Join me on my EPIC AR accuracy journey! From reloading to bullet hole @600yards! WITH PICS

[mxjunky78]

Thanks a lot for posting! This is of great benefit to someone like me who is just now getting into loading rifle after years of pistol/shotgun loading. I for sure appreciate your time, patience and money spent on this thread. Keep up the good work.

 

[elfster1234]

Being that I covered one of the most popular 1:10twist AR-10 168grn .308 bullets on the market, the 168grn AMAX as in the original post,,,,,,, I figured I would load up another very popular 168grn bullet on the market. The sierra matchking 168grn match boat tail hollow point. Besides the fact I'm out of .308 ammo and I'm hitting the 600yard range again this next week.

I loaded up the sierra 168grn bthp matchkings with the very same 2600fps in comparison to the 168grn AMAX in the original post....... to produce 2600fps with the SMK's as per the reloading book with 41.9grns of varget. The ballistics coefficient of the 168grn sierra matchking .462 is a little less in comparison to the 168grn AMAX's .475BC. You can see the difference right off the bat with my ballistics calculator with the damn near extra 1moa elevation adjustment @ 600yards and less velocity / energy @ 600yards.

Also, when testing the maximum OGIVE "touching the lands" with my LMT MWS / sierra matchking 168grn bthp bullets I came up with 2.2450maximum. I decided to try a .020" jump to the lands on this run of reloads. Once I seated the bullets with a .020 jump to the lands you can see in the PMAG picture that if I would've loaded to full magazine length that I'm positive my bullets would've been touching the lands if not jammed into the lands. Just another reason why it is important to use the OAL gauge in my opinion. It's one thing to jamb the bullet into the lands with a bolt-action as you can feel the pressure with your hand while closing the bolt, it is a big NO NO when reloading for a semi-auto.

2600fps @ the muzzle with 41.9grns of varget used

Maximum OGIVE seating depth "touching the lands" with MY LMT MWS of 2.2450 (notice I ran 4 tests with my hornady OAL gauge and picked the smallest test#),,, and with a .020 bullet jump I ended up with a 2.2250 OGIVE seated depth.

As in this picture, I still had about .020 room left for full magazine length... if I would've reloaded to full magazine length then MY bullet would've been jammed into the lands when loaded OR would've been really really damn close to it... Just another reason why I'm a huge fan of the hornady OAL gauge with AR-10's and PMAG's.

Ballistics run on these sierra matchkings 168grn. Not as good as the 168grn AMAX's, but still pretty damn good. I will only know if they are more accurate this next week when I test them on the 600yard range. I'm looking forward to it!

 

[ole'soldier]

from elfster1234:
"BTW, for those that do reload......... what was going through your mind when you fired your very first round of reloaded ammo? did you have a string attached to your trigger standing 30feet away?? Hahahahaha, totally kidding!!! I'll tell you what was going through my mind... OH SHIT, here we go! F#ck it, I'm doing this $hit! After 5rounds that thought was non-existent and reloading has been the most rewarding and fun thing to do as a hobby...[/QUOTE]"


This was me the first time, I made sure I wore my shooters gloves, the full finger ones! With all I read on squibs and slam fires I was nervous to put it lightly. After the first few rounds and readings that were less than 100fps difference in my shots(my shooting buddy pointed that out, it was his chrony), that nervousness went bye bye and was replaced with much satisfaction from being a bit anal about the process. I didn't use my progressive as a progressive loader except for full case resizing and de-priming. I basically weighted 75% of the rounds to made sure the throws were right. Sky's the limit now. Good write up, I'm new to reloading myself and only reload 223 currently. Good information here. I wish I had started sooner instead of putting it off.

 

[Delta4-3]

BTW, for those that do reload......... what was going through your mind when you fired your very first round of reloaded ammo? did you have a string attached to your trigger standing 30feet away?? Hahahahaha, totally kidding!!! I'll tell you what was going through my mind... OH SHIT, here we go! F#ck it, I'm doing this $hit! After 5rounds that thought was non-existent and reloading has been the most rewarding and fun thing to do as a hobby...

I was 6 or 7 years old. I was probably thinking about a snickers, or how bad that little .250 savage kicked, or its also quite likely that I was wondering if I looked like Indiana Jones. They key is to start reloading before you hit pueberty.

 

[ole'soldier]

I was 6 or 7 years old. I was probably thinking about a snickers, or how bad that little .250 savage kicked, or its also quite likely that I was wondering if I looked like Indiana Jones. They key is to start reloading before you hit pueberty.

Sorry, I actually quoted elfster1234, that was a question from the OP. I only wanted the question he asked from his post so sorry about that and sorry elfster1234, I was responding to your question.

 

[elfster1234]

nope, totally got it and thanks for your reply, & no need to apologize.... my friend was the same way when he first started to reload.. he was nervous as shit! LOL

Sorry, I actually quoted elfster1234, that was a question from the OP. I only wanted the question he asked from his post so sorry about that and sorry elfster1234, I was responding to your question.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

nope, totally got it and thanks for your reply, & no need to apologize.... my friend was the same way when he first started to reload.. he was nervous as shit! LOL

Elfster,

I've noticed that your Varget loads are frequently below Hogdon's recommended starting loads for the bullets you are shooting.

Sierra (and other bullet manufacturers) frequently lists loads below powder manufacturer's recommendation for liability reasons.

Have you tried pushing up to max load (in your rifle) to see if you get same or better accuracy?

For instance, Hogdon lists 42gr & 46gr Varget as min & max load for 168gr bullets, but you are down at 41.9gr.

My 600yard loads for highpower shooting are at the highest velocity accuracy nodes that exhibit no pressure signs...this is almost always at or within 1.2 gr the max charge listed by the powder manufacturers.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

BTW, excellent posts! Keep up the good work.

 

[elfster1234]

I think if i was running a bolt action i would have no problems doing that, but with a gas gun as in example my lmt i dont like to go over 43.5 grns varget = over gass and just not needed..... I think if i was going over 600yards id start pushing the extremes but id make sure im using a chrono also... Ive seen too many blown primer pockets using factory super performance in gas guns.

Elfster,

I've noticed that your Varget loads are frequently below Hogdon's recommended starting loads for the bullets you are shooting.

Sierra (and other bullet manufacturers) frequently lists loads below powder manufacturer's recommendation for liability reasons.

Have you tried pushing up to max load (in your rifle) to see if you get same or better accuracy?

For instance, Hogdon lists 42gr & 46gr Varget as min & max load for 168gr bullets, but you are down at 41.9gr.

My 600yard loads for highpower shooting are at the highest velocity accuracy nodes that exhibit no pressure signs...this is almost always at or within 1.2 gr the max charge listed by the powder manufacturers.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

BTW, excellent posts! Keep up the good work.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Elfster,

Please understand that I'm not trying to change your philosophy, just giving you something to think about if you decide to start shooting competitively.

First off, I use ARs for all my competitive shooting. The comment i made about shooting within 1.2gr of the published max loads applies to AR platforms.

The follwoing wall of text does no apply to you, but this thread gets visibility, and i will use it to try to disabuse some misconceptions i see repeated when it comes to semi-autos in general and ARs specifically.

The word "overgassed" is used a lot on the internet, and i think most people dont understand what it means, or that it is not necessarily a bad thing.

For a given barrel with a fixed gas port size (no adjustable gas block), there exists ONLY ONE gas pressure that is "optimal". Anything above or below that is "overgassed" or "undergassed". Obviously, severely over-gassed or severly under-gassed leads to function or pressure issues.

For me, i don't care whether my rifle is overgassed or undergassed, as long as there are no function issues, and of course, the over-gassed condition do not lead to pressure signs on the brass.

Many AR shooters have arbitrarily decided that ejection patterns are their biggest worry...to each his own.

I did not buy a 308 to get .30-30 performance. I believe in extracting the maximal performance from my rifle consistent with safe operation.

Anywho, i can't wait for your next update.

PS 44.4gr of Varget with 175s were the ticket in my 308AR. Since switching to AR-Comp 40.6-40.8gr, i use 40.7 per OCW is the best accuracy i have extracted from my 308AR. In my NM AR-15, 23.5gr AR-comp + 77gr SMK at mag-length is the second coming. and for 600yards, 24-24.2gr AR-comp with 80gr SMK is my 600 yard load. 80gr load is not mag-length, its a single load, single-fire deal.

 

[elfster1234]

I totally appreciate your response.

I've tested varget loads with 168 bullets all the way from 38.8 up to 44.0 in my LMT MWS. My most accurate "lower node" is 40.5varget, and my "upper node" is 42.2varget. I've noticed blow primer pockets once you start pushing 44grns of varget in multiple gas guns, and to be honest with you I never shoot over 600yards, and my 42.2 "upper node" will shoot sub-moa as in my orginal thread. I should own a chrono, but I don't....... but I tell ya, if my hornady book says it should be close to 2600fps, and that is what I enter into my ballistics calculator, then is is damn near always nuts on elevation wise @ 600yards from what I've tested so far (with both my 5.56 and 7.62 using the FPS out of the hornady book) which is good enough for me as a recreational shooter....... Being that I've personally noticed blow primer pockets once you hit the 44grn varget range, and any type of factory super performance ammo will produce blow primer pockets in a gas operated AR, then my logical reason leads me to believe I should not go over 44grns of varget and I try to limit myself at 43.5grns of varget. Will all AR-10's produce blow primer pockets with super HOT loads? NO, BUT I've seen too many in multiple rifles to know better... Yes, If you happen to have a "accuracy node" at 44.2grns varget and you feel comfortable shooting this hot with your AR rifle, then so be it... but why should I when my lower accuracy node of 40.5 and 42.2 will blow the doors off a much more and not needed HOT loads especially when i load for the yardage im shooting at.. If I'm shooting 600yards or less, then why should I use anything more than my highest accuracy node for 42.2varget when I still have plenty MOA adjustment, way above super sonic @ 600yards, will save me powder / money, is easy on my brass and will extend the life of my brass, and is much easier on my rifle. Even at 42.2varget my bullet is still way above super sonic, is stable, and has massive knock down power if needed (and all I'm really doing is punching holes in paper)... I could see pushing the extremes of using max varget drop if i was pushing 1000yards or killing some big time game, but i'm not so it is not needed in my opinion. I think you're wayyyyyyy to HOT in my opinion and I don't understand why people think you need to go crazy extreme HOT powder drops to produce good results. Some of my best groups ever have been on the low side of the charts. It only burns up more $powder$ and lowers the life of your brass, while in my opinion produce less accurate results. I'll purposely only load 40.5varget if I know I'll be shooting at 100yards, and then will bump up my load to 42.2 if shooting at 600yards. My actual hunting round for killing deer is the 165 hornady interlock with 43grns of varget with a kiss of a crimp. I would personally never risk the chance of blowing primer pockets with no follow up shot because of it with my LMT's hunting ammo, especially when the shot I'm taking is these Wisconsin woods will never be over 100yards (most likely 50yards or less)..... I'm rather confident that my hunting round with 43grn (which is actually rather high if you ask me) with a light crimp is pushing 2600fps = one dead ass deer at 50yards. I reload for the situation and what produces the best results. Even at my lower 40.5grns varget for punching holes in paper @ 100yards and maybe 300yards tops (all i would ever use 40.5varget for is punching holes in paper from 0 to 300yards so who cares) I know it will be kicking a 30-30's ass so this is a moot issue to me (typical 30-30 factory Winchester is only producing 2389fps @ the muzzle with only 1901 energy)... If Winchester's 30-30 factory is producing 2390fps with only 1900energy for a hunting round, and my low node of 40.5varget is around 2400fps with 2200energy for putting holes in paper = i really don't care i guess. The one thing i know is my 43grn hunting round is producing close to 2600fps @ 2500ft-lbs of energy shooting under 100yards = one really dead deer. I reload for the situation, not one complete super hot blanket load.. Just not needed in my opinion. Also, to say a varget load over 44grns in a gas operated rifle doesn't produce a VERY noticeable kick bottoming out your stock LMT's buffer tube is not hard on your rifle is kinda pushing it if you ask me.... let alone the fact that most gas guns with that hot of a load will most likely produce blown primers = time to stop shooting...

It is one thing to go super HOT in a bolt action. It is a whole different thing to go super HOT in a gas gun IMO.

I think a good question for you is, have you chrono'd your results with what you're saying? For example only, if I was to use YOUR 44.2grns varget to produce 2650 feet-per-second, then is this accurate using a chrono? or are you guessing like myself and assuming what the books tells you the feet-per-second is correct? Are your powder drop #'s more in line with an accurate feet-per-second as listed in your book??... OR are you burning your barrel on over-charged reloads.... that is the question.

In my OP ballistics example, my hornady reloading book said I should've been close to 2600FPS with 42.2varget (most likely around 2550ish I'm guessing)... 2600fps was entered into my ballistics calculator and I was still high @ 600yards and I still had to adjust down .5moa as in my OP (and yes, before you say anthing I understand other #'s / variables could be wrong)... but for me as a recreational warrior it is good enough for me.

One final note especially as a weekend warrior and I'm guessing more than 51% of you are also... Yes, bullet manufacture reload charts will most likely be more conservative which in my book is a good thing especially for those new to the game.. Unless you are using a chrono to make damn sure, always play it safe and never risk your health. Use the more conservative bullet manufacture charts until you get more experienced and you actually purchase a chrono to test feet per second... To simply load up a hot 44.2varget load because someone else is doing it without working your way up checking for signs of pressure AND without a chrono is being ultra risky... And being ultra risky and reloading is two words that should never mix.

Will need to agree to disagree.

I totally appreciate your input and will put some thought into your suggestions. This is what this forum is all about. Thank you.

Elfster,

Please understand that I'm not trying to change your philosophy, just giving you something to think about if you decide to start shooting competitively.

First off, I use ARs for all my competitive shooting. The comment i made about shooting within 1.2gr of the published max loads applies to AR platforms.

The follwoing wall of text does no apply to you, but this thread gets visibility, and i will use it to try to disabuse some misconceptions i see repeated when it comes to semi-autos in general and ARs specifically.

The word "overgassed" is used a lot on the internet, and i think most people dont understand what it means, or that it is not necessarily a bad thing.

For a given barrel with a fixed gas port size (no adjustable gas block), there exists ONLY ONE gas pressure that is "optimal". Anything above or below that is "overgassed" or "undergassed". Obviously, severely over-gassed or severly under-gassed leads to function or pressure issues.

For me, i don't care whether my rifle is overgassed or undergassed, as long as there are no function issues, and of course, the over-gassed condition do not lead to pressure signs on the brass.

Many AR shooters have arbitrarily decided that ejection patterns are their biggest worry...to each his own.

I did not buy a 308 to get .30-30 performance. I believe in extracting the maximal performance from my rifle consistent with safe operation.

Anywho, i can't wait for your next update.

PS 44.4gr of Varget with 175s were the ticket in my 308AR. Since switching to AR-Comp 40.6-40.8gr, i use 40.7 per OCW is the best accuracy i have extracted from my 308AR. In my NM AR-15, 23.5gr AR-comp + 77gr SMK at mag-length is the second coming. and for 600yards, 24-24.2gr AR-comp with 80gr SMK is my 600 yard load. 80gr load is not mag-length, its a single load, single-fire deal.

 

[Smokerroller]

Great thread elfster thanks for putting it together!!

 

[elfster1234]

Got back from the 600yard range today shooting the above 168grn sierra matchking reloads. Let me tell you... Not only was it stupid hot (91, felt like damn near 100) and humid as hell out, but I was working against a very sporadic 10-14mph winds. I re-ran my ballistics before I took off due the the extreme heat and it said to use 13moa UP.... Once again, my ipad "ballistics" program was 100% spot on using the 41.9varget / 2600fps reloading info right out of the sierra book @ 13moa up elevation. I didn't even need to touch my turrets during the entire round today and this program continues to amaze me every time I use it & how accurate it has been every single time especially for only using the feet-per-second data right out of my reloading book & not using a chrono at all (goes for both my 7.62LMT & 5.56RRA)... My windage guess of 2moa left for the wind was spot on also (waiting for shots when wind evened out & was consistent).... I shot 5 total groups,, with two groups just a smidge under sub-moa, two groups right around 1moa, and the 5th group right around 1.3moa ish give or take. I'm getting a lot better reading the wind and was really waiting for a consistent wind to take my shots & met my goal of keeping all shots in the black. These groups are not the best in the world, but with the wind I was working with today and keeping all of the shots on the black bullseye makes me happy.

Rifle used today, LMT MWS 7.62x51 20"CL barrel

God's land, 600yards (wish it was 1000! LOL).....

my reloads, 168grn sierra matchking with 41.9varget @ ~2600fps

all shots @ 600yards & was rather windy (about ~ 10 to 14mph)

 

[SD26]

God's land, 600yards (wish it was 1000! LOL).....

Wow! Remember last year how dry it was? Looks very nice and green! Yeah, I know, it has been hot. Maybe that'll change this weekend...

Nice job!

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Elfster,

Firstly, outstanding shooting, given the wind conditions.

Secondly, i notice some vertical stringing in your groups...they can be from one of two things; position/fundamentals or load with high ES (extreme spread in muzzle velocity). Can you give us a sense of how big the vertical stringing is?

ES tends to be high at low charge weights and smooth out as you increase the charge weights...up to a point.

Again, good shooting, and keep up the good work.

 

[elfster1234]

Tell ya what, next time I load up some rounds for the 600yard range I'll load them up to max that I like to shoot out of my LMT. I'll give it a shot.

Elfster,

Firstly, outstanding shooting, given the wind conditions.

Secondly, i notice some vertical stringing in your groups...they can be from one of two things; position/fundamentals or load with high ES (extreme spread in muzzle velocity). Can you give us a sense of how big the vertical stringing is?

ES tends to be high at low charge weights and smooth out as you increase the charge weights...up to a point.

Again, good shooting, and keep up the good work.

 

[LRRPF52]

Nice write-up again. About chronographs:

I think chronographs are an important tool when developing a load as you get near the maximums. I personally like to run a few batches of ladders where every case has a different charge weight in it, working in increments appropriate for the case volume. As the charge weight increases, I can immediately see the velocity increase and determine what the average increase in fps is per .X grs of powder. Once I start to hit maximum, I will see a sudden spike or significant mv increase or even decrease, letting me know where that place is so I can stay away from it. So far, it usually coincides with book data, which is another check that I'm in the right ballpark.

Elfster, I think you need a 6.5 Grendel. I can tell you will enjoy loading for it and shooting it. Imagine handling and weight like your .223 AR, with ballistics closer to the .308, with half the recoil of the .308, and only taking 27-34gr of powder depending on what bullet/powder combo you're using. You also will have bullets with BC's that are .510 G1 in the 123gr weight class. I would very much like to see the format of this thread loading for the Grendel, and the small groups you would make at the 600yd line easily.

 

[elfster1234]

This is really good info. Its nice when i can learn something new on a daily basis. Thanks!

Nice write-up again. About chronographs:

I think chronographs are an important tool when developing a load as you get near the maximums. I personally like to run a few batches of ladders where every case has a different charge weight in it, working in increments appropriate for the case volume. As the charge weight increases, I can immediately see the velocity increase and determine what the average increase in fps is per .X grs of powder. Once I start to hit maximum, I will see a sudden spike or significant mv increase or even decrease, letting me know where that place is so I can stay away from it. So far, it usually coincides with book data, which is another check that I'm in the right ballpark.

Elfster, I think you need a 6.5 Grendel. I can tell you will enjoy loading for it and shooting it. Imagine handling and weight like your .223 AR, with ballistics closer to the .308, with half the recoil of the .308, and only taking 27-34gr of powder depending on what bullet/powder combo you're using. You also will have bullets with BC's that are .510 G1 in the 123gr weight class. I would very much like to see the format of this thread loading for the Grendel, and the small groups you would make at the 600yd line easily.

 

[pattimusprime]

This thread was a fantastic read. Great job on the write up elfster! I really appreciate the amount of work that went into this post and hope to see more like it in the future. I'm on a journey of my own, not quite on the same level though.. Trying to get my .223 AR down to sub-moa groups.

 

[elfster1234]

Thanks man and im glad you enjoyed the thread. I try my best to inform others with my own personally experiences with AR's and reloading.

I just loaded up some different combos with what i would consider max loads for my LMT.

1. Loaded up some lake city with 168amax with 43grns varget

2. And some of my hunting rounds with lake city & 165 interlock boat tail soft point with 43grns varget with a light kiss of a crimp on the bullet..... These bullets are fantasic for not only hunting, but i routinely get sub moa results out of them for plinking at $24.99 per 100pcs.


I might hit the 600yard range tomorrow with the hotter amax loads if weather allows. For sure hitting the 300yard range this weekend.

This thread was a fantastic read. Great job on the write up elfster! I really appreciate the amount of work that went into this post and hope to see more like it in the future. I'm on a journey of my own, not quite on the same level though.. Trying to get my .223 AR down to sub-moa groups.

 

[elfster1234]

Ok Tx_Flyboy, I took your advice and loaded up some "hotter" 43grn varget amax loads and ended up with some good results actually. I figured I would start the day off by finishing up my 41.9grn varget / matchking 168 loads (had 12 left to shoot) and I actually ended up with some rather good groups even though it started to rain. Thank god the rain let up as I was about to go home & then I tested my 43grn varget / amax 168 loads with really really good results.


This is how I started today, rain! but I said f#ck it and figured I'd take my shots. I was amazed that I ended up with some rather good groups shooting the remainder of the matchking 168 / 41.9 varget in the rain. I doped my scope with the same 13moa up, and estimated .5moa left for the wind and it was pretty much spot on just like last time.

this is how I started today's shots @ 600yards! rain!

shot the last 12rounds from this reload session, matchking168 & 41.9 varget, one @ 5shot group & one @ 7shot group. Both groups right under SUB-MOA

rain cleared up and I was able to test the "hotter" 43grn varget / amax168 loads with really good results. First group was about 4.5" / .72moa, and the second group was about 5" / .795moa, which is actually a big time improvement from what I've shot before @ 600yards. I only shot 2 total 5shot groups (10 total rounds) as the other guys on the line wanted to move up to 300yards, but I'll test the remainder of the 43grn varget / amax168 reloads next week. If I get good performance I'll see if I can bump it up a little more, but I really hate going past 43.5grns. The strange part is (and maybe you can help answer this Tx_Flyboy) I adjusted my elevation back down to 12moa for the extra varget charge from 41.9 to 43.0 / different bullet combo & I was still a tad bit high (which I totally understand),,,,,, BUT the wind really didn't change (still kept the .5moa left) and my 43varget / 168amax group location was about .5moa to .75moa more to the right?? is this due to the faster bullet / spin drift?

As with the result of the M.E.O.C.W. test (previously shot a couple months ago), I think it is safe to say my LMT will damn near shoot any varget powder drop load with good results, but I did notice a big improvement with the "hotter" loads @ 600yards so thanks Tx_Flyboy and I'll keep on testing the remainder of these 43grn varget / amax168 loads next week & maybe reload some hotter 43.2 & 43.4 the following week. This is an example of different varget loads @ 100yards, 11 out of 12 groups are sub-moa. Hmmmm, strange.

Elfster,

I've noticed that your Varget loads are frequently below Hogdon's recommended starting loads for the bullets you are shooting.

Sierra (and other bullet manufacturers) frequently lists loads below powder manufacturer's recommendation for liability reasons.

Have you tried pushing up to max load (in your rifle) to see if you get same or better accuracy?

For instance, Hogdon lists 42gr & 46gr Varget as min & max load for 168gr bullets, but you are down at 41.9gr.

My 600yard loads for highpower shooting are at the highest velocity accuracy nodes that exhibit no pressure signs...this is almost always at or within 1.2 gr the max charge listed by the powder manufacturers.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

BTW, excellent posts! Keep up the good work.

 

[elfster1234]

BTW, I will share one of my best kept secrets. Not only is this my WI deer hunting load, but is also one of my fav plinking loads with sub-moa results out of my LMT. $24.99 per 100pcs 165gr interlock soft point WITH BOAT TAIL!! This is one of the few reloads that I'll put a small "kiss of a crimp" on the bullet.

 

[pattimusprime]

You sure are an inspiration elfster! Unfortunately I am not into reloading yet so I'm forced to use factory ammo. I think I have a good selection of bullet weights and manufacturers to try out though. Ranging from cheap crap to expensive match ammo I hope to bring my groups down to sub-moa tomorrow at the range. If I can't do it I know it's either me or the gun (probably me, which just means I'll have to practice more!).

Here's the ammo I'm gonna try:


Here's a photo of my frankenbuilt ar in 223 wylde:


ps. this is my first attempt at uploading pics so I hope it works!

 

[HairyDemon]

Knew some stuff already, learned a lot of new things, and saw some things I wanted to try in action. Fantastic Thread......Thank you for your time elfster!

 

[elfster1234]

Thanks man, i appreciate it. Im just wondering what it is you found new and what you're doing different now after reading this? Feel free to post your own info as im always game to learn myself.

Knew some stuff already, learned a lot of new things, and saw some things I wanted to try in action. Fantastic Thread......Thank you for your time elfster!

 

[ArmyJerry]

Funny, my bolt shoots 43 Varget in lapua and 43.1 in Win brass for 175 smk's, 44.0 Laua and 44.1 Win for the 168 smks.

 

[Dacam]

Funny, my bolt shoots 43 Varget in lapua and 43.1 in Win brass for 175 smk's, 44.0 Laua and 44.1 Win for the 168 smks.

LMAO...These are my exact loads for 175smk and 168amax in my AI AE MKIII! I also shoot 45.5 under 155 Scenars.

 

[elfster1234]

so,,,,,, I went back to the 600yard range today and finished off the last 5 reloads from the 43grn / 168amax rounds and once again 1week later I was able to reproduce about a 4" (.636moa) 5shot group @ 600yards so I think it's safe to say I'm onto something with my "more hot / more grns of varget" 600yard pet load. I find this very strange as this same load would usually shoot like shit @ 100yards??? this goes against all logic for me. Anyway, I'm going to load up some more in the near future with a tad bit more heat, maybe around 43.1, maybe 43.3grns varget. So far so good.

Ok Tx_Flyboy, I took your advice and loaded up some "hotter" 43grn varget amax loads and ended up with some good results actually. I figured I would start the day off by finishing up my 41.9grn varget / matchking 168 loads (had 12 left to shoot) and I actually ended up with some rather good groups even though it started to rain. Thank god the rain let up as I was about to go home & then I tested my 43grn varget / amax 168 loads with really really good results.


rain cleared up and I was able to test the "hotter" 43grn varget / amax168 loads with really good results. First group was about 4.5" / .72moa, and the second group was about 5" / .795moa, which is actually a big time improvement from what I've shot before @ 600yards. I only shot 2 total 5shot groups (10 total rounds) as the other guys on the line wanted to move up to 300yards, but I'll test the remainder of the 43grn varget / amax168 reloads next week. If I get good performance I'll see if I can bump it up a little more, but I really hate going past 43.5grns. The strange part is (and maybe you can help answer this Tx_Flyboy) I adjusted my elevation back down to 12moa for the extra varget charge from 41.9 to 43.0 / different bullet combo & I was still a tad bit high (which I totally understand),,,,,, BUT the wind really didn't change (still kept the .5moa left) and my 43varget / 168amax group location was about .5moa to .75moa more to the right?? is this due to the faster bullet / spin drift?

As with the result of the M.E.O.C.W. test (previously shot a couple months ago), I think it is safe to say my LMT will damn near shoot any varget powder drop load with good results, but I did notice a big improvement with the "hotter" loads @ 600yards so thanks Tx_Flyboy and I'll keep on testing the remainder of these 43grn varget / amax168 loads next week & maybe reload some hotter 43.2 & 43.4 the following week. This is an example of different varget loads @ 100yards, 11 out of 12 groups are sub-moa. Hmmmm, strange.

 

[elfster1234]

once again, something that goes against all logic in my mind..... these "cheaper" plinking / hunting rounds using the 165grn interlocks w/boat-tail that shoot pretty damn good at 100yards & up to 300yards (usually around sub-moa to about 1.25moa at 100 to 300yards),,,,,,, shot like absolute crap @ 600yards..... no shit, my groups were about 10" to 12" in size!!!! holy $hit!!! something seriously goes to shit between 300 to 600yards with this load / bullet and my groups were sooooooo bad that I couldn't even bring myself to take a picture. After 2 total groups @ 5shots each I just stopped shooting them @ 600yards, and wasted them shooting steel chickens in the standing un-supported position @ 300yards.

BTW, I will share one of my best kept secrets. Not only is this my WI deer hunting load, but is also one of my fav plinking loads with sub-moa results out of my LMT. $24.99 per 100pcs 165gr interlock soft point WITH BOAT TAIL!! This is one of the few reloads that I'll put a small "kiss of a crimp" on the bullet.

 

[elfster1234]

BTW, the more and more I shoot @ 600yards, the more I find that 168amax is king of the block with my LMT's 1:10twist 20"CL barrel..... at these ranges, load development plays a HUGE factor. I find it really amazing that you can get such HUGE group size differences between the bullet used, and the powder drop amount used. I think once I can lock down a kick ass 600yard load (so far I'm thinking about 43 to 43.5 varget with 168amax), then i'll start playing around with seating depth / distance off the lands.

 

[TRD1911]

Great post. Added to favorites to check back in. Thanks.

 

[elfster1234]

BTW, here is a better view of my red neck brass catcher. Seriously, it is just a carry-on duffle bag that already had a built in steel ring around the mouth opening & the base, a stitched / zip-tied in crappy black pillow case, and a plastic utility tray. Just stuff I had around the house and it works perfect 100%. No lost brass, and no damaged brass. Most times than not you will have items around the house to make your own brass catcher or purchase items dirt cheap. I personally don't like brass catchers that hang off my rifle in order to improve accuracy.

Before you ask, yes.. my crappy butler creek scope caps broke off & the blue painters tape is a trick I use to make the caps more "snug".

 

[elfster1234]

just got back from the 600yard range... the one day I don't bring my friggen camera I get a f#cking 3" 5shot group @ 600yards with my rock river arms 18'' EOP varmint 5.56 rifle. Best group @ 600yards to date. Prob about a .48moa group. yeah yeah, didn't happen with no pic... was with 60grn vmax with 23.8 varget and cci 400 primers. I was soooo kicking myself. Oh well.

 

[NUTT]

Nice thread & great documentation. Thanks.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Howdy Elfster.

Sorry for being absent. I was at Camp Perry Ohio for the national matches for 10days (Shot like crap...equipment issues & bad case of nerves).

Glad to see my suggestions is working out for you.

Unfortunately, i don't have an answer for your loads that are biased to the right...typically, objects spinning faster are more resistant to precession, so your experience is counter intuitive. You just might be canting the rifle a bit and not realize it.

I would continue to work up ur loads for the 168s, and creep up in .2 gr increments as you pass 44gr...You can always stop at a lower accuracy node as long as you understand that it will likely exhibit a high ES and will cost you points at longer distance.

Keep up the good work. Cant wait to read your next update.

 

[elfster1234]

Taking the new rock river arms ATH to the 600yard range this coming Thursday to stretch her legs. Will make sure I remember to bring my camera this time

 

[Hookman]

Elf - Great work on detailing your process and results.

 

[elfster1234]

SEE PICS BELOW!

I finally got out to the 600yard range to test my new rock river arms ATH with 18'' stainless steel 1:8twist barrel & some 60grn vmax bullets with 23.8grns of varget behind it. Scope was adjusted to 18moa UP for the following load @ 600yards FYI. The nice part about all of this is,,,,,,, this is the scope off my LMT and I didn't even need to touch the turrets or zero stop! Rather than adjusting 12 to 13moa up for my .308 LMT, I adjust up about 17 to 18moa up for this new 5.56 rock river arms. Didn't need to touch the zero or zero stop! Big thanks to the larue QD LT158 mounts! I absolutely love this rifle and has surpassed all expectations and he is a keeper! Not only that, but I shot one of my best groups to date, 2.75" @ 600yards which works out to about .4377moa! I shot 6 total groups @ 600yards with some rather impressive groups for this new rifle. I think I just went over 100rounds down the tube so far. I wasn't really going for bulls today. I was 100% going for groups and to test the accuracy of this new rock river arms ATH rifle. 5 out of 6 groups was for sure sub-moa, with the one group I'm guessing right around 1moa. I adjusted the scope a little on last 2 groups.

GROUP#1 @ ~2.75"
GROUP#2 @ ~6"
GROUP#3 @ ~6.5"
GROUP#4 @ ~4.5"
GROUP#5 @ ~6"
GROUP#6 @ ~4"

GROUP SIZE AVERAGE IN INCHES = 29.75 / 6GROUPS = about ~4.9583" / 6.282 = about ~.7893MOA GROUP SIZE AVERAGE.

Very impressed with this rifle so far! Absolutely no FTF or FTE with this rifle at all. It just f#cking shoots and for $1130 dollars I just don't see how you can go wrong. An upgraded trigger in this rifle would make it down right sick.

The 600yard range!

The new ROCK RIVER ARMS ATH!

Sorry, this is the best I could get my camera to focus. By no means reflects the quality of the glass!

 

[fx77]

Elfster, I really appreciate the effort made to create this informative post.
Thanks

 

[elfster1234]

not a problem my friend... this really is one of my most favorite sports / hobbies short of snowboarding and it makes me 100% happy to help inform others with the knowledge I've learned over the years reloading & shooting semi-auto AR's and other semi-auto rifles. It is really nice to log into sniper's hide myself and learn from more experienced people like lowlight & others. I will be reloading and shooting rifles till the day I die.

Elfster, I really appreciate the effort made to create this informative post.
Thanks

 

[LRRPF52]

Is this with the 60grn V-MAX with 23.8 Varget and CCI 400 primers? That's a flat-based bullet with a G1 BC of .265, so those are amazing results at 600yds. What were the wind conditions like?

Interested to see what you would get with the 75gr HPBT, or if you are interested in playing with the 75gr A-MAX.

 

[elfster1234]

60grn vmax are amazing bullets for the price tag of 18 dollars per 100pcs. Wind was maybe 4 to 5mph tops. Ill load up some heavier bullets and test them out for ya.

Is this with the 60grn V-MAX with 23.8 Varget and CCI 400 primers? That's a flat-based bullet with a G1 BC of .265, so those are amazing results at 600yds. What were the wind conditions like?

Interested to see what you would get with the 75gr HPBT, or if you are interested in playing with the 75gr A-MAX.

 

[elfster1234]

I don't have any .224 75amax in my current stock, but I do have hornady BTHP 68's AND 75's. I just loaded up about 20 of each and i'll give it a whirl just for you this coming Thursday.

for those that don't reload & are looking into reloading for .223 / 5.56, notice the difference between standard 55grn FMJ & the huge 75gr BTHP

from left to right, 55grn FMJ, 60grn VMAX, 68grn BTHP MATCH, 75GRN BTHP MATCH

cool pic of a boat load of 55grn FMJ

Is this with the 60grn V-MAX with 23.8 Varget and CCI 400 primers? That's a flat-based bullet with a G1 BC of .265, so those are amazing results at 600yds. What were the wind conditions like?

Interested to see what you would get with the 75gr HPBT, or if you are interested in playing with the 75gr A-MAX.

 

[elfster1234]

Ok, so I went to the 600yard range today when I should've just stayed home. It was seriously pushing 95 with sporadic winds all over the place well over 10mph. I'm on vaca this week and I was soooo looking forward to hitting the 600yard range today so I said F#CK it and still went. It wasn't until I started shooting & checked out the first couple sets of groups that I realized I was wasting my time & money but oh well. Wind was soooo UP & DOWN that it was hard to read and my groups were all over the 4'x8' board & had to take my 5shots as fast as possible for a consistent wind variable. Anyway, in defense of any bullet used & the rifle, am amazed I even got as good of groups as I did with the ungodly heat / mirage / sporadic wind. My rock river arms barrel was on total fire after taking all of these shots with such heat and as you can see with the grass in comparison to previous pictures the heat is & dry weather in Wisconsin is getting really bad. I think it has been 1-1/2 months since I mowed my yard! LOL

Anyway, enough with the excuses & on with the pictures. I'm pretty much discounting all of this info due the bad conditions for 600yard shooting. I figured I'd still share this info even though I felt like I was totally wasting my time. Wasn't really going for bulls & just group size testing out the new grn weight bullets. I'll give this another shot with better conditions some other time. Oh well. All shot with my new rock river arms ATH rifle:

Is this with the 60grn V-MAX with 23.8 Varget and CCI 400 primers? That's a flat-based bullet with a G1 BC of .265, so those are amazing results at 600yds. What were the wind conditions like?

Interested to see what you would get with the 75gr HPBT, or if you are interested in playing with the 75gr A-MAX.

 

[James n TN]

You're getting that vertical in your groups due to the scale you're using. I have the same scale and weigh all my loads out and then dump them into my Denver Instruments TR603D scale which measures down to .01 grains and using the RCBS chargemaster I find the variation in charges vary as much as .2 grns for those that don't think that is much on paper as shown it can make a rifle always shoot vertical groups. Not everyone can afford a 1200.00 scale but I suggest getting a tuned balance beam scale and use that for load verification. Once you eliminate variance in powder charge I bet you'll see your groups shrink and that vertical go away.

 

[elfster1234]

that's good info! I'll look into it.

You're getting that vertical in your groups due to the scale you're using. I have the same scale and weigh all my loads out and then dump them into my Denver Instruments TR603D scale which measures down to .01 grains and using the RCBS chargemaster I find the variation in charges vary as much as .2 grns for those that don't think that is much on paper as shown it can make a rifle always shoot vertical groups. Not everyone can afford a 1200.00 scale but I suggest getting a tuned balance beam scale and use that for load verification. Once you eliminate variance in powder charge I bet you'll see your groups shrink and that vertical go away.

 

[James n TN]

I'm not even sure where a person can find a tuned balance beam scale anymore. Maybe someone on here will chime in and offer some advice on where to look. I guess if worse came to it you could purchase a scale and do some research and learn how tune it yourself.

If you're trying to achieve the most accuracy possible. I can offer you lots of advice in obtaining consistent long range accuracy if interested. Most of this is or can be winter projects where weather is too bad to get out and shoot. So just let me know and I'll be glad to discuss with you what you can do to shrink those groups and keep them small.
I've mentioned one tool you need the other is a good chronograph this to is a very important tool. You got to read your loads by how they go across the chrono not just what they print on paper.
My suggestion on a chronograph that I feel is a great bang for the buck is the CED millennium and get the 4' rail. The further the distance the screens are apart the more consistent and accurate reading you will get. Again I don't know your financial status but this is a must for long range accuracy.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[2pirates]

Elfster, You have some serious mental health issues. Seek professional help. I'm not sure the OCD diagnosis other posters made really covers the depth of your problems. I feel pretty confident in my diagnosis as I once played a Psychologist on a local cable access show.

Seriously I really enjoyed your thread here. It's always interesting and informative for me to see how other people do things. We do a lot of things the same, and some things very differently. I really like to see another person using blue painters tape and markers. All of my precision type reload ammo boxes get a strip of tape with all the details written on them. Love that tape in the reloading room especially because it doesn't leave any residue. We use a lot of the same tools also. The Hornady gauges were very helpful in finding the sweet spot when reloading for my bolt rifles. I got a MK12 MOD1 last year and finally after almost 10 months got the paperwork back for my suppressor. Now I'm going to spend the next couple days reading about how to get serious about reloading for it. I didn't really bother too much yet because I figured the suppressor would change all my data. I've loaded 223 for about 10yrs now, but never really aiming to make maximum accuracy loads. Mostly on a Dillon 650, and I usually process my brass by the 5 gallon bucket load. A lot of what I've learned reloading for my bolt guns carries over for my precision AR reloading plans although there are some differences. To each his own, but after seeing your process I highly recommend you picking up a Dillon super swager. The $90 or whatever it costs is completely worth it. Anyway I'll shut up now and ask my questions...

What ballistics program is that you're using on the ipad? I've been using shooter on my iphone and kinda want to try something else out.

Secondly under your press you have a trash can...Does that say "primers only no trash"? If so what's the purpose of keeping them in a separate can?

Thanks...keep up the good work!

 

[elfster1234]

LOL! I played a 70's porn star on a local cable show too! As for having OCD.... LOL, I'm the furthest thing from it. Trust me, I can be a lazy bastard at times. The one thing I do enjoy is shooting rifles, pistols, and reloading & it really does make me happy to spread the informative love. It would've been really nice to find a thread like this when I first started out = reason why I started it & for the fact I get so many PM questions... This thread might be long and drawn out, but it actually helps others with such questions rather than sending me a PM. I don't mind PM's tho! It is a great way to make friends online & I usually learn something myself.

As for the blue tape and labels & why so many peps think I have OCD, LOL!!..... Many of my friends come over to use my equipment & sometimes by themselves when I'm not around = main reason for the labels and stuff and to make sure they put my stuff back where they got it OR so they know what the heck it is.... especially for the trash. One thing that drives me nuts is when I can't find my tools. As for the metal and NOT plastic can under my press = for primers only & some of the primers in that can are actually damaged live primers..... not many, but I know there are a few live primers in that can & the reason why it is so tall and metal & I want to make sure my friends don't put paper in that can. The bottom of that metal can has about 2inches of decapped primers and some of them are damaged live primers. I figured it wouldn't hurt to make sure the can is metal just to be on the safe side with about 20lbs of powder in the cabinet right next to it. So I have 3 trash cans..... 1 metal for primers as listed above, 1 plastic can for bad brass that gets recycled, and 1 plastic can for actual trash.... BTW, I just recycled 6lbs of bad brass and got $13 bucks back! yeah! LOL

As for my ballistics program... I use an IPAD program that is actually called "ballistics advanced edition". I have more info on it listed right after the OP on page#1. For the money, it's an awesome program and has been spot on even with FPS info right out of reloading books as long as you have your "sight height" info entered correctly.


yes, Dillon super 600 swager is on my list of things to purchase... all in due time & when I can afford it... If I purchased everything that I "think" I need, then I would be flat broke.

Elfster, You have some serious mental health issues. Seek professional help. I'm not sure the OCD diagnosis other posters made really covers the depth of your problems. I feel pretty confident in my diagnosis as I once played a Psychologist on a local cable access show.

Seriously I really enjoyed your thread here. It's always interesting and informative for me to see how other people do things. We do a lot of things the same, and some things very differently. I really like to see another person using blue painters tape and markers. All of my precision type reload ammo boxes get a strip of tape with all the details written on them. Love that tape in the reloading room especially because it doesn't leave any residue. We use a lot of the same tools also. The Hornady gauges were very helpful in finding the sweet spot when reloading for my bolt rifles. I got a MK12 MOD1 last year and finally after almost 10 months got the paperwork back for my suppressor. Now I'm going to spend the next couple days reading about how to get serious about reloading for it. I didn't really bother too much yet because I figured the suppressor would change all my data. I've loaded 223 for about 10yrs now, but never really aiming to make maximum accuracy loads. Mostly on a Dillon 650, and I usually process my brass by the 5 gallon bucket load. A lot of what I've learned reloading for my bolt guns carries over for my precision AR reloading plans although there are some differences. To each his own, but after seeing your process I highly recommend you picking up a Dillon super swager. The $90 or whatever it costs is completely worth it. Anyway I'll shut up now and ask my questions...

What ballistics program is that you're using on the ipad? I've been using shooter on my iphone and kinda want to try something else out.

Secondly under your press you have a trash can...Does that say "primers only no trash"? If so what's the purpose of keeping them in a separate can?

Thanks...keep up the good work!

 

[elfster1234]

BAM! 1000pcs of lake city 5.56 brass! My AR's are having a little party right now! this should keep me busy for about the next 6,000 to 7,000 reloads. Lovin it...

 

[ptrlcop]

ELF, I would hardly consider shooting in wind a waste. Yes, it sucks for shooting tiny groups, but as far as being able to hit things it is invaluable. You think chasing bugholes is maddening, try chasing x rings. I like working groups too, only as a means to improve the ability to hit what you are aiming at.

PS, I think your horizontal dispersion is pretty minimal....can't blame the wind for anything other than its ability to get in your head.