keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000

[QuietShootr]

I am trying to work up a good F-class load that will keep the 178 AMAX supersonic to 1000. Depending on which ballistic program I consult, I get different answers. BulletFlight thinks it's OK, and Shooter says it goes subsonic about 950 when started at 2550.

Can anyone help?

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000

What's your atmospherics? That will dictate.

A load doesn't necessarily need to be supersonic to be accurate.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000

Quietshootr,

You should post this in the F-class forum...you'll get more pointed answers.

I have to ask the following questions:
1. Why do you want to shoot this bullet out to 1,000yards? There are much better bullets for shooting 1,000yards. Not that it cant be done, but this is a poor choice for 1,000yards.
2. What rifle barrel length will you be employing?
3. What caliber rifle will you be shooting?

Let's start with the above questions and go from there.

 

[Rob01]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000

Put some more or different powder in the case.

Seriously 2550fps is a little slow. Did you hit pressure? What set up you running for rifle and load?

 

[repiv]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000

I get just over 2700 fps with the 178 AMAX in a .308. I would agree 2550 is really slow.
24" barrel Rem 700 5R
44.8 gr Varget
CCIBR2 Primers
Lapua Cases
2.838 COAL (fits mag)
Redding Type S FL Competition die set, no expander
1 thou neck tension

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000

I can get 2530 without pushing from my 16 inch tube at 4k asl. With more barrel you should be able to do much better.

 

[QuietShootr]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: repiv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I get just over 2700 fps with the 178 AMAX in a .308. I would agree 2550 is really slow.
24" barrel Rem 700 5R
44.8 gr Varget
CCIBR2 Primers
Lapua Cases
2.838 COAL (fits mag)
Redding Type S FL Competition die set, no expander
1 thou neck tension </div></div>

I found that 43.0 is unbelievably accurate, which is why I was running it. However, I'm also having ES problems that are going to cause me trouble at a K. My COAL has been 2.800" all along.

I now have Lapua brass as of yesterday, and the reloading gear is all Redding. I'm going to try your load today since I have all the components.

Other details: 24" barrel, 700' elevation, 40%RH, temp 73 degrees F, baro 29.94.

I tried to address the ES problem with Federal Magnum Match primers, which whipped it soundly (ES is 8 fps with those primers) but since I was having trouble chronographing from prone the accuracy is questionable at best. I'm going to rework the setup today so I can chrono from the prone.

Anyway - why would you say the 178 is a bad bullet for 1000? That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that.

ETA for Rob's questions:
24" FN A3G
Redding T7 with Redding dies, FL and neck (I have been neck sizing only after the first firing)
178gr AMAX
I have CCI BR-2s, Federal 210s, Federal GM215Ms, and WLRs available.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000

i always ran 43gr of varget with 178amax in my schneider 1/12 barrel. had excellent accuracy usually .5 or better. the amax is a more then capable bullet at 1k. don't beleive that horseshit.

my load ran 2610 on the money and was supersonic to 1k in all but super cold winter. i am not sure why you guys get all wrapped around the axle with this es and sd shit. work a load and shoot it especially at distance. the guna and load will tell you what you need to hear. have you proved your velocity with your dope instead of the chrono?

unless you have a dopler radar chrono i just don't waste my time even messing with them. find a load that performs and prove it out to distance.

 

[bcrich]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000

178amax not good at 1k? My rifle disagrees and has gotten me a few 1st -3rd place certificates at our local matches, it's a good enough choice for me!!!

 

[QuietShootr]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000 (F-Class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killswitch engage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i always ran 43gr of varget with 178amax in my schneider 1/12 barrel. had excellent accuracy usually .5 or better. the amax is a more then capable bullet at 1k. don't beleive that horseshit.

my load ran 2610 on the money and was supersonic to 1k in all but super cold winter. i am not sure why you guys get all wrapped around the axle with this es and sd shit. work a load and shoot it especially at distance. the guna and load will tell you what you need to hear. have you proved your velocity with your dope instead of the chrono?

unless you have a dopler radar chrono i just don't waste my time even messing with them. find a load that performs and prove it out to distance. </div></div>

OK - that's kind of what I wanted to hear. I have run the numbers with four different ballistic programs and gotten four different answers, so I am just going to go with the most accurately grouping load and shoot the motherfucker and see what happens.

For comparison purposes -
Speed of sound at 80 degrees at my location - 1138 fps.
Starting velocity 2550 fps at 80 degrees, 700' altitude:

BulletFlight says at 1000: V=1196, 11.8mrad of elevation to get from 100 to 1000.
Ballistic FTE: V=1783 (WTF??) 8.34mrad (this is obviously fucked.)
Shooter: V=1104.4, 12.1mrad
Nightforce - V-1201, 11.7mrad

So - I'm in agreement with the 'fuck it, get out and shoot it' as far as the velocity predictions because the software is in such disagreement. But the ES is a concern, because of the vertical dispersion at 1000. Research has shown me that to actually be competitive you need to have a velocity ES of under 10, and more like 6-7 if you can swing it.

Thoughts, flames, whatever? Mods, move to F-class forum if you think it's appropriate.

TIA
QS

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000 (F-Class

again....throw the fucking chrono aside. work a good load the shoots well @ 100. take it to 500, 700, 1000 and prove it. you want the real world data. once you have your dope at those distances and if it groups as well as you like use the muzzle velocity calculation to tell you your speed. that es/sd just ain't worth 2 shits to me from a $100 chrono.

 

[BCP]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000 (F-Class

Weighing your brass and hand-weighing charges will help but a well-developed load is key. Also you want 2600fps minimum and more is always better.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000 (F-Class

in my opinion when you are taking a cartridge to the extreme and a 178amax running 2550 to 1k is extreme being at the outer edge of its capability, you are gonna see weird shit happen. if you are worried about solid 1k performance you are not gonna get it with a load that slow thats on the edge of capability. why don't you push the load higher?

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000 (F-Class

Quietshooter,

For F-class, all else being equal (marksmanship fundamentals in place, reloading techniques unquestioned, proper equipment squared away, etc) the key is reading the wind, and breaking the shot such that you remain in the x-ring (3inches for 600yards, and 5inches at 1,000yards). In other words, wind drift is the biggest impediment to 1st place, and your bullet's BC is a major variable ([perhaps THE major variable) you have against the wind.

The 178AMAX, while a fine bullet for midrange work, is not optimal (or even suitable) for 1,000yards F-class. For tactical competitions, it'll work fine, but you won't be competitive in F-class.

Additionally, your 24" barrel is on the short side for F-class (think 30" or longer) but that's a different subject.

There are much better bullets with higher BC better suited for F-class such as (Hornady 178 HPBT, Hornady 208AMAX, Hornady 225gr HPBT, Berger 168 hybrid, 185 hybrid, 210gr VLD, 230gr hybrid)...The top shooters will be shooting one of these bullets (unless the match restricts you to 155s).

For instance,

178AMAX, G1 BC = .495
230gr Hybrid G1 BC = .743

You can run any of the aforementioned bullets in JBM and convince urself that the 178AMAX is not your candidate...

I'm not trying to be a jerk, i too am new to F-class, i have a 30" Brux barrel on the way, and i'm trying to decide on which of the bullets above i want to standardize on. You can count on one thing though..it won't be the 178AMAX.

You can however, show up with what u got, shoot a few matches, make mistakes and improve like everyone else. However, if you havent bought thousands of bullets yet, then consider this post an intervention...dont standardize on the 178AMAX...

Regards,

 

[QuietShootr]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000 (F-Class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killswitch engage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">again....throw the fucking chrono aside. work a good load the shoots well @ 100. take it to 500, 700, 1000 and prove it. you want the real world data. once you have your dope at those distances and if it groups as well as you like use the muzzle velocity calculation to tell you your speed. that es/sd just ain't worth 2 shits to me from a $100 chrono.

</div></div>

It's not a $100 chrono, it's a PACT XP Professional with IR screens.

 

[QuietShootr]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000 (F-Class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quietshooter,

For F-class, all else being equal (marksmanship fundamentals in place, reloading techniques unquestioned, proper equipment squared away, etc) the key is reading the wind, and breaking the shot such that you remain in the x-ring (3inches for 600yards, and 5inches at 1,000yards). In other words, wind drift is the biggest impediment to 1st place, and your bullet's BC is a major variable ([perhaps THE major variable) you have against the wind.

The 178AMAX, while a fine bullet for midrange work, is not optimal (or even suitable) for 1,000yards F-class. For tactical competitions, it'll work fine, but you won't be competitive in F-class.

Additionally, your 24" barrel is on the short side for F-class (think 30" or longer) but that's a different subject.

There are much better bullets with higher BC better suited for F-class such as (Hornady 178 HPBT, Hornady 208AMAX, Hornady 225gr HPBT, Berger 168 hybrid, 185 hybrid, 210gr VLD, 230gr hybrid)...The top shooters will be shooting one of these bullets (unless the match restricts you to 155s).

For instance,

178AMAX, G1 BC = .495
230gr Hybrid G1 BC = .743

You can run any of the aforementioned bullets in JBM and convince urself that the 178AMAX is not your candidate...

I'm not trying to be a jerk, i too am new to F-class, i have a 30" Brux barrel on the way, and i'm trying to decide on which of the bullets above i want to standardize on. You can count on one thing though..it won't be the 178AMAX.

You can however, show up with what u got, shoot a few matches, make mistakes and improve like everyone else. However, if you havent bought thousands of bullets yet, then consider this post an intervention...dont standardize on the 178AMAX...

Regards, </div></div>

F-class is not what I intended for the gun, it just happens to be a good place to get some 1000 yard trigger time. I'll try the 178HPBTs if they're that much better than the AMAXs at 1000.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000 (F-Class

Quietshooter,

The 178HPBT has a G1 bc of .530. The 178AMAX = .495.

If you run both in JBM, assuming an MV of 2,700ft/s,

yields:

178AMX at 2700ft/s:
600 -95.0 -15.1 33.2 5.3 1701.7 1.524 1144.3 0.840 147.9 23.5
700 -143.6 -19.6 47.1 6.4 1563.3 1.400 965.8 1.024 180.2 24.6
800 -206.5 -24.6 64.2 7.7 1436.0 1.286 814.9 1.224 215.5 25.7
900 -286.2 -30.4 84.7 9.0 1321.4 1.184 690.0 1.442 253.9 26.9
1000 -385.9 -36.9 108.9 10.4 1221.7 1.094 589.9 1.679 295.5 28.2

178HPBT at 2700ft/s:
600 -92.3 -14.7 30.6 4.9 1758.9 1.575 1222.6 0.826 145.4 23.1
700 -138.9 -18.9 43.3 5.9 1625.7 1.456 1044.4 1.004 176.6 24.1
800 -198.6 -23.7 58.8 7.0 1501.5 1.345 890.9 1.196 210.4 25.1
900 -273.8 -29.0 77.4 8.2 1387.6 1.243 760.9 1.404 247.0 26.2
1000 -367.0 -35.0 99.3 9.5 1285.6 1.152 653.2 1.628 286.6 27.4

208AMAX at 2600ft/s:
600 -93.8 -14.9 25.6 4.1 1830.9 1.640 1547.9 0.825 145.2 23.1
700 -139.2 -19.0 35.9 4.9 1717.9 1.539 1362.8 0.994 175.0 23.9
800 -196.5 -23.5 48.4 5.8 1610.4 1.442 1197.6 1.174 206.7 24.7
900 -267.2 -28.4 63.2 6.7 1509.1 1.352 1051.6 1.367 240.6 25.5
1000 -353.2 -33.7 80.5 7.7 1414.6 1.267 924.0 1.572 276.7 26.4

230gr Target Hybrid at 2500ft/s:
600 -98.4 -15.7 23.3 3.7 1837.9 1.646 1724.9 0.839 147.7 23.5
700 -145.1 -19.8 32.5 4.4 1737.3 1.556 1541.1 1.007 177.3 24.2
800 -203.3 -24.3 43.7 5.2 1639.1 1.468 1371.8 1.185 208.6 24.9
900 -274.5 -29.1 57.0 6.0 1543.3 1.382 1216.2 1.374 241.8 25.7
1000 -360.3 -34.4 72.6 6.9 1450.1 1.299 1073.6 1.574 277.1 26.5


The third number in the colum above is the wind drift. You can see how poorly the 178AMAX stacks up against the bullets i referenced earlier. Shooting such a bullet at the low velocities you initially mentioned (2,550ft/s) is not only potentially dangerous to the target pullers downrange (transonic bullets being thrown around by the wind), but will lead to frustration on your part as you may not be able to stay in the scoring rings...that is if the range safety officers dont pull you from the firing line because of the sideways impact on the target.

When you are shooting that far, the wind is the thing...it is seldom not-windy, and seldom uniform...its always changing speeds, direction, velocity, as the bullet travels downrange...The big bullets buck winds better than the lighter bullets in a given caliber. If you want to potentially get serious about the sport, you should know that shooting the 155s & 175s will be an impediment to doing well. Not saying you wont get whooped by the pros no matter what you shoot, but at least the heavy bullets allow you to minimize the annoying tendency on finding yourself from one side of the target to the other with slight changes to ur windage clicks.

Again, not trying to b a jerk or discourage you, just letting you know that tactical shooting and F-class shooting are worlds apart in terms of precision and accuracy requirements...one of the poster claimed to have won a 1,000yard competition at this range shooting 178AMAX, but i promise you it wasn't an official F-class competition. If it was, then he needs to go coach the US F-class team on the magic to beating the wind with comparatively low BC bullets at modest velocity.

If you must shoot the 178 AMAX, do so at an accuracy node consistent with the highest velocity possible with low ES...

 

[repiv]

Re: keeping 178gr AMAX supersonic at 1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuietShootr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: repiv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I get just over 2700 fps with the 178 AMAX in a .308. I would agree 2550 is really slow.
24" barrel Rem 700 5R
44.8 gr Varget
CCIBR2 Primers
Lapua Cases
2.838 COAL (fits mag)
Redding Type S FL Competition die set, no expander
1 thou neck tension </div></div>

I found that 43.0 is unbelievably accurate, which is why I was running it. However, I'm also having ES problems that are going to cause me trouble at a K. My COAL has been 2.800" all along.

I now have Lapua brass as of yesterday, and the reloading gear is all Redding. I'm going to try your load today since I have all the components.

Other details: 24" barrel, 700' elevation, 40%RH, temp 73 degrees F, baro 29.94.

I tried to address the ES problem with Federal Magnum Match primers, which whipped it soundly (ES is 8 fps with those primers) but since I was having trouble chronographing from prone the accuracy is questionable at best. I'm going to rework the setup today so I can chrono from the prone.

Anyway - why would you say the 178 is a bad bullet for 1000? That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that.

ETA for Rob's questions:
24" FN A3G
Redding T7 with Redding dies, FL and neck (I have been neck sizing only after the first firing)
178gr AMAX
I have CCI BR-2s, Federal 210s, Federal GM215Ms, and WLRs available. </div></div>


I also hit a node at 43 or 43.1 (dont remember) but I wanted more speed. I didnt have any pressure signs so I worked up to the next node. I hit 44.8 and was very happy.

This is the last day of load testing.