I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

[protoolsnerd]

Hi Guys,
I reload for my .308 win. Right now i'm pressing rounds using :

Either : 168 gr SMK or 168 gr Berger VLD

Federal Premium brass ( once fired in my gun )
CCI 250
42 gr of RL-15
COAL 2.800"

For some reason 5 out of 30 of the Bergers get stuck in my gun after closing the bolt . The bolt is incredibly hard to close and then very hard to eject after rotating back up . They fit in my headspace gauge fine and it looks like all the numbers are ok. All cases are at 2.005" . The neck diameters are the same . Almost every measurement that i can take i have and they seem like they should be fine. I'm at a loss. Is it an issue with the base , i have no idea

 

[Equitum]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

The only thing I can come up with right now is that the length to the bullet ogive might differ between the Bergers and the SMKs, so if you're measuring 2.800" off the meplat, the length to ogive will differ between the two different cartridges, so one might work with your chamber and lands and the other will be a tighter fit.

Edit: Either that or your extractor could be on the fritz.

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Thanks Equitum.
What is really confusing is that it's not all the bergers . Hopefully this won't be something that continues .

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Get a dark color felt tip marker and paint the entire case of one that sticks. Chamber it and ligltly close the bolt a few times, them remove it and check for where the marker is scuffed off.

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Will do fuzzball

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Looks like i'm getting friction about .3" up from the base of the brass

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

No other wear marks on the marker marks save for a couple points on the rim of the base of the case , but i expected that form the extractor .

diameter at that point is .470" same as a case that doesn't bind

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

One more bit of info. I pulled the berger bullet out and it still binds, so it's def a case situation not an ogive issue

 

[jcfd2201]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: protoolsnerd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

diameter at that point is .470" same as a case that doesn't bind </div></div>

Same diameter doesn't mean that it is round! Maybe a concentricity issue.

 

[bcrich]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Are those neck size? Or full length sized? It does sound like the chamber might not be concentric.

 

[targaflorio]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Did you size your brass?
Your chamber may be very tight ( is it clean?)
Federal brass is known to be soft.
Cci 250s are magnum primers, is that what you use?
Brass without bullets is hard to eject?
Something strange going on.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Unless you have eliminated the possibility with a measurement, the thing that seems most likely to me is that your necks need to be trimmed to the proper length. Do the rounds look slightly crimped upon extraction? BB

 

[Equitum]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Idk, whenever I hear a fail to extract, I think it's gonna be the extractor or it could possibly be your chamber. I brought up the ogive because you mentioned two different bullets, and that's always a possibility if you're measuring from head to meplat instead of head to ogive.

I'd take a look at your chamber and make sure there's no gunk in there. If there is, clean it out and try again.

If there's not, take some of your once-fired brass and make sure the case is perfectly round (using a concentricity gage, preferably). If you're neck sizing your brass, it's important that the case is concentric from head to neck. Even if you're full sizing, the die will size unevenly from side to side if it's not concentric, and anything that's not uniform in reloading is generally bad. If it's not concentric, and you usually neck size, full size it this one load. That should make it concentric, and usable.
After you fire that batch, check the concentricity of the cases again. If they aren't concentric, the issue is in your chamber.

Also... try chambering some commercial stuff and see if you have the same issue. That might indicate an issue with your chamber sooner than waiting through a FL sized batch of reloads.

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

The brass is all at 2.005"

I resize the necks only at about 3/4 of the neck being resized.

The brass on their own without a bullet being seated are hard to chamber . I've tested my next 120 prepped cases and got about 8 that were hard to chamber in the same way . 3 were very hard to eject. There doesn't seem to be any crimping on the necks at all to insinuate too much length.

I have cci 250s but i'm almost out and then i have cci 200s, not sure how that happened . Do you think the magnum primers have something to do with it ?
I feel like such a moron not realizing that they were magnums. They seem to seat in the primer pocket fine

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

My chamber is clean btw

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Also, no signs of overpressure in fired cases . No primers backing out or bowing that ican see .

I guess it could be a concentricity issue

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Equitum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Idk, whenever I hear a fail to extract, I think it's gonna be the extractor or it could possibly be your chamber. I brought up the ogive because you mentioned two different bullets, and that's always a possibility if you're measuring from head to meplat instead of head to ogive.

I'd take a look at your chamber and make sure there's no gunk in there. If there is, clean it out and try again.

If there's not, take some of your once-fired brass and make sure the case is perfectly round (using a concentricity gage, preferably). If you're neck sizing your brass, it's important that the case is concentric from head to neck. Even if you're full sizing, the die will size unevenly from side to side if it's not concentric, and anything that's not uniform in reloading is generally bad. If it's not concentric, and you usually neck size, full size it this one load. That should make it concentric, and usable.
After you fire that batch, check the concentricity of the cases again. If they aren't concentric, the issue is in your chamber.

Also... try chambering some commercial stuff and see if you have the same issue. That might indicate an issue with your chamber sooner than waiting through a FL sized batch of reloads. </div></div>

I need to get a concentricity gauge , it's one of the last items i need . I've never had a problem chambering any factory ammo at all

 

[Equitum]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: protoolsnerd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need to get a concentricity gauge , it's one of the last items i need . <span style="color: #FF0000">I've never had a problem chambering any factory ammo at all</span> </div></div>

*ding ding ding*
That raised a flag for me. If you've never had this issue with factory fresh ammo, I'm thinking it's probably your chamber if you're using once-fired brass from your gun to reload.
The issue is probably either that your chamber isn't concentric or there is an inconsistency on one side that deforms your brass on one side and makes it hard to chamber on the other side.

I'd either take it to a gunsmith you trust and have him look at it, or really thoroughly inspect it yourself for any inconsistencies and research on issues other people might have similar to yours.

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Equitum</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: protoolsnerd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I need to get a concentricity gauge , it's one of the last items i need . <span style="color: #FF0000">I've never had a problem chambering any factory ammo at all</span> </div></div>

*ding ding ding*
That raised a flag for me. If you've never had this issue with factory fresh ammo, I'm thinking it's probably your chamber if you're using once-fired brass from your gun to reload.
The issue is probably either that your chamber isn't concentric or there is an inconsistency on one side that deforms your brass on one side and makes it hard to chamber on the other side.

I'd either take it to a gunsmith you trust and have him look at it, or really thoroughly inspect it yourself for any inconsistencies and research on issues other people might have similar to yours. </div></div>

Thanks for the heads up, it's that last bit of scrutiny i have yet to get into. I'm going to be getting a new barrel soon and have the entire action accurized. I'll mention it to my gunsmith

 

[boltgunluvr]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Any issues with FL sized brass? How many reloads with N sizing? Is it simply time to FL again?

 

[Equitum]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

How soon are you getting that new barrel? I wouldn't bother having him looking at the chamber until you get a new barrel, and you can get the chamber checked out before he matches the riflings on the chamber and barrel. The worst thing that could happen is that you would need a new action that would need to be matched to the new barrel anyways.

 

[B3dlam]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

+1 on what boltgunluvr said.

Try full length sizing a few of your problem cases and see if that solves the problem for you.

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

All the brass i'm reloading right now is only once fired factory federal premium 168 gr smk .

I tried FL sizing some of the cases that were binding and , although they were slightly easier to chamber , they were still not right , and much harder to chamber then factory , or even the majority of the other cases i'm prepping.

As just neck sizing goes , these were their first neck sizing or sizing of any kind. I wouldn't think they'd need FL sizing so soon.

I'm thinking it's a concentricity issue as was suggested above.

As getting the new barrel i'm hoping to get it sometime in the fall . So a couple months i hope. I want to start shooting my .308 out to 1000 yards and my stock rem barrel with the 1 in 12 twist won't stabilize the heavier bullets i'm looking to load . I'm torn between krieger or pac nor .

 

[Gunfighting Inc]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

I had this same issue once. Turns out when I resized my cases my die was backed out a tad. Dang things were hard to chamber, but factory rounds were fine. I solved the problem with a Redding body die and bumped the shoulders of the loaded rounds back. I just turned the die in a 1/4 turn at a time until the rounds chambered correctly.

Good Luck.

 

[Equitum]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

I would suggest, to start, to just seat to a slightly shorter OAL, while you are waiting for your barrel.

The 1:12 twist will work fine for any weight up to around 190. Plenty to get you to 1k. 175 SMKs or 178 AMAXes seem to be popular, and they do the trick very will.
If you want to go to 1k DO NOT USE 168s!! They really peter out at 900-940 yards and start flitting with subsonic without a really hot load.

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Equitum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would suggest, to start, to just seat to a slightly shorter OAL, while you are waiting for your barrel.

The 1:12 twist will work fine for any weight up to around 190. Plenty to get you to 1k. 175 SMKs or 178 AMAXes seem to be popular, and they do the trick very will.
If you want to go to 1k DO NOT USE 168s!! They really peter out at 900-940 yards and start flitting with subsonic without a really hot load.

</div></div>

Thanks very much for the info. I had done a bit of reading suggestion 1 in 10 twist rates for the heavier 178. 185 gr kinda bullets. I'm a huge fan of the berger vld in 185gr . Also i'd like to make my gun more accurate as well. But it's nice to know that if i can't afford the barrel i'll be able to shoot out that far anyway

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reinman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had this same issue once. Turns out when I resized my cases my die was backed out a tad. Dang things were hard to chamber, but factory rounds were fine. I solved the problem with a Redding body die and bumped the shoulders of the loaded rounds back. I just turned the die in a 1/4 turn at a time until the rounds chambered correctly.

Good Luck. </div></div>

Thanks Reinman , i used my redding body die to resize one of them and it helped but didn't eliminate the issue . Am i correct to put the ram all the way up on my press screw the die in until it touches then back off a 1/4 turn? Basically how i do all my dies unless expressed differently by the manufacturer .

 

[xray9]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

I know it might seem unusual, but I have the same situation in a 30BR with brass formed from 6BR Lapua case......one of the BR gents suggested primer seating depth might be the culprit, so I bought a K&M seating tool with dial gauge (Bruno's) waiting to see if that works. xray9

 

[Equitum]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: protoolsnerd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks very much for the info. I had done a bit of reading suggestion 1 in 10 twist rates for the heavier 178. 185 gr kinda bullets. I'm a huge fan of the berger vld in 185gr . Also i'd like to make my gun more accurate as well. But it's nice to know that if i can't afford the barrel i'll be able to shoot out that far anyway </div></div>

Actually, 1:11.25 or 1:11 are really popular for the 175-178gr range, and are purportedly ideal for that bullet weight. I believe that either or those twist rates would also work very well for 185gr. I wouldn't go 1:10, personally, unless I were going up to 200gr+ in a true F-Class or ELR .308 type build, since the 1:11 or 1:11.25 work so well for the 175 SMK/178 AMAX, which are probably your most popular contenders for getting a .308 to 1k, along with the 155 Scenar/SMK and the 208 AMAX/210 VLD.

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Thanks very much . I'll def look into it . I'm not against any twist rate faster then my 1 in 12 . I'd prob be more apt to load the 175-190 gr bullets . Not so much over that

 

[B3dlam]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Another Option to look at is the Berger VLDs it is a 168 gr bullet that in the load I have for it which I push out at just under 2700 FPS stays supersonic to 1200 yards with around 34.9 MOA of drop from my 100 yard zero. So there are some great loads even with the lighter bullets to get you to 1000 the vlds for instances recommend a 1:13 or faster barrel so your 1:12 would be fine.

 

[former naval person]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

If you are neck sizing with a full length sizing die, you are also partially sizing the rest of the case, which will lengthen it. If you try to chamber an unsized case (just fired factory) does it chamber OK? If so, it is probably your procedure of partial neck sizing with the FL die that is the culprit. If you have the body die, bump the neck back with it...screw it in and back off like you are doing, then size away, screwing it in a 1/8th turn at a time and trying it in the chamber after each sizing. When it chambers easily, lock it there and try another couple of cases. I bet that will work. If you want to neck size only, get a Lee collet die. JMHO

 

[Gene Poole]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

To check for concentricity issues, try taking one of your hard-to-seat rounds and marking it with a sharpie at 1/4 turn increments (0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees) and put it in your magazine starting with the 0 degrees mark showing through the bolt opening. Chamber it and note the amount of resistance. Then place it at 90 degrees, etc. and if the force changes at different positions, it probably is a concentricity issue.

 

[targaflorio]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

I think its all about headspace. I recommend the rcbs precision Mic until then, screw the sizing die down a little at a time and see if they don't chamber fine.

 

[BK7saum]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

+1 with former naval person.

Keep screwing the die in about 1/8 turn, size and check for ease of chambering. You are not sizing the case far enough. If you want to neck size, get a neck sizing die. You are most likely partially sizing the case which is causing you chambering/extraction problems.

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are neck sizing with a full length sizing die, you are also partially sizing the rest of the case, which will lengthen it. If you try to chamber an unsized case (just fired factory) does it chamber OK? If so, it is probably your procedure of partial neck sizing with the FL die that is the culprit. If you have the body die, bump the neck back with it...screw it in and back off like you are doing, then size away, screwing it in a 1/8th turn at a time and trying it in the chamber after each sizing. When it chambers easily, lock it there and try another couple of cases. I bet that will work. If you want to neck size only, get a Lee collet die. JMHO </div></div>

I'm actually resizing with a redding competition bushing neck die . So No worries on that , not using the FL die for the neck only. I used their supplied FL die on one of the tougher cases to see if it fixed the problem after , and it improved it but didn't eliminate it.

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gene Poole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To check for concentricity issues, try taking one of your hard-to-seat rounds and marking it with a sharpie at 1/4 turn increments (0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees) and put it in your magazine starting with the 0 degrees mark showing through the bolt opening. Chamber it and note the amount of resistance. Then place it at 90 degrees, etc. and if the force changes at different positions, it probably is a concentricity issue. </div></div>

Thanks i'll check that out as well

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: B3dlam</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another Option to look at is the Berger VLDs it is a 168 gr bullet that in the load I have for it which I push out at just under 2700 FPS stays supersonic to 1200 yards with around 34.9 MOA of drop from my 100 yard zero. So there are some great loads even with the lighter bullets to get you to 1000 the vlds for instances recommend a 1:13 or faster barrel so your 1:12 would be fine. </div></div>

That's the projectile i'm loading right now actually . what's your recipe?

 

[seanhagerty]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: protoolsnerd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks Reinman , i used my redding body die to resize one of them and it helped but didn't eliminate the issue . <span style="font-weight: bold">Am i correct to put the ram all the way up on my press screw the die in until it touches then back off a 1/4 turn?</span> Basically how i do all my dies unless expressed differently by the manufacturer . </div></div>

There lies the problem. to adjust the die, Screw die in until it touches the case holder at top of stroke, then lower ram and screw it in another 1/8 to 1/4 turn.

Try this and see if your chambering issue goes away.

 

[markc.mcconnell]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Thats what I was thinking as well. The die should be screwed in 1/4 turn after the ram meets the shell holder.

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean Hagerty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: protoolsnerd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks Reinman , i used my redding body die to resize one of them and it helped but didn't eliminate the issue . <span style="font-weight: bold">Am i correct to put the ram all the way up on my press screw the die in until it touches then back off a 1/4 turn?</span> Basically how i do all my dies unless expressed differently by the manufacturer . </div></div>

There lies the problem. to adjust the die, Screw die in until it touches the case holder at top of stroke, then lower ram and screw it in another 1/8 to 1/4 turn.

Try this and see if your chambering issue goes away. </div></div>

For which ? both the body die and the neck die?

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For which ? both the body die and the neck die?</div></div>

I'm starting to get the drift.....

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

that drift would be?

 

[Country]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

No the best way to adjust the body die is turn it down a bit at a time until the bolt just closes on the sized case with some slight resistance then turn it down 1/8 of a turn more and lock it . That should result it an easy fit with close headspace.
Your chamber in your gun is the best gauge on how well a sized case fits so use it to set the die.

 

[seanhagerty]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

The body die should be what is causing your chambering issues. I would agree with what Country just said. Turn the body die in until the brass will chamber easily, then turn it in another 1/8th turn and lock it in.

I have found in life most of our problems are the easy solutions. I know occasionally, we will have to dig for the solution, but always try the easy stuff first. Invariably, folks always assume problems are the "tough to find" problems, but dont over look the easy fixes first!!

 

[judgedelta]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

Occam's razor... the simplest explanation is the best, when it works...

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

What I'm thinking, (no disrespect, just calling a spade a spade) after reviewing everything the OP has written, including non related stuff, is that the whole issue seems to indicate that he doesn't understand how to set up a full length die or a bushing die. This is a first attempt at resizing factory ammunition, correct?

It looks like you may have a slightly oversize chamber and these once fired cases "require" resizing to nominal factory specs., and that is not being done correctly.

This is the essence of "resizing" a fired case, and some of the statements appear to be a little unclear; mention of neck sizing, bushing dies and full length partial sizing.

My opinion: Proper adjustment of, and resizing in a full length die should/will eliminate this problem.

One item. A concentricity gauge is useful when diagnosing an accuracy problem with a seating die. For chambering problems, this is a solution based in outer space, 99.9% of the time, in my humble opinion. BB

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean Hagerty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The body die should be what is causing your chambering issues. I would agree with what Country just said. Turn the body die in until the brass will chamber easily, then turn it in another 1/8th turn and lock it in.

I have found in life most of our problems are the easy solutions. I know occasionally, we will have to dig for the solution, but always try the easy stuff first. Invariably, folks always assume problems are the "tough to find" problems, but dont over look the easy fixes first!! </div></div>

I couldn't agree more ....seeing the forrest through the trees

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

What I'm thinking, (no disrespect, just calling a spade a spade) after reviewing everything the OP has written, including non related stuff, is that the whole issue seems to indicate that he doesn't understand how to set up a full length die or a bushing die. This is a first attempt at resizing factory ammunition, correct?

It looks like you may have a slightly oversize chamber and these once fired cases "require" resizing to nominal factory specs., and that is not being done correctly.


I appreciate your candor . I'm sorry that some of this info has come in drips and drabs .

I was never using the FL die to resize the neck. I have a redding body die for that and i was mixing and matching the terminology . I indexed the neck die as they specified and i'm very happy with the job it was doing .

The only thing i've learned , apart from needing a concentricity gauge , which i realized , is that i wasn't using the body die correctly . I was under the impression that having the ram hit the body of the die was a bad thing so you should back it out just a tiny bit to avoid this . Seems that is not necessarily the way to use it . I'm not slamming my cases either so i'm not worried about breaking anything , but i was just uninformed .


When i have time tonight i'm going to see if i can adjust my body die down to accommodate for the oversized once fired case. I was just surprised because 90% of the once fired cases don't require this . I had expected to have to FL resize my cases , but not only after once firing .

 

[protoolsnerd]

Re: I've got a bit of a noodle scratcher here .... 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: judgedelta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Occam's razor... the simplest explanation is the best, when it works... </div></div>

agreed