good day". It is Maryland Law that anyone who has a Protective Order against them has to turn in all their weapons until after the case is adjudicated. If I have no idea of what guns a guy has, how can I confiscate them? I don't see myself wasting time on obtaining a warrant for something I give 2 shits about. I have my feelings on the Protective Orders, and the process behind them. Much less as to how people are allowed to obtain them, and what happens BEFORE a court hearing.

Now, since you brought up a silly hypothetical....I would have the following questions: Why does he still have guns if his kids are going without? My kids are my life. I would sell every one of my guns to support them if I had no income, or not enough. I would do whatever it took. Is the hypothetical non payer a fucking deadbeat?

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Refuse to do what? Accept .Mil equipment to save on taxpayer provided budgets? By my count, LE Agencies have been doing that for 90 years or more.

Refuse to use unjust laws to skirt the rights of the people. I guess you didn't read all of this thread. The things like profiling, fishing, the no knock warrant searches, the forced blood removal, using authority of the badge to rule over the people then hide behind "I was only doing my job" or "it's legal for me to do it". Many officers are really good people and do a great job but there are far to many that are not. I has been discussed how not even the good ones do anything about the bad ones. Just look at the Abq. NM incident. Most of the country is outraged and the chief says " they were doing their job". Look at the video of the forced blood taking. The Sheriff says he doesn't care because the end justifies the means. We are getting drunks off the road. As Pusher591 and others stated we need these proactive policing tactics to keep you safe. How else are we gonna do it? My answer is don't!! If you pull me over for a tail light and bring out a dog for a "free air sniff" in order to get probable cause for a search. That is total BS. If you do it to the local drug dealer it's BS. It's fishing. If you pull me over for a tail light write me a fix it or a violation ticket and be on your way. How hard is that to understand. If you ask where you coming from, going to or do you have anything in your car I should know about? Piss off and write the ticket. Fishing for your PC!! Yep the "LAW" has ok'd this but is it an infringement of the constitution? Others here seem to think it's ok because it's "legal". What say you?

 

[Shoottothrill]

Hey Pusher I don't dislike the police. They have a tough job to do and a lot of shit to put up with. All I ask of any officer is to put the Constitution that they swore to uphold first and foremost. Give every citizen the benefit of the doubt first and foremost. We want to like and help the police. We want you to be there when we need you. What we don't want is to be treated with dis-respect, treated as a criminal first and honest citizen second.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Why does he still have guns if his kids are going without? My kids are my life. I would sell every one of my guns to support them if I had no income, or not enough. I would do whatever it took. Is the hypothetical non payer a fucking deadbeat?

There is quite a big difference between wanting to make sure your kids have food and clothes and being too broke to pay for drugs, beer and sneakers for your whore of an ex and her new live in boyfriend who realize that they are under no obligation to spend any of the money on the kids and the law prohibits you from doing anything to check or make sure any of the money gets to the kids. And you can't keep a job because they keep dragging you into court all the time and destroying your life.

So because you have been dragged into poverty thanks to an evil and utterly wicked court system designed to turn good men into slaves, you don't have the right to have anything to protect yourself?

I recall there being a constitutional right to have the means to defend yourself, but don't seem to remember a constitutional amendment that gives you the automatic right to use a kid as a paycheck to live the good life.

Before you go repeating the mindless propaganda about "deadbeats", perhaps you might want to look a lot deeper into the horrors and destruction of people's lives that is the Family Court system all around the western world, that the police are so ever happy to be a part of (since I guess it's so much more fun to oppress good hard decent men that are having their lives destroyed by evil women, then to actually deal with people that hurt others).

As I always tell people, you would have a better chance being a same sex loving, descendant of Judah, gypsy, resistance fighter explaining to an SS officer why he should let you walk out the front gate of the concentration camp than to be a good man trying to get justice in the family court system.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

There is quite a big difference between wanting to make sure your kids have food and clothes and being too broke to pay for drugs, beer and sneakers for your whore of an ex and her new live in boyfriend who realize that they are under no obligation to spend any of the money on the kids and the law prohibits you from doing anything to check or make sure any of the money gets to the kids. And you can't keep a job because they keep dragging you into court all the time and destroying your life.

So because you have been dragged into poverty thanks to an evil and utterly wicked court system designed to turn good men into slaves, you don't have the right to have anything to protect yourself?

I recall there being a constitutional right to have the means to defend yourself, but don't seem to remember a constitutional amendment that gives you the automatic right to use a kid as a paycheck to live the good life.

Before you go repeating the mindless propaganda about "deadbeats", perhaps you might want to look a lot deeper into the horrors and destruction of people's lives that is the Family Court system all around the western world, that the police are so ever happy to be a part of (since I guess it's so much more fun to oppress good hard decent men that are having their lives destroyed by evil women, then to actually deal with people that hurt others).

As I always tell people, you would have a better chance being a same sex loving, descendant of Judah, gypsy, resistance fighter explaining to an SS officer why he should let you walk out the front gate of the concentration camp than to be a good man trying to get justice in the family court system.

Seems like the police don't mind putting a label on a whole group but despise it when it's done to them. I have seen what you're saying many times. The actions of a few don't make the whole.

 

[bogeybrown]

In a (large) nutshell:

Our Constitution was the framework for our entire system of government. Very early on our founders decided to specifically enumerate limitations on the government in it's dealings with the citizens. They did so in the form of the first 10 amendments. Keep in mind that at the time of our Constitution, slavery was entirely legal and the law did not apply to all men (or women) equally.

Since that time, every single town, city, county, and state has made its own laws based on the mores of its citizens. The (not always correct) presumption is that those laws are framed against the limitations set forth in The Bill of Rights. Places with stricter religious beliefs had more "public morals laws" than other places. More rural places had fewer ordinances than big cities. Where you lived (and still live) in America dictates the level to which YOUR elected leaders have legislated the limits placed on your individual freedoms. Thus it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. The law is the product of the politicians that WE AS A PEOPLE put into public office and allow to regulate our lives. Some places have strict liquor laws, many of which are illegally linked to religious influence in the community. Those laws exist because the people that live there accept them and even request them. Even in the days of the frontier, once a town had more merchants than gunslingers, they enacted town ordinances to prohibit the carrying of firearms on the streets. They as a collective made that decision. America has always had laws, and as long as it has had laws it has had some form or Law Enforcement.

To believe that our founding fathers envisioned an America without law, or the rule of law, isn't even worth addressing. Because of our history, America (with the exception of Louisiana) holds to a version of the English Common Law by which the prior rulings of courts are held as the basis for the future rulings of courts until a case arises that challenges that basis and new law is formed. From these cases we have gotten the benchmark cases which govern the limitations of law enforcement (Terry, Garner, Mapp, Miranda, etc).

What was never foreseen or planned for by our founders was the idea of a welfare state, or of government entitlement. The idea of the government providing all of a person's daily wants and needs for the entirety of their lives for generation after generation was a much later invention, and has since forever changed the fabric of our society and by extension the role of LE in society.

Law Enforcement in America (officially) has an incredibly narrow role in the overall Criminal "Justice" System (I use that term formally, not to imply that the system has anything to do with the administration of actual justice). Law Enforcement does not propose law. It does not enact law. It does not even interpret law. By it's very nature it ENFORCES law. That's it. All the other awesome things that police officers do on a daily basis are generally outside of their official duties: helping stranded motorists, family counseling, civil-dispute mediation, etc. Just as local laws are a reflection of the people in that community and their priorities, so is the Law Enforcement in that community.

The idea that LEO should disregard the law and do "what they think is right" is one of the most terrifying ideas imaginable. I say that as a former LEO. The ONLY way for LEO to have any accountability is to operate within the LAW. Not their personal moral code, not what feels good, not what's popular, and certainly not what they think is "just". Once you open THAT door then you have taken an organization and turned it into as many individuals. The law can be read and it can be interpreted. The law, by its nature, is codified, and can be reviewed and repealed as necessary. It is the set of rules that any citizen can read and understand to be the acceptable and prohibited behavior wherever they are in America. To embrace the idea that LEO should disregard the law and do what THEY think is right is to invite the unavoidably random and capricious application of power without any binding guidelines.

Many of you are lucky enough to live in parts of America where there are not large urban centers of violent crime, gangs, lawlessness, etc. Many of you are fortunate enough to have as your neighbors other people like you who get up every day, kiss their kids, go off to work to contribute to society, and come back home to the (two-parent) household to sit in your lazy-boys and pull an Al Bundy at the end of a day spent as a productive member of society. Many of you will not have an interaction with LEO other than for a traffic infraction or if you need to report a property crime. You are the citizens who are caught up in the huge net of laws that were written largely for the "other people" who do not function within society but who instead feed off of it and are responsible for an insanely disproportionate amount of the crime.
Those people know the law as well as anyone simply so that they may circumvent it for their unlawful purposes. They know "the rules of the game" and what LE can and can't do. THIS is where LE has become incredibly proficient at using the law to the greatest advantage while still operating within its confines. It's how LE manages to catch bad guys in a system that, by its nature, protects the criminals more adamantly than it does the average productive citizen.

If you are unhappy that LE is able to operate WITHIN THE LAW and still interject itself into the lives of citizens, then that requires an overhaul of our legislative and judicial structure. Today's LE, despite the high-profile fuckups, is still the most educated and well trained LEOs that have ever policed America. EVER. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for our society as a whole.

 

[SLINKY ERT]

W54 and DarnYankee,

It would seem the both of you only want to extract what you want from my post and rail on about it. I said that is what I would do. I would do whatever it took for my kids. Period. I give 2 fucks what you would do.

Since I was posed a very broad hypothetical scenario, I was asking about the hypothetical non payer's motivations for not paying. Read the ENTIRE post and see that I asked the same questions in the narrative questions. This had nothing to do with my feelings towards those that don't pay. Fucking spare me your lectures about why guys don't/ can't pay. My brother was so far in arrears that his license was suspended, even while sitting in jail. The payments weren't stopped even while he was in jail - they just kept piling up. Even when he could pay, he could barely make it by. So I am very aware of those that work their asses off and live like paupers after the money is taken from their paychecks. Fucked up system? One of many.

I could go on and on about MY personal feelings towards writing tickets, Protective Orders, Domestic Assault, Child Support, etc. I won't bother wasting the bandwidth. Some of you would much rather think that we are all out to get you, we're coming for your guns, we're out to make you slaves, place ourselves above you, than think that there are cops out there that feel the same as you do on a myriad of issues.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Slinky,
Don't get all bent. My point in this thread has been that LE has pushed the bounds to the infringement of the constitution. Not all officers but many of them have crossed the line. Some dance that line and think because what they do is justified by an unjust law or ruling by a judge or accepted practice that they are still good cops. I say that if you stop me for a tag light or speeding etc.... write the ticket and have a nice day. When you start asking where I am coming from, going to or what is in my car I say FO. This using a disclaimer of we are preventing drunk driving or drugs out of town or whatever is BS. I know it's hard because you are on the blue side but think if you would want some of these things done to your wife or daughter. Let's say some officer thinks your daughter or her car looks out of place while driving to Baltimore. He pulls some BS excuse to pull her over and says he has probable cause to search her and her car. Pulls her out cuffs her, searches the car and gives her a good groping. He decides to send her down the road with a warning for improper turn or some other BS. How are you gonna feel? Now you go down to his department and they say "Oh he is a good cop. your daughter is imagining it". 2 years later you find this clown has had multiple accusations but no one on the job would give him up as a bad cop. And he is still on the job. Now how are gonna feel? The whole point is. It should never have happened!! If she did something he should have wrote the ticket and sent her on the way. Now the expansion into no knock warrants and a bunch of other crap under the "PROACTIVE POLICING" is out of hand. That has been the basis of my points in this thread.

 

[KYpatriot]

As usual BB well said. The problem really is an apathetic population that is more interested by far in their gov check rather than the rule of law, and so elect leadership who give them what they want at the price of liberty. If it was only their liberty if be happy to let them sink but they are taking all of us down with them, and those of us that believe in the principles of the Constitution and the rule of law it demands are tired of it.

What we are asking is for LE to stand in the gap for us. Without men with badges willing to do what they are told tyrants and would be tyrants lose their power to play these games at the expense of the citizen. As things continue to degenerate LE will have to make a choice between principle and their jobs. It is absolutely unfair to them that society has placed them in this position and worse it was totally preventable if we all had done our jobs as citizens and held these "leaders" accountable for the ridiculous laws and policies LE is being asked to enforce.

We can debate how we got here, but we have adequate justification to be concerned with LE trends, and we need them to save us not from common crime but from the destruction of the rule of law.

 

[bogeybrown]

As usual BB well said. The problem really is an apathetic population that is more interested by far in their gov check rather than the rule of law, and so elect leadership who give them what they want at the price of liberty. If it was only their liberty if be happy to let them sink but they are taking all of us down with them, and those of us that believe in the principles of the Constitution and the rule of law it demands are tired of it.

What we are asking is for LE to stand in the gap for us. Without men with badges willing to do what they are told tyrants and would be tyrants lose their power to play these games at the expense of the citizen. As things continue to degenerate LE will have to make a choice between principle and their jobs. It is absolutely unfair to them that society has placed them in this position and worse it was totally preventable if we all had done our jobs as citizens and held these "leaders" accountable for the ridiculous laws and policies LE is being asked to enforce.

We can debate how we got here, but we have adequate justification to be concerned with LE trends, and we need them to save us not from common crime but from the destruction of the rule of law.

We agree.

Every day LE defies higher authority in their own subtle ways. I think we discussed it on another similar thread. Cops are the most non-compliant, contrary group of people I ever worked with. I supervised oil field crews of 100+ people, 80% of whom were convicted felons, and those guys were lambs compared to cops when it came to authority.
However, cops have to circumspect in how they defy authority and most aren't going to piss away their livelihoods every time some boss/politician comes up with a stupid idea. If they did they'd never even survive their probation periods.

Again we discussed this in another thread, but the greatest strength and simultaneous weakness of LEO is that each brings their own humanity and personal perception to the job. I made the comment that today's LEO are the most educated and highly trained in history, and I believe that. However, what I failed to say, and should have, is that even though today's officers are more educated and trained, this trend in LE recruiting may not be the best choice:
Years ago, the coppers were true members of a community. Many of them were the big tough guys with limited education but incredible common sense and street smarts. They didn't have college degrees or even advanced degrees as is common today, but they had real-world experience as human beings that gave them perspective. One of my big frustrations was the young guys right out of college with CJUS degrees who were doing LE as basically they're first full-time jobs. We'd go to calls and I'd be floored at their lack of understanding of a situation. I'd ask them how the hell they could handle a non-violent domestic dispute and talk to people about what was going on if they'd never encountered any of the issues at play. They had no concept of "the street", but they had a college degree and therefore made more money than cops that had been on the job for 10yrs. The young "educated" officers are pretty compliant because they don't have enough real-world common sense to know better.

Now, the old bastards were more prone to skirt the law, take liberties, accept gratuities, etc, but they were the neighborhood cops and they knew everyone. Some made the transition to "modern policing" and some didn't.

American society continues to re-invent or revise what it expects from its government and by extension its police. The swing immediately post 9/11 was HUGELY in favor of security over liberty, wrongly but understandably so. We've made small strides towards regaining some balance but there are currently enormous obstacles to meaningful change.

If the ultimate showdown that so many are afraid of comes about, LE will be divided as will the citizenry. LE is not of one mind despite the perception of the Blue Wall. I was perpetually amazed at some of the approaches different officers took when handling the same calls. In the worst-case showdown scenario, some of the officers will happily drone along and do what they're told; some will flat out refuse and show their ass; and others will quietly ignore what they've been told to do while pretending otherwise.

The last few (6) years have seen, in my opinion, the most egregious circumvention of our democratic process in the modern era, if not our entire national history. The choices we make in the next few years will either continue that trend or will stop the madness and hopefully set us on the path of common sense. Common sense in government is a huge goal to hope for, but without it then you're not going to see it trickle down to LE.

 

[orkan]

The last few (6) years have seen, in my opinion, the most egregious circumvention of our democratic process in the modern era, if not our entire national history. The choices we make in the next few years will either continue that trend or will stop the madness and hopefully set us on the path of common sense. Common sense in government is a huge goal to hope for, but without it then you're not going to see it trickle down to LE.

Pretty well sums it up there.

 

[Maggot]

I think this fellow speaks for most of us:

1 Marine vs. 30 Cops: Sgt. Shamar Thomas (By. J. handy) - YouTube

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

They just cant keep themselves out of the news. not even two days ago someone was sentenced for beating a handcuffed individual and now Dallas police confuse Talib brothers, mistakenly announce arrest of Aqib

 

[usmc02xx]

Orkan,

If the current state of American Law Enforcement is so fucked up, corrupt, full of folks who are mindless robots for politicians, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, what is YOUR solution?

Once again..........For those that believe that American policing has moved towards a "militarization" or more of an "us vs. them" mentality (so to speak), what is the Era in American history that YOU believe was the "Golden Era"?

im not sure there was ever a golden age, thers always been messed up people and messed up cops. But if i had to give a tipping point id say the prohibition era.

And, this isnt directed at you, since im typing anyway i will just say that yes, i am willing to accept more danger to be more free. It is a pretty shitty thing to start talking about when its your kid that dies blah blah blah. Isnt that the way of all people who are trying to fuck you. Give you a worst case scenario and then tell you if you cared about your children youd just let us take a little more control...

Maybe i care about my children so much that im willing to accept danger on their behalf so they can be free men. I know, its radical idea.....

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

IMO The golden era of police relations so to speak was when the average citizenry were armed mostly with the exact same weapons and the exact same skills to use them as the police. This could be anywhere from 1775 to the NFA at which point it became more tedious for the populace to get weapons with a happy switch than the police. If theres someone who understands nothing else, they will understand force, it doesnt get to any more of a basic level. And when everyone is on an equal footing, I think things go smoother. Say what you will about a prohibition arms race, I say there should be no prohibition. And lets leave racism out of this. Im sure most here had a relative on either side of the grey or blue. I had a grandpap who fought for the Confederates, also had a grandpap who fought against the redcoats, even after receiving a land grant from the King. Slavery is flat out wrong we can all agree, so is racism, but ultimately both of those men whom I descend from were fighting against a powerful central government that they felt were doing wrong, or taking their power away from the states, etc.

Not only that but more upstanding folks raised correctly. I mean a pap in the house that is there to beat the snot out of them when they screw up and make them work in the field/yard/do something to earn their meal. Going back to this would make a huge change IMO.

If I had it my way, Id say we need no police at all. Just a system where each and every citizen has the responsibility to step up everytime a crime takes place. I dont mean a whole bunch of crap that some judge said was the law. I mean make it so things WE ALL know are wrong. Keep the civil courts and anything that isnt included in that is a civil matter.

The media would say this results in a wild west scenario. Personally I dont see what was wrong with that. If some outlaw came in raising cane and the town didnt like it, they could/would deal with it.

However a few problems can arise. For one, people who have that special ability of very good speaking skills and swaying crowds(rarely do I trust or listen to anyone like that - if they dont have their own agenda they work for someone who does). Those types could easily get a lynch mob together on someone otherwise innocent by convincing a crowd they did wrong. Im not sure how to fix that but Im sure it could be. The other issue is, in a few words, "my pap may have been a horse thief but you killed him so now I kill you" issue. This would also need fixing and I dont know how but once again theres likely a way.

Ie look at how the Amish police and conduct themselves, I dont see why we couldnt do the same.

 

[Maggot]

Let me make it clear, these are not my words. I just stumbled across it and it does seem relevant to this discussion. Seems like more than just a few hold similar views.

ANONYMOUS MESSAGE TO ALL UNITED STATES POLICE OFFICERS - YouTube

 

[bogeybrown]

Let me make it clear, these are not my words. I just stumbled across it and it does seem relevant to this discussion. Seems like more than just a few hold similar views.

Actually, no, I don't feel that is relevant or in any way helpful to promoting what has accidentally evolved into the meaningful discourse in this thread.

When many of us have acknowledged that there needs to be a shift from an "us versus them" mindset. putting forth a video who's sole and stated purpose is to promote an "us vs them" mentality is in no way helpful. Would the same video made from the standpoint of LE telling the citizens that they're coming to get them and don't dare resist be in any way be helpful? NO. So how on Earth could that video be in any way helpful to promoting a cooperative approach between the citizens and LEO?

I understand that you, personally, enjoy throwing things out there to see what response you get and to promote discussion. I respectfully feel that in this case the sole intent was inflammatory rather than helpful.

 

[Maggot]

I think it relevant in that it shows that a LOT of people are upset with what is going on. Not just a few. It only says use your camera, which I think important for the citizen to remember. The DOJ say that it is entirely legal for a citizen to film an LEO at work..

I post things because I think them relevant, or interesting, sometimes funny, not to stir shit up, as I have been accused. The chips fall where they may, and may reveal something about the one who comments.

As to its "Us vs Them" honestly, thats about all I've seen on here, especially from the LEO's. "We're right, get used to it." It's sad, and not what I would choose, but thats what I've seen. Woojoos may be making some progress.

Regardless, I enjoy your posts.

Mag

 

[bogeybrown]

I think it relevant in that it shows that a LOT of people are upset with what is going on. Not just a few. It only says use your camera, which I think important for the citizen to remember. The DOJ say that it is entirely legal for a citizen to film an LEO at work..

I post things because I think them relevant, or interesting, sometimes funny, not to stir shit up, as I have been accused. The chips fall where they may, and may reveal something about the one who comments.

As to its "Us vs Them" honestly, thats about all I've seen on here, especially from the LEO's. "We're right, get used to it." It's sad, and not what I would choose, but thats what I've seen. Woojoos may be making some progress.

Regardless, I enjoy your posts.

Mag

Fair enough.

As the video by its nature is anonymous and doesn't represent any group or person other than a CG version of Guy Fawkes (I think?) then for all we know, and is highly likely, it was made by a 16yr old honor's student from his parents' basement.

As assinine as this sounds, a huge disconnect between the public's perception of LE and the reality of LE is driven by Hollywood/TV. I can't tell you how many times we'd get asked why we couldn't just shoot someone in the hand or the leg when they pointed guns at us. Or why it took 4 officers to get a violent subject into custody. That shit looks easy on the big screen but in real life it doesn't happen that way. All one need do is look at every single fight that's ever been portrayed on TV/Cinema compared to what a real fight looks like. But that's the perception because it's what everyone gets bombarded with on a daily basis for their entire lives.

 

[Maggot]

Fair enough.

As the video by its nature is anonymous and doesn't represent any group or person other than a CG version of Guy Fawkes (I think?) then for all we know, and is highly likely, it was made by a 16yr old honor's student from his parents' basement.

As assinine as this sounds, a huge disconnect between the public's perception of LE and the reality of LE is driven by Hollywood/TV. I can't tell you how many times we'd get asked why we couldn't just shoot someone in the hand or the leg when they pointed guns at us. Or why it took 4 officers to get a violent subject into custody. That shit looks easy on the big screen but in real life it doesn't happen that way. All one need do is look at every single fight that's ever been portrayed on TV/Cinema compared to what a real fight looks like. But that's the perception because it's what everyone gets bombarded with on a daily basis for their entire lives.

+1

 

[ArmyJerry]

Well it might not be helpful in bringing the parties together in a decent manner, but when Joe middle class, law abiding, constitutional believing, citizens like me starts to actively avoid interacting with the police on any level, there is a problem. A big problem. The gang in blue just want us to submit, the citizens have gone along to get along to a point you have cops beating the shit out of people in wheel chairs in a holding cell, there is an example in the videos you can click on after the above video ends. Blind faith and unquestioning compliance has bought us to a point that we have a culture that is untenable in a lot of our LEO agencies, self policing is not working, militarization of the agencies is happening at a rapid pace. Mayberry now has MRAPS in case they get attacked by the Taliban. Barney frikken Fife has a frikken MRAP, something is not right and if it does not change it will end badly for all.

Actually, no, I don't feel that is relevant or in any way helpful to promoting what has accidentally evolved into the meaningful discourse in this thread.

When many of us have acknowledged that there needs to be a shift from an "us versus them" mindset. putting forth a video who's sole and stated purpose is to promote an "us vs them" mentality is in no way helpful. Would the same video made from the standpoint of LE telling the citizens that they're coming to get them and don't dare resist be in any way be helpful? NO. So how on Earth could that video be in any way helpful to promoting a cooperative approach between the citizens and LEO?

I understand that you, personally, enjoy throwing things out there to see what response you get and to promote discussion. I respectfully feel that in this case the sole intent was inflammatory rather than helpful.

 

[bogeybrown]

Are you telling me a shotgun blast wont pick a guy up off his feet and send him flying through a window?

I'm sure that like me, you've actually heard some fucking "expert" tell someone that it actually happens. They tend to get that glazed look when you mention the pesky idea of equal and opposite reactions as proposed by some guy named Newton.

 

[bogeybrown]

Well it might not be helpful in bringing the parties together in a decent manner, but when Joe middle class, law abiding, constitutional believing, citizens like me starts to actively avoid interacting with the police on any level, there is a problem. A big problem. The gang in blue just want us to submit, the citizens have gone along to get along to a point you have cops beating the shit out of people in wheel chairs in a holding cell, there is an example in the videos you can click on after the above video ends. Blind faith and unquestioning compliance has bought us to a point that we have a culture that is untenable in a lot of our LEO agencies, self policing is not working, militarization of the agencies is happening at a rapid pace. Mayberry now has MRAPS in case they get attacked by the Taliban. Barney frikken Fife has a frikken MRAP, something is not right and if it does not change it will end badly for all.

Jerry I hear you. I have avoided LEO my entire life. I avoided them as a kid, I avoid them now, and I avoided them when I WAS ONE. I was taught at a very early age not to draw the attention of LE because most outcomes would be bad. I have never sought the involvement of LE in my life and was insanely circumspect of which of my co-workers I socialized with outside of work.
I honestly could give a fuck if LE has MRAPs though. As I said, if someone is going to do something fucked up, how they got there doesn't matter to me, and conversely, I don't see where their method of conveyance in any way affects the substance of their behavior. If there were a Mayberry today I'm sure it would be full of meth cooks

 

[orkan]

but when Joe middle class, law abiding, constitutional believing, citizens like me starts to actively avoid interacting with the police on any level, there is a problem. A big problem. The gang in blue just want us to submit, the citizens have gone along to get along to a point you have cops beating the shit out of people in wheel chairs in a holding cell

BINGO!

Until laws actually have some bearing on what is right or wrong again, it will just keep getting worse. The wedge will be driven deeper, and the gap between police and citizens will get wider.

I think TV/movies have very little to do with it. Most people know that when they are watching a movie, it's not reality. Seeing actual video of 3 cops knock a 80yr old frail great-grandmother to the floor and break her arm... that's real. So are most of the viral video's that get traction showing cops doing exactly what they are NOT suppose to be doing. Lets not make the mistake of thinking this behavior is NEW for cops. I remember hearing stories of it from relatives as far back as I can remember. The only difference is now nearly everyone has a smartphone with video/audio capability... so they are finally getting CAUGHT doing exactly what someone trained them to do. Sure, it's worse now, as society is worse now... but it sure as heck isn't a new thing.

 

[bogeybrown]

I will disagree with you, the method has a lot towards mind set, prior to kick off, and that is simple fact. Delivery to the field of play, has a lot of input on what mind set is for the operation when the door opens, or the ramp drops. Would/are you keyed up as much riding to a no knock via Armored transport or a plain Jane van. Logic says it should not matter,.... but it does.
Just turning on the over heads or siren make some get tunnel vision, and the longer the ride/chase the closer to target lock they get.

I know where you're coming from, and I actually considered that dynamic when I posted the above.

You're right in that mindset has a ton to do with it. From my own personal experience, unless it was in a CH47 flying blacked out, nape of earth, to put me on a bad guy's doorstep, how I got there really didn't have a big effect on me. In fact, the more armored the vehicle the slower and more lumbering the delivery and the more irritated I got, not the more "jacked up". In the States I rode to warrants in everything from a pickup truck to a panel van and it was all the same. I was focusing on my piece of the puzzle and running scenarios through my head. For that reason I would ask for all the music and shit to be cut off, because more than any other stimulus, I'd see guys get all jacked up on moto music on the way to hit a door and that wasn't the energy I wanted.

MRAPs don't have stereos, so I guess that would be a moot point

 

[Maggot]

Lets not make the mistake of thinking this behavior is NEW for cops. I remember hearing stories of it from relatives as far back as I can remember. .

I dont remember it but Ive read of the OK Corral

 

[Maggot]

 

[TravelingMan]

Well, I don't have anything real technical or smart sounding to say, but I will tell you a very personal story. Last Spring, around April 2013, my girl friend and I got pulled over leaving a bad type apartment complex. I had her drive by there, so I could show her where I lived for 5 months of my life. Upon pulling out and leaving the complex, blue lights came on behind us, a few miles down the road. The officers walked up to both her and my car windows. The officer on her side asked to see her ID and the one on my side tapped on the window for me to roll it down. I was asked to step outside of the vehicle. Since I knew my rights and the fact I knew she wasn't speeding, I politely stated that I had had a few beers earlier and felt like it would be better for me to stay in the car for my safety, unless I was under arrest, then I was staying in. Well, because of that, the other officer resumed picking on my constitutionally ignorant girlfriend, and asked her to step to the back of the vehicle. They asked if any drugs were present and if he could search the car. She said yes, but she also threw me under the bus about an open bottle that was still in the vehicle, that was mine. She said, she had never had a ticket before, so they just left it along and her on her way. But,,, before that, one officer ask why I had been upset earlier and my girlfriend replied, that a military buddy of mine had just died.. He tried to act all concerned, to her, and gave her his card, and stated that he was a vet also. He acted like he cared for me because we both were vets.. That's at least how she said it went down. Anyway, she did state to me after entering the car, that the officer kept telling her that she didn't look like someone that would be with me.. I'm thinking that's when he handed the card over. Well to make a long story short, in June of 2013, the day the moon was it's largest for the year, I caught them in bed together, but with clothes on.... We broke up but had sex the whole year while she was with him. I knew the officer had profiled her for her money and families 700 plus acres of land... I was with her because we had been friends since 12yr and had a childhood bond.. I never dated girls I grew up with but she was my best friend and saved my life that Jan. of 2013 when she took me to the VA so I could get help for drinking. During that whole year she was with him, she would tell me personal stuff about him. She would find narcotic pain pills in his uniform and her personal prescribed stimulate diet pills would come up missing. Also, one time she found a few strips of Subozone used by heroin addicts, in his shaven bag, that he stated was for back pain. He said, he had to take it just incase he wrecked on duty and had to submit a blood or urine sample. She had no clue. Docs prescribe that only to addicts not for back pain and he had no script. He knew Subozone doesn't show up in a test unless specifically tested for. To make an even longer story shorter, fast forward to today. She's pregnant and about due and telling people it's his and I personally know "SHE HAS NO CLUE!!!" She was with me and another guy at that time as well. I know the officer didn't see her as much as me because he lived 2.5-3hr a way. I may have a baby on the way from my best friend, in my adult life, whom I can't see anymore because of one traffic stop for no reason whatsoever. He came between me and a girl that saved my life from myself. His name is Christopher Chance Gains, from Wilcox County, Al... The other bad thing here is he was married the whole time.... His wife told my girlfriend, that Chance traded drugs for sex.. All this was said, so people can understand how the good officers act compared to the bad. As I stated in a earlier thread, it's ashamed the bad one's take the spot light away from the one's that have a true calling to serve.. People shouldn't abuse positions of power. All because of one, unconstitutional traffic stop ( for leaving a bad apartment complex ) to look for drugs, he does himself, my whole life and future has changed, with her considered. The point, why ignore the constitution and the rights of others, just to lock them up, for breaking the same laws you do??? I will never forget that day. That is hardest to deal with...

 

[ArmyJerry]

That guy is just a POS human, don't think its an issue at the heart of our discussion here. A bit of advice, stay away from that chick, nothing good will happen in that chicks life.

 

[bogeybrown]

Neither did M113s/a1's, mules, or Gama goats but some how it was different than Shit-hooks or UH-1's every time. Everyone handles their end of the rope in different ways but the average/weaker guys can be manipulated rather easily. Most especially if their new to the dance.

Absolutely agreed Sir and well said as usual. I always enjoy your take on things.

From a pure nuts and bolts standpoint I just don't see any of the MRAP variants being worth the hassle as a SWAT-deployment platform. They'e BIG, and loud, and slow and insanely obvious and as we mentioned probably on page one, there's no fast way OUT of one of them. I really see them as big free toys that will sit in parking lots and look cool unless a natural disaster warrants their use. The only "tactical" ( I hate that word ) use I could see for them in the U.S. would be as a moving bunker to evac hostages from say an active-shooter type scenario.

It's not in any department's interest to utilize them frequently because of the maintenance involved. Hell, the military itself needed contractors from the relevant companies to do maintenance on them. The first time one breaks and an administrator gets the repair estimate these things will be parked.

 

[pawprint2]

Are you telling me a shotgun blast wont pick a guy up off his feet and send him flying through a window?

It very well might, if you happen to have an old 2ga punt gun, and tried to fire it from the shoulder, but a 12ga? Not unless you are a little midget, or one of the 12 dwarfs, even then-up and through a window? I'm not thinking so...

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Well, I don't have anything real technical or smart sounding to say, but I will tell you a very personal story. Last Spring, around April 2013, my girl friend and I got pulled over leaving a bad type apartment complex. I had her drive by there, so I could show her where I lived for 5 months of my life. Upon pulling out and leaving the complex, blue lights came on behind us, a few miles down the road. The officers walked up to both her and my car windows. The officer on her side asked to see her ID and the one on my side tapped on the window for me to roll it down. I was asked to step outside of the vehicle. Since I knew my rights and the fact I knew she wasn't speeding, I politely stated that I had had a few beers earlier and felt like it would be better for me to stay in the car for my safety, unless I was under arrest, then I was staying in. Well, because of that, the other officer resumed picking on my constitutionally ignorant girlfriend, and asked her to step to the back of the vehicle. They asked if any drugs were present and if he could search the car. She said yes, but she also threw me under the bus about an open bottle that was still in the vehicle, that was mine. She said, she had never had a ticket before, so they just left it along and her on her way. But,,, before that, one officer ask why I had been upset earlier and my girlfriend replied, that a military buddy of mine had just died.. He tried to act all concerned, to her, and gave her his card, and stated that he was a vet also. He acted like he cared for me because we both were vets.. That's at least how she said it went down. Anyway, she did state to me after entering the car, that the officer kept telling her that she didn't look like someone that would be with me.. I'm thinking that's when he handed the card over. Well to make a long story short, in June of 2013, the day the moon was it's largest for the year, I caught them in bed together, but with clothes on.... We broke up but had sex the whole year while she was with him. I knew the officer had profiled her for her money and families 700 plus acres of land... I was with her because we had been friends since 12yr and had a childhood bond.. I never dated girls I grew up with but she was my best friend and saved my life that Jan. of 2013 when she took me to the VA so I could get help for drinking. During that whole year she was with him, she would tell me personal stuff about him. She would find narcotic pain pills in his uniform and her personal prescribed stimulate diet pills would come up missing. Also, one time she found a few strips of Subozone used by heroin addicts, in his shaven bag, that he stated was for back pain. He said, he had to take it just incase he wrecked on duty and had to submit a blood or urine sample. She had no clue. Docs prescribe that only to addicts not for back pain and he had no script. He knew Subozone doesn't show up in a test unless specifically tested for. To make an even longer story shorter, fast forward to today. She's pregnant and about due and telling people it's his and I personally know "SHE HAS NO CLUE!!!" She was with me and another guy at that time as well. I know the officer didn't see her as much as me because he lived 2.5-3hr a way. I may have a baby on the way from my best friend, in my adult life, whom I can't see anymore because of one traffic stop for no reason whatsoever. He came between me and a girl that saved my life from myself. His name is Christopher Chance Gains, from Wilcox County, Al... The other bad thing here is he was married the whole time.... His wife told my girlfriend, that Chance traded drugs for sex.. All this was said, so people can understand how the good officers act compared to the bad. As I stated in a earlier thread, it's ashamed the bad one's take the spot light away from the one's that have a true calling to serve.. People shouldn't abuse positions of power. All because of one, unconstitutional traffic stop ( for leaving a bad apartment complex ) to look for drugs, he does himself, my whole life and future has changed, with her considered. The point, why ignore the constitution and the rights of others, just to lock them up, for breaking the same laws you do??? I will never forget that day. That is hardest to deal with...

Wow, thats a shitty deal. I would also advise working toward keeping the girl at arm`s length. Unless you really wanna be with her and she is done with the copper. Ive worked myself into some pretty tight situations over girls and this sounds pretty tight. You will definitely wanna exercise caution and think with your brain not your appendage. Just look at eddieo`s situation over the pond. Police can really make your life hell if they want to.

 

[TravelingMan]

Have you ever wondered if they are even being issued for SWAT type uses? Their maybe a whole hell of a different reason for the U.S. Gov. issuing them out. We may want to remind ourselves why they were giving to the military in the first place. Why they were made?? One of the main reasons were because all the road side bombs and IED's in and around the Green Zone and all the soldiers elsewhere that were getting hit, in Humvees.. IED Alley comes to mind connecting Bagdad International. I wonder if the amount of armor they particularly have, and what they were actually designed for has anything to do with it. What do they think they may need them for? See, I'm asking questions why, instead of focusing on the fact they could use them for this or that? But, why would they feel they needed to? Do they think something could happen in the future here so bad that citizens will resort to making IED's?? Is it something simple as intimidation of the populace, in case of a certain simple event? Or, to get us use to and programmed to view law enforcement and peace officers as the German people did the Gestapo or secret police???

Absolutely agreed Sir and well said as usual. I always enjoy your take on things.

From a pure nuts and bolts standpoint I just don't see any of the MRAP variants being worth the hassle as a SWAT-deployment platform. They'e BIG, and loud, and slow and insanely obvious and as we mentioned probably on page one, there's no fast way OUT of one of them. I really see them as big free toys that will sit in parking lots and look cool unless a natural disaster warrants their use. The only "tactical" ( I hate that word ) use I could see for them in the U.S. would be as a moving bunker to evac hostages from say an active-shooter type scenario.

It's not in any department's interest to utilize them frequently because of the maintenance involved. Hell, the military itself needed contractors from the relevant companies to do maintenance on them. The first time one breaks and an administrator gets the repair estimate these things will be parked.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Sadly, GF, this scenario is the natural ending if the current logic continues. Joe pissed off American is a much more organized animal than the agencies think, they might not be now but Americans organize and react with diligence when they feel they have no other choice. More than any other that I have worked with in my life. These MRAPS will be smoldering ovens in short order in any urban environment. Unlike our wussy brethren in Europe our people protest in a much more violent manner and they are armed and know how to shoot as well as most LEO's. Militarization of the police forces of the US is nothing more than a "standing Army" in our country.

 

[TravelingMan]

I strongly agree!!! A friend of mine I've know since 7th grade stated "why in the hell does cops have the gear I had in Iraq?? This guy even comes from a law enforcement family dating back 2 generations!! He himself, after ETS out of 1st Calvary applied to be a cop, like his father and grandfather before him. His father was a Chief and decided to take an early retirement because what he saw coming in the future of law enforcement. He really hated dealing with these young, up coming guys that feel they have something to prove out on the beat! The up coming generation is the one to worry about, fore they are so brainwashed by the public education system and media, that they have no idea whatsoever what respect of the Constitution is!!!

We had a local "Team" get some very basic training from a known entity. When I inquired how they had progressed threw the course, the incite was telling. Before they could spell it they became one, and after training they were just itching to try their new skill set. Sad part was (per the cadre) they thought they were lacking the gear all the while they were lacking basic skills. When they were given the gear they REALLY wanted to try it out in the real world as quick as possible. This is the reason I do not like any type of Military gear given to Po-dunk want-a-bees. Police work is not Military work, and those who think it's the same are very sadly mistaken. To start applying Military tactics and battlefield gear other than small arms to police work is inviting a major push back. I'd hate to see the day when LAPD was flying CAP's w/out dated F-4's and such because, we all seen them shoot up grandma over a no body, they were very afraid of. Just think how they would react with 4 sidewinders and a few 500/1000 pounder's.

I can see it now,...
Today LAPD had an Mrap ambushed in So. central, all officers are dead, LAPD responded with their new Fox-4C, film at 1100. In other news there were two very, very large explosions in the No LA area, a local Vet described the aftermath and craters, as what he seen in V/N when 1000lb bombs were dropped, and fused improperly. On a side note LAPD is being given two 175mm Long Toms, the Chief said they were free and they could be used to protect the departments officers, given how the bad guys were stepping up their ability's.