KAC SR25 challenge!!!

[tacops1]

My LWRC CSASS (actual CSASS edition vs REPR MK2) was a 2 MOA gun on a good day. Beautifully built, but didn't run very well. Had to send it in with cycling issues and just got tired of it. Sold it at a huge loss and kept the LMT. I just shot a 6x5 the other day with it, but haven't measured the groups. Most were sub MOA, and I think one might even had been .5
I wish I could afford an SR25, and if the opportunity presents itself I might, but in the meantime, my poverty-KAC is my LMT.

As I have finally discovered ...great price and performance go with a Wilson Super Sniper

 

[LANCER]

I can easily take that $100.00 with my setup as long as:

1. I can use an LMT
2. Groups have to be 1 shot groups (I get 0.0001 MOA 1-shot groups all day long)
3. No video
4. No photos

 

[Submarine Sharpshooter]

The standard military ones are less than stellar but the SOF ones are pretty legit.

As far as I could tell, any SOF SR-25 I saw (2014-2016 / 2018) started life as an M110 or was an as-issued M110. I was never issued one but shot more than a few at the range and had no complaints other than the 90s throwback stock and outrageously long can. Solid reliability and hit man sized silhouettes as far as any non machine gun 7.62 is going to.

SOF is a big place but there’s my sample size of one contribution.

 

[tlr16]

I own one but yet to shoot it. I have built bolt guns that I know will preform. I bought it cause I sold a M82.

 

[Huskydriver]

I own one but yet to shoot it. I have built bolt guns that I know will preform. I bought it cause I sold a M82.

 

[tlr16]

View attachment 7690540

Sorry I was deployed got hurt and then had shoulder surgery now possibly back shoulder.

 

[DavidAR10]

B-Series ARMALITE Double Hand-Lapped C-L'd 20" AR-10A4.

It's fancier younger brother beat the piss out of the M-110 Survey..

Is Kevin allowed to talk about it... by now?

I'll ask one fracking MOAR time...
Kevin [from the land of buying milk in a bag] doesn't have a min10yr jail and/or $100K/Offense confidential information clause [worth a rat's sphincter] hanging over his ass from the M110 survey. {Kevin, I ab-so-fuckin-lutely hope that you are alive and wealthy in monies and friends}

He knows the what rifle/s beat the piss out of the KAC model and I wish he would type/speak out.
AR-10? THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.

 

[GhostFace]

Which Kevin are you talking about? Boland?

 

[DavidAR10]

Which Kevin are you talking about? Boland?

Hi guy!!! I don't remember ever knowing his last name.
He was HSLD in the sand box and then became employed by KAC.
He gave info on the M110 Survey/Trials, right here in River City (SH), while
not naming names in the critical areas of failure.
Kevin was always professional, courteous, even kind to SH jerks... like me.
Kevin seemed to appreciate the ARMALITE entry.

edit DABNABIT: That is a funny thread that I missed.

 

[GhostFace]

Yeah I remember he had one or two posts kinda hinting that way but that’s why I asked if it were him.

 

[mjmd11]

You may be butthurt because you spent damn near $5k on a gun that is probably minute of man accurate at 100 yards, when you could have easily gotten nearly the same results from a $600 PSA10. Hell even SCAR's are more accurate. You can claim reliability all you like, but there's WAY cheaper guns that are every bit as reliable. Kinda hard to flex when you spent all that on a crap gun (compared to others at the price point).

more than 1 moa, fyi , especially after 500+ rounds

 

[mjmd11]

The M110 isn't a SOF gun. It's a P2 big Army program of record. SOF units are MTOE'd their service components standard weapons, vehicles and equipment and use their SOCOM P2 funds for other equipment solutions. SOF(to use a general term, but one organization in particular) helped R Knight develop the SR25 through iterations for 10 - 20yrs before the M110 came around. I have been issued, used in combat for 19yrs in GWOT, the SR25, the M110, the M24, the SPR, the MK13, and the M2010. In various MODs and iterations. All those guns are over-hyped in my opinion. I was always surprised by how poorly the SR25's I've had shot and just assumed it was me. But I also now realize my naive expectations were unrealistic. I just took the hype as truth. They shot about 1-1.5 moa and it was"good enough". M110 was a complete debacle and the worse version of the SR25 I've seen. It loosens up after a thousand or so rounds to a level of inaccuracy that is completely unacceptable. Like 3 to 4 moa. It doesn't deal with heat well at all and had issues with triggers letting go. They would begin to double tap when they aged. The fit on the massive can required the shooter to "seat" it by shooting 20 to 30rds to "seal" it with carbon. And we constantly break bolts because M118LR was designed for bolt guns and on top of that it has gotten on the average of 50fps faster over the last 10 years. It's bad enough that we all realized we needed a better sniper rifle and procurement for a new gun resumed before the M110 had been around for a decade. The HK CSASS was selected and the Army just decided not to fund it in the end and so it is unfielded. But TACOM did end the maintenance program for the M110 bc it is no longer the program of record. So we have a broke-dick sniper rifle that units have to pay for maintenance, unforecasted, out of annual O&M money (unit budgets). Meanwhile the last round of COVID stimulus has bumped the national debt to a level at which the interest exceeds the DOD Defense budget. For the first time in history. So this situation isn't getting any better. The military is taking a huge bath to try to come up with as much money as possible to mitigate the national debt.

Everyone of those guns I mentioned are a crude and "industrial" grade compared to the civilian equivalent. They get the job done but they are by no means perfect. They break on guys in combat, have been victim of the technology available of the time, that was affordable at a mass procurement level, and get skull-dragged over mud walls. When I see civilians shelling out $5K for an M24 I throw up in my mouth. To each their own I guess.

I have always been perplexed by the fascination on invincible reliability by civilians. To me it's a myth. No gun will meet this and we account for this through the employment of interlocking sectors of fire, mutually supporting teams, preparatory fires, primary and secondary weapons, and in general over-matching your opponent so it doesn't come down to a "fair", 1:1 fight. Combat Marksmanship and Advanced Urban Combat are riddled with failure drills, weapon transitions, and the use of cover for just this reason. TT&Ps make use of contingencies, backups, redundancies, and PACE plans. If you read gun forums or watch youtube videos you see people constantly talk about "trusting their lives" to such and such gun. Just like folks at matches talk about the most important thing is safety. And then you know in the back of your head that thousands of guys spent two decades with poorer performing guns, getting flagged by jundi's every night, chasing bangs and charges, taking a huge buffet of vaccines... I think much of what you see is overblown, based on the perception of reality. I would agree, a person can get a lot done with 1-1.5moa and a certain amount of reliability is required. The SR25's were reliable. They were better guns than the M110's, but no way I'd spend the money on one. But I'm not sentimental and don't really get into "ownership".

+1

 

[GUNNER10]

The M110 isn't a SOF gun. It's a P2 big Army program of record. SOF units are MTOE'd their service components standard weapons, vehicles and equipment and use their SOCOM P2 funds for other equipment solutions. SOF(to use a general term, but one organization in particular) helped R Knight develop the SR25 through iterations for 10 - 20yrs before the M110 came around. I have been issued, used in combat for 19yrs in GWOT, the SR25, the M110, the M24, the SPR, the MK13, and the M2010. In various MODs and iterations. All those guns are over-hyped in my opinion. I was always surprised by how poorly the SR25's I've had shot and just assumed it was me. But I also now realize my naive expectations were unrealistic. I just took the hype as truth. They shot about 1-1.5 moa and it was"good enough". M110 was a complete debacle and the worse version of the SR25 I've seen. It loosens up after a thousand or so rounds to a level of inaccuracy that is completely unacceptable. Like 3 to 4 moa. It doesn't deal with heat well at all and had issues with triggers letting go. They would begin to double tap when they aged. The fit on the massive can required the shooter to "seat" it by shooting 20 to 30rds to "seal" it with carbon. And we constantly break bolts because M118LR was designed for bolt guns and on top of that it has gotten on the average of 50fps faster over the last 10 years. It's bad enough that we all realized we needed a better sniper rifle and procurement for a new gun resumed before the M110 had been around for a decade. The HK CSASS was selected and the Army just decided not to fund it in the end and so it is unfielded. But TACOM did end the maintenance program for the M110 bc it is no longer the program of record. So we have a broke-dick sniper rifle that units have to pay for maintenance, unforecasted, out of annual O&M money (unit budgets). Meanwhile the last round of COVID stimulus has bumped the national debt to a level at which the interest exceeds the DOD Defense budget. For the first time in history. So this situation isn't getting any better. The military is taking a huge bath to try to come up with as much money as possible to mitigate the national debt.

Everyone of those guns I mentioned are a crude and "industrial" grade compared to the civilian equivalent. They get the job done but they are by no means perfect. They break on guys in combat, have been victim of the technology available of the time, that was affordable at a mass procurement level, and get skull-dragged over mud walls. When I see civilians shelling out $5K for an M24 I throw up in my mouth. To each their own I guess.

I have always been perplexed by the fascination on invincible reliability by civilians. To me it's a myth. No gun will meet this and we account for this through the employment of interlocking sectors of fire, mutually supporting teams, preparatory fires, primary and secondary weapons, and in general over-matching your opponent so it doesn't come down to a "fair", 1:1 fight. Combat Marksmanship and Advanced Urban Combat are riddled with failure drills, weapon transitions, and the use of cover for just this reason. TT&Ps make use of contingencies, backups, redundancies, and PACE plans. If you read gun forums or watch youtube videos you see people constantly talk about "trusting their lives" to such and such gun. Just like folks at matches talk about the most important thing is safety. And then you know in the back of your head that thousands of guys spent two decades with poorer performing guns, getting flagged by jundi's every night, chasing bangs and charges, taking a huge buffet of vaccines... I think much of what you see is overblown, based on the perception of reality. I would agree, a person can get a lot done with 1-1.5moa and a certain amount of reliability is required. The SR25's were reliable. They were better guns than the M110's, but no way I'd spend the money on one. But I'm not sentimental and don't really get into "ownership".

Great post,

I think a lot the down range performance or lack there of, can really be attributed to a couple theme that seem to constantly come up year after year.

I think awkward program requirements written into the RFP's have vendors submitting weapons that have the best chance to beat the game.. The guns that beat the game, not necessary the best examples of that weapon system.

I don't want to say that m110 was obsolete but by the time it was fielded, KAC had pretty much two or three generations past what Big Army had requested and honestly was just a more mature design. Something similar happened with the Marines converting their IAR to their infantry service rifle. As as result, they end up with pretty much the heaviest service rifle, with a 25 year old can that's pretty much more expensive than any of its peers.

In both of these cases, I think something like the SR25 ACC/APR, or URGI would have been been far better choices but it is what it is. While these are better designs, I am not sure how much better they would fare under big Army maintenance trends.

I also think that the maintenance issues that you bring up are a major issue, not just in small arms but across the board, we have mission systems that really should of be phased out years ago, and we are still trying to get vendors to refurbish parts because certain system components are just not made anymore. Its absurd that we need to send stuff back to the vendor and not expect to see that component back for at least 6 months, Motor T has always been a nightmare.

The shit show that we just seen in Kabul really personifies where we are at at this point. Everything is a shit show and noting makes any god damn sense. Why does it take a God damn miracle to ship something that larger than a water box to Iraq, and why does it take 45 days to ship something to another country 4 hours away. Why is it that I can ship a laptop via usps to one camp in Iraq, but not to another. Why does it take 72 hours to get a customs appointment to send shit back to the states via mil air when the customs section just surfs their phones all day. Why get a maintenance contract to service air conditioners in the hottest region on Earth when we can just replace compressors once they fail?

So everything that you mentioned about small arm performance down range does not surprise me one bit.

We have experienced so much God Damn mission creep that 90 percent of our day is dedicated to shit that has nothing to do with why we are here.

I think that high speed units have a better ability to side step alot of these issues, as they just have more funding available to accomplish their mission.

 

[Raptorman2014]

Shot this today testing ammo. It didn't like the 143gr ELDX or 130gr Bergers.

 

[Mj30wilson900]

Shot this today testing ammo. It didn't like the 143gr ELDX or 130gr Bergers.

Mine likes Norma match target in 143gr

 

[bigjake83]

I love how this thread keeps on keeping on...lol

 

[x248716x]

seems the PSA Sabre AR-10, billet, has the SR-25 slant-cut receivers. Challenge to the SR-25?

I'm gonna go hide behind the brick wall now.

 

[TheOE800]

Shot this today testing ammo. It didn't like the 143gr ELDX or 130gr Bergers.

That’s a shame I have a ton of 130 FGMM and other 130 class.

 

[Budrichard]

I ordered this SR25 LightWeight Match directly from KAC at the start of the Afgan War when I learned that that the Navy was using this rifle. Opted not to spend the money on the Seal Package which was right around $7K if I remember correctly. Cost was right around $3500 with rings, cleaning rod and 6 20rnd mags.
About 6 months for delivery and if you look at the markings, the receiver came right off the line with the SEAL rifles because of the spacing for the missing M11 Mod 0 marking.
No Obermeyer barrel and no threading.
Obermeyer is quite close to me and If I could shoot a better barrel, no problem.
I am not a Sniper but but bolt gun shooter and 22lr Match Competition Shooter and wanted to have a state of the art Semi at that time.
Rifle has about 100 rounds through it up to a little while ago when I decided to use our new 200yd range with the rifle.
Group shown is the first 3 rnd group shot.
Now at this time with the plethora of Semi’s available, I probably could find a-few that would shoot for me but this gun has not had a single failure.
I could not meet the Initial Challenge but it’s close enough for me!
-Richard

 

[Zoomie]

In 2010 at SOFIC Kevin B from KAC used an M110/EM scoped with an CQBSS to put a 5 shot/167gr Lapua @ 91.44 meters into a .451 grouping. He says he's not a great shot. He lies.

According to KAC and some others, Army wasn't keeping up with the maintenance schedules for the early M110's causing some of the issues. Hard to believe, I know.

Several additional improvements for the M110 were delayed in the acquisition pipeline and hence didn't make it to the field for most units. Those changes were all recommended by KAC to improve the platform. But alas, they didn't get approved and installed until much later versions.

 

[FALex]

Shot this today testing ammo. It didn't like the 143gr ELDX or 130gr Bergers.

For the obscene amount of cash you could get for that rifle, I’d sell it and buy a JP LRI. After that, you’d have an extremely accurate rifle, but the downside is that you’d only have like 35,000.00 left…

 

[BCP]

seems the PSA Sabre AR-10, billet, has the SR-25 slant-cut receivers. Challenge to the SR-25?

I'm gonna go hide behind the brick wall now.

716i is the SR25 carbine for the poors

For the obscene amount of cash you could get for that rifle, I’d sell it and buy a JP LRI. After that, you’d have an extremely accurate rifle, but the downside is that you’d only have like 35,000.00 left…

I don't think anyone buying these rifles cares about the cost tbh

 

[TheOE800]

For the obscene amount of cash you could get for that rifle, I’d sell it and buy a JP LRI. After that, you’d have an extremely accurate rifle, but the downside is that you’d only have like 35,000.00 left…

Eh, there is/was in our PX for $15K which is a little silly. The uppers have resold for $7-9K and are on Gunbroker already due to the recent availability.

 

[Raptorman2014]

I was also told this by KAC as well.... 1.5 MOA is inspec.

 

[bigjake83]

I was also told this by KAC as well.... 1.5 MOA is inspec.

View attachment 8181546

Ewwwww....

 

[BCP]

In 2010 at SOFIC Kevin B from KAC used an M110/EM scoped with an CQBSS to put a 5 shot/167gr Lapua @ 91.44 meters into a .451 grouping. He says he's not a great shot. He lies.

According to KAC and some others, Army wasn't keeping up with the maintenance schedules for the early M110's causing some of the issues. Hard to believe, I know.

Several additional improvements for the M110 were delayed in the acquisition pipeline and hence didn't make it to the field for most units. Those changes were all recommended by KAC to improve the platform. But alas, they didn't get approved and installed until much later versions.

Back when he posted on this forum he also had data for that same rifle out to 800 yards that was very good.

 

[Jory45acp]

I bought a Knight's SR-25 RAS Match right when the announcement came out they had won the military contract and sales to the general public were sup[posed to pause. It is an amazing Sub MOA rifle with handloads. I bought it new and with everything that happens in life after about 125 rds it went in to the safe only to live in the dark ever since. I think about selling it sometimes but I wonder if I'll ever get around to it again. It would be interesting to know it's market value.

 

[Budrichard]

Market Value is only determined when money changes hands despite what Valuation Guides tell you.
-Richard
BTW, Gun Broker past sales information can bea good indicator
Nice rifle, 24” barrel I think.

 

[91Eunozs]

… It's like taking a Porsche and a off-road 4x4 and saying the Porsche is superior because its top speed is higher; thats great, what happens when theres no paved road? …

I got you bro…

 

[Budrichard]

Here is my C4S that readily goes out in the snow and somewhat off road!
SnowCross at Road America.

 

[TheGerman]

I got you bro…

View attachment 8183134

Technically you could have posted a Panther tank too

 

[TheGerman]

You dickshits also need to remember a few things.

The M110 was built for .mil use and the MOA 'guarantee' is based on the spec for acceptance. It's the same with the MK12.

They don't give a shit about .25 MOA or whatever because when you look at the exterior and terminal ballistics of the M118 round and the typical target size, you will quickly figure out that 1.5 MOA isn't a limiting factor at all.

However, please continue jerking each other off over the one time you shot a 'bughole' by sheer cone of accuracy luck and your rifle is now much bettererer.

But what do I know? I totally died and am typing from the great porta shitter in the sky from the time I was using a M110 and Mk12.

 

[thedude824]

I had to read through this whole thread to actually BELIEVE that people think ownership of a 5k rifle is not only impressive, but qualifies one to label all others as "poors". Its just sad. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Zoomie]

"You dickshits also need to remember a few things.

The M110 was built for .mil use and the MOA 'guarantee' is based on the spec for acceptance. It's the same with the MK12..."

Please don't be logical, and add material facts to the conversation which are pertinent to the weapons platform and its stated task. It's scaring the children. Thank you.

 

[BCP]

I got you bro…

Lots of people don't know they won the Dakar with a 911:

Also I still say my 716i is the SR25 for the poors

 

[scharfschutze762]

716I for Poors and Third world.

 

[TheGerman]

I had to read through this whole thread to actually BELIEVE that people think ownership of a 5k rifle is not only impressive, but qualifies one to label all others as "poors". Its just sad. I'll just leave it at that.

Well I have a $30k rifle too.

So now there's a whole new level of poors.

 

[TheGerman]

Please don't be logical, and add material facts to the conversation which are pertinent to the weapons platform and its stated task. It's scaring the children. Thank you.

I apologize.

 

[BCP]

716I for Poors and Third world.

I'll see your 40K $$$ SR25 deployment kit in the go-faster FDE finish packed in a neat guilded box and I'll raise you 80k screaming indians with budget sig rifles lol.

 

[ignitionSoldier]

This thread is legendary.

 

[TheOE800]

I had to read through this whole thread to actually BELIEVE that people think ownership of a 5k rifle is not only impressive, but qualifies one to label all others as "poors". Its just sad. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[ut755ln]

I just don't get the mad love for KAC.

 

[ignitionSoldier]

I just don't get the mad love for KAC.

I don't know about the SR25, but the SR15 is one hell of a rifle. It is head and shoulders above other 5.56 NATO AR15s (other than LMTs) based on the gas system improvements and improved reliability bolt alone. So I get why people like KAC rifles, but price you can realistically get them for versus the value is where some draw the line. Paying 4000 for an SR15 is insane to me. Might not be so for others.

 

[TheGerman]

I just don't get the mad love for KAC.

 

[Jsp556]

I just don't get the mad love for KAC.

There are rules in Condecending Club. Rule #1 is pretty complicated. I’d explain it but I’m not sure you’d understand.

 

[ut755ln]

I don't know about the SR25, but the SR15 is one hell of a rifle. It is head and shoulders above other 5.56 NATO AR15s (other than LMTs) based on the gas system improvements and improved reliability bolt alone. So I get why people like KAC rifles, but price you can realistically get them for versus the value is where some draw the line. Paying 4000 for an SR15 is insane to me. Might not be so for others.

I had one and sold it, I did not notice better anything. I did have an issue with it and found out you need a special tool to remove the handguard. My particular rifle proved to be less reliable when I was running cheap (not milspec) ammo through it. I did not notice it to be particularly soft shooting compared to any other AR.

 

[ignitionSoldier]

I had one and sold it, I did not notice better anything. I did have an issue with it and found out you need a special tool to remove the handguard. My particular rifle proved to be less reliable when I was running cheap (not milspec) ammo through it. I did not notice it to be particularly soft shooting compared to any other AR.

I believe you about the cheap ammo. It's definitely designed to run milspec ammo. And so it is not gassed to run cheap underpowered ammunition. The improved reliability bolt refers to the strength of the bolt itself. Many milspec AR bolts will fail well before an SR15 bolt. Now whether you need that kind of durability and reliability is up to the end user.

 

[TheOE800]

My particular rifle proved to be less reliable when I was running cheap (not milspec) ammo through it.

This is why we can’t have nice things.

 

[ut755ln]

This is why we can’t have nice things.

Not really, my DD MK18 runs everything. I like to call it reliable/

 

[Jsp556]

Run 87 octane gas in a car that needs 93. Same difference