If someone does or says something in public, and it is told by someone else and was found to be truthful,,,,,,,why does anyone owe that person anything?
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Jessie Ventura In court suing Chris Kyle's family
- Thread starter Niles Coyote
- Start date
Well if you don't like JV you can always sign the petition.
Petition to UDT-SEAL Association:
We, the undersigned, do hereby respectfully petition the UDT-SEAL Association to remove James George Janos, aka Jesse Ventura, from the Association’s membership.
This petition is brought forth as a result of the dishonorable actions set forth in the lawsuit perpetuated by Janos, against Taya Kyle, executrix for the estate of Christopher Kyle, deceased. We consider the continued pursuit of this lawsuit to be a display of great dishonor, and Janos’ purpose of stalking said widow to be only for media attention and profit.
As brothers within the Navy SEAL community, our ethos is to support, defend and protect each other on the battlefield, and here at home. Janos' actions are in direct contradiction of our community motto, ethos, and lacks integrity. Therefore, by his own actions in targeting the family, estate and future of the Kyle family, he has demonstrated his distaste for our beloved SEAL Community.
If Janos had any honor, following the murder of Chris Kyle, he would have dropped his suit. Ventura has been provided plenty of platform’s in which to share his side of the story. However, this is no longer a feud between two brothers; this is now an attack on the Widow and children of a slain Navy SEAL. Taya Kyle’s attorney, John Borger, summated this; “Continuing this action will serve no useful purpose and likely will promote public perception of Jesse Ventura as someone who has little or no regard for the feelings and welfare of surviving members of deceased war heroes.
” (Star Tribune, 30 May 2013) http://www.startribune.com/local/209539341.html"
It would be a dishonor for the Navy SEAL Community to be associated with this, or any individual who targets one of our own. Chris Kyle was an exceptional Navy SEAL who utilized his skills and prowess on the battlefield to ensure the safety of not only Navy SEAL lives, but those of many of our brothers and sisters in arms.
Chris is no longer among us and cannot protect his family, his beloved wife and children. It is therefore, upon us to take action and stand up for Chris’ family. All of us who knew Chris had the confidence that he would stand by you no matter what. If you went down, he would get you out, or go down with you, but he would never abandon you. Being able to trust your brother at this level is a comforting thought in the realm of the battlefield.
For many, Chris Kyle is a hero because of his prowess as a Navy SEAL operator, and the number of enemies he eliminated from the battlefield. However, within the Brotherhood he will always be remembered as a Guardian Angel watching over us as we patrolled/moved through dangerous land. He was the Guardian ready to remove the enemy threat before the enemy could reach us. Many of us came back home to our wives, children, and families only because of Chris’ actions on the battlefield.
Chris’ family has found itself under a vicious, unconscionable attack by Janos, aka Ventura, who claims to be a part of our community. It was always an unwritten understanding and the confidence among us that if something happened to one of us, the other teammates would help protect and safeguard our families.
It is our moral obligation and our duty as fellow SEALs to step in and protect Chris Kyle’s family, and to honor Chris Kyle’s legacy. We must now stand strong as the protectors of his family and demand accountability for Janos’, aka Ventura’s, actions if he chooses to continue in his relentless attack on Chris’ family.
** Upon review of this petition, if it meets your approval and you would like your name added, please send an email to [email protected], stating your approval and request your name be added. Please include your full name, rank, BUDs Class number, and if you are still Active Duty. The petition will be sent in its entirety to the Association; however, Active Duty names will not be posted publicly. You are also encouraged to reply with awards/decorations you would like included. All military members and all civilians are invited and encouraged to show that you stand with us and with Chris Kyle’s family by adding your name to the petition. The roster will be updated weekly.
Maritime Tactical Security - Services
Petition to UDT-SEAL Association:
We, the undersigned, do hereby respectfully petition the UDT-SEAL Association to remove James George Janos, aka Jesse Ventura, from the Association’s membership.
This petition is brought forth as a result of the dishonorable actions set forth in the lawsuit perpetuated by Janos, against Taya Kyle, executrix for the estate of Christopher Kyle, deceased. We consider the continued pursuit of this lawsuit to be a display of great dishonor, and Janos’ purpose of stalking said widow to be only for media attention and profit.
As brothers within the Navy SEAL community, our ethos is to support, defend and protect each other on the battlefield, and here at home. Janos' actions are in direct contradiction of our community motto, ethos, and lacks integrity. Therefore, by his own actions in targeting the family, estate and future of the Kyle family, he has demonstrated his distaste for our beloved SEAL Community.
If Janos had any honor, following the murder of Chris Kyle, he would have dropped his suit. Ventura has been provided plenty of platform’s in which to share his side of the story. However, this is no longer a feud between two brothers; this is now an attack on the Widow and children of a slain Navy SEAL. Taya Kyle’s attorney, John Borger, summated this; “Continuing this action will serve no useful purpose and likely will promote public perception of Jesse Ventura as someone who has little or no regard for the feelings and welfare of surviving members of deceased war heroes.
” (Star Tribune, 30 May 2013) http://www.startribune.com/local/209539341.html"
It would be a dishonor for the Navy SEAL Community to be associated with this, or any individual who targets one of our own. Chris Kyle was an exceptional Navy SEAL who utilized his skills and prowess on the battlefield to ensure the safety of not only Navy SEAL lives, but those of many of our brothers and sisters in arms.
Chris is no longer among us and cannot protect his family, his beloved wife and children. It is therefore, upon us to take action and stand up for Chris’ family. All of us who knew Chris had the confidence that he would stand by you no matter what. If you went down, he would get you out, or go down with you, but he would never abandon you. Being able to trust your brother at this level is a comforting thought in the realm of the battlefield.
For many, Chris Kyle is a hero because of his prowess as a Navy SEAL operator, and the number of enemies he eliminated from the battlefield. However, within the Brotherhood he will always be remembered as a Guardian Angel watching over us as we patrolled/moved through dangerous land. He was the Guardian ready to remove the enemy threat before the enemy could reach us. Many of us came back home to our wives, children, and families only because of Chris’ actions on the battlefield.
Chris’ family has found itself under a vicious, unconscionable attack by Janos, aka Ventura, who claims to be a part of our community. It was always an unwritten understanding and the confidence among us that if something happened to one of us, the other teammates would help protect and safeguard our families.
It is our moral obligation and our duty as fellow SEALs to step in and protect Chris Kyle’s family, and to honor Chris Kyle’s legacy. We must now stand strong as the protectors of his family and demand accountability for Janos’, aka Ventura’s, actions if he chooses to continue in his relentless attack on Chris’ family.
** Upon review of this petition, if it meets your approval and you would like your name added, please send an email to [email protected], stating your approval and request your name be added. Please include your full name, rank, BUDs Class number, and if you are still Active Duty. The petition will be sent in its entirety to the Association; however, Active Duty names will not be posted publicly. You are also encouraged to reply with awards/decorations you would like included. All military members and all civilians are invited and encouraged to show that you stand with us and with Chris Kyle’s family by adding your name to the petition. The roster will be updated weekly.
Maritime Tactical Security - Services
Agree totally. I remember reading that passage in the book and figured it must be some sort of inside joke that only other Seals would get. Had no idea who he was talking about.
I don't think what was published in the book was the issue. Surely the editors and publisher helped him come up with the "Scruff Face" pseudonym to keep them all out of trouble. The problems came during the promotional interviews where he was goaded into saying or admitting it was Ventura he was referring to. I saw a clip on FOX News this morning where Bill O'Riley kept badgering him until he agreed it was Ventura. Let's face it, Kyle was not a savvy interviewee. The book thrust him onto the national stage for the first time ever in his life and he acted as most of us would have. In hindsight, the better play would have been to act coy, smile, admit nothing and let people draw their own conclusions vs admitting it was Ventura.
Also agree that while Jesse might have been victorious in legal court, he's definitely a villain in the court of public opinion. He could probably care less.
This is the first I heard of this, so I did some searching but have not been able to locate anything but 3rd hand “he said that he said” reporting/blog posts...Got a link to a firsthand report that can be vetted...
otherwise it may be like watching a fight at a bar while partaking in adult beverages and later testifying to what you watched only to have the jury not believe you because you were intoxicated...
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That's the problem, there is not a "first hand report" because it never happened. When those close to the source described the story, CK never came forth to deny he had made these claims. Here is one such account that direct quotes him and if it never happened why do Luttrell (team guy) and Mooney claim that CK made these claims:
Here?s What American Sniper Chris Kyle Said About His Killing Two Men at a Gas Station in 2009 | FrontBurner | D Magazine
Here?s What American Sniper Chris Kyle Said About His Killing Two Men at a Gas Station in 2009 | FrontBurner | D Magazine
Chris Kyle the soldier was awesome. I would never utter a bad word about him. Chris Kyle the author and the celebrity is questionable at best. His book sucked in comparison to "Marine Sniper". The story of Carlos Hitchcock. Every time I saw him on tv he seemed very full of himself. If he lied about hitting Jessie the body in the mouth while on the Bill O'Reilly show then Jessie has a right to defend himself and bring that to light. And right or wrong this isn't costing his wife and kids a dime. The publishing company has insurance for this sort of thing.
Just down the street (A1A). What the fuck do I know?
Some things you don't air in public. You keep it "in house".
Some people just love to see themselves "on air".
A pox on them.
Some things you don't air in public. You keep it "in house".
Some people just love to see themselves "on air".
A pox on them.
Because in this country, if that "truthful" statement said or written by another person damages another persons reputation it is called either slander or libel. Defamation, to be exact. if it is even true. Many times though, lawsuits are won because whatever statement that was said or written was found to also be untrue.
Can our justice system fuck up. Yes, it sure can. But it's the only one we have, and I think it does a damn good job most of the time.
Too many internet tough guys around here just jumping on the wagon because this is a website dedicated to shooters and Kyle was a great shooter.
Don't mix up because a man is great at his job that he's great at life.
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I went to Chief Kyle's memorial sevice in Class A uniform and sat on the field. Anyone that was there and watched it on TV saw one of Chris's best friends speak at the funeral. That was Bo a very good friend of mine. Bo and Chris went to grade school together all the way up to Tarelton State. In 2006 Bo and his wife were having a birthday party for one of their children and my wife and I attended. Chris and Taya were also there. Everyone knew he was a SEAL and he was home on leave. None of us ever knew he was a Sniper until he ended his Navy carreer and the book was published. So to say that he liked to brag may not be entirely true. Sure he had personal security to worrry about while he was still a SEAL and not broadcasting that he was a Sniper, makes sense. I don't know the SOG's of the SEAL Sniper community, but could they or could they not tell friends and family their MOS?
Just food for thought.
Just food for thought.
it has to suck being owned by Jesse Ventura. This is what happens when you write a book of lies
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/bear-pit/238579-eddieg1979-aka-tactical-rifles-shooter.html Makes you wonder
What Kyle did is the same as this
What Kyle did is the same as this
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Er... Carlos Hitchcock? I hope you mean Carlos Hathcock??? Carlos Hitchcock is the pseudonym given to 'some other' Marine S/S in Stephen Hunter's books. And, yes, Marine Sniper is worth reading.
Cheers,
Sirhr
P.S. Kyle was, technically, a United States Navy sailor... But we'll let that slide... ;-)
To the guy looking to make a donation to the family; Go to mercuryone.com - you can also find it on theblaze.com courtesy of Glenn Beck.
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Cris Kyle is the biggest poser ever. And there is still asshats defending him. His book has been proven to be a book of lies. But because he is dead people think he is a god. I have seen several threads on here exposing fake soldiers. Most of them say beat the shit out of the fake. A fake is what Kyle was. His legacy will be as a fake
The moron also is a 9/11 Truther and advocate of every anti-government conspiracy theory you can name.
I was stationed at Cornado (USNAB) for a couple tours during my career, and spent some wages at McP's.
I never heard of any of this 'defamation' of JV until this court case got daylight.
Seems to me JV has done more to defame himself than anyone else could have (or not?).
From a distance it looks like a bad mix of ego and greed.
I never heard of any of this 'defamation' of JV until this court case got daylight.
Seems to me JV has done more to defame himself than anyone else could have (or not?).
From a distance it looks like a bad mix of ego and greed.
The video is at the end of the article. This is hilarious.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...schs-inimitable-interview-with-jesse-ventura/
Posted via Tapatalk HD for iPad
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...schs-inimitable-interview-with-jesse-ventura/
Posted via Tapatalk HD for iPad
Seriously??? Even if the assault was fabricated... We know CK was a SEAL and a SEAL trained sniper who died giving back to vets.
Remember there are at least three sides to every story or in this case at least 14... 11 that convinced two jurors that it happened. But who knows maybe all of them were suffering from a little hero worship.
JV is a liar (caught in another one this week already) and entertainer specializing in truth twisting and fact ignoring to suit the needs for network entertainment and a paycheck.
Yes please do...
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I don't know there were so many dumbasses in this place...Kyle was a fine American, a fine seal, and a great shot who took out many bad guys and saved countless lives. He was also a dumbass who made some money and wasn't smart enough to stay out of bar fights, and to top it all off the guy he "punched" was 65 years old or so. He tarnished himself.
The man has what 160 confirmed kills in combat with another 255 probables??? Why on G-D's green earth would the "book require embellishment"????
The takeaway from this thread is....don't be a liar. It destroys everything around you eventually, even incredible an reputation that took a lifetime to build. Even worse, others especially those we love often have to pay the price for those lies which seem so harmless at first. Don't do it!
I'm just saddened by this whole fight. Ventura sued because his reputation was damaged. Damaged by what Chris Kyle put in a book. Which, was proven in court, cost Jesse money. It was not whether or not he was punched in the face. This is what really saddens me. He didn't have to include that. Many of us have gotten pissed off and/or drunk and swapped a few blows with our brothers-in-arms. I have, but I damn sure never went public with it. I've known some pretty incredible legends in my military career. And some of them I didn't like. Some of them smoked me and even kicked my ass. But, I'd never go on the record as dissing them. And they have not done that to me.
For as much as I thought of Chris Kyle, and it is a lot, I really wish he hadn't gone down the road of tearing down another servicemans record. A record that Ventura did have, not a fake. It's like some of the guys who had stellar careers coming back on me and saying what a piece of crap I was. I was average, I'll admit it. But, I was there.
And FWIW, while Jesse is no doubt a loud mouth, it wasn't just the press after him. The "politics as usual" people in Minnesota initiated most of it. A state that prides itself on being the "welfare destination of the U.S." After his tenure as Governor, we were definitely let known that we shouldn't ever elect someone outside the establishment again. I've had enough of that state and it's crappy politics so I moved.
So, while I don't follow the show-biz part of Jesse's career, I did follow the political side. He was a far better Governor than he'll ever get credit for. Chris Kyle was an outstanding warrior who didn't deserve to die like he did. I wish for his family he was still with them. Sometimes, you gotta back off and not let your ego ride you over the edge. I won't think less of him. I will think he was as human as any of us, and I would have loved to have shook his hand and talked with him.
My lesson from this is, if you ever feel frustrated by another man talking of his service record, don't be the one going on record defying him. Be the one to say "It's time to stop that kind of talk".
For as much as I thought of Chris Kyle, and it is a lot, I really wish he hadn't gone down the road of tearing down another servicemans record. A record that Ventura did have, not a fake. It's like some of the guys who had stellar careers coming back on me and saying what a piece of crap I was. I was average, I'll admit it. But, I was there.
And FWIW, while Jesse is no doubt a loud mouth, it wasn't just the press after him. The "politics as usual" people in Minnesota initiated most of it. A state that prides itself on being the "welfare destination of the U.S." After his tenure as Governor, we were definitely let known that we shouldn't ever elect someone outside the establishment again. I've had enough of that state and it's crappy politics so I moved.
So, while I don't follow the show-biz part of Jesse's career, I did follow the political side. He was a far better Governor than he'll ever get credit for. Chris Kyle was an outstanding warrior who didn't deserve to die like he did. I wish for his family he was still with them. Sometimes, you gotta back off and not let your ego ride you over the edge. I won't think less of him. I will think he was as human as any of us, and I would have loved to have shook his hand and talked with him.
My lesson from this is, if you ever feel frustrated by another man talking of his service record, don't be the one going on record defying him. Be the one to say "It's time to stop that kind of talk".
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My ASS is ready Kyle has been proved to be a lier . If you still what to defend a guy that wrote a book of lies . Get after it. It has been proven in court that Kyle is a lier . I don't care if he killed 100000 people that were againgst the USA. Kyle will go down in history as a FRAUD
Funny thing is his wife knew it she should have settled out of court. At least that would have saved his name. She push the issue now it is pubic record. I suggest all of you read the transcrips. KYLE LIED IN HIS BOOK
Hey buddy you need to watch your mouth. WTF have you done that makes you such an authority to judge someone else`s actions?
For the record, the jury and the court did not set out to see whether the fight actually occurred or not; theres plenty of witnesses saying they saw the fight. The matter at hand was whether his reputation was damaged.
Jesus man let it go, I promise you would not want to say what youve been posting to a group of SEALs in person.
Otherwise, RIP and thank you for your service, to all those who have been down range and to the lost.
This is incorrect, Ventura's assertion was that he never said SEAL's deserved to lose a few among other things and ultimately, as he put it, committed treason. As part of his case, he claimed the incident as whole didn't happen. The amount is linked to the damage he has suffered to his reputation as result of the lie (once proven). There was no case on whether or not his rep took a ding.
If Kyle lied, then what Ventura's done is acceptable. According to him they tried to settle out of court without retracting the incident or claiming it as false, Kyle wouldn't and neither would his estate.
A great fighter is dead and he died not at the hands of the enemy but by the hands of a mentally deranged vet. That's as bad as it gets. The rest is just details that I suspect will be long forgotten while Kyle's legacy remains. If he indeed lied, big fucking deal. No-one ever said the man was a saint and a paragon of virtue and there's noone like that on Earth so why hold him to that pointless standard?
If I'd shagged all the girls I've claimed to then there'd be a whole more better looking set of youngsters around...
Fair enough. I still think nesikabay has no right to try and take some type of moral high ground and claim Kyle`s entire life was a lie.
Agreed. While I don't like what was put in the book, he has enumerable credentials to validate his service record. And that, I AM impressed with.
For those of you on the Jesse side (or just anti-Chris) or vice versa, tearing down one or the other really in essence tears all of us down who did serve. I may have stated in past posts, that while "cooks and supply people" didn't go on the mission, I remember a lot of times a hot meal coming back from them. How thankful for that I was. I don't remember a shortage of bullets, or pretty much "anything we 'needed'". It takes 90% of the military to make happen what happens before the 10% who do battle, can do battle. Not that heroics and hard work and just plain awesomeness in general aren't needed, none of those things would happen if the 90% of the rest of our military wasn't doing their jobs. You need to appreciate everyone for what they've done in our services. Ripping on records hurts us all.
That said, I can honestly say I've crossed that line and many times I wish I could step back from it. I can only apologize to those who I've transgressed against, and hope that it is water under the bridge. A BS story that got out of hand and I needed to put a stop to it then, there, and take responsibility. In my case, proceeds from a best-selling book were not at stake. But, the relationships with those I value was. The relationships have been hurt, but we can move forward because when it started to spiral, I came back and clarified the truth. And my culpability. The point is, you take sides on this you go down a road you can't come back from. Let those decide in public who are tasked with deciding it. In your mind, if you were there, you will know the truth. The best thing is to stay out of the middle of it.
The truth is a victim more often than we would ever like to hear.
From Nesicabay "My ASS is ready Kyle has been proved to be a lier . If you still what to defend a guy that wrote a book of lies . Get after it. It has been proven in court that Kyle is a lier . I don't care if he killed 100000 people that were againgst the USA. Kyle will go down in history as a FRAUD."
You should have enough respect for CK to give credit where it was / is due. At the very least, respect the fact that he saved a lot of U.S. Marines' & Soldiers' lives. You don't have to be a fan-boy, etc. of CK, but at the very minimum you should show him some degree of respect. Did you know the man personally? Are you jealous? I ask this because you sound ridiculous. I don't normally talk down at people, but after some of the stupid shit you've said I'll throw my .02 in the hat. You appear to be a dumbass. Firstly, you would do well to use spell check. Secondly, proof read your sentences for syntax, grammar, and spelling.
Something to consider; if CK will go down as a fraud, what will you go down as?
You should have enough respect for CK to give credit where it was / is due. At the very least, respect the fact that he saved a lot of U.S. Marines' & Soldiers' lives. You don't have to be a fan-boy, etc. of CK, but at the very minimum you should show him some degree of respect. Did you know the man personally? Are you jealous? I ask this because you sound ridiculous. I don't normally talk down at people, but after some of the stupid shit you've said I'll throw my .02 in the hat. You appear to be a dumbass. Firstly, you would do well to use spell check. Secondly, proof read your sentences for syntax, grammar, and spelling.
Something to consider; if CK will go down as a fraud, what will you go down as?
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That's a helluva moving read. Whatever anyone's opinions are, at this point, about JV (and I have mine...) it's a moving testament to guys who gave their all.
Thanks for posting 100meter... Best thing I've read in a while.
In great respect,
Sirhr
That is a very interesting link, and if true it is one of the first times I have seen Graham shown to be incorrect as a matter of fact. The way Jessy is portrayed in your link closely matches my opinion of him. I would just like to see the author Bill Salisbury vetted a little but to make sure he is who he says he is.
Well, you are speaking out of ignorance. A jury is MOST times not allowed to know ALL of the facts in a court case. The reasons are that information must be judged first by one person (the "judge") to be admissible. Then, and only then, can it come to light in a court room. Court rooms are not based in reality. They are based on perception. The jury instructions go to clear all prior assumptions of the parties and to try and look at the case with fresh eyes. This, while an attempt to be altruistic, still falls short.
Since the juries are not given all of the facts, including Chris Kyle's testimony mind you, they cannot come to perfect decisions.
Do not confuse what is proven in court as to what is proven in reality.
Since you allege so much, I will allow you to prove it. I challenge you to provide any evidence that Chris Kyle's book is fabricated. We are all ears and willing to listen.
The instructions given to the jury in this case included that they could not take into account if the fight between the two actually took place or not. Sounds crazy? That is the way it works. ....NevadaZielmeisters synopsis is correct.
If Chris Kyle had gone to court against Jesse Ventura in an assault case. Kyle would have put forth witnesses that the fight actually did occur but none of that would have mattered in JV's civil case. Crazy.
Diverdon: I don't think Graham is wrong... but there is a fine line. And the whole question of UDT vs. SEAL may benefit from some historical perspective.
Apologize in advance for any errors here, because the books I am going to cite (Herbert Best "The Webfoot Warriors" c. 1962 and Richard Marcinko "Rogue Warrior" c, 1991 are not at hand. So going from memory here... And I have not read Marcinko for 15 years... but just finished Best a few months ago.
The Seals lineage goes back to the Navy Combat Demolition Teams (NCDT). They were land-based demolitions specialists who, essentially, walked onto shore with an invasion force and would clear obstacles, mines, etc. They were not equipped to 'swim.' In fact, they waded ashore wearing firefighters coveralls and Kapok lifejackets!
After Tarawa, the Navy saw a need to create teams that could swim into an objective and work on land to clear obstacles but, more importantly, which could operate underwater. These new sailors had to be able to operate in a hostile environment and they had to be covert (lest they tip off a defending force.) And while they were tasked with demolitions of obstacles immediately before or during an invasion, their most important role was hydrographic reconnaissance which included mapping shorelines, charting reefs, marking locations of obstacles and mines to ensure that the invasion force was not facing geographically-impossible landing areas or insurmountable defensive positions.
Appointed during WW2 to transition the NCDU's to this new kind of unit, Underwater Demolition Teams (UDT's), was a young officer named Draper Kaufman. He was not a swimmer or a frogman... he was an explosives expert. But he expanded the early NCDU training facilities at Ft. Pierce in Florida and set up the original UDT program, recruiting new candidates from across the Navy and Marine Corps. Kaufman also faced a challenge... training a relatively large number of UDT sailors in just weeks. By comparison, Easy Company 101st... spent some 19 months in solid intensive training to achieve their level of fitness and excellence -- Ambrose "Band of Brothers"). Kaufman had to find the absolute fittest, mentally-prepared, never-quit men and train them in time for the next island hop(s) in the Pacific. He had a few weeks where other units had months/years to prepare. So he had to compress months of 'elite' training into the shortest timetable possible. He did this in a course that became Basic Underwater Demolition training... and to separate out people quickly, a 'weed out week' which was originally called "So Solly" week, was instituted. So Solly was a phonetic play on the Japanese enemy and was a common refrain used by instructors when they 'killed' a student in simulation. "So Solly, you dead." So Solly week became Hell Week, for obvious reasons. By the end of each So Solly week, only a few remained -- sailors who were selected as capable of enduring the rigors of UDT training and operations. These were trained as UDT's. The tradition was retained even after WW2.
The UDT's did succeed in their missions in WW2... spectacularly in many cases. And were later instrumental in the invasion of Pusan during the Korean War, charting the tides and mud-flats in Pusan Harbor. (The UDT's role in Pusan rates a book by itself, IMHO...) In Vietnam, they conducted reconnaissance of harbors, estuaries and, in the early years, may have engaged in some limited combat. (Though I recall from Herbert Best that in 1962... there were just 350 UDT's in the whole Navy. So as a 'combat force' they were not exactly a major force regardless. Whether UDT's engaged in organized combat later in the war (when SEAL Teams were active)... I cannot say. Sailsbury's article implies that the UDT's did not engage in organized combat operations... and as hard-core as they were at their own skill set, it probably remains that land warfare was not what the UDT's were trained for.
So the 1960's come along and John F. Kennedy is utterly obsessed with Special Operations Forces. Recall JFK's visit to Ft. Bragg in 1961 where he personally authorized the wearing of the green beret. Suddenly the Army has a monopoly on SOF forces and was the darling of Camelot. The Air Force has a monopoly on technology and missiles (and lots of reflected glory from the Space Program). And the Navy is a dinosaur. Plenty of people were arguing in 1962 that a battleship/carrier Navy was a relic of the past and un-survivable in a nuclear age. In addition, Vietnam is starting to heat up and if the Navy wants any kind of major role in Counterinsurgency (COIN), which the Kennedys love, they better do something fast. Budgets are at stake.
So the Navy decides to create a "Green Berets" like Counter-insurgency unit called SEAL's. And they need to do it fast! Standing for SEa Air Land, which represents all the environments in which these new COIN sailors will operate, they became amphibious sailors and the acronym SEAL was born. To create this unit in a hurry, the Navy literally strips out the UDT's and many UDT's become SEAL's overnight and are sent off to Airborne Training, land warfare training, Ranger Training, COIN training, etc. I cannot recall whether or not the new "SEALS" volunteered or whether they were simply re-assigned. I seem to recall from Marcinko that he was assigned without much choice in the matter, but that he was pleased with the re-assignment. And that many UDT's who were 'not' selected tried hard to move over to the shiny new unit. The result was that the Navy was able to tell the White House and McNamara that they now had a "Special Warfare" unit and a COIN capability. And the new units, though tiny, performed extremely well in Vietnam and, well, to this day are a world-class SoF force. In transitioning the UDT's, the Navy apparently made a very good choice!
Again from memory, I believe the early 1960's was also the point at which BUD training went to BUD/S training... Basic Underwater Demolition/Seal training, to create the fine point. And perhaps we can argue that the "slash" indicated that personnel for two distinct units were being selected in BUD/S. But I may be wrong on this, so if someone has a better reference... please correct me. Ultimately, some BUD/S graduates (survivors?) went on to the SEAL Teams and others were assigned to the Underwater Demolition Teams and retained the traditional role of UDT. My guess (and I don't have documentation at hand to show this) is that while the SEALs went on to "Finishing School" for months to prepare to be accepted into the teams, the UDT candidates went to their own specific schools for their specific skill sets -- a different skill set from the SEAL's, though no doubt still rigorous. If I recall, most if not all of the UDT sailors were eventually re-trained and all were moved into the SEALs and/or into salvage diving and recovery units by the end of the 1970's or in the early 1980's. Basically, the UDT moniker disappeared and the SEAL's took over the UDT role in hydrographic reconnaissance, etc. The Salvage Diving units continue to this day and include things like Navy EOD, SeaBees, etc. The legacy of the UDT's can be found, I believe, in both specialties.
To bring things back to Jesse Ventura... and how Sailsbury made his points in the article... it would appear that Ventura was a BUD/S school graduate at a time when a graduate could go to the SEAL's or the UDT's. And Ventura went to the UDT's, not the SEAL's. Had he stayed in the Navy long enough, he would have likely re-trained as a SEAL. But by the early 1980's, he was off hitting people with chairs as a professional 'wrestler.'
So Ventura did graduate BUD/S training, Hell Week, etc. And it is fair to say that, since the UDT's were later folded into the SEAL teams, Ventura's unit later became a SEAL unit. But were UDT's technically SEAL's? I believe that the historic record shows that the post-BUD/S training was where SEAL's were really separated from UDT's. (Dick Couch's book "The Finishing School" details this process very well.) And while both SEALs and UDT's were very amazing units in their own right, they were documented and treated as different units with different missions and skills. And when the units were merged in the 1980's, I am willing to bet that not all the UDT's made it through the re-training in COIN and land warfare and airborne operations, etc. to become SEAL's, so a blanket statement that you were a SEAL if assigned to an Underwater Demolition Team doesn't necessarily pass the historical sniff test. Again, being a UDT was no small thing. IMHO, those guys were as hard-core and fit as their SEAL counterparts. But they had a different fundamental mission and perhaps should wear the UDT moniker with the same pride as a SEAL wears a Trident.
And, finally, to add to the confusion, the UDT/SEAL museum in Ft. Pierce, by its very title, implies that the two units are, to a degree, treated 'as one.' And I believe there is a UDT/SEAL Association which does not discriminate among its members as to which unit they served in. My impression is that brotherhood of making it through BUD/S and Hell Week tends to be the uniting factor, not the post-BUD/S training each sailor received. If you made it through BUD/S, you are considered worthy... and who am I to argue!
So Ventura, perhaps, is treading a fine line with his claims of being a SEAL. But since everyone in America has heard of SEAL's and only a few folks know about UDT's, what do you think Ventura is going to do? He'es going to try and walk the fine line and claim SEAL status. Because it's self-explanatory. If he says "I was a SEAL" All of America instantly recognizes his pedigree and he has instant status as a member of that elite unit. If he tries to state that "I was a UDT and UDT's are like SEAL's.... " the public gives a big yawn and says "Like a SEAL... sure. I passed Summer Camp Swim Class... or took SCUBA lessons on a Disney Cruise... that's LIKE being a SEAL, too." ;-) So Ventura is skating a fine line between truth (he passed BUD/S and was in an elite unit that became part of the SEAL teams)... and, perhaps, a falsehood (since he was technically a UDT, and apparently was never assigned to an operational SEAL unit).
I guess the opinions I would respect most (WRT whether Ventura is being honest or not) are the opinions of past and present SEAL Team members and his fellow UDT's. IMHO, I haven't earned the privilege of making that call, though I have my opinions on his recent career that revolves around fomenting TV conspiracy theories and filing lawsuits. The core question of whether he is a SEAL or not... maybe is for warriors to decide. Historians can look at the record and the minutia of the paperwork... and report what it says or at least implies. But only those who earned the SEAL trident or UDT moniker... can decide whether Ventura is a SEAL or a UDT or, for that matter, whether that matters within in their select community. Only those within the brotherhood can decide... who belongs, whatever the historical record may imply.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Apologize in advance for any errors here, because the books I am going to cite (Herbert Best "The Webfoot Warriors" c. 1962 and Richard Marcinko "Rogue Warrior" c, 1991 are not at hand. So going from memory here... And I have not read Marcinko for 15 years... but just finished Best a few months ago.
The Seals lineage goes back to the Navy Combat Demolition Teams (NCDT). They were land-based demolitions specialists who, essentially, walked onto shore with an invasion force and would clear obstacles, mines, etc. They were not equipped to 'swim.' In fact, they waded ashore wearing firefighters coveralls and Kapok lifejackets!
After Tarawa, the Navy saw a need to create teams that could swim into an objective and work on land to clear obstacles but, more importantly, which could operate underwater. These new sailors had to be able to operate in a hostile environment and they had to be covert (lest they tip off a defending force.) And while they were tasked with demolitions of obstacles immediately before or during an invasion, their most important role was hydrographic reconnaissance which included mapping shorelines, charting reefs, marking locations of obstacles and mines to ensure that the invasion force was not facing geographically-impossible landing areas or insurmountable defensive positions.
Appointed during WW2 to transition the NCDU's to this new kind of unit, Underwater Demolition Teams (UDT's), was a young officer named Draper Kaufman. He was not a swimmer or a frogman... he was an explosives expert. But he expanded the early NCDU training facilities at Ft. Pierce in Florida and set up the original UDT program, recruiting new candidates from across the Navy and Marine Corps. Kaufman also faced a challenge... training a relatively large number of UDT sailors in just weeks. By comparison, Easy Company 101st... spent some 19 months in solid intensive training to achieve their level of fitness and excellence -- Ambrose "Band of Brothers"). Kaufman had to find the absolute fittest, mentally-prepared, never-quit men and train them in time for the next island hop(s) in the Pacific. He had a few weeks where other units had months/years to prepare. So he had to compress months of 'elite' training into the shortest timetable possible. He did this in a course that became Basic Underwater Demolition training... and to separate out people quickly, a 'weed out week' which was originally called "So Solly" week, was instituted. So Solly was a phonetic play on the Japanese enemy and was a common refrain used by instructors when they 'killed' a student in simulation. "So Solly, you dead." So Solly week became Hell Week, for obvious reasons. By the end of each So Solly week, only a few remained -- sailors who were selected as capable of enduring the rigors of UDT training and operations. These were trained as UDT's. The tradition was retained even after WW2.
The UDT's did succeed in their missions in WW2... spectacularly in many cases. And were later instrumental in the invasion of Pusan during the Korean War, charting the tides and mud-flats in Pusan Harbor. (The UDT's role in Pusan rates a book by itself, IMHO...) In Vietnam, they conducted reconnaissance of harbors, estuaries and, in the early years, may have engaged in some limited combat. (Though I recall from Herbert Best that in 1962... there were just 350 UDT's in the whole Navy. So as a 'combat force' they were not exactly a major force regardless. Whether UDT's engaged in organized combat later in the war (when SEAL Teams were active)... I cannot say. Sailsbury's article implies that the UDT's did not engage in organized combat operations... and as hard-core as they were at their own skill set, it probably remains that land warfare was not what the UDT's were trained for.
So the 1960's come along and John F. Kennedy is utterly obsessed with Special Operations Forces. Recall JFK's visit to Ft. Bragg in 1961 where he personally authorized the wearing of the green beret. Suddenly the Army has a monopoly on SOF forces and was the darling of Camelot. The Air Force has a monopoly on technology and missiles (and lots of reflected glory from the Space Program). And the Navy is a dinosaur. Plenty of people were arguing in 1962 that a battleship/carrier Navy was a relic of the past and un-survivable in a nuclear age. In addition, Vietnam is starting to heat up and if the Navy wants any kind of major role in Counterinsurgency (COIN), which the Kennedys love, they better do something fast. Budgets are at stake.
So the Navy decides to create a "Green Berets" like Counter-insurgency unit called SEAL's. And they need to do it fast! Standing for SEa Air Land, which represents all the environments in which these new COIN sailors will operate, they became amphibious sailors and the acronym SEAL was born. To create this unit in a hurry, the Navy literally strips out the UDT's and many UDT's become SEAL's overnight and are sent off to Airborne Training, land warfare training, Ranger Training, COIN training, etc. I cannot recall whether or not the new "SEALS" volunteered or whether they were simply re-assigned. I seem to recall from Marcinko that he was assigned without much choice in the matter, but that he was pleased with the re-assignment. And that many UDT's who were 'not' selected tried hard to move over to the shiny new unit. The result was that the Navy was able to tell the White House and McNamara that they now had a "Special Warfare" unit and a COIN capability. And the new units, though tiny, performed extremely well in Vietnam and, well, to this day are a world-class SoF force. In transitioning the UDT's, the Navy apparently made a very good choice!
Again from memory, I believe the early 1960's was also the point at which BUD training went to BUD/S training... Basic Underwater Demolition/Seal training, to create the fine point. And perhaps we can argue that the "slash" indicated that personnel for two distinct units were being selected in BUD/S. But I may be wrong on this, so if someone has a better reference... please correct me. Ultimately, some BUD/S graduates (survivors?) went on to the SEAL Teams and others were assigned to the Underwater Demolition Teams and retained the traditional role of UDT. My guess (and I don't have documentation at hand to show this) is that while the SEALs went on to "Finishing School" for months to prepare to be accepted into the teams, the UDT candidates went to their own specific schools for their specific skill sets -- a different skill set from the SEAL's, though no doubt still rigorous. If I recall, most if not all of the UDT sailors were eventually re-trained and all were moved into the SEALs and/or into salvage diving and recovery units by the end of the 1970's or in the early 1980's. Basically, the UDT moniker disappeared and the SEAL's took over the UDT role in hydrographic reconnaissance, etc. The Salvage Diving units continue to this day and include things like Navy EOD, SeaBees, etc. The legacy of the UDT's can be found, I believe, in both specialties.
To bring things back to Jesse Ventura... and how Sailsbury made his points in the article... it would appear that Ventura was a BUD/S school graduate at a time when a graduate could go to the SEAL's or the UDT's. And Ventura went to the UDT's, not the SEAL's. Had he stayed in the Navy long enough, he would have likely re-trained as a SEAL. But by the early 1980's, he was off hitting people with chairs as a professional 'wrestler.'
So Ventura did graduate BUD/S training, Hell Week, etc. And it is fair to say that, since the UDT's were later folded into the SEAL teams, Ventura's unit later became a SEAL unit. But were UDT's technically SEAL's? I believe that the historic record shows that the post-BUD/S training was where SEAL's were really separated from UDT's. (Dick Couch's book "The Finishing School" details this process very well.) And while both SEALs and UDT's were very amazing units in their own right, they were documented and treated as different units with different missions and skills. And when the units were merged in the 1980's, I am willing to bet that not all the UDT's made it through the re-training in COIN and land warfare and airborne operations, etc. to become SEAL's, so a blanket statement that you were a SEAL if assigned to an Underwater Demolition Team doesn't necessarily pass the historical sniff test. Again, being a UDT was no small thing. IMHO, those guys were as hard-core and fit as their SEAL counterparts. But they had a different fundamental mission and perhaps should wear the UDT moniker with the same pride as a SEAL wears a Trident.
And, finally, to add to the confusion, the UDT/SEAL museum in Ft. Pierce, by its very title, implies that the two units are, to a degree, treated 'as one.' And I believe there is a UDT/SEAL Association which does not discriminate among its members as to which unit they served in. My impression is that brotherhood of making it through BUD/S and Hell Week tends to be the uniting factor, not the post-BUD/S training each sailor received. If you made it through BUD/S, you are considered worthy... and who am I to argue!
So Ventura, perhaps, is treading a fine line with his claims of being a SEAL. But since everyone in America has heard of SEAL's and only a few folks know about UDT's, what do you think Ventura is going to do? He'es going to try and walk the fine line and claim SEAL status. Because it's self-explanatory. If he says "I was a SEAL" All of America instantly recognizes his pedigree and he has instant status as a member of that elite unit. If he tries to state that "I was a UDT and UDT's are like SEAL's.... " the public gives a big yawn and says "Like a SEAL... sure. I passed Summer Camp Swim Class... or took SCUBA lessons on a Disney Cruise... that's LIKE being a SEAL, too." ;-) So Ventura is skating a fine line between truth (he passed BUD/S and was in an elite unit that became part of the SEAL teams)... and, perhaps, a falsehood (since he was technically a UDT, and apparently was never assigned to an operational SEAL unit).
I guess the opinions I would respect most (WRT whether Ventura is being honest or not) are the opinions of past and present SEAL Team members and his fellow UDT's. IMHO, I haven't earned the privilege of making that call, though I have my opinions on his recent career that revolves around fomenting TV conspiracy theories and filing lawsuits. The core question of whether he is a SEAL or not... maybe is for warriors to decide. Historians can look at the record and the minutia of the paperwork... and report what it says or at least implies. But only those who earned the SEAL trident or UDT moniker... can decide whether Ventura is a SEAL or a UDT or, for that matter, whether that matters within in their select community. Only those within the brotherhood can decide... who belongs, whatever the historical record may imply.
Cheers,
Sirhr
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