Issues in neck tutning 220 Russian Brasses to 6PPC

[Enrico Togni]

Hello to everybody. I have a unpleasant trouble in neck turning Lapua 220 Russian cases to fit in my new 6PPC .262 custom rifle neck chamber. The issue : When expanded the neck with a 243Sinclair expander I have to force a lot my opened cases into a a Sinclair neck turner pilot in order to reduce the original 0,015" tickness to 0,009" which is the proper size ,circa .261" outside diameter with bullet fitted. Unfortunately the tneck urning work is a real pain despte the Imperial wax lubricant I spread inside the case neck and the pilot.
When I investigated the matter I noted that ,not only either the expander and the pilot have exactly the same dimension, .243" but, probably due the high tickness and relative strong springback of my brasses neck the inside diameter results in a barely .237" that is 0,07" tighter than the .243 " pilot diameter resulting in a very, very pain in fitting and turning the brasses. The solutions might be to get a VERY oversized expander or a very undersized neck turning pilot according with the values exposed. I am not aware,not in Italy at least, of grossly oversized expanders neither grossly undersided pilots available (according with my needs) actually I try to overtake those problems in expanding the 220 Russian necks with a .224" expander and then neck turning with a 224" neck turing pilot ,in order to have a lesser effort on doing the job(it partialy works) and when the desired ticknes has nearly got, passing to a .243" expander and making fine neck turning adjustment with the .243" pilot to achive the desired 0,09"thikness.
Have anybody ther encountered the same issues and how did they solved it.
While I thank you for any hint and suggestions I apologize for my "bizzarre" English but I anyway confide in your indulgence and help
Thanks so much for your atention.

 

[ma smith]

Hello to everybody. I have a unpleasant trouble in neck turning Lapua 220 Russian cases to fit in my new 6PPC .262 custom rifle neck chamber. The issue : When expanded the neck with a 243Sinclair expander I have to force a lot my opened cases into a a Sinclair neck turner pilot in order to reduce the original 0,015" tickness to 0,009" which is the proper size ,circa .261" outside diameter with bullet fitted. Unfortunately the tneck urning work is a real pain despte the Imperial wax lubricant I spread inside the case neck and the pilot.
When I investigated the matter I noted that ,not only either the expander and the pilot have exactly the same dimension, .243" but, probably due the high tickness and relative strong springback of my brasses neck the inside diameter results in a barely .237" that is 0,07" tighter than the .243 " pilot diameter resulting in a very, very pain in fitting and turning the brasses. The solutions might be to get a VERY oversized expander or a very undersized neck turning pilot according with the values exposed. I am not aware,not in Italy at least, of grossly oversized expanders neither grossly undersided pilots available (according with my needs) actually I try to overtake those problems in expanding the 220 Russian necks with a .224" expander and then neck turning with a 224" neck turing pilot ,in order to have a lesser effort on doing the job(it partialy works) and when the desired ticknes has nearly got, passing to a .243" expander and making fine neck turning adjustment with the .243" pilot to achive the desired 0,09"thikness.
Have anybody ther encountered the same issues and how did they solved it.
While I thank you for any hint and suggestions I apologize for my "bizzarre" English but I anyway confide in your indulgence and help
Thanks so much for your atention.

FYI you may (also) want to ask on a benchrest forum as well, since 6BR Norma is the more used/discussed type on this site.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Benchrest.com
Accurateshooter.com

^^^^^
Both sites are a wealth of information in regards to Benchrest and proper forming of 220R cases to 6-PPC.

It does sound like you need a larger mandrel.

Make sure the expander that you have is the proper one to match with the neck turning setup.

I know that the expander and turning mandrel for the K&M are actually different diameters and they are designed that way to ensure the necking up process gives a firm but not too tight fit on the turning mandrel.

 

[Govt Mule]

Hello to everybody. I have a unpleasant trouble in neck turning Lapua 220 Russian cases to fit in my new 6PPC .262 custom rifle neck chamber. The issue : When expanded the neck with a 243Sinclair expander I have to force a lot my opened cases into a a Sinclair neck turner pilot in order to reduce the original 0,015" tickness to 0,009" which is the proper size ,circa .261" outside diameter with bullet fitted. Unfortunately the tneck urning work is a real pain despte the Imperial wax lubricant I spread inside the case neck and the pilot.
When I investigated the matter I noted that ,not only either the expander and the pilot have exactly the same dimension, .243" but, probably due the high tickness and relative strong springback of my brasses neck the inside diameter results in a barely .237" that is 0,07" tighter than the .243 " pilot diameter resulting in a very, very pain in fitting and turning the brasses. The solutions might be to get a VERY oversized expander or a very undersized neck turning pilot according with the values exposed. I am not aware,not in Italy at least, of grossly oversized expanders neither grossly undersided pilots available (according with my needs) actually I try to overtake those problems in expanding the 220 Russian necks with a .224" expander and then neck turning with a 224" neck turing pilot ,in order to have a lesser effort on doing the job(it partialy works) and when the desired ticknes has nearly got, passing to a .243" expander and making fine neck turning adjustment with the .243" pilot to achive the desired 0,09"thikness.
Have anybody ther encountered the same issues and how did they solved it.
While I thank you for any hint and suggestions I apologize for my "bizzarre" English but I anyway confide in your indulgence and help
Thanks so much for your atention.

What are you using to turn the necks? Do you have a motorized turner that has the pilot attached, or are you using a hand crank to turn the brass? If you have access to this company: (https://www.pmatool.com/pma-large-caliber-35-50cal-model-a-neck-turning-tool/ ), they have the best tool that I have used. You can also purchase the mandrels and holder that you need from them. It is a big investment up front, but if you are serious about concentric necks this is a great tool.
Cheers

 

[Enrico Togni]

FYI you may (also) want to ask on a benchrest forum as well, since 6BR Norma is the more used/discussed type on this site.

Thanks my friend. I'll check in BR forums too even if I am not using a 6 Norma BR but a 6mm PPC caliber.

 

[Enrico Togni]

What are you using to turn the necks? Do you have a motorized turner that has the pilot attached, or are you using a hand crank to turn the brass? If you have access to this company: (https://www.pmatool.com/pma-large-caliber-35-50cal-model-a-neck-turning-tool/ ), they have the best tool that I have used. You can also purchase the mandrels and holder that you need from them. It is a big investment up front, but if you are serious about concentric necks this is a great tool.
Cheers

Hello. I am using a manual K & M neck turner with handle. Expander is also K & M and the pilot as well They both measure .243" and, as just said the inside diameter of expanded Lapua 220 Russian results in a scarce .236" checked with either a analogic and a digital caliper. I also purchases a set of Sinclair expander and pilot and they also measure .243" both. I tried to turn a couple of cases on a powered drill set at a low/medium speed. Unfortunately, due the small ID I ripped both the necks when the cutter started to touch the mouth of the collets... I definely need a oversized expander.

 

[Enrico Togni]

Benchrest.com
Accurateshooter.com

^^^^^
Both sites are a wealth of information in regards to Benchrest and proper forming of 220R cases to 6-PPC.

It does sound like you need a larger mandrel.

Make sure the expander that you have is the proper one to match with the neck turning setup.

I know that the expander and turning mandrel for the K&M are actually different diameters and they are designed that way to ensure the necking up process gives a firm but not too tight fit on the turning mandrel.

Thanks to you too. I will go to the sites you gave me.

 

[Govt Mule]

Hello. I am using a manual K & M neck turner with handle. Expander is also K & M and the pilot as well They both measure .243" and, as just said the inside diameter of expanded Lapua 220 Russian results in a scarce .236" checked with either a analogic and a digital caliper. I also purchases a set of Sinclair expander and pilot and they also measure .243" both. I tried to turn a couple of cases on a powered drill setat a low/medium speed. Unfortunately, due the small ID I ripped both the necks when the cutter started to touch the mouth of the collets... I definely need a oversized expander.

You might start here: https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/6mmppc/
If you are having trouble with turning the cases, you might want to try method 3 in the article. Also, are you expanding the necks in steps, or going right from .22 caliber to 6mm? You might want to try annealing the necks part through the process as well. Whatever you do, don't mix and match mandrels from different manufacturers to turn the necks. Oversized mandrels are not the answer.
Cheers

 

[Enrico Togni]

You might start here: https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/6mmppc/
If you are having trouble with turning the cases, you might want to try method 3 in the article. Also, are you expanding the necks in steps, or going right from .22 caliber to 6mm? You might want to try annealing the necks part through the process as well. Whatever you do, don't mix and match mandrels from different manufacturers to turn the necks. Oversized mandrels are not the answer.
Cheers

I expand directly with the 6mm/.243" expander, but I also own a 222" expander. Do you think it might worth to step up and getting so a significant larger ID?
Regarding the method 3 of the article I must say that I have just one rifle,a custom one, pretty fresh, furthermore due to stupid and severe Italian regulation is non that easy switching from a worn barrel to a new one, so I am afraid to shoot 22 caliber bullets with my new and sole rifle, the fear to damage it is very high.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I used this to expand the 220 Russian case neck to 6mm. I think it ends up about 0.242".

6mm up from 22cal. Neck Up Mandrel (.242")

The highest quality, most innovative reloading tools and shooting supplies for precision riflemen. Unparalleled customer service. Shop Now - PMA Tool

www.pmatool.com

Then I used this turning arbor with the neck turning tool. Its diameter is 0.241"

S.S. Turning Arbor (S.S. Turning Arbor: 6mm)

21stcenturyinnovation.com

 

[Enrico Togni]

I used this to expand the 220 Russian case neck to 6mm. I think it ends up about 0.242".

6mm up from 22cal. Neck Up Mandrel (.242")

The highest quality, most innovative reloading tools and shooting supplies for precision riflemen. Unparalleled customer service. Shop Now - PMA Tool

www.pmatool.com

Then I used this turning arbor with the neck turning tool. Its diameter is 0.241"

S.S. Turning Arbor (S.S. Turning Arbor: 6mm)

21stcenturyinnovation.com

Thanks, but my problem is that the neck turner pilot I own (.243")is NON tighter than expanded necks, it is FATTER with regard of the .236" ID the expander delivers

 

[Govt Mule]

Thanks, but my problem is that the neck turner pilot I own (.243")is NON tighter than expanded necks, it is FATTER with regard of the .236" ID the expander delivers

Have you tried to seat a bullet in the case after you expand the neck? If that doesn't help, chuck the "pilot" in a drill (preferably one that has minimal runout) and take a thousandth off with wet/dry sandpaper. Try some other lubricant besides what you are using on the inside of the necks.
Cheers

 

[whatsupdoc]

What you can try is take the turning mandrel and put it in a drill with some 400 grit sandpaper and remove
a little material. Also when you push the expander mandrel through the neck do it more than one time
and leave it in the neck for a second or two.

 

[918v]

Thanks, but my problem is that the neck turner pilot I own (.243")is NON tighter than expanded necks, it is FATTER with regard of the .236" ID the expander delivers

How did you measure the ID? With your calipers? That’s a highly inaccurate way of measuring ID of a cylinder.

 

[whatsupdoc]

From what I am understanding from him, he is expanding the case necks and they will not slide over the turning tool mandrel.

 

[918v]

That’s because his expanding mandrel and turning mandrels are the same diameter. The expanding mandrel needs to be bigger to account for springback, especially when necking up from a smaller caliber.

 

[Enrico Togni]

Have you tried to seat a bullet in the case after you expand the neck? If that doesn't help, chuck the "pilot" in a drill (preferably one that has minimal runout) and take a thousandth off with wet/dry sandpaper. Try some other lubricant besides what you are using on the inside of the necks.
Cheers

Thanks allo for that hint. I infact purchased two pilots asking a friend who as a lathe machine and a good skill to reduce for me one of the pilot 3 or 4 thousands of an inch to check is we get a benefit. Offcourse I gave him a couple of new, expanded cases, by my tool in order to see if the fitting with the machined pilot will go toward the right way. I will keep you informed.

 

[Enrico Togni]

I used this to expand the 220 Russian case neck to 6mm. I think it ends up about 0.242".

6mm up from 22cal. Neck Up Mandrel (.242")

The highest quality, most innovative reloading tools and shooting supplies for precision riflemen. Unparalleled customer service. Shop Now - PMA Tool

www.pmatool.com

Then I used this turning arbor with the neck turning tool. Its diameter is 0.241"

S.S. Turning Arbor (S.S. Turning Arbor: 6mm)

21stcenturyinnovation.com

Yes. I got on yesterday that expander in the hope it was the solution, unfortunately it has a smaller diameter than my Sinclair and K & M so it worked even worst. Tryied to order a .244 and .245 from 21st Century but hat give up cause about $50,00 shipping costs out of $25,00 for the Items, plus customs fees and duties.
I will have to seek for a local machinist to make one for me at a fraction of the cost.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Necking up or down in large increments creates a lot of spring back. An intermediate step will help. You may need to anneal when you get .237 and expand again with the same expanding mandrel. My preference is a .0005 interference between the brass and turning mandrel.

 

[Enrico Togni]

Necking up or down in large increments creates a lot of spring back. An intermediate step will help. You may need to anneal when you get .237 and expand again with the same expanding mandrel. My preference is a .0005 interference between the brass and turning mandrel.

Thanks for your opinion, Cascade. First the cases come heath treated already from factory. Second I have neither the setup nor the ability to do the job. So have to choose another path. What do you mean for 0.0005"interference between the brass and the mandrel? The latter must have, perhaps, a smaller diameter of that value lesser than the expanded neck brass?

 

[Enrico Togni]

From what I am understanding from him, he is expanding the case necks and they will not slide over the turning tool mandrel.

Exactly

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Thanks for your opinion, Cascade. First the cases come heath treated already from factory. Second I have neither the setup nor the ability to do the job. So have to choose another path. What do you mean for 0.0005"interference between the brass and the mandrel? The latter must have, perhaps, a smaller diameter of that value lesser than the expanded neck brass?

I prefer the case mouth to be. 0005 smaller than the mandrel because the cut will be more concentric.