Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

[jp67]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Let us do our best and see what Kowa decides.


I like the idea of a zoom instead of a X30, sometimes we do not need that much magnification.

 

[ChrisF]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!


I would like a zoom as well , but I think the design of the spotting scope as they are does not allow it to work in this case ?

 

[ranger1183]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys don't think like Dennis does... </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="color: #FF0000">Horus gets off on suing people over their reticles.</span></span></span> He has the means, including the money to pursue it, and something you don't seem to understand, he takes pleasure in it. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="color: #FF0000">Talk of suing people was the highlight of his conversation at Shot.</span></span></span></div></div>

take this to heart. Horus (Dennis) doesn't share and definately doesn't play nice with others!






you'd be better off going with this reticle instead.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Keep working to take this forward guys, no need to copy or get close to copying, we are always critical of knock offs on this site so let's stay true. Take the advice and move on.

 

[MTETM]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MTETM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like the combination of Mark's layout with LL's fine hash marks with the .25 mil graduations on 1 side of the horizontal and vertical line. I would like the .5 and 1.o mil lines to be "longer" then the .25's.

I agree the reticle needs to be in the lower 1/3 of the the FOV. I would like a 27 or 30X Extended Eye Relief eyepiece.
</div></div>

I will stick with these comments, but if you want a "grid" why not a single set of small dots on the diagonal from the center of the "cross" to where the corners would be. This would bisect the large open area and provide a closer measurement reference for low and wide shots. Set the line of dots at 1 mil or .5 mil...
Similar in theory to the "Z but without the bottom line.

I do hope they make the eye piece and make it available of our 821's!

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I think we need to go ahead and go parallel path on development here. Let's finish off the cross and then we can discuss the "grid" and present both to Kowa. I like the grid a lot, but it looks like there are potential infringement issues with it.

Out of curiosity... I am wondering if Horus ever sued Premier over the Gen II XR reticle?

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Out of curiosity... I am wondering if Horus ever sued Premier over the Gen II XR reticle? </div></div>

I like the one that loosely resembles the GenIIXR, basically because <span style="font-weight: bold">anything Horus sucks ass</span> on principle.
WHich of Dennis's chrony's inside DOD made sure the PSR optic submission had to have pretty much a Horus by definition?

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK... here is a preliminary design. KISS.

I included a close up of the left handed side of the horizontal post.

Closeup

Comments are welcome... </div></div>

I really like this design. Simple and easy to read.
I would have considered to move the fine hash marks to the center of the reticle, as you'll be using those primarily for mil'ing you would want it as close to the optical center as possible to utilize the best part of the optic.
Jo </div></div>

This is good value, although I what about putting a bit more length in the upper vertical line? I know a lot of spotted shots fall low but..

I'm a numbers fan as well - it's a speedy way to reference, rather than count mils. But that's only my opinion.

Anything grid-ish should be avoided, unless it's very light. Busy reticles are difficult to manage and are distracting.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

If folks want more vertical, then just put an off the shelf riflescope reticle in....

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK... here is a preliminary design. KISS.

I included a close up of the left handed side of the horizontal post.

Closeup

Comments are welcome... </div></div>This one looks really good to me. I'm usually sinking the target's image in the bottom 1/3 of the scope anyhow for trace observation at the top of the image, so this would really work for my style.

 

[JL]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Personally I don't like the FinnArmy reticle... reminds me of the DTAC with everything in there...

Range this, no wait you can range this way, no wait, you can range this way, now aim this way, oops, no rifle, so point at this while ranging with, ah, never mind.

Too buys...

it only needs 1 thing, not 3 or more... </div></div>

"L" is for milling (small) targets in daylight and good weather.
"T" mildot is for dusk/dark/bad visibility and calling impacts. Origo is in center of FOV. Photo someone linked kinda shows it wrong.
Stadimeter is sized for torso. Ment for situations where is no time to look cards or calculate ranges and rough range estimation is needed fast.

IMO there is no single scale line thickness that can work equally well in all milling situations.

 

[ChrisF]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!


IF you wanted a type of Horus reticle , simple have it made in China , Patents or no Patents , dosn't matter one bit in China , as NO one cares , and almost nothing is in forciable ,Opps .

Have it China made

 

[Wicked Weapons]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If folks want more vertical, then just put an off the shelf riflescope reticle in.... </div></div>

What would be the down side to just doing this? It's all I have in my rifle.

Why would I want or need something different in my spotter? Honestly, I don't know any better, that's why I'm asking.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

i realy like the design that you did carter with the dots removed and lines on one side of the line either top or bottom so they dont look the same as the other hash marks.

Can we just leave anything related to a Horris type design. after that small poll it was clear that the t would be the most popular and you have nailed a great design it is simple and can be used for spotting or ranging and it leaves the centre clear for general spotting i think it needs to stay clean and fresh and not resemble any other patented reticle because Kowa will just shelf the idea.

Remember if this looks like it will result in Kowa getting any greif they will just say see you dont bother we dont want to do it and that is not what we want.

The grids cover to much and i would not buy them.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I'll try a hash version when I get the chance.

 

[david777]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Remember if this looks like it will result in Kowa getting any greif they will just say see you dont bother we dont want to do it and that is not what we want.

</div></div>

Right on the money.

It is great everyone is here hashing ideas and collectively thinking this out, hopefully in the end Kowa can happily use some of the suggestions posited here. But in the end, I will be more than thrilled with even a simple mildot as it is way more than what is available now and any version will be more than welcome.

 

[LibertyOptics]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Guys,

I assure you Kowa is not looking to get sued or stir the pot over this. They are offering up the opportunity to get your feedback on a spotter reticle for their eyepieces for their awesome spotting scopes. Let's not push the envelope and have them dance around patents and trademarks because it will not go down like that. While they express an interest in bringing something to market, butting heads is not in the game plan. Let's KISS and let something develop that dovetails nicely with their spotters without the overt risk of litigation. This will benefit all in the long run

Scott

 

[LibertyOptics]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Addendum: David777 is right, anything that properly functions as a rangefinding reticle in the Kowa spotters will be a huge step for them, and us. But it needs to be pretty painless for Kowa. You have to understand, politically speaking, Kowa the Japanese factory would not be excited about this, at all. "They" don't like "us" having military style stuff. It would be more of Kowa USA calling in a favor, for the US market, as a business decision. Remove the "tactical" mindset and think target/competition hint hint

 

[Zanshin]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I do not believe that Kowa is supporting (i.e. making lenses) for the 821 series anymore after they switched to the 82SV.

The 60/66/82 series have 3 lens choices that I know of; 25 long eye relief, 30 Wide Angle, and 20-60 variable zoom. I think the 77/88 series has the same line up.

Is Kowa going to adapt an existing lense to add the reticle design or design an entirely new lens? I see people suggesting a 30 power lens or something variable power. I'm wondering what the options or limitations are in the lens.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I was thinking the 30 wide angle as opposed to the 25 long relief.

 

[DP425]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

IMO-

Keep it simple, keep the bullshit to a minimum. Avoid any sort of grid pattern as it's looking for conflict. Everyone talks about wanting mildots because it's easier, but they also want stadia lines... that clutters everything. Pick one and go with it.

I'm not really sure how someone can really do the job as a spotter with 1/2 of their scope filled with 10 lines, a crap load of stadia, numbers and dots. As LL said- you put too much shit in there and you're reducing the effectiveness, not enhancing it.

I'm just looking at this from a real-world field use prospective. There's already too much going on to be trying to focus on which group of crap in your FOV you're going to use.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

By popular demand, with hashes only (no mildots)

And a closeup

And closer

And here with no posts in the center .5 mils

And here with fine subtensions in the center

I know the center subtensions look wierd being centered unlike the rest, but I had to do that or the would make a square in the upper left corner of the center of the reticle.

Opinions?

 

[MTETM]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Nice work.
The last one looks great with the fine subtension's in the center.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm not really sure how someone can really do the job as a spotter with 1/2 of their scope filled with 10 lines, a crap load of stadia, numbers and dots. As LL said- you put too much shit in there and you're reducing the effectiveness, not enhancing it.
</div></div>

I disagree. I think with dots as opposed to the more Horus-like grid with all of the lines and with the reticle only in the bottom 1/3 of the FOV, it works pretty well.

BUT the fact that Horus was referenced in the design process coupled with the fact that Dennis likes to sue, it makes sense to avoid it altogether. I like the "dots" design a little bit better but this cross design is not only very useful, it is pretty inventive and unique. No lawsuits and a very good design. I like that.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MTETM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice work.
The last one looks great with the fine subtension's in the center.</div></div>

You like that? It is growing on me a little. I think it looks a little busy. Those are .1 mil subtensions. maybe it would look less busy if for the first mil only, I used .2 mil subtensions?

 

[DP425]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Subtensions in the center I'd limit to only two lines of the reticle, one vertical, one horizontal. And I don't see a need to go beyond .5 worth of subtensions. You already have .5 stadia, so for ranging purposes there is nothing you cannot do with .5 worth of subtensions in .1 increments.

The way it's set up could potentially be useful for making shot calls, but you should be able to eye-ball it easy enough if it's .2 left.


That's just my thoughts though. I don't see anything you've done that would make these reticles a pain to use. They would work just fine. But I must say, I've never been a huge fan of the blanked out center. Again, still isn't detrimental to use- it's just a personal thing; I don't care for the void. Doesn't effect the use really.

 

[DP425]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm not really sure how someone can really do the job as a spotter with 1/2 of their scope filled with 10 lines, a crap load of stadia, numbers and dots. As LL said- you put too much shit in there and you're reducing the effectiveness, not enhancing it.
</div></div>

I disagree. I think with dots as opposed to the more Horus-like grid with all of the lines and with the reticle only in the bottom 1/3 of the FOV, it works pretty well.

BUT the fact that Horus was referenced in the design process coupled with the fact that Dennis likes to sue, it makes sense to avoid it altogether. I like the "dots" design a little bit better but this cross design is not only very useful, it is pretty inventive and unique. No lawsuits and a very good design. I like that. </div></div>

I think you misunderstood me. The horus set-ups can be effective- it is ONE reticle design (but should still be small). I was referencing more along the spotter 60 where the bottom half of the FOV is packed full of shit with no less than 3 separate reticles and/or measuring apprentices.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

The Spotter 60 comes with the "L" as the default. Perhaps you looked through a version with a custom reticle or are you talking about the MSR?

Does anyone else have any opinions on the center of the reticle? Minimal, gap, or fine subtensions? Anybody think the fine subtensions look funky and have some suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

While wide angle is nice, the LER is great for actually shooting if you happen to wear eye protection!

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I am sloppy about eye protection when I am hunting. At the range, I just raise the glasses a little, but you are right... in tactical comps where eye pro is required, the long relief is probably more important.

The only problem is that now I might have to rescale the reticle.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

In the images above, the 4 to 5 mil mark can have the fine subtensions and you can even do it 5 to 6, so in all directions around the 5 mil mark you have fine tuning subtensions.

The ends are good too, but bring it a bit closer to the middle would be better.

 

[cjgemm]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sloppy about eye protection when I am hunting. At the range, I just raise the glasses a little, but you are right... in tactical comps where eye pro is required, the long relief is probably more important.

The only problem is that now I might have to rescale the reticle. </div></div>


+1 on the LER

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sloppy about eye protection when I am hunting. At the range, I just raise the glasses a little, .... </div></div>

Buddy I shoot with has a pair of Oakleys with a giant gouge in them from an untoward event happening at the range, great reminder.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

For me, I have the 30X Zeiss Mil Reticle Eye piece for my 65T as well we have a Spotter 60... I find in the high heat and in some other situations 30X is a bit much and I need to use the Spotter 60 on 20X to see better.

25X would be max in my opinion, simply because at times it magnifies the problems too much on 30X.

There is a reason a lot of spotters go to 15X, too much can be a bad thing, especially farther out.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the images above, the 4 to 5 mil mark can have the fine subtensions and you can even do it 5 to 6, so in all directions around the 5 mil mark you have fine tuning subtensions.

The ends are good too, but bring it a bit closer to the middle would be better. </div></div>

What about the center. Do you like them in the center or not?

 

[CoryT]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

The TE-20H 25x would be the ideal eyepiece. FOV is 120' at 1000 yards, (2.3 deg). By comparison, the 30x is 137', so the LER loses a little FOV, but the scale of your layouts is hardly affected.

I'd put a .5 at the center, then your fine .2 or .1 at the 4-5 mil mark. Leave the center solid, not open space.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sloppy about eye protection when I am hunting. At the range, I just raise the glasses a little, .... </div></div>

Buddy I shoot with has a pair of Oakleys with a giant gouge in them from an untoward event happening at the range, great reminder.</div></div>

Was this during load development?

Funny thing is that I am crazy strict about ear protection. I have recently gone to double protection... I guess because the effect is more immediate.

 

[DP425]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Spotter 60 comes with the "L" as the default. Perhaps you looked through a version with a custom reticle or are you talking about the MSR?

Does anyone else have any opinions on the center of the reticle? Minimal, gap, or fine subtensions? Anybody think the fine subtensions look funky and have some suggestions?

Thanks! </div></div>


Might have been the MSR

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Funny thing is that I am crazy strict about ear protection. I have recently gone to double protection... I guess because the effect is more immediate. </div></div>

Actually, I think it was during a match, but I wasn't there-just have seen the glasses and heard the tale.

Stay strict on ear protection-they'll come in handy if God forbid anything happens to your eyes

I think 25LER would be great, and zoom would cause issues with the application being a retrofit.

 

[Zanshin]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

The TSE-17HD 25x LER (for the 600/660/82SV) runs about $235
The TE-20H 25x LER (for the 770 and 880) runs about $345

I wonder how much would the addition of a reticle in the lens bump the price?

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

And here we go:

I stuck the fine subtensions on either side of every 5 mil. It makes the 5 mil points easier to find.

Closer:

What do y'all think?

I wonder if having all of those fine subtensions adds to the cost? I had never thought of it before, but it would have to add to the overall complexity of construction.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zanshin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The TSE-17HD 25x LER (for the 600/660/82SV) runs about $235
The TE-20H 25x LER (for the 770 and 880) runs about $345

I wonder how much would the addition of a reticle in the lens bump the price?

</div></div>

That's a very good question.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And here we go:

I stuck the fine subtensions on either side of every 5 mil. It makes the 5 mil points easier to find.

Closer:

What do y'all think?

I wonder if having all of those fine subtensions adds to the cost? I had never thought of it before, but it would have to add to the overall complexity of construction.</div></div>

Winner, i would buy that, more than one.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

wow....my Kowa might still have life.....

 

[DP425]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Yeah buddy, I think you really hit the nail with that one!

Get this thing in motion now!

 

[MTETM]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I am in...the last version looks great.
Now, the question is which scope will they make the eye piece for....?

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And here we go:

I stuck the fine subtensions on either side of every 5 mil. It makes the 5 mil points easier to find.

Closer:

What do y'all think?

I wonder if having all of those fine subtensions adds to the cost? I had never thought of it before, but it would have to add to the overall complexity of construction.</div></div>

Winner, i would buy that, more than one. </div></div>

I agree go with this reticle and the 25 power LER would be the best because it is more forgiving in regards to eye relief and position and there is not a lot of FOV lost from the 30 power wide angle.

Please find out if this can be made and please stay away from any Mill Dots as they block to much out i like that you have .1 mills there for finer ranging and measuring.

Also Scott do we have to place an order in? if you need pre orders for this to go ahead let us know i want one yesterday LOL

 

[ChrisF]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!


Looks good , but where are the Mildots ? ( thats a joke , in case you did not get IT ) .

I would like it to be numbered , say 2 , 4 , 6 etc on horizontal & vertical .

Also as I mentioned before , maybe look at allowing it to work with a camera adapter ( digital or vid ) , be good for lone shooters .


Cheers Chris

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I've got an 88mm prominar that needs this like a drowning man needs air...

 

[JL]

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we need to go ahead and go parallel path on development here. Let's finish off the cross and then we can discuss the "grid" and present both to Kowa. I like the grid a lot, but it looks like there are potential infringement issues with it.
</div></div>
Grid systems were used long before Horus even existed, so I wouldn't see any reason not to go with it if thats preferred design.
Risk of suing unfoundedly is to lose your own patent, if it turns out that similar system has been around already before patenting.

Similar "look-a-like" grids can be found from many places from RPG sights (Reticle of a PGO-7B, PGO-7B-2, PGO-7B-3) to even US WWII 75mm M3 (M70F telescope). Many tank sight, submarine periscope scale and so forth are using grids all based in same idea.
Secondly, identical measurement grids has been used in microscopes as well already decades. Since they are optical observation devices like scopes, I think Horus would be waisting their time with legal action- except if used reticle would be literally identical to Horus design.