My title is probably too long, I suck at the forum thing, any ways, I grew up hunting, shooting clay pigeons, and mainly owned bolt actions, got them to group 3 shots at 100 yards in an inch or 1.25..... Called it good, fast forward to now.... Bought my first ar15.... Way different accuracy..... On average with Hornady Frontier 68 grain hpbt, at 100 yards I shoot 1.75 inches..... Sometimes 1 inch, sometimes 2.5, but most groups are between 1 3/8 to 2 inches...... Win. Match 69 grain bthp, I can shoot a couple. 75 groups then turn around and shoot 2 inches but it averages more like 1.375 to 1.25 when factoring in those random 2 in. groups........ Shooting off magpul bipod, with bag in rear that I squeeze for height, gun is Ruger mpr 18inch barrel, 2 stage 4.5 lb trigger..... Vortex offset cantilever mount and vortex crossfire 2 3x9x40..... The scope doesn't adjust when I turn dials then all the sudden it jumps too far...... I dealt with this, today I was playing with hold overs and that caused me to shoot at 25 50 and my usual 100 yard..... 25 was kneeling using mag as a monopod..... Poi was 1.5 to 2 inches low...... 50 yards prone was right on? Should have been low right? Then shot at my zero that was always on (100 yards ) and it was 2 inches high! shot 3... 5 shot groups (I only shoot 5 shot groups now) all were standard 1.75 to 2 inches with same Frontier ammo...... Shot 2 more groups and they are back on the money....... What am I doing wrong? I try not to bug a bunch of people but I have read till I'm blue in the face and there is so much info about parralax, shadow? Cheekweld, shooting off mag, free recoil etc.... All that can apparantly change poi....... I'm ready to pull my hair out lol..... I almost bought a leupold today but thought I'd ask guys who can actually shoot what they think first..... Any help is appreciated, sorry to be so drawn out.
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Just joined, long time hunter but never seriously got into shooting until now, poi changes at 100 yards randomly, but groups
- Thread starter Chanceterrill
- Start date
Curious why you would use your mag as bipod instead of the Magpul you say you have, if its there, use it.
I would say you need to start over and sight your gun in properly, 2 inch groups are pretty bad unless you are shooting freehand. Once you get that sorted then you can start twisting dials but if your only shooting at a target at 100 yds you shouldn't need to be twisting anything.
It might also help if we know what kind of AR you are shooting, wild swings in quality on AR's depending upon builder mostly a sliding scale based on price point although not a universal truth.
I would say you need to start over and sight your gun in properly, 2 inch groups are pretty bad unless you are shooting freehand. Once you get that sorted then you can start twisting dials but if your only shooting at a target at 100 yds you shouldn't need to be twisting anything.
It might also help if we know what kind of AR you are shooting, wild swings in quality on AR's depending upon builder mostly a sliding scale based on price point although not a universal truth.
Well when hunting if sitting down, I use my knees for stability, I find I'm more stable with mag on my knee then my elbow..... Gun is Ruger mpr, basically it's a freefloated rifle length gas version of their ar556 but it also has 4.5 lb 2 stage trigger........
I have been reading that ar15s in general just arnt as accurate and that under 2 inches is basically good, that military ar's are 3 moa! As I said above I'm shooting under 1.5 with match ammo but I count every single group..... Alot of times it'll shoot 5/8 to 3/4. 5 shot groups at 100 yards.........
It's been right on the money this whole time with poi...... It's only when I tried shooting at different positions and distances and then returned to my bench at 100 yards that is was 2 inches high for 3 groups, then magically comes back down
Ar15 made by ruger, it's a ruger mpr.... 18 inch barrel, free floated, rifle gas, 4.5lb trigger 556 chamber, 3x9x40 vortex crossfire..... What what form issue could cause elevation issues? It does in general seem like my groups open up mainly top to bottom with occasional fliers off to the side....... And my groups usually have 3 shots touching then 2 that open it way up
It's really frustrating! I can shoot my buddies 243 and everytime I can print 5shot groups at 100 yards under an inch..... Usually they are 5/8 to 3/4 and when I do jerk a shot I know it, I'll call it....." I pulled low left etc.".
With the ar, it's like a surprise everytime I walk down to target! I'll think the groups gonna be great because everything felt perfect then find a 2 inch group! Or I'll think man I pulled a couple of those, n it'll be under an inch! I don't know if it's me or the scope or what but I've never had such unpredictable results
I usually only shoot targets at 100 off bench, just because it's all I have access to, would like to go farther out to 300 but gta find a place ...... Basically I'm a hunter, I want to shoot woodchucks at 300 yards with this gun....... Then I wanna head shoot a squirrel up close using holdover, then I wanna go shoot 5 shot groups at 100 yards at least moa or close to it nearly everytime
I guess I've always had low budget gear like savage 110, remington model 710 3006 and cheap scopes like Walmart Bushnell and Tasco...... But with our handloads, I could shoot that 3006 in inch groups at 100 yards almost religiously........ On those low budget scopes there is only one head position where you can get a clear picture.... Maybe that made me more consistent?
I thought it was awesome that this vortex let's me get a clear picture in multiple spots but maybe that is actually a curse?
How can moving your head position even change poi? How does parralax? I'm not even sure I know what parralax is! What is shadowing as well?
I thought it was awesome that this vortex let's me get a clear picture in multiple spots but maybe that is actually a curse?
How can moving your head position even change poi? How does parralax? I'm not even sure I know what parralax is! What is shadowing as well?
STOP using your magazine as a support. That is a sure way to get terrible shooting.
Try getting a 10 round mag for when you go to the range.
You might need to check that your scope is working, if adjustments have no effect then suddenly all catch up, you might want to send that back to vortex for warranty repair.
Try getting a 10 round mag for when you go to the range.
You might need to check that your scope is working, if adjustments have no effect then suddenly all catch up, you might want to send that back to vortex for warranty repair.
Well that's one of your issues right there.
If your scope isn't tracking then time to get rid of it! You get what you pay for, being honest.
I think you have several factors going on. Shooting form, use a Bipod and learn how to load it. Too many threads on here regarding shooting form etc.
Also you're gear. My AR's print sub MOA all the time, your rifle isn't well known as a tack driver... it's an affordable rifle. If you are after small varmint take a hard look at the Rock River Arms varmint series. They give you a 3/4" MOA guarantee. Hard to beat that.
I only use mag as support when sitting and shooting at closer distances....... Went squirrel hunting yesterday n missed 4...... So I went and experimented with holdovers and that when I found all this out..... Im zeroed at 100 yards and have been hitting consistently, when I shot prone off bipod at 50 I was right on the money which struck me as odd, it should have been like an inch low right? Go back to the bench at 100 and shot 3 groups that were all 2 inches high.... Shot 2 more that were back on the money...... What could have caused this?
Shooting form, rifle, a lot of factors. Looks like you're a very new shooter. Join Frank's online lessons, you will learn a lot! You should be dead on at 100 no matter what, if your rifle is printing above after shooting 50, something is off, like your scope isn't holding zero. Sounds like the scope needs to be returned and if my memory serves me, that scope is a very low entry scope... one I wouldn't use.
So if I get a better scope will that help? How does tracking affect poi if it's set it and forget it? I'm so frustrated at this point...... The gun will shoot 3/4 inch 5 shot groups then turn around and open up to 1. 75 when everything felt perfect.... Someone told me that is a characteristic of an average quality cold hammer forged barrel..... Which is what my gun has
First you stated your scope catches up once you dial, that is a big big concern, but you're going to trust it holds zero after it constantly shoots high, low or wherever it prints...
Parallax is also focusing the scope to the same plane as the target. If not you will think the cross hairs are on the target but they are not, it will cause you to off center hits etc. Terrible explanation I gave, but your scope is truly not in focus
So I was looking at new scopes, all I can spend is 500...... Looking at leupold fx freedom 4 to12 tri moa... I just don't have the money to get top of the line stuff though I wish I did..... I too thought it was the scope but I don't want to blame the gear if it's really just me being a terrible shot......
I start to think it's just me being a worthless shot but then I'll shoot my buddies super accurate gun and shoot under 3/4 everytime.... And then I'll do it with my ruger ar, but the next group open to 2 inches...... It's maddening.....
I really dont need to be some amazing shot, I would be happy if I could consistently get my gu. To shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards, and I'll likley never shoot farther then 300......i would like to be able to shoot squirrels at 10 to 50 yards, then shoot 1 inch groups at 100, and also be able to hit a ground hog at 300...... If I can do all those things I'll be happy
But I'm finding hitting a squirrel to be super difficult with this gun...... They don't give you long to shoot, they are small, move quick and I have to incorporate a holdover which appears to be different enough to miss if I miss judge yardage by 10 yards..... Ive always trained my brain to pull trigger when cross hairs are on squirrel...... Pretty much sight 22 in to 20 to. 50 yards and just aim dead on and drop them....
Trying to guess where 1.5 inches is for a hold over is tough...... Not really an ideal gun for squirrel lol. But I figured it would be great practice
Trying to guess where 1.5 inches is for a hold over is tough...... Not really an ideal gun for squirrel lol. But I figured it would be great practice
Sorry for so many posts and so much information, I'm super OCD and this stuff has prevented me from sleeping the last 2 nights...... I never knew there was so much to shooting, Ive been shooting for 20 plus years and always just hunted and shot steel or clay every now and then......bench shooting was only to sight in..
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I'll try to focus this to one question at a time....... Would it be a good idea to get a leupold vx freedom 4 to 12 tri moa over my current 3x9x40 crossfire 2
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I'll try to focus this to one question at a time....... Would it be a good idea to get a leupold vx freedom 4 to 12 tri moa over my current 3x9x40 crossfire 2
I'm going to go shoot again today and see if loading the bipod versus not loading it causes point of impact shift, then I'm going to do the same with moving my head forward and backward and see if that's causing it, then I'm going to see if pushing my cheek into the stock harder is causing my random left
Well if you are planning on eating them and you are using an AR, better plan on head shots.
There is a difference better OCD/neuroticism and being meticulous. The former being for old women. Be meticulous but remember I have seen damn good shooters pick up a crap gun and make it shoot. Improving your fundamentals is key.
Just figure out what you can afford and work from there. Free float the rail and then get some better glass. Do yourself a favor and switch to MRAD/Mils now.
Real is already free floated, I have thought about buying a Criterion Barrel and maybe that would help, but it's just weird to me to think the barrels to blame when he can shoot five shots in a 5/8 group..... I called Krieger and they said budget cold hammer-forged barrels do exhibit this Behavior but I just don't want to be blaming my gear for my issues if that's the case
Well first off ammo choice will make or break usually. That said, likely the worst issue is you. Start there.
First off I would ditch the bipod for testing. Go with sand bags. Get the rifle stabilized. Then make sure you are completely comfortable. Some folks hold their scope. I am not a fan of this. Hold the butt with your off hand.
Get comfortable and have a natural point of aim. Like you and the crosshair could stay there all day if need be. Does the crosshair want to pull off the target if you release the rifle a bit. Adjust so it doesn’t.
Also, I shoot one round at a time when with an AR. Less machine run time right after the shot.
Next do some dry fire practice before grouping. Get used to that trigger and make sure you are not flinching. Follow through after the shot making sure you are still on the target.
Don’t hold your breath. Become one with your breathing. Follow its rhythm. In the Buddhist monastery they taught me to release the arrow at the bottom of a smooth long exhale.........That is where I loose the bullet.
I have had/have Criterion barrels and they all shoot sub .5 mo with hand-loads. I think they are a great value.
@Chanceterrill - I may have missed it....was reading the thread in a hurry....but didn't you say that when dialing up, your reticle takes jumps...that is, it doesn't seem to smoothly depress as you add elevation on the turret?
If so (and I may be way off base), are you sure you didn't over torque the rings on the tube and maybe causing bind in the internals? Or, that the erector is just fucked up and binding and it needs to go back to Vortex.
Forgive me if I haven't followed all of this accurately.
Cheers
If so (and I may be way off base), are you sure you didn't over torque the rings on the tube and maybe causing bind in the internals? Or, that the erector is just fucked up and binding and it needs to go back to Vortex.
Forgive me if I haven't followed all of this accurately.
Cheers
Good catch. Yea I skimmed the thread too. If this is correct, then yes get that glass fixed.
Well I have been at this a while but learn something new every day. @lowlight the owner of this forum has a paid “supporter” program here that gets you access to his online training for $20 month. He also teaches classes.
Exactly, in most cases the caps should be 15-18 INCH lbs (**not foot lbs). As @johnnyvw says, check that before calling Vortex. Might well fix that jump. If you don’t have a torque wrench for your firearms, now is the time to buy one.
And don't get a cheap one...personally I like Fix-it-stick torque limiters and bought one of their kits, added a couple of limiters with values I also wanted, and have never regretted this purchase even a little bit. I have a lot of confidence in the discreet value torque limiters.
Cheers
Update I shot again today and paid very close attention for my cheek pressures and distance from the scope and found that I sometimes in moving my head closer or further away, in addition to that the more I'm focusing the harder I'm smashing my cheek into the stock and the Tighter and squeezing the pistol grip, I checked and that does raise my point of impact.
I started being more consistent and things went back to normal however that Hornady Frontier ammo will shoot all over the place....... Tried some seirra competition 77 grain matchking, my worst group was 1 1/8 inches at 100........ 1 5 shot group was 5/8". One was 3/4" and one was 15/16......averaging sub moa...... Poi was high and left everytime and super consistent (first time shooting this stuff). So I think a big part of this is ammo.
I shot the Frontier Hornady stuff (that's what I'm sighted in for) from 100 then 50 then 25 and it's hehsning like it should...... 100 is on, 50 is. 75 low, and 25 is 1.5" low
I was so frustrated yesterday I'm sure that's what was going on with the PO I shift I was pushing my face super hard into the stock and squeezing the grip really hard without realizing it, and also the cheap ammo just sucks, with the Sierra Factory ammo, 5 shot groups are averaging sub-moa at a hundred yards with the same poi everytime....... That said I do want to buy a leupold scope...... It's so much clearer and brighter and I want to get a 4 to 12 instead of my 3 to 9..... I can barely see the black diamond on orange shooting spot with the 3x9 crossfire, no way that's helping my accuracy.
So the 2 scopes im looking at are both
4 x12x40 tri moa reticle leupold vx freedom series....... One is an inch tube with no parralax adj for 400, the other is 30mm with parralax adj. And is 500..... But because it's 30mm I'll have to buy another 100 dollar mount because mines 1 inch.
So how important is parralax from 0 to 300 yards? Is it worth 200 more dollars?
So the 2 scopes im looking at are both
4 x12x40 tri moa reticle leupold vx freedom series....... One is an inch tube with no parralax adj for 400, the other is 30mm with parralax adj. And is 500..... But because it's 30mm I'll have to buy another 100 dollar mount because mines 1 inch.
So how important is parralax from 0 to 300 yards? Is it worth 200 more dollars?
I think I did exactly this, I've since loosened them and it still doesn't Track quite right..... Vortex said they'll SEnd me a label to get it fixed for free, I'll put it on my old bolt action savage 3030 when I get it back but before i send it in I'm gonna buy a leupold vx freedom to put on the ruger ar it's on now....i just have to decide whether I want to get the model with parralax adjustment or the one without...... Because the one with is 30mm ill have to buy another mount, so in my case, having parralax adjustment is gonna cost 200 bucks...... W/o parralax is 400, with parralax and the necessary mount is 600 ......the gun and scope will be used for ground hogs, squirrels, and small groups off a bench at ranges 0 to 300 yards...... For that application, is parralax worth the extra 200 $?
There is a lot you posted in this thread. What two scopes are you referring to? It’s faster for you to post them.
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I'd slow down just a touch and make sure you get the best your budget can afford for the application. That may well be the leupold you are talking about but there's lots of options out there.
You can also extend your buying power by buying a used scope on the px. (Just make sure the person has good feedback )
Scopes are boyh leupold vx freedom 4 x 12 40mm objective....... One is inch tube and has no parralax adjustment and cost 400...... The other is 30mm tube and has parralax adjustment and costs 500......... My scope mount is inch already, ....... I really want the one with parralax adj. but I will have to buy a new mount for the 30mm tube...... This makes it 600...... So 200 more for having parralax....... I'll be shooting at small targets from 300 yards and in, do I need the parralax? Is it worth 200?
Scopes are boyh leupold vx freedom 4 x 12 40mm objective....... One is inch tube and has no parralax adjustment and cost 400...... The other is 30mm tube and has parralax adjustment and costs 500......... My scope mount is inch already, ....... I really want the one with parralax adj. but I will have to buy a new mount for the 30mm tube...... This makes it 600...... So 200 more for having parralax....... I'll be shooting at small targets from 300 yards and in, do I need the parralax? Is it worth 200?
I personally like a parallax adjustment but for 300 yards it probably isn’t a necessity. Fixed parallax scopes are usually set at 100-150 yards if I remember correctly.
I am not familiar with those two scopes so I can’t give you an opinion otherwise.
That said cheap scopes usually perform like cheap scopes. Also, will they put up with the pounding of an AR? I have been told they are hard on scopes.
An SWFA fixed 10 would be a good choice. They are built like a tank. You are looking at 30 mm tube though. Sell the mount you have, to recoup some $$. Again, I would urge you to move to MRAD instead of MOA now. As a new shooter it is easier and you’ll thank me down the road.
Well, like with shooting, slow down. And break your posts up into small snippets of thought i.e. small paragraphs. Each post has an edit button. Edit when necessary. This isn’t the national archives so do what you need to do.
Also bullet points are good for listing things
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