Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

RayDBonz

RayDBonz

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 16, 2006
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Scottsdale, AZ
#1
I have a question about a custom rifle I own. I recently discovered something that I think is a bit strange. However, I really don't know, so I thought I'd ask those with more experience.

I finally got brave enough to remove the action from the stock. When I did, I found two aluminum 'shims' between the front portion of the action and the stock. One had a hole cut in it for the action screw. Now, these were not some fancy shim stock, but were cut from an aluminum beverage can (the brand name is still visible).

Is this a common or normal practice? Is this acceptable? It kind of makes me wonder if any other short cuts were taken. The rifle shoots fine, but still.

Some background on the rifle - this is a custom rifle built on a Remington 700 action by a well-known and respected gunsmith (I will not name names, so don't even ask - this is not to bash anybody, just to find out if this is common). It's in a McMillan stock, custom barrel, aluminum pillar bedding, etc, etc.

Has anyone ever seen this in a $3-4k rifle before?

I have an AICS stock ordered, so it's really not an issue, but I'd like to find out if this is an accepted practice.

Thanks for any insight.
 
#3
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

So you're just expected to drop these hand made shims back into the exact same place when you reassemble your rifle? How much was a proper pillar bed job? Another 1K?

Sounds hacky to me, at least in the 3-4K range!
 
#7
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

I can surely say only a true gun butcher would leave beer can shims between the stock and action. I am sure you will have to have it bedded. I would take pictures and send it to your gun butcher and request he send you a MO to have it bedded by someone who has some idea of what he is doing, also to cover shipping or else you will be glad to display his craftmanship on all the forums you are on. Everyone screws up and if he isn't a complete jerk he will try to make it right but I wouldn't send it back to him!!! That's my idea, for what it is worth. I think I can guess who the gunsmith was. Good luck

david
 
#8
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

Thanks for the quick replies.

To answer the questions -
- no pictures (I don't want speculation as to who built the rifle)
- it was advertised as being bedded to the stock

I guess bits of soda can isn't "aluminum pillar bedding"? LOL
 
#9
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

Thats half assed! If I paid that much for a custom build and found out it was shimmed, I would want some money back. He used the shims because he probably didn't seat the pillars correctly, or know how to bed the stock. Just a guess though.
 
#10
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

Don't know how we could tell or even speculate on who smithed it from showing the inside of a stock and shim placement but no it's not normal or would be acceptable to me. You need to get ahold of the smith and see what's up with that.
 
#12
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

Did you commission the build or did you buy it from someone else who was calming it was a custom built rifle? If it was purchased from a previous owner did you verify that it was indeed built by the "custom builder"?

Something that should be made very clear since it may have nothing to do with who built it but who may have been the previous owner.

No it is not normal to have shims between the stock and action.
 
#13
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you commission the build or did you buy it from someone else who was calming it was a custom built rifle? If it was purchased from a previous owner did you verify that it was indeed built by the "custom builder"?

Something that should be made very clear since it may have nothing to do with who built it but who may have been the previous owner.
</div></div>

Good point. This was direct from the builder to me (through my FFL of course - he opened the box in front of me). One I ordered and waited almost a year for. I guess that leaves the UPS guy or the builder. . .
 
#14
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

I had a rifle built from a reputable 'smith in the sillywet community and recently found that a lockwasher was epoxied in on top of the rear pillar as a spacer. Not even a plain washer but a slit lockwasher!!!! Rifle shot great, I popped the washer out and just let the action sit on the rest of the bedding for now.
However, its the last rifle he'll be building for me.
His cost is nowhere near what most "tactical" smiths charge so I'm not going to knock his name, but I won't be using him again either......

So I guess its not the first time.
 
#16
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RayDBonz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the quick replies.

To answer the questions -
- no pictures (I don't want speculation as to who built the rifle)
- <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">it was advertised as being bedded to the stock</span></span>

I guess bits of soda can isn't "aluminum pillar bedding"? LOL </div></div>

I would be mad if I drop that much money for some aluminum soda can bedding. How does it shoot BTW?
 
#18
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

Definitely not normal...The whole purpose of the bedding is to mate the receiver to the stock with no movement. It is also designed to be "repeatable". Not real easy with shims unless you get them back in the same place...
 
#19
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

I don't care how it shoots, because it can't be replicated. Either send it back or get the cash back.
Just my OP.
Chad
 
#20
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

If I payed 3-4K for a rifle like that and the "smith" is a known smith I would confront him with pics and demand $ so that you could have it properly bedded. If he refused then I would feel a NEED to publish his name and pics of the rifle so that others wont be taken by a unscrupulous ass!!!!!

Good luck and keep us posted!
 
#21
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

Well, here's what it looked like:

Tango004.jpg


And here are the aluminum bits:

Tango009.jpg


I have been told that it's possible the shims were used to help sort out a bedding issue. Once sorted out, they should have been removed and the pillars adjusted or whatever. Perhaps the builder 'forgot'. Maybe after he test fired it and was satisfied he neglected to finish up the job. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until he gives me reason not to.
 
#23
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

Holly Shit! I don't care how it shoots by looking at the picture, it should go back for the "proper" bedding. I am no gunsmith, but if you bed it properly, the need to shim it with an aluminum soda can, no less, is certainly remote. Any chance, your well known "gunsmith" thinks that you would never take the action apart.

You are a patient man, RayDBonz, if it were me, I would go ape-shit a while back. Just for curiosity, the well known "gunsmith" is NOT from AZ is he?
 
#24
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

If the rifle was properly bedded there is no reason, I repeat, no reason to have shims, or put shims between the action and the bedding.

The whole purpose of bedding is to have the barreled action and stock fit as one, stress free. Bedding the rifle then putting something in-between the bedding and barreled action defeats the bedding altogether.

If there was a "perceived problem" with the bedding you do the bedding over.

My guess is the rifle wasn't bedded correctly, there was contact with the barrel channel and to "fix" it the "shim" was put in as a band-aid fix, if you can call it that.

 
#25
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

Hell, it's not even beer, its that Hippy Tea Crap! Thats it son, you gotta burn the rifle now, Its had dirt hippy hands on it. DIRTY DIRTY DIRTY! Hope you did not spend a bunch on the rifle.
 
#26
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

If I paid that kind of money and received a product like that I would cry...

I would then start asking some questions....

seems like dodgy shit to me,

Get HateCA to fix that bedding for you
 
#27
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

well ive used shims(but always respectable beer can ones) on a rascally sight mount or two here at the house but never for something id sell to someone else as professionally "smithed."and never as a bedding. not cool edna.
 
#28
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

I am with HateCA,

Looks like it was bedded, the barrel was sitting too low in the stock channel and was touching somewhwere and the shims were added to correct the contact instead of re-doing the bedding properly. Thats why I alsways wrap enough tape around the barrel to get it centered and "sitting up" in the stock channel before the bedding compound is set in the stock.

Of course, this is just my 02 cents worth but I have bedded many stocks and have never had the need for shims. I have had to re-do a couple in the past for the reason listed above...hence the tape but there was no other alternative in my mind other than do it right....

I would definitely send it back to the builder with a letter strongly requesting that it be re-done ....correctly.
 
#29
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

That's not the sort of work I'd be paying someone to do.

If I wanted to try something like that, I'd do it myself to test whether it worked, but once I had my answer, I'd replace it with proper bedding.

As for seeking satisfaction, my approach would be to steer as clear of the individual as possible. Their work tells the story of their character, and I simply don't think bucking the tide with such individuals is ever worth the effort.

The rifle clearly needs a proper bedding. Cheaper in the long run, in terms of both money and aggravation, to simply seek out a reputable smith and have the job done right.

Chalk the rest up to 'damage done, lessons learned'.

BTW, I recognize the can art, I use the exact same thing for shims, etc., for my model airplanes.

Greg
 
#30
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RayDBonz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until he gives me reason not to. </div></div>

I think he's given you sufficent reason to do at least that.
 
#31
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

I would bet that it was not bedded correctly. A good way to check to see if your rifle is bedded correctly is to take a hold of the rifle at the front of the stock with you fingers around the barrel an loosen the front action screw an see if you feel any movment. If you do your action is NOT bedded correctly.

I have seen guys put a shim under one end or the other to "Eleminate" this movement so they don't have to redo the bedding job. This may be the case with your rifle. NOT something you would expect from a good rifle builder.
 
#33
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Just for curiosity, the well known "gunsmith" is NOT from AZ is he? </div></div>

Who should we watch out for in AZ? PM me if you don't want to post it publicly.
 
#35
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Just for curiosity, the well known "gunsmith" is NOT from AZ is he? </div></div>

Who should we watch out for in AZ? PM me if you don't want to post it publicly. </div></div>

Yes, please PM me as well, since you don't want to post it for all to see.
 
#37
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Just for curiosity, the well known "gunsmith" is NOT from AZ is he? </div></div>

Who should we watch out for in AZ? PM me if you don't want to post it publicly. </div></div>

Yes, please PM me as well, since you don't want to post it for all to see. </div></div>

The builder is not from AZ. I think that reference was to the Arizona brand iced tea can used.
 
#38
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

I don't usually get into these discussions but...Ray, there is absolutely NO reason for you to accept a rifle with that crap inside it, especially after waiting that long and paying the price you've paid for it.

I have several custom rifles made by fine reputable smiths that are all pillar bedded, that all cost around the same amount as what you've been gouged for, and none of them have anything remotely like what you have been asked to accept as a bedding job.

That is just disgusting and it doesn't matter how well it shoots when you get the bits of aluminum stacked up on the bedding. In reality you have no bedding job since the action is raised up above the bedding with that crap in between the two.

Two big thumbs down buddy.
frown.gif
Good luck with the outcome.
 
#39
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

Whatever... PM me with the info. Why someone would with hold the outfit's name is beyond me. If they are sending rifles out in that condition then they need to be held accountable or at the very least, need to be identified so they can either explain their situation, or we can keep from making a mistake with our hard earned money.
 
#40
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

it seems either the smith doesn't know how to bed a rifle, or he f*#ked it up and didnt want to spend the time to rebed it properly. Either way, if you plunked down $4K on that rifle, I would let that smith know its coming back to him to fix or you will be sending him the bill to have it properly bedded by someone else.

I have to question why you are withholding his name? He did a shitty job on your rifle, so why not let other people know who it was so they can stay clear of his shop and if anyone has one of his rifles, they can go check to see if they have "shims". If he is a stand up guy, then he will do what he needs to, in order to make it right. Any good smith should be willing to stand up and correct any mistakes in a public forum and show he stands behind his work and will either refund your money or take the rifle back and rebuild it correctly.
 
#41
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

I just went thru the same thing with a well known smith. Everyone has a bad day and if you contacted him and he refused.....by all means post his name/company. If you contacted him and he wants to make it right, with holding the name may be acceptable as like I said, we all have bad days now and then. SO, the questions is: Is he going to make it right? If NOT, let the name be known.
FWIW my "bad" smith was named all over every message board I could find because he refused to even take my calls.
 
#43
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

keydiver, like you suggest and like I said above I'd also give it a go-round with the smith first BUT I don't think aluminum can shims are just a "bad day", that's ridiculous for a smithy that claims to be top flight or charges fees like they are. A crappy bedding job is a bad day, can shims are simply half assed.

JMHO
 
#45
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

Putting pieces of a can in a rifle is not a bad day. It is ripping someone off.

You need to clarify who did it. That is inexcusable. No more "making it right" than returning stolen money after getting caught is "making it right".

By not naming names, you are casting suspicion on every smith. You say well known, so every well known maker could be suspect. That isnt fair to them. IMO
 
#46
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

That sux. Nothing worse than finding your finished bang toy now has to have more work done to it.

That shit happened to me once, but not on a custom rifle. I was 18 at a gun show in West Monroe LA. Bought a Remington 700 Varmint Special .22-250 as nib. Took it to a friend to bed it. He pulled it out of the stock and found the same thing. Piece of aluminum, but under the barrel just in front of the action. 13 years ago. It's amazing what some fuckers will pull.
 
#49
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RayDBonz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Just for curiosity, the well known "gunsmith" is NOT from AZ is he? </div></div>

Who should we watch out for in AZ? PM me if you don't want to post it publicly. </div></div>

Yes, please PM me as well, since you don't want to post it for all to see. </div></div>

The builder is not from AZ. I think that reference was to the Arizona brand iced tea can used. </div></div>

Is it safe to assume also that the "builder" is also not a prominent gunsmith from this website? I realize that you don't want to publish the name, but look from our standpoint, we don't want to be spending a lot of money on something that is done in a half ass fashion. If you want to keep it private, you can PM me.
 
#50
Re: Is this normal? Customary? Acceptable?

I agree with DesertHK.

I aint about to spend 3k+ with some "builder", if he puts out this half ass shit. You owe it to other consumers to publicly exploit his errors; so he learns his lesson.

josh
 
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