Rifle Scopes Kahles K312 vs Hensoldt 3-12

[918v]

I'd like to thank you all for your guidance in the previous thread. I've narrowed it to two scopes. One has illumination that I'll prolly never use. So, optically speaking, which one is best in terms of resolution, contrast, and edge to edge sharpness even at low magnification?

 

[ccoker]

No personal experince with the Hensholdt but I absolutely love my Khales 312

Sent from my GT-N8013 using Tapatalk

 

[jbell]

It is honestly too close to call. It will just come down to each set of eyes and how they see it. But none the less it will be just splitting hairs. What will make the difference is in reticle options, turret and parallax configurations (the Kahles will correct 20m closer than the Hensoldt) ect...

 

[Shortcut]

Depends on how you use it. To me the Hensoldt is in a league of it's own. I got to look through Kahles 3-12x50 once however and I liked what I saw. The difference I could see right away was that the Hensoldt had a better eye-box (it always has), better light transmission and a better 3D feeling.
Kahles seemed to have a bit more distinct clicks than the Hensoldt 3-12x56.
I also appreciate the fact that Hensoldt is illuminated which is often a feature I want to have at my scopes.
I think that Hensoldt is a clear winner of the two but Kahles will not be a bad match either.

 

[Chris@InterstateGuns]

Is anyone servicing henny's in the us?

 

[Mike]

I will disagree and I've owned more than one Henny and currently shoot a Kahles. First, Henny's are excellent scopes from an optics standpoint. Very few are its peer. Kahles is one of them. The detrimental issues to Henny's now are ZERO customer service (better hope nothing happens) and the reticles suck. Kahles matches the optical quality of Henny (surpasses IMO) has much better reticle choices and MUCH better customer service. Illumination? I've never used it but a few times and even then it really wasn't needed. Don't let illumination be your deciding factor. Get the Kahles and don't look back.

 

[Guy Montag]

Get the Kahles and don't look back.

2014 is going to be a helluva year for Kahles.

 

[KWilson]

2014 is going to be a helluva year for Kahles.

Have they got a few surprises in store?

 

[Guy Montag]

Not sure about surprises, I was referring to the not so well kept secret that their optical quality is damn impressive and on par with S&B, and believe they're going to sell a lot of scopes in the coming year. Pretty amazing to me how they've moved up the optics food chain so quickly.

 

[ToKeepAndBear]

I have the Hensoldt 3-12x56 FFP and 4-16x56 NH1 and love them both. I use the 4-16 on my competition rifle, a 260 TRG. The 3-12 is on a Sako 308 TRG with 20" barrel that is a combo hunter/ tactical rig and is perfect for that setup and range. The reticle is the perfect thickness for hunting. It is a little thick if you are just shooting at dimes all day. But I shot it at the Mammoth Sniper Challenge last year and did not have any misses because I couldn't see the target (and some were quite small). I like the simple mil-dot reticle in this application for hunting moving animals, the light gathering is very impressive, lit reticle is nice if needed (dark background), and the eye box/image are amazing. There is no fiddling with your head to get the view, it just is there, even when quickly bringing the rifle up into position. This scope is very good even at 3 power, minimal tunneling that is gone by 3.5-4 power. I have had no problems with either scope.

I have not used a Kahles. Try to look through and handle both if you can before purchase.

TKAB

 

[Shortcut]

Is anyone servicing henny's in the us?

I never had a problem with Hensoldt (though there might be people that had) but if you would, I guess it's very simple to just turn to the dealer you purchased it from and they'll surely fix it for you. Wheather it's Alex at Eurooptic, Scott at Liberty, Mike at CS Tactical or Doug at Cameraland, all these guys are very helpfull to deal with. There are certainly many more alike but these are some I dealt with on other ocasions and it's allways been a smooth ride.

 

[Schleifalot]

Pretty amazing to me how they've moved up the optics food chain so quickly.

Some years back Kahles was nearly bankrupt. Swarovski bought the whole business. I feared back then that Khales would vanish, elimination of a competitor. But Swaro kept it, and expanded the product line.

When I saw the first Kompetition line add, I got interested. The first gen was 1/4 and 1/8 MOA, no thanks. But then came the K312 II, FFP MilMil..... Last year I fondled one at the IWA (international weapon exhibition at Nürnberg), I was hooked. Better image than most other manufacturers, even better than Zeiss IMHO. Par with SB. This year the same procedure, maybe they remembered me, because I salivated again over theyr tac scopes.
Kahles still has excellent hunting scopes. But I think Swaro bought Kahles as a dooropener into the tactical / LEO scene, without endangering their own name or business.

By the way, this week arrived my K312 II. Big, long, heavy, great. About the same dimensions as the usual suspects in this class.
The rifle for this scope is still beeing built. Oh, the cruel wait......

 

[Gil P.]

For the price of a Hensoldt 3-12, couldn't you just get a K624i? Its got a zero stop, illumination, and much better reticle options, like the Mil 6 or MSR.

 

[918v]

I want something more compact. The modern scope is surpassing the rifle in size. Pretty soon we'll be attaching rifles to scopes and towing the unit with a turbo diesel.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Since we're on the subject of Kahles tactical scopes. I sold my Premier 5-25x56 Tactical for the Kahles k624i in November. Image quality is a wash to my eyes and I got the reticle I wanted (MSR) and no more MTC clicks. Couldn't be happier. I have played with many Henny's and their glass is top tier, but I feel Kahles gives nothing up in that department and you gain a better price point, better turrets and domestic customer service from Ken if you ever need it. I would agree with one of the posters above who said get the Kahles and don't look back.

-VB

 

[Shortcut]

I also think Kahles is a great brand and there is not a whole lot to complain about. The ones I focused mostly on are the K624i and had the chance to look through the 3-12x50 as well.
What I realized is that Kahles seems to have a little better clarity on the edges but Hensoldt has better light transmission, better 3D feeling and bigger eyebox.
On the illuminated Kahles K624i I also noticed that the illumination bleeds into the reticle which I find a bit irritating.
On several ocasions I noticed other issues with that. If you turn the illumination a bit higher in the dark/twilight you will get gost rings from it and at times reflections on the reticles glass that are not supposed to be there. These are issues that were a big problem in the begining and which Kahles should have fixed with the new generation of k624i but I could still notice them. They had like scratches on the reticle plate and very poor light transmission because of the plate beeing wrongly manufactured. It seems that they haven't really gotten rid of that problem yet.

The tricky thing is that it varies from scope to scope. Sometimes you notice them clearly and sometimes they are more discrete.
If you turn on the illumination on the Hensoldt, you will see no bleeding, no ghost rings and no weird reflections.

 

[918v]

I have the Hensoldt 3-12x56 FFP and 4-16x56 NH1 and love them both. I use the 4-16 on my competition rifle, a 260 TRG. The 3-12 is on a Sako 308 TRG with 20" barrel that is a combo hunter/ tactical rig and is perfect for that setup and range. The reticle is the perfect thickness for hunting. It is a little thick if you are just shooting at dimes all day. But I shot it at the Mammoth Sniper Challenge last year and did not have any misses because I couldn't see the target (and some were quite small). I like the simple mil-dot reticle in this application for hunting moving animals, the light gathering is very impressive, lit reticle is nice if needed (dark background), and the eye box/image are amazing. There is no fiddling with your head to get the view, it just is there, even when quickly bringing the rifle up into position. This scope is very good even at 3 power, minimal tunneling that is gone by 3.5-4 power. I have had no problems with either scope.

I have not used a Kahles. Try to look through and handle both if you can before purchase.

TKAB

Between the two, do you feel the 3-12 has better resolution?

 

[Clark]

918V,
Didn't you already have a Hensoldt, years ago?

I have a Kahles Helica CL-3 3x10x50. The elevation turret is in radians, and that sucks for me, but if I use it again, I will put tape on the turret and mark it per ranges I measure with a target. I shot a deer and an antelope with it.

 

[Mike]

Again, get the Kahles. It leaves nothing to the Hensoldt, has better reticle choices, has a great resource and point of contact in Ken, a Veteran, here in the USA and they support the shooting community. It's a no brainer.

 

[mdmp5]

Again, get the Kahles. It leaves nothing to the Hensoldt, has better reticle choices, has a great resource and point of contact in Ken, a Veteran, here in the USA and they support the shooting community. It's a no brainer.

I hear the Kahles is really good all around, and yes the reticle options are very nice. Maybe a KX will be my next scope in the future. But Mike, are we led to believe that you completely scrapped your Hensoldts? Yes, the FFP mil dot is a little boring, but it's hard to believe that you went from writing such good reviews on the scope to junking it. Was it the Zeiss/Hensoldt customer service debacle that changed your opinion? I'm not trying to bust your balls, but I'd just like to know because I have 2 Hensoldts, and these days I'm starting to feel naive for holding on to them.

 

[mdmp5]

I want something more compact. The modern scope is surpassing the rifle in size. Pretty soon we'll be attaching rifles to scopes and towing the unit with a turbo diesel.

Actually, the trend is moving toward smaller scopes. Look at the new NF line; both the ATACR and BEAST are smaller in size than the NXS line. The new Vortex Razor, although heavy, is more compact. Both the Hensoldt 3-12 and 4-16 are very compact. The Kahles is 15.9" long, which is not any bigger than the norm.

 

[Mike]

I hear the Kahles is really good all around, and yes the reticle options are very nice. Maybe a KX will be my next scope in the future. But Mike, are we led to believe that you completely scrapped your Hensoldts? Yes, the FFP mil dot is a little boring, but it's hard to believe that you went from writing such good reviews on the scope to junking it. Was it the Zeiss/Hensoldt customer service debacle that changed your opinion? I'm not trying to bust your balls, but I'd just like to know because I have 2 Hensoldts, and these days I'm starting to feel naive for holding on to them.

dont put words in my mouth. I am neither scrapping the Hennys or saying "junking" it. The fixed 10x is still one of the best scopes I ever owned. But the indisputable fact is the reticles suck and there is ZERO service for here in the states. If you take away those two factors then it's a toss up. However, reality is Henny doesn't seem to give a crap about business in the US or the tactical shooting community as evident by both factors mentioned. And to your point there are a number of people who have had issues recently with the Hennys and have had no one to turn to since Hudisco closed.

 

[918v]

918V,
Didn't you already have a Hensoldt, years ago?

I have a Kahles Helica CL-3 3x10x50. The elevation turret is in radians, and that sucks for me, but if I use it again, I will put tape on the turret and mark it per ranges I measure with a target. I shot a deer and an antelope with it.

No, I have a Zeiss Divari 6-24x56 with half cm adjustments. It's a Hensoldt wannabe.

 

[hamstur]

I own one of each and like them both. Everybody has pretty much summed it up that the Hensoldt eyebox & image is noticably better, but not by a huge margin. Its like is a 98 vs 94 -- both would still be a very solid A.

Same weight at 28 oz. The Henny is a bit more compact feeling overall. The Kahles is near identical size to a NF F1 except w 34mm tube

I happen to be in the minority who likes and prefers the mildot. Henny reticle is thicker and imho a better field scope, the Kahles a better target scope.

If I had to pick one as my fav 3-12, maybe the Hensoldt but if I were to pick up another 3-12, probably the Kahles due to knowing it will be supported. FWIW, I picked up the Kahles to run a side-by-side comparison to the NF F1. It's in a whole league up & I just reminded myself I need to sell the F1.

 

[Powermac]

I'm not gonna get my head too deep into this dicussion.
Both are great scopes options, it only depends what you want.
As optical quality goes, they're just about the same the owners eyes will be the determining factor.
No doubt Zeiss and Swaro(Kahles) have the best optical quality of all scope companies, S&B is close though.
Hensoldts only weak point is the reticle options.

But to say Zeiss has zero customer service is about as flawed as it comes.
They do not have a service center in the US, so it will have to be shipped.
But Zeiss customer service is generally excellent, and so is they're turn around time.
As for people having no one to turn to when if there should be a problem.
Contact one of the serious vendors that imports them (CS comes to mind), or Zeiss and you will be taken care of.

As to how Hensoldt continues in the US, is really up to Cassidian of Canada as they've bought a very large pot of it, and is the official US importer.
As for Cassidian , correctly they does not seem very much interested in promoting products for the civilian market.

 

[6.5 GUY]

I love my Kahles K312 II, I have no real use for a illuminated scope either, but if I do I have a few that are, not that I've ever needed it. I had two AH 3-9x42 Kahles scopes that I sold this year for the same price I bought them for back in early 2002 and 2004, can't say that for too many other ten year old scopes! (They were in mint condition though). Besides CS is having a sale right now on them ..... 10% off!

 

[19Scout77]

At the risk of rehashing a closed subject, why have you eliminated the SB 3-12 from consideration? IMO the SB 3-12 is the prized Jewel of SB line. The only thing that kept me from runnng them exclusively is the 12x. Otherwise the glass, size, turrets and reticles are fantastic.

 

[Mike]

But to say Zeiss has zero customer service is about as flawed as it comes.
They do not have a service center in the US, so it will have to be shipped.
But Zeiss customer service is generally excellent, and so is they're turn around time.
As for people having no one to turn to when if there should be a problem.
Contact one of the serious vendors that imports them (CS comes to mind), or Zeiss and you will be taken care of.

As to how Hensoldt continues in the US, is really up to Cassidian of Canada as they've bought a very large pot of it, and is the official US importer.
As for Cassidian , correctly they does not seem very much interested in promoting products for the civilian market.

Hensoldt is not Zeiss. Technically they are a part of the Carl Zeiss company however they are two separate entities. Zeiss' customer service is not going to do anything to help other than direct you to Hensoldt. The vendors have no recourse other than to ship the scope out just lie the end user. And the scope will have to be shipped? No thanks, I'm not shipping a scope to Germany with the huge time difference and other colossal headaches.

Again, the question is not about the quality per se, but other mitigating factors that play a key roll.

 

[Shortcut]

I think you're trying to make a big thing out of nothing. What's the issue with shipping a scope to Germany? It takes about 4 days with UPS or USPS Express. Is that such a big problem? Whatever the vendor does after I leave my scope back on warranty is his problem, not mine. As long as the scope is properly taken care of he can just as well ship it to Congo, I couldn't care less.
It's very simple and painless.

 

[Mike]

I think you're trying to make a big thing out of nothing. What's the issue with shipping a scope to Germany? It takes about 4 days with UPS or USPS Express. Is that such a big problem? Whatever the vendor does after I leave my scope back on warranty is his problem, not mine. As long as the scope is properly taken care of he can just as well ship it to Congo, I couldn't care less.
It's very simple and painless.

Everything is perfect in a perfect world. Too bad we don't live in one.