Rifle Scopes Kahles 624i problem/issue. Advice please.

[farmer7]

Received my K624i yesterday and mounted it up and took it out today to zero/test/play. I wanted to do a tall target test to verify the click values. So I very carefully measured on a tall piece of whiteboard intervals of 18" on a plumbed vertical line and also hung my steel measuring tape vertically down the side to do some checks.

Before I fired a shot I could see the reticle was a good bit out. (I had measured 100 yards carefully with a surveyors tape and double checked with the laser) Three feet measured 9.6 mils equating to 104.17 yards. Four feet measured 12.8 mils equating to 104.17 yards. One metre measured 10.5 mils equating to 104.15 yards.

Having zeroed beforehand I start to test the clicks. Shot at the bottom spot at 100 yards to verify, bang on. Dialled up 5 mils and my group was 19 inches high instead of 18 inches, dialled up another 5 mils which had the centre of my group 37.75 inches high instead of 36 inches. Unfortunately I cant reach 15 yet as still waiting for my 20 moa base.

All three groups were under 0.5moa so accurate measurements to centre of the group was easy. Looking through the scope the clicks match the reticle fine but it means I would have to add a correction factor to my ballistic calculator. Easy enough, but accurate milling wont be possible. I was just very surprised to see such an error. Two of my other cheaper scopes have come up fine on testing.

Just wondered what the opinion here would be? Keep it and apply a correction factor or send it back? I purposely ordered the MSR reticle specifically for accurate milling which I think is now not even usable.eg. Target size of one metre measuring 1.25 mils = 800 metres. My scope would show the same size target as 764 metres. Quite a difference.

Any advice or opinions welcomed. I did notice at least one other case of a similar problem with the Kahles K624i here on the hide. Just want to hear what people recommend, keep it and deal with it or send it back. What is an acceptable error?

 

[270Win]

was this a gen 2 scope and did you buy it new or used or as a demo model... where did you buy it from... 4% error seems too much to be acceptable

 

[farmer7]

Yes its a Gen 2, bought new here in the UK.

 

[270Win]

if the target was indeed 100 yards from the scope then a 1 yard tall target should read exactly 10 mils.. so make sure you didn't confused meters and yards

 

[farmer7]

if the target was indeed 100 yards from the scope then a 1 yard tall target should read exactly 10 mils.. so make sure you didn't confused meters and yards

Yup I measured it precisely as 300 feet and also had a steel tape on the target and 3 feet on that equaled 9.6 mils on the reticle.

 

[270Win]

too much error... unacceptable

 

[farmer7]

too much error... unacceptable

That was my initial feeling but just wanted to hear what others thought. Thanks.

 

[270Win]

just my opinion I am hardly an expert unlike most other posters here but for me... no go

 

[varmint slayer]

I understand the adjustments being off but the reticle and the adjustments both off and off the same amount? Sounds like you are doing something wrong.

 

[dumbbell]

I thought I had your same problem with my kahles. After 're running the test and shooting it out to distance, I figured out the problem was my zero and being exactly 300ft to the scope turret. After that, I was less than 1%. I'm not saying I know you are wrong, I am just saying that I ended up being wrong when I encountered this. Good luck

 

[270Win]

I would take a range finder that was proven to be accurate and double check the distance... Also try it a 100 feet and see if you get 10 mils on a target 1 foot tall

 

[farmer7]

Thanks for the input guys. Pretty sure my distance was ok. I measured it twice with the tape to double check after seeing the discrepancy in the reticle. Just to double check I used my Swarovski laser as well, I know accuracy is advertised at +/-1 yard but at the point where it measured 100 instead of 99 more or less tied in with where my rifle was setup after measuring with the tape.

As for the reticle and clicks matching, I don't know how they are assembled and calibrated or what is an acceptable error. But they do certainly appear to match up.

 

[Mr.T]

You are not the only one with QC problems with new Khales ,my budy and i tested his brand nev gen2 with MSR reticle prior to entering a tactical competition and using the Litz tall test Khales tracked around 10% off ,it was dialing 10% more elevation than in should ,we made a corected dope card for that competiton ,but after that scope went back for repair we will see how it works one he gets it back from the factory.

 

[farmer7]

You are not the only one with QC problems with new Khales ,my budy and i tested his brand nev gen2 with MSR reticle prior to entering a tactical competition and using the Litz tall test Khales tracked around 10% off ,it was dialing 10% more elevation than in should ,we made a corected dope card for that competiton ,but after that scope went back for repair we will see how it works one he gets it back from the factory.

Thats interesting mines a gen2 with MSR as well. How long was he told he'd have to wait?

 

[TRAC]

So your click value is ~0.10486 , 4.8 % off at first test , if the error is constant you can live with it but for me seems like you get 1% difference at every 10 MILS (0.10555 click value at 10 MIL and 0.10486 at 20 MIL) in this case a simple click correction on ballistic solver will not put you on perfect tracks .
Please try also to do a test downwards , from top to bottom of the target , broke the scope, turn the knobs 100 times then test again ...over 4% error is not going to disappear after but at least you will know you did all you can to decide if is broken or not.

Good luck

 

[Mr.T]

He sent it back to the dealer that then sent it to factory in mid July but as you have vacation time in August in most of Europe i wouldn't hold my breath on anything getting done before September

 

[farmer7]

Couple of pictures through some other mil-dot reticles, couple are sideways as they were attached to rifles and couldn't get my camera behind them in vertical. As far as I can see all the others are reading around 3.6-3.65 mils across the white part of the window apart from no.1. (White edge to white edge)

 

[RyeDaddy]

I concur with your findings in the pics. The Kahles measures the window at 3.55-ish whereas the others are 3.65, I'd send it back.

This is what has scared me away from Kahles. Lots of odd reports of small problems that I don't think should make it out of QC in a $3k scope, and for service it has to go across the ocean. Not trying to bash, but it is troubling.

 

[powereng]

I had the same issue with mine, posted here: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...es/244819-tall-target-test-check-my-math.html

Ten week turn around time. Scope has been flawless ever since. I would highly suggest sending it back.

 

[JL]

Couple of pictures through some other mil-dot reticles, couple are sideways as they were attached to rifles and couldn't get my camera behind them in vertical. As far as I can see all the others are reading around 3.6-3.65 mils across the white part of the window apart from no.1.

View attachment 46657View attachment 46658View attachment 46659View attachment 46660View attachment 46661

You mean height of plain window glass *inside* frame, horizontally center?

I got more like 3.65-3.7mrad with your Kahles photo (edit bigger image)

 

[farmer7]

You mean height of plain window glass *inside* frame, horizontally center?

I got more like 3.65-3.7mrad with your Kahles photo (edit bigger image)

Sorry JL I should have specified, I actually meant the left/right white upright edges of the window.

Here:

 

[flatland1]

Bought a K624i AMR from Euro Optic back in April, and thought I had a slight issue with click value being a little higher than expected, based on tall target test & dope out of Shooter & Applied Ballistics resulting in POI at 600yds being about a mil high. Went back and checked my 100yd zero, found POI was about an inch high, so entered that vertical offset in the ammo profile. Now we're dead nutz on out to 1300yds with B105 Hybrids, and I've had no other issues. BTW, the reticle & clicks were a perfect match from the start.

Bought a 2nd Kahles - just like the 1st one - 7/29/14 from Sport Optic, and mounted it on a near twin to my 1st M700 6x47 Lapua. This one's built on a Bighorn TL2-SA instead of the M700, and has a Krieger 4-groove bbl instead of the Bartlein 5R I used on the M700. When I did the tall target test at 100yds, the dots on the target were 28" apart (far apart as I could space them on the backer I had), which figures 77.777778 clicks when you divide 28" by .36". Fired one shot at the bottom paster and got a center hit. Went up 77.8 clicks, and got a 9:00 hit on the top paster, 'bout as perfectly centered for elevation as possible. I know that's only 1 shot on each elevation setting, but when I backed off to 600yds and put on the 3.3 mils Applied Ballistics called for (S107MK @ 3020fps), I got five hits in the 4" aiming circle of black paint on my steel IPSC target.

I didn't use a tape to measure the 100yds from the rifle to the target - but the Terrapin gave me the same 100yd reading with multiple shots, close enough for my purposes. As any other owner would be, I'm a little concerned reading about issues with these scopes, especially considering the cost. But I couldn't be more pleased with both my K624i AMRs, and would recommend the Kahles to any of my shooting friends.

 

[farmer7]

Bought a K624i AMR from Euro Optic back in April, and thought I had a slight issue with click value being a little higher than expected, based on tall target test & dope out of Shooter & Applied Ballistics resulting in POI at 600yds being about a mil high. Went back and checked my 100yd zero, found POI was about an inch high, so entered that vertical offset in the ammo profile. Now we're dead nutz on out to 1300yds with B105 Hybrids, and I've had no other issues. BTW, the reticle & clicks were a perfect match from the start.

Bought a 2nd Kahles - just like the 1st one - 7/29/14 from Sport Optic, and mounted it on a near twin to my 1st M700 6x47 Lapua. This one's built on a Bighorn TL2-SA instead of the M700, and has a Krieger 4-groove bbl instead of the Bartlein 5R I used on the M700. When I did the tall target test at 100yds, the dots on the target were 28" apart (far apart as I could space them on the backer I had), which figures 77.777778 clicks when you divide 28" by .36". Fired one shot at the bottom paster and got a center hit. Went up 77.8 clicks, and got a 9:00 hit on the top paster, 'bout as perfectly centered for elevation as possible. I know that's only 1 shot on each elevation setting, but when I backed off to 600yds and put on the 3.3 mils Applied Ballistics called for (S107MK @ 3020fps), I got five hits in the 4" aiming circle of black paint on my steel IPSC target.

I didn't use a tape to measure the 100yds from the rifle to the target - but the Terrapin gave me the same 100yd reading with multiple shots, close enough for my purposes. As any other owner would be, I'm a little concerned reading about issues with these scopes, especially considering the cost. But I couldn't be more pleased with both my K624i AMRs, and would recommend the Kahles to any of my shooting friends.

Thats interesting Dennis. I'm not bashing Kahles at all, I really love the scope but its just a long way off and when you pay that sort of money you expect it to be perfect. I spoke to the dealer and he is going to try and get a hold of another 624i with MSR reticle and exchange it. Only problem there aren't any more in the UK, he's going to try and speak to the importers tomorrow.

Today I measured out exactly 100 yards again with a tape and double checked with the laser, against a Vortex PST. Results here. ( Exactly 18" between target spots):

As you can see measuring 5 mils the Kahles appears to be of by 0.3 mils. Vortex perhaps 0.05 mils, 101.01 yards for Vortex versus 106.38 for the Kahles.

 

[flatland1]

farmer7,
If I were in your shoes and was having the issues you're having, I'd want them resolved post haste. I'd never invested this much money in any optic before - up until last year when I bought a Bushnell ET35215GZA, I'd never spent more than $800 on a scope. So the purchase of the 1st Kahles was a big deal to me, and I'd probably not have done it if I hadn't read all the positive reviews here. Fortunately for me, my two scopes have lived up to their billing so far, actually exceeding my expectations.

I'm sure Kahles will take care of you, but like you, I'd be somewhat more than slightly disappointed if I had to send a brand new $3000 scope back to the factory, then wait X-amount of weeks to have it returned. Best of luck to you.

 

[270Win]

I was strongly considering that same Kahles scope but now not so much... a $3K scope should be CAREFULLY inspected BEFORE leaving the factory... shame on Kahles...

I am going to forward this thread to the Kahles USA customer service rep in Idaho

 

[farmer7]

I was strongly considering that same Kahles scope but now not so much... a $3K scope should be CAREFULLY inspected BEFORE leaving the factory... shame on Kahles...

I am going to forward this thread to the Kahles USA customer service rep in Idaho

I will get another if one can be sourced but I wont sent it back for repair, its too expensive a scope to buy brand new to then have to send away and be without for many weeks or months. Everything else about the scope I do really love but as you say on a scope of this value it should never have got through QC. This was the most expensive scope id bought and it did leave me a little surprised that scopes costing a lot less appear to be more reliable. An error of 0.3 mils I can imagine coming out of a scope from a chinese factory but not the oldest 'scope manufacturer in the world!

I wonder if they are checked against a chart by anyone after final assembly? If not maybe a worthwhile step??!!

 

[jakelly]

I will get another if one can be sourced but I wont sent it back for repair, its too expensive a scope to buy brand new to then have to send away and be without for many weeks or months. Everything else about the scope I do really love but as you say on a scope of this value it should never have got through QC. This was the most expensive scope id bought and it did leave me a little surprised that scopes costing a lot less appear to be more reliable. An error of 0.3 mils I can imagine coming out of a scope from a chinese factory but not the oldest 'scope manufacturer in the world!

I wonder if they are checked against a chart by anyone after final assembly? If not maybe a worthwhile step??!!

Well, whatever you do don't read the best scope thread evaluating the actual performance of the 2-3k dollar scope market. It'll break your heart.

 

[farmer7]

Just to say the US Kahles importer has been in touch to try and help resolve my issue, that was appreciated! My UK dealer has been great too in trying to resolve things and hope to have some news today about a final solution.

 

[270Win]

Just to say the US Kahles importer has been in touch to try and help resolve my issue, that was appreciated! My UK dealer has been great too in trying to resolve things and hope to have some news today about a final solution.

Jeff is a great guy and will make sure you get taken care of

 

[farmer7]

Jeff is a great guy and will make sure you get taken care of

Thank you for passing it on.

Scope is being collected tomorrow to be forwarded to UK importers and sent on to Kahles Austria at the beginning of the week, in an email from Kahles they have assured me repair time with them will not be longer than 3-4 days. Very satisfied with the service thus far.

 

[270Win]

Please let us know how it all turns out

 

[farmer7]

Please let us know how it all turns out

Had an email from Kahles this morning to say my scope is ready. Leaving Austria for the UK importers today, they received it on Friday 29th August and was ready on friday past so one week from receiving it. Cant really complain about that. Now I just have to wait for it to arrive back with me!

Email said: "Result of repair: Objective modified, checked on our collimator and scope is now in order!"

Looking forward to getting it up and running again but everything perfect this time!

 

[snipe10]

farmer7, keep us posted as I was going to buy one next Tuesday! Good luck,

p.s. the family and I are planning a trip to Scotland next year, any suggestions???? I also live here in Colorado right by Mile High if ya need anything like mounts or stuff that's legal to export

 

[farmer7]

Just an update, got my scope back early on in the week. Just didn't get a chance to post results here. Anyway all is well now and I'm very happy. There was a note in the box explaining what had been done but regarding repair it just said 'objective modified'.
When i sent it I included a note explaining how the click values were also off as well as the reticle. Previously at 100 yards shooting with 5 mil elevation gave me a group 19" high instead of 18" and then dialing up to 10 mils gave me a group 38" high instead of 36". Anyway click values are now spot on and the reticle is now reading correctly also. I have shot it and groups are now bang on at 18" and 36" elevation at 100 yards.

A short before video, excuse the terrible video work, its not my thing! Kahles K624i Tracking Error - YouTube

And a video taken today, perfect tracking now from 0 to 5 mil, then 10 and back to 0.

Kahles K624i after repair, perfect tracking. - YouTube

 

[jakelly]

Thanks farmer for the updates.

BTW I have been a Galloway breeder, so thanks for the great cattle, too.