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Kicking around the .375 E to replace 50 cal. in the ELR-SR role.
- Thread starter Terry Cross
- Start date
Apples to Oranges Comparison on so many levels!
1 - You are firing a 350-400 grain bullet in the .375 EnABLER versus firing a 650-750 grain in the .50 BMG. That significant increase in bullet weight either gives you the ability to have a larger "payload" in the bullet, or it can allow the bullet to do more damage when it impacts. If my mission is antimaterial, and that was a primary mission for the .50, I would rather have the ability to be hitting my target with twice the bullet weight, or a specialized payload (Mk 211). Also, if I was a bad guy hiding behind "cover", I would be a lot more worried if someone was firing an armor piercing or explosive .50 BMG round at me, versus some type of a .375 "match round" which is most likely just going to break up on impact with a hard surface. Until someone is actually producing .375 bullets with comparable .50 BMG bullet payloads, it is not even close to being a fair comparison.
2 - As called out by a number of people, the bullets used in the comparisons have been absolutely ridiculous! Per the chart below created by AB, they have been using the M33 Ball as the baseline comparison for the .50 BMG, while using the highest BC Bullets available for the .375 EnABLER. in comparison, M33 Ball = 0.348 versus 750 AMAX = 0.486, there are also .50s that have a BC that exceeds 0.500 like Cutting Edge.
Once again, trying to compare the capabilities of something coming out of the Extreme Long Range Sniper Rifle (ELR-SR) to the existing .50 BMG rifles is not anywhere close to a fair comparison. Humping/maneuvering with a M107 is a bitch, but the amount of carnage/damage that you can inflict with one is not going to be currently matched by anything coming out of the ELR-SR solicitation!
IMHO, too many decision makers are just looking at numbers on paper, and they are watching paper or steel targets being shot in the open. They have forgotten about, or never learned from, the real world engagements that have occurred over the last 20 years. If you couldn't eliminate, or make the enemy combat ineffective, with a M107, then it was time to call for a fire mission! The M107 in reality is a dated design, but why is no one working on updating its design/function, or the design/function of the current .50 BMG ammo? Hell, there is not even a real "sniper/long range round" for the .50 BMG in current inventory, SOCOM were pretty much the only ones that really had anything, everyone else was firing machine gun ammo out of their M107s!
The Extreme Long Range Sniper Rifle (ELR-SR) firing a .375 could obviously have its place in the inventory, and it would be well suited for many applications/missions, but IMHO don't fool yourself into think that you are going to get the same capabilities out of it as the existing .50s.
I am also not even going to mention all of the logistical issues that would come along with introducing another caliber round. It wasn't the best option, but if you were in a jam in the field, you could always find some .50 BMG machine gun ammo to delink and run through your M107. What is the chances that you are going to find some cans of .375 EnABLER laying around on the battle field if you need it?
1 - You are firing a 350-400 grain bullet in the .375 EnABLER versus firing a 650-750 grain in the .50 BMG. That significant increase in bullet weight either gives you the ability to have a larger "payload" in the bullet, or it can allow the bullet to do more damage when it impacts. If my mission is antimaterial, and that was a primary mission for the .50, I would rather have the ability to be hitting my target with twice the bullet weight, or a specialized payload (Mk 211). Also, if I was a bad guy hiding behind "cover", I would be a lot more worried if someone was firing an armor piercing or explosive .50 BMG round at me, versus some type of a .375 "match round" which is most likely just going to break up on impact with a hard surface. Until someone is actually producing .375 bullets with comparable .50 BMG bullet payloads, it is not even close to being a fair comparison.
2 - As called out by a number of people, the bullets used in the comparisons have been absolutely ridiculous! Per the chart below created by AB, they have been using the M33 Ball as the baseline comparison for the .50 BMG, while using the highest BC Bullets available for the .375 EnABLER. in comparison, M33 Ball = 0.348 versus 750 AMAX = 0.486, there are also .50s that have a BC that exceeds 0.500 like Cutting Edge.
IMHO, too many decision makers are just looking at numbers on paper, and they are watching paper or steel targets being shot in the open. They have forgotten about, or never learned from, the real world engagements that have occurred over the last 20 years. If you couldn't eliminate, or make the enemy combat ineffective, with a M107, then it was time to call for a fire mission! The M107 in reality is a dated design, but why is no one working on updating its design/function, or the design/function of the current .50 BMG ammo? Hell, there is not even a real "sniper/long range round" for the .50 BMG in current inventory, SOCOM were pretty much the only ones that really had anything, everyone else was firing machine gun ammo out of their M107s!
The Extreme Long Range Sniper Rifle (ELR-SR) firing a .375 could obviously have its place in the inventory, and it would be well suited for many applications/missions, but IMHO don't fool yourself into think that you are going to get the same capabilities out of it as the existing .50s.
I am also not even going to mention all of the logistical issues that would come along with introducing another caliber round. It wasn't the best option, but if you were in a jam in the field, you could always find some .50 BMG machine gun ammo to delink and run through your M107. What is the chances that you are going to find some cans of .375 EnABLER laying around on the battle field if you need it?
Well whats happening with lake city may cause a issue with ALL ammo before it's all over with. Only time will tell.
There’s nothing wrong with comparing apples to oranges. Discretize, categorize, and normalize. We do it all the time in statistics and data science.
But, the bullet comparison was shady and disingenuous.
Shady and disingenuous? Why not that's what most companies do when marketing a product it's called liberal math. Also known as Hornady math .
That’s business math. They’ll go as far as to practically kill us for a 2% return. We could derail this thread and talk about all the industries doing it.
However, the gun companies; the supposed red, white and blue or god and country as they claim. The ones who claim to be against all the corruption. Well… they’re vultures nonetheless.
Alex - since the MRADELR is (apparently) only to be available in .416 Barrett and .375 EnABELR, I'm surprised that no one is putting up data comparing those two cartridges. You seem to have plenty of data, please post that comparison. Thanks.
Oscar. Doc already did that earlier in this thread. There is no sence In compairing them might as well compair a 223 to a 308.
Hm...I just checked all Doc's posts, twice, and found no mention of .416B. What post number are you referring to?
I think you're talking about the 338norma machine gun contract not the ELR SR rifle contract....
