I’m driving right now, but don’t put words in my mouth. I have a good relationship with Elia and anything like that. I can discuss with him personally, but that is scummy as hell as making things up.
Kahles vz ZCO
- Thread starter jo_smith
- Start date
I have own a hand full of ZCO’s…. Well maybe more help me out @CSTactical I have only had issue with one, it was a turret issue and it got solved immediately (that’s when I got the hat, up for bids) haven’t had an issue since and I never second guessed my other purchases after that.
And you act like you’re being an advocate for the original poster, he’s bought his ACCO and dealt with be directly long ago.
@carbonbased said Jennifer Aniston is a horrible lay, but he still recommends it. He never banged her, but he read on the internet from a guy who's cousin cleaned Brad Pitt's pool who hinted at it.
\thread
You have zero, 0, absolutely no info of a personal knowledge. Just what someone else posted on the WWW interwebs. That is a fact. But you pass it along like gospel.
Again: Jesus Christ didn't make everyone happy.
Not a bit mad. You are playing a two faced game. And you know it.
Go ahead and say some bullshit that you are just passing along a one off something. That's exactly what it is. A one off. It's nothing you have first hand knowledge of. Just some bullshit you read on the www. A one in ten thousand reviews.
More like,
Jennifer Aniston is a hot chick and a great lay. Many, many people love her (I’ve heard). Also heard a few people are unhappy with a zit or three, but she addresses her flaws immediately! She fibs a little about her tit size. Her rep can occasionally be a little obnoxious. But she’s hotter than her friend Monica! Date her!
Response:
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Ironically, you are not doing ZCO or yourself any favors.
This is the technical forum.
This is how you’re treating me, someone who likes ZCO, recommends ZCO, but actually has some mild criticism.
I mean, what sort of apeshit response would I provoke if I said ZCO sux?
Your actions are not helping ZCO and CSTactical draw in new buyers.
And none of it do you have any first hand experience at, therefore every last word you say has zero value or relevance. That's why you're getting flamed here because you're just another wannabe poser who claims to know it all, but really you're clueless with no actual information to pass along.More like,
Jennifer Aniston is a hot chick and a great lay. Many, many people love her (I’ve heard). Also heard a few people are unhappy with a zit or three, but she addresses her flaws immediately! She fibs a little about her tit size. Her rep can occasionally be a little obnoxious. But she’s hotter than her friend Monica! Date her!
Response:
And you have no technical information to pass along, yet here you are...
- Nov 3, 2010
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You’re spewing shit in a tech forum about a scope you don’t even own.
You say that you like ZCO, recommend ZCO "BUT." The" BUT". You have zero knowledge.
Look up the word knowledge
imagine this thread title:
Response:
Guys, have some of you been drinking?
I LOVE ZCO BUT HAVE A WEE NIGGLE
Response:
Guys, have some of you been drinking?
Pardon? Here’s what I wrote when responding to @oldrifleman:
I was explaining why I had written at length about our esteemed Mr. Koshkin & ZCO. I used the terms seemed, maybe, & not sure.
Nowhere do I say anything about how you feel about koshkin, nor do I put words in your mouth.
I have stayed out of this for a while but rich and Koshkin have a great relationship and dispite your drunken Blathering your reputation or Rather what is left if it is pretty much trashed. You keep rehashing stuff that was dealt with months ago.
Please, Please, just STFU
RIF. He said he didn't own, nor has he ever owned a ZCO and that "he doesn't give a fuck (about ZCOs).Here is koshkin is alluding to the ZCO FOV issue. I will scrub through his vids and give you dudes a time stamp.
There is no demand, just a request…
Nothing like the eye-watering steam-bath of ZCO fanboi heat
Guys, turn it down a notch? We’re talking about a riflescope here.
You don't think that maybe, just maybe, you're getting flamed for reasons other than people being "fanbois" do you ? Just a hunch.
The Grande Poobah has spoken.......
Hint; I'm confident that ZCO and CS Tactical have been doing just fine and will continue to do so without your opinions.
My Kahles 624i is a beast, and still running strong and tracking perfectly after seven or eight years and many barrels. I honestly never noticed the chromatic aberation till SH freaked out about it. A slight purple tinge has never bothered me one bit, and I didn't even see it till the panic of 2016 (or whatever). Still shooting it, and would consider another, but very happy with the ZCOs as well.
I think it's funny some people don't think Kahles is "tier one". Totally is. Maybe TT and ZCO are a little better, but a Kahles isn't going to hold back your shooting one iota, and it has features that are great. People are always saying "left windage", but it's that the parallax is on the right that's so convenient so your support hand can stay on the front stock (limb) while you're getting the target sharp.
Can't go wrong with either, and rather than go to some store/warehouse, go to a match, and anyone will let you look through/fingerbang their scope and rifle. We're kewl like that.
I think it's funny some people don't think Kahles is "tier one". Totally is. Maybe TT and ZCO are a little better, but a Kahles isn't going to hold back your shooting one iota, and it has features that are great. People are always saying "left windage", but it's that the parallax is on the right that's so convenient so your support hand can stay on the front stock (limb) while you're getting the target sharp.
Can't go wrong with either, and rather than go to some store/warehouse, go to a match, and anyone will let you look through/fingerbang their scope and rifle. We're kewl like that.
I’m sorry to reply to this thread again, especially tonight, but it just dawned upon me that you may think I’m including you in with ZCO when I said:
Him = @koshkin
If that is what you or anybody thought, my apologies. I’m talking about ZCO proper, the owners, who I believe he talked to at a past Shot Show (or similar) about the FOV spec discrepancy.
I assume you are not part of ZCO but are just selling their product and are close to the company. Right?
Regardless, I’m not referencing you in that statement, so of course it’s not surprising that you’d appear on his show.
So what I got from this thread is: Carbonbased thinks ZCOs are good, but doesn't own one. He wants people to know about past problems. He is upset that CSTactical won't talk about or acknowledge past problems, and CSTactical hasn't yet directly addressed Carbonbased questions.
Is CSTactical avoiding answering Carbonbased questions on purpose? Or is he not understanding his questions?
Is CSTactical avoiding answering Carbonbased questions on purpose? Or is he not understanding his questions?
So you didn’t read my posts at all I see, not only did I say I was going out so I wouldn’t be available. But I did say that I was directly involved with some of those posts, and was threatened with a lawsuit for nothing. So yeah I’m not going to post messages and PM’s of what happened with members that are not even on this forum anymore. Since I’m an actual person and not just a screen name, I will tread lightly on certain things. Having receipts and screenshots are great, but is it worth legal issues to impress a few of you guys?
Hell I posted my name and number yet I have not received a call. I’m not scared to have a discussion over the phone if it’s that important to you.
Again not anonymous,
Richard
916-628-3490
Dude. Almost everyone is anonymous on this thread and on this site. I’m just like the vast majority.
Here are some questions that do not require a phone call, some of which I believe @Gil P. Is referencing.
Do detractors of a brand ever flat-out recommend said brand over another?
Do dectractors provide links to tests in which the said brand comes out on top?
Is there something inherently suspicious about me providing links to other discussions about said brand? Links that may contain critical info about the brand’s product?
Or must fans of a brand be
% positive about it, % of the time?
Why don’t you jump into threads to similarly and vociferously defend the other brands you carry?
Are you just a general CSTactical sales guy or do you actually work for ZCO? Or does ZCO own CSTactical? Serious question. I’m a bit confused.
(edit: this is indeed a serious question, one with no ill-will behind it. I frankly don't know the answer. Who cares if you are a ZCO employee or are a CST employee but exclusively handle the ZCO sales account? I don't.)
Here are some questions that do not require a phone call, some of which I believe @Gil P. Is referencing.
Do detractors of a brand ever flat-out recommend said brand over another?
Do dectractors provide links to tests in which the said brand comes out on top?
Is there something inherently suspicious about me providing links to other discussions about said brand? Links that may contain critical info about the brand’s product?
Or must fans of a brand be
% positive about it, % of the time?Why don’t you jump into threads to similarly and vociferously defend the other brands you carry?
Are you just a general CSTactical sales guy or do you actually work for ZCO? Or does ZCO own CSTactical? Serious question. I’m a bit confused.
(edit: this is indeed a serious question, one with no ill-will behind it. I frankly don't know the answer. Who cares if you are a ZCO employee or are a CST employee but exclusively handle the ZCO sales account? I don't.)
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There are no threats or libel? Man this thread is weird. These are innocuous and general questions?
You tell me. What are my insuinuations?
I suggest people buy ZCO scopes over Kahles.
I don’t know why you, Richard, or anybody gets uncomfortable over mild criticism about ZCO.
I don’t know why Richard doesn’t similarly defend the other brands CSTactical carries.
These are easy questions to answer.
I read through your posts. I think this the first time you said you weren't going to post anything.
To be clear about this post; are you saying you aren't going to post any negative information about ZCOs in general or that you aren't going to post anything pertaining to those posts someone threatened to sue you over?
Or both?
I'm a bit cornfuzed too.. You start off with a broad statement about zco fan boys "Tamping Down" any negative reports.Dude. Almost everyone is anonymous on this thread and on this site. I’m just like the vast majority.
Here are some questions that do not require a phone call, some of which I believe @Gil P. Is referencing.
Do detractors of a brand ever flat-out recommend said brand over another?
Do dectractors provide links to tests in which the said brand comes out on top?
Is there something inherently circumspect about providing links to other discussions about said brand? Links that may contain critical info about the brand’s product?
Or must fans of a brand be
Why don’t you jump into threads to similarly and vociferously defend the other brands you carry?
Are you just a general CSTactical sales guy or do you actually work for ZCO? Or does ZCO own CSTactical? Serious question. I’m a bit confused.
This is an obvious strategy to discredit anyone pushing back against the second hand complaints you linked.
Then you try to come off all fair and unbiased by saying you'd recommend ZCO even though you have zero damn experience with them.. Give it up man!
Also I've personally spoken with Richard multiple times and he's a super solid guy, if you think he's a shill for some manufacturer then you've got it all wrong. He's an enthusiast and will talk straight with you, I haven't even bought anything from him just shared info and taken advice.
For the record I own a zco 527 and currently favor my 7-35 ATACR over it for the better FOV, yes the zco fov is totally shit in comparison I'll 100% agree with that.
The glass however is absolutely incredible, as is the tracking and reliability, I'm actually going to switch it back to my prs rifle because I can see point of impact splash way better with the lighter weight bullets.
@oldrifleman, you are acting very odd.
@762 ULTRAMAGA thanks for your report on the ZCO 527 vs NF 735 FOV. I didn't know the NF had more FOV hmmmm. I've missed that, I guess, but then again I haven't really compared every single spec of the Tier 1 scopes as I cannot afford them right now (two kids in college).
I've been a bit fixated on flare resistance due to my typical shooting conditions (I know that's a little weird). ZCO, March, and NF are particularly good in that area (according to my research from first-hand reviews…sorry!).
Also, about this:
God only knows why full-grown men care so much about the inanimate objects they purchase.
Also, people recommend things all of the time that they haven't had direct experience with, but have read/heard glowing reports about? I am honest about it and try to explain why I recommend what I do.
I am certainly less useful than a fellow that has direct experience with a product (like you), for sure, but I try to link to first-hand experiences.
I mean, what do you think I'm trying to do? What is my nefarious plan? Are you implying I say "buy this thing because you guys say it's awesome [see reports]", but I really mean "don't buy the thing because I've also read some smaller issues that have been largely resolved" wink wink nudge nudge???
What kind of retarded plan is that? lol
@CSTactical / Richard, I don't know why you're acting the way you are. Perhaps there is a good reason…you've hinted at lawsuits or threatened lawsuits? Maybe something has made you super-duper suspicious.
But understand that I am just some rando prairie dog shooter. One that really digs into research.
I think you are doing what you feel is right. But realize there is a significant fraction of people that wish you'd just stay above the fray. You are, I think, the only sales guy on SH that gets down and dirty. Like, a lot. You really don't want to sully yourself with us pigs. We're gross.
Now, Frank Green of Bartlein often contributes super-valuable info about cleaning bores, barrel steel, etc, yet he never, ever toots his own brand's horn or gets involved in barrel debates. That would be just inappropriate.
It's seriously unbecoming for a rep to constantly interject themselves into a forum debate environment (vs. just providing barrel specs, like Frank Green). Imagine a group of dudes having a discussion at a bar about sandwiches and a guy with a Subway Sandwich placard over his chest walks up and proceeds to constantly interject opinions about the superiority of a certain sandwich brand. I mean…yeah.
Selling a product automatically reduces one's credibility because of the incentives. In other words, due to the very nature of your job, you have an inherently inescapable conflict of interest. That is not unique to you. Nothing you can do about it.
From the bottom of my heart, I think you mean well. You remind me of my brother, who is very brand loyal (and very loquacious, like you, and frankly, like me). When he worked for Coke, he went ALL IN. Coke garage fridge, Coke coffee table, the dude couldn't shut up about Coke etc etc.
But you are killing the very thing you love, man, by acting on this forum like you do. Yes, some people love you (obviously!!!) but they are going to buy only so many scopes. You can do better, man. I know you can.
I'm still confused about all the other stuff I've listed elsewhere lol
@762 ULTRAMAGA thanks for your report on the ZCO 527 vs NF 735 FOV. I didn't know the NF had more FOV hmmmm. I've missed that, I guess, but then again I haven't really compared every single spec of the Tier 1 scopes as I cannot afford them right now (two kids in college).
I've been a bit fixated on flare resistance due to my typical shooting conditions (I know that's a little weird). ZCO, March, and NF are particularly good in that area (according to my research from first-hand reviews…sorry!).
Also, about this:
The links I have provided typically contain first hand experiences. Perhaps you can link to one that isn't? I certainly could've made a mistake. And I think it's indisputable that any faint criticism of ZCO somehow generates a groundswell of diffuse general anger.
God only knows why full-grown men care so much about the inanimate objects they purchase.
Also, people recommend things all of the time that they haven't had direct experience with, but have read/heard glowing reports about? I am honest about it and try to explain why I recommend what I do.
I am certainly less useful than a fellow that has direct experience with a product (like you), for sure, but I try to link to first-hand experiences.
I mean, what do you think I'm trying to do? What is my nefarious plan? Are you implying I say "buy this thing because you guys say it's awesome [see reports]", but I really mean "don't buy the thing because I've also read some smaller issues that have been largely resolved" wink wink nudge nudge???
What kind of retarded plan is that? lol
@CSTactical / Richard, I don't know why you're acting the way you are. Perhaps there is a good reason…you've hinted at lawsuits or threatened lawsuits? Maybe something has made you super-duper suspicious.
But understand that I am just some rando prairie dog shooter. One that really digs into research.
I think you are doing what you feel is right. But realize there is a significant fraction of people that wish you'd just stay above the fray. You are, I think, the only sales guy on SH that gets down and dirty. Like, a lot. You really don't want to sully yourself with us pigs. We're gross.
Now, Frank Green of Bartlein often contributes super-valuable info about cleaning bores, barrel steel, etc, yet he never, ever toots his own brand's horn or gets involved in barrel debates. That would be just inappropriate.
It's seriously unbecoming for a rep to constantly interject themselves into a forum debate environment (vs. just providing barrel specs, like Frank Green). Imagine a group of dudes having a discussion at a bar about sandwiches and a guy with a Subway Sandwich placard over his chest walks up and proceeds to constantly interject opinions about the superiority of a certain sandwich brand. I mean…yeah.
Selling a product automatically reduces one's credibility because of the incentives. In other words, due to the very nature of your job, you have an inherently inescapable conflict of interest. That is not unique to you. Nothing you can do about it.
From the bottom of my heart, I think you mean well. You remind me of my brother, who is very brand loyal (and very loquacious, like you, and frankly, like me). When he worked for Coke, he went ALL IN. Coke garage fridge, Coke coffee table, the dude couldn't shut up about Coke etc etc.
But you are killing the very thing you love, man, by acting on this forum like you do. Yes, some people love you (obviously!!!) but they are going to buy only so many scopes. You can do better, man. I know you can.
I'm still confused about all the other stuff I've listed elsewhere lol
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Don't flatter yourself. Dirty D and all the "filthy gang" very likely don't consider you "one of theirs", any more than "your good buddy" Ilya. I can't help but notice that in spite of your multiple bat signals to him, he still hasn't responded. He's no dummy and probably wants no part of your goat rodeo.Turdcutter baby, me, @Dirty D and all the filthy gang still love you man
You have some serious issues, not the least of which are your constant harassment of multiple Hide Commercial Vendors as well as a complete lack of self awareness as to how you come across to others. Any possible valid message that you may have had has long since been lost due to your threats to others here and your bellicose, holier than thou attitude.
Saying that "Richard doesn't want to lower himself to dealing with the unwashed masses" is a pretty fucked up thing to do. Richard, CS Tactical, ZCO, Kahles and everyone else here owes you nothing. Yet, you act like everyone should bow down to your feet. If I were Richard, I'd tell you to go fuck yourself. But, he's obviously more of a gentleman than I.
You have never even owned a ZCO scope, you have never had any first hand experience with their Customer Service, yet you have attempted to bring your fantasy to life that you are somehow an expert on all things ZCO.
Maybe, since you are "the expert", you should start your own scope company and show ZCO, Kahles and CS Tactical how things are done. Short of that, you have zero skin in the game and all you are doing is picking flyshit out of everyone's pepper. And anyone with half a brain are sick of it.
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Unfortunately, you ZCO guys don’t understand how thin-skinned you come across.
If you haven’t noticed, I am not disparaging anyone or any company. Critiquing a product by linking to or discussing possible shortcomings is not “harassment.“ Do you realize how wimpy that sounds?
I’ve already found and linked to koshkin’s statement that ZCO’s FOV specs are overstated. Or is linking to that quote by itself offending some delicate sensibilities? Is koshkin lying?
Remember that I actually think ZCO scopes are good, if Koshkin/Glassaholic/many of you guys are to believed. You included.
Why the heck do you think I want people to bow down to me? I am not a ZCO expert, nor some ultimate shooting expert either. Literally all I have done is provide links and discourse about some issues with ZCO scopes. And some grown men can’t handle it. That is so weird.
If you haven’t noticed, I am not disparaging anyone or any company. Critiquing a product by linking to or discussing possible shortcomings is not “harassment.“ Do you realize how wimpy that sounds?
I’ve already found and linked to koshkin’s statement that ZCO’s FOV specs are overstated. Or is linking to that quote by itself offending some delicate sensibilities? Is koshkin lying?
Remember that I actually think ZCO scopes are good, if Koshkin/Glassaholic/many of you guys are to believed. You included.
Why the heck do you think I want people to bow down to me? I am not a ZCO expert, nor some ultimate shooting expert either. Literally all I have done is provide links and discourse about some issues with ZCO scopes. And some grown men can’t handle it. That is so weird.
I don’t think you understand what I mean. I suggested he act like Frank Green, a class act. Frank does not get into squabbles with forum guys because it looks bad to do so. That’s also why companies generally avoid dissing their competitors. It looks unbecoming. (Edit: not saying Richard has done the latter! It’s just an additional example of poor form.)
I’m not saying Richard is too good to do xyz. C’mon man.
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One time I emailed them asking how to buy a hat and they sent me one. Not because they are nice but because I think they were annoyed I was asking and they didn’t have a gear shop.
At SEMA I went to the Corvette booth and asked about a review that I read on the Internet. The review said that the lateral G is 1.03 but you advertise it as 1.04. Can you please explain that? They asked me if I owned a C8 and I told them that I didn't and I can't even afford one. Actually I have never even driven one but you need to explain yourself on this discrepancy that I read about.
They told me to go be poor somewhere else.
They told me to go be poor somewhere else.
Pardon me, I did misquote you. Here is your exact quote;
"You are, I think, the only sales guy on SH that gets down and dirty. Like, a lot. You really don't want to sully yourself with us pigs. We're gross".
Post in thread 'Kahles vz ZCO'
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/kahles-vz-zco.7255238/post-12134900
There is no practical difference between my "misquote" and what you said, directly above. It's no less of a fucked up thing to infer.
You just don't get it. You keep going back to this "You ZCO Guys sure are thin skinned". You're not getting pigpiled because anyone is thin skinned, it's because you're acting like an asshole on multiple levels. You're sticking your nose into other people's business, where you have no business doing so.
Besides, your premise for doing this is over what, ZCO's published FOV spec ? I don't know what the numbers are and I've not read anything from Ilya in regard to it. From what little I can recall, published vs actual (according to Ilya) were something like 108' vs 102'. I probably have those numbers wrong (in an absolute sense). But in practical terms, I don't care in the least bit. And, before you go off on another tangent and accuse me of trashing Ilya, I am not. I have no opinion of him other than to say that from everything I have seen, he is a very intelligent man.
I'm pretty much done here. You're off on your crusade and nothing is going to stop you. I'm just wasting my time by commenting any further.
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It was advice. Like if you see two little kids fighting in the mud, and you turn to your kid and say, “Bobby, see, you don’t really want to dirty yourself like those two little pigs.” As in, it would be wise to keep above the fray, you’re better than that, it’s not good for you to get mud all over your clothes.
As a rep, fighting with regular forum guys doesn’t ultimately help your personal brand, your employer’s brand, nor the brand of the product you are selling. It’s a lose-lose-lose situation.
Ah well. This may be the only thread in the history of the Hide in which a guy is roasted over the coals for literally (largely) agreeing with the mob.
Actually you are using a common debate technique involving seemingly agreeing with the opponent while simultaneously launching a counter-attack to undermine their argument. This can take the form of acknowledging a point, but then shifting the focus to highlight weaknesses or perceived inconsistencies in their overall position. This technique is often used to gain the upper hand in a debate by appearing reasonable while subtly trying to weaken the opponent's case.
I was tired and stressed last night and missed this. Guys, he is bored and looking to attack a well know opponent to have fun. I think it is time we let him go have fun playing with himself.
I was tired and stressed last night and missed this. Guys, he is bored and looking to attack a well know opponent to have fun. I think it is time we let him go have fun playing with himself.
From my perspective, this is exactly what’s going on. I’m sorry some of you took offense, and I still don’t understand your visceral reactions.
I saw this as well, but I was busy last night. Growing up in adverse circumstances around hustlers and gang members in a rough area, I see through techniques like this often.
Regardless, everyone have a great weekend and let’s all try and be better with providing information to help those trying to learn from us.
This week I got together with a high school friend turned enemy from 35 years ago to bring him into the mix. From the serious incident we had, we now break bread and will hang out often. We have plenty of enemies who look to destroy our constitutional rights and those people are the ones we should be against unless they change their thinking and ways.
There’s not many safe havens on the internet for us to exchange ideas. Let’s keep Snipershide that place as long as we can, let us respect the home of @Lowlight
Cheers everyone, I need a ton of coffee right now
Richard Alves
916-628-3490
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Or sell a few things and buy a ZCO. It’s a rough look when he doesn’t have at least 1.
That being said, I’ve got and had other stuff that wasn’t up to speed and I am quite hesitant to report my experience publicly due to the small community. It has to be real bad to mention it and deal with the fans.
There's a big difference between having an issue with something that you purchased and bringing it up and what is going on here. This clown doesn't own the scope, can't afford it and it's highly doubtful that he's even ever looked through one and is demanding a vendor answer for something that he's read on the webs.
I have also purchased items that didn't meet my expectations. I'll usually search the web to find out if it is common or discuss it with the manufacturer. If I can't live with the issue it'll hit the for sale markets slightly discounted. I am not big on drawing attention about it. If someone I know asked me about the item I will tell them my experience. But I ain't spreading it on the WWW. There's way to many individuals that do stoooopid shit for attention.
As I said earlier in this thread. I've been around for a long while and I don't post in the tech forums for many reasons. I read them while not logged in to keep from calling out bullshit.
Back to my exile.
I have my own goat rodeo thank you very much, you can leave me out of this one.Turdcutter baby, me, @Dirty D and all the filthy gang still love you man
Now if you’ll ’Scuse me imma go be poor somewhere else.
@carbonbased before you bother people with the links you highlighted, from dissatisfied people who have had one or more problems with various telescopes and with multiple brands! why didn't you go to the interested parties who opened discussions to ask about their problems they had with their telescopes? why in all the posts they made they never said all the problems? and if they solved them? and how did they solve them?
I am literally agreeing with the bulk of people on the thread that ZCO > Kahles. But I pointed out some past issues with ZCO so people are aware.
Like, “I own a Ram. But you like Toyotas and Fords. Well, I read in Car & Driver that Toyotas won their last “best of,” so given the choice, I’d buy the Toyota truck vs the Ford. But know that there have been some issues in the past with Toyota trucks that now have been fixed. Check issues #244 and #398 on that.”
Guys…sighUh, I’ll politely point out the irony here?
Ok, really guys (mhwahahahah!) buy a Kahles! Lol
A joke like a lead balloon. Ok, I’m out for a while.
A joke like a lead balloon. Ok, I’m out for a while.
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