Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

C

clmayfield

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
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Nov 14, 2008
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#1
Scott at Liberty Optics threw down the gauntlet and said that if we were interested in a reticle eyepiece from Kowa, Josh at Kowa needed input on the design ( post here http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2315339#Post2315339). I thought we could do a little collaborative design and knock this sucker out to insure that we have a reticle that everyone can live with and we get plenty of orders to make sure that Kowa continues to sell the piece.

Here is a quick first draft. The mathematician in me likese the Hensoldt Spotter 60 "L" design because it looks like a Cartesian coordinate system, but I think an "inverted L" design works better to keep an unobstructed view of the ground between the spotter and what he is looking at. Having the horizontal stadium up top seems to make sense.

KowaDraft1.jpg


I am still kind of wondering if I should continue the horizontal and vertical statdia so that there is a crosshair at the upper left. Then, you could actually "center" the crosshairs on a target and quickly tell the shooter which adjustments to make. Thoughts?

Mildots being a convention, I thought I would use mil dots and hashes. It is a little less distracting (and cleaner looking) than all hashes, but having mildots smaller than hashes is a little counter-intuitive, expecially for people who aren't used to using the combination. I put quarter mil marks for the first 2 mils because when you are ranging off of smaller objects, the difference between something that will measure, say, 1.2 mil and 1.3 mil will matter a lot more than something that is 3.2 vs 3.3 mil. I dropped the hashes after 5 mils for the same reason. I did put cross hashes over the mildots at 5 and 10 mils... that is a feature I like about the P4 reticle. It allows for very quick reference. I get lost all the time counting more than 4 or 5 mils, especially if I am not in a very stable position.

I don't know exactly how many mils we can fit in there and what kind of FOV we will have to work with. Does anyone have any preferences for magnification? I kind of like 35X. I assume we are going to want fixed maginification because it will be SFP.

Does anybody have any other ideas? I thought we could play around with this...
 
#5
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Why would you set the origin in the upper quadrant?
</div></div>

Good question. The idea is that the spotter would not be used solely for spotting and calling but also for ranging and observation. For observation, it is distracting to have the reticle at the center of your focus. This is why the Spotter 60 from Hensoldt employs an "L" shaped design.

That is the reason, but I am open to anything. My goal was to throw something out there to get us started. I really just want to facilitate a design. I figured we would start with brainstorming, then we would use a poll to come up with a general design direction, we would fine-tune the design, then have a poll for final design amongst a few alternatives, then have a final poll to see if enough people could live with the design. If not, back to the drawing board or abort.
 
#7
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!


For Heavens sake , get rid of the B*%%*y DOTS , go 30x , and just copy the FinnArmy one , and replace the dots on the center T with hash marks .

The MSR is good as well .

Also Kowa may want to look at this working on their smaller than 77mm spotter , the 66 or what ever is the next model down .


Cheers Chris
 
#8
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jp67</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I prefer hashes to dot and think the finnaccuracy MSR is a good idea.
It can be used for spotting and miling.
Beside that you have the best of both wolds, the crosshair and the L inverted shape
http://www.finnaccuracy.com/sb_pm2_MSR_special_reticle_en.html
http://www.finnaccuracy.com/kuvat/MSR/MSR_Datasheet.pdf

FOV_simulations_25x_tn.jpg
</div></div>

Would need to be on their game if they go to the .1 mrad. Could easily get to the point that you would not add anything and would become a blur. Perhaps if you went to that level os detail you need to have hashes that alternate or some that go through to the other side similar to the proposed.

Dont like the idea of the upsidedown L in that you would need to be looking up inside the scope to mil and the "best" glass should be in the middle.

Would this also fit all the KOWA's that are already out there?
 
#9
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

The word was it would be made for the 77mm & 88mm spotters ( I think these are HD glass models ) , thats why I said it should also be made for the smaller 66mm ? as well .
 
#10
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Ok, let's take a step back and figure out what our design objectives are. We need to find the target, range the target, and conduct a

post-mortem for our shots. I'll break that into 3 objectives:
1. Target acquisition and observation
2. Ranging and sizing
3. Calling shots

The ideal design for each of these would be different. Here is my idea of an ideal for each:
1. Target acquisition and observation - no reticle to interfere with observation
2. Ranging and sizing - a Horus-type grid with many subtensions going from fine to coarse and vice-versa
3. Calling shots - a centered cross-hair with subtensions, but fine enough that you can actually see the shot land

Here is my analysis of how each of these do on the 3 objectives (on a scale of 1-5 with 5 being great and 1 being poor):

Zeiss-Hensoldt-spotter-60.jpg

Hensoldt
#1 - 5
#2 - 4
#3 - 2

MSR_WINTER_15x.jpg

MSR
#1 - 2
#2 - 5
#3 - 4

IMG_1025.jpg

Horus
#1 - 2 - 3 depending on where the grid is located
#2 - 5
#3 - 3 - 4 (would be a 5, but the grid makes such a thick reticle, that the reticle gets in the way, it also depends on where grid is

located)


Cross-Hairs (not pictured... we have all seen them)
#1 - 3
#2 - 4
#3 - 4.5

Hmmm... upon analysis it looks like a modified cross-hair design might create the best compromise of the 3 objectives. I always like the Spotter 60 for its simplicity, but it looks like it fails at shot calling.

I kind of like the crosshair design here for efficiency:
finndotspotter40.jpg


What about a "T" that is below center and has fine subtensions at the bottom and sides? Then you get your ranging whiel also having plenty of clear real estate up top for observation. For shot calling, how much space do you really need? How often are shots off by more than 2 mils, for instance? Maybe more of a lower-case t with a tail up top would work for shot calling?
 
#11
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

The inverted "L" is very good, but I like things like my reticle in a spotter on the bottom of the FOV, because most of the time shots drop in below, and I can read the adjustments easier...

I think being high and up out of the way, is too much out of the way...

I would also tell you to consider an upside down "T" with center being a bit off center... I can make it but I am bit busy, I have an idea of what I am thinking, but basically something similar to the L but in a T formation underneath.
 
#12
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

A "Z" works well too... where you can off center the middle and then have it in a Z pattern to use what you see in the picture above my first post.

Basically a cleaner center with break downs at the top and bottom then fine adjustments off to the sides.
 
#13
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I can assure you as well that the "L" shaped Hensoldt reticle is perfectly usable for calling shots. Work with a system and get to know it, then there arent really that many limitations with it.
 
#14
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A "Z" works well too... where you can off center the middle and then have it in a Z pattern to use what you see in the picture above my first post.

Basically a cleaner center with break downs at the top and bottom then fine adjustments off to the sides. </div></div>

I am not picturing the "Z," but I like a low "T." I think that is a great idea and can be made to look really clean.
 
#15
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HDC-Deadly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can assure you as well that the "L" shaped Hensoldt reticle is perfectly usable for calling shots. Work with a system and get to know it, then there arent really that many limitations with it. </div></div>

I am sure you can use it for that, but not ideally suited. You either need to center the shot in the corner or measure to a stadium way over. Don't get me wrong... I liked it enough to use parts of it in my design above, but upon further thought, there are areas that it might not be as great for.
 
#16
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Carter,

What i fail to see though is if you are saying that the Spotter 60 "L" shaped reticle is less than ideal due to its placement in the field of view, then why did you just invert the "L"?

I can also take a picture of how a centered Gen 2 Mildot reticle really dicks with the FOV in a Spotter if you would like.

What I was getting at is that if you know where the shot impacted why not just move the junction of the reticle to the POA and then measure to the POI?

I am not trying to argue just trying to give some insight. Have you looked through a Spotter 60 or just going off of internet pictures of the reticle? In theory it looks like it would be to far in the edge of the FOV to use, but in reality its in a perfect position to be used for milling and calling shots and corrections.
 
#17
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For Heavens sake , get rid of the B*%%*y DOTS , go 30x , and just copy the FinnArmy one , and replace the dots on the center T with hash marks .
The MSR is good as well .
Also Kowa may want to look at this working on their smaller than 77mm spotter , the 66 or what ever is the next model down .
Cheers Chris </div></div>

I agree completely with everything you said!!!

I'd love a reticle in my Kowa 612. I don't think most carry the big Kowa's for field use...
 
#18
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I would be very much in favor of a T in the bottom 1/3 FOV, actually a crucifix with perhaps 2 mil above the horizontal and 3 mil below. All hash marks, .2 spacing, fixed 30x, long eye relief. I'll take it in whatever scope they care to make it for, thank you very much. Since it would replace my Pentax 80ED, the 77 would be fine, I've got field scopes already.
 
#19
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Okay, really. really quick, something like this...

treticle.jpg


You can flip it, add dots, whatever floats your boat, but I like it cleaner... even erase the center and bracket the middle doesn't matter, play with it how you like... but it's a spotter, hence a ruler so give it good room to measure.

one with Mil dots but otherwise using hashes would work too, that way close to a Gen 2, but still I would want the quarters in there, because why not.
 
#20
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HDC-Deadly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Carter,

What i fail to see though is if you are saying that the Spotter 60 "L" shaped reticle is less than ideal due to its placement in the field of view, then why did you just invert the "L"?

I can also take a picture of how a centered Gen 2 Mildot reticle really dicks with the FOV in a Spotter if you would like.

What I was getting at is that if you know where the shot impacted why not just move the junction of the reticle to the POA and then measure to the POI?

I am not trying to argue just trying to give some insight. Have you looked through a Spotter 60 or just going off of internet pictures of the reticle? In theory it looks like it would be to far in the edge of the FOV to use, but in reality its in a perfect position to be used for milling and calling shots and corrections.</div></div>

Exactly... there are compromises. I wasn't saying the design I put up top was any better than Hensoldt's... I am not saying that at all. That was a strawman to spark some conversation. After punching it a couple times (or at least having fellow 'Hiders) punch it, I decided it was not ideal for that objective... that is all. Nothing personal. I like the Hensoldt design a lot for the same reason I don't want a Gen II messing up my FOV.

I want to come up with a compromise between all the tings we ask a spotter to do... I would argue that anything that offers great FOV automatically trades off with calling shots. It is unavoidable. The Hensoldt actually went the direction I favor because I will likely use it more for ranging and observation... but in facilitating this design, I have to take into account what everyone needs...
 
#21
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be very much in favor of a T in the bottom 1/3 FOV, actually a crucifix with perhaps 2 mil above the horizontal and 3 mil below. All hash marks, .2 spacing, fixed 30x, long eye relief. I'll take it in whatever scope they care to make it for, thank you very much. Since it would replace my Pentax 80ED, the 77 would be fine, I've got field scopes already.</div></div>

How about an upside down crucifix? Kind of satanic, but usable...
 
#23
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Great work, guys!

I made it clear to Josh that having two LER eyepieces for both the 60/66/82mm models and the 77/88mm models would be the way to go....it's awesome to see the gears turning here...I'll let Josh know the "Hide" is working on this!

Scott
 
#24
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

i like the idea of the T best i want to be able to be on the target with the shooter then just be able to tell them where the shot lands without having to move position and start to estimate where the shot landed and then the correction most of the time people shoot low so it would be good to get elevation above and below the windage line. if somthing like a Gen2 XR would work i would be in for one definatlty as i already have the spotter and a fixed 30 power would be awsome mabe a wide angle if possible.
 
#28
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

KISS, I have been begging kowa to do this for years, I gave up and sold my big Kowa, still have the mini one in drag bag, but its getting replaced next week with my new USO-GAP spotter.

Just one idea here, unobstructed views when scanning (reticle set below center), straight forward corrections, etc. Crank up the power and have a couple MILS left in FOV...

spotter2_mockup.jpg


spotter3_mockup.jpg
 
#31
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

What is successful in the Spotter 60 is the fact the main lines are very thin, in a spotter you want the thinner lines, so you want to make sure they are not blocking too much of the target image.

So as thin a line as you can get, with a bit thicker hash mark, but not too thick.

You can even slide the vertical post over 1 mil so it is not "centered" that would work too...
 
#34
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So as thin a line as you can get, with a bit thicker hash mark, but not too thick. </div></div>

Very good point and agree 100%, my submission was just 5 min on the computer, lines not to scale... I like where this is going.. The Hide rocks.
 
#35
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I made it clear to Josh that having two LER eyepieces for both the 60/66/82mm models and the 77/88mm models would be the way to go....it's awesome to see the gears turning here...I'll let Josh know the "Hide" is working on this!</div></div>

Thanks for starting the ball rolling. I want/need one of these in the worst way. I don't even care what reticle, just as long as one gets made for the 82mm scopes.
 
#36
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I realy like the first image in Storm Tacs post. but thin lines it does not encroach to much into the fov but is usefull for ranging and spotting. I dont like the crap added it just makes things look fussy and covers to much of the image. you dont need those ranging references at the bottom use the Mill markings because they are fixed for a given target size any other target size will require adjustments so just range with the reticle that is what it is there for the extras are just gimics not interested in ather things crammed into the scope. Like the DTAC reticle it has so much shit in it you cant use them to shoot i would hate to use anything like that but apparently people need to have to much in the FOV.

A simple t would be awsome in Mill and with a small anount above the center line 2 mills is fine and then the majority below. To range you can still use the lines below centre you dont have to range above the reticle.

I realy like that this way you can tell the shooter you are spotting for instantly how many mills High, low Left or right any of the L type reticles dont work as easily for spotting both directions.
 
#37
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

also i forgot to add with thiner lines it would be able to have 1/4 Mill hash marks that would be awsome and it say the hash marks were like frank has used stepping them either side of the main lines that would also be great.
 
#38
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Is this a step forward or a step back?

KowaDraft2.jpg


It would be nice to know much space we have to work with. Once we know magnification, we should know that... and we will just design for something that will work with 66mm to be safe.
 
#39
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I could also try it with hashes only... just trying to flesh out the big picture first. Are the 4 mildots around the cross hair too much? Should the quarter hashes go all the way across? I didn't really want to busy it up in the middle. If we are using the crosshairs for shot calling, it seems like we don't want to crowd the center too much. The quarter hashes at the side and top are for ranging.

Also, are people on board with coming from the top? Intuitively, we think about driving a car or a plane and have the controls below and the windshield up top, but here, we are more likely to have the things we really need to see at the lower half of the FOV... between us and the target. If you look at Chiller's pic, the top of the FOV is just horizon... you should be more tuned in to what might come into view in the field. Make sense?
 
#40
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is an off center hash mark

offreticle.jpg
</div></div>

Are you really gaining much by having it off center? If you are going to run a line up the scope, it might as well be centered... just a thought.

What was this "Z" concept you were talking about? I am kind of interested in seeing what you meant there...
 
#41
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Carter,

Ill leave my last opinion here, i would suggest that the reticle be in the lower part of the FOV....most misses go low as opposed to high.

While your last reticle drawing is a decent one, I would suggest moving it to the lower half, doing away with the dots on the stadia lines, and remove the 4 dots that are just floating in space.
 
#42
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this a step forward or a step back?

KowaDraft2.jpg


It would be nice to know much space we have to work with. Once we know magnification, we should know that... and we will just design for something that will work with 66mm to be safe.</div></div>

I kinda like it, move it to the lower 1/3, and remove the dots after the heavy lines plus remove the last two dots vertical and just use hash marks in their place. I could use that.

The reticle high in the fov sucks.
 
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#44
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Austin, I think we will put the direction of the lines up for a poll... probably upper half vs lower half and pit those against centered just in case that is what everyone wants. Maybe then, we can do a final vote against the "L," inverted or not.

Blowing away those dots is probably a good idea. They are taking up space. I wanted to make them really small, but then they are like the EBR-2 where you can't even see the dots, so what's the point? I tried it first with crosses like in the Gen 2 XR, but then it looks way too busy.


It might also make sense to clear away the stadia in the middle and just put a dot. It is not actually an aim point, after all.

I think we have four approaches:
The "L" (inverted vs not)
The Storm Tactical crucifix (upside down or not)
The rifle reticle (centered crosshairs)
MSR/Tubb style (an everything but the kitchen sink approach - what goes in is TBD)

If anyone else has any grand ideas to add, I can add them to the list. Otherwise, we will do a tournament bracket style poll one on one.
 
#45
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In fact flipping it like Mark's would work too... </div></div>

I think that would be the way to go if it were at the bottom of the FOV. I like his only with finer subtensions at the ends, which is basically like the inverted "L" in chiller's second pic combined with the "t" in his first pic (or really, Storm's cross).

I think we are ready to rock on the big picture designs. We can worry about dots vs. hashes, etc., later. And I am just going forward with mils right now because it is the standard.
 
#47
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a seconday issue as to why we might not want things in the upper portion is to pick up trace. That clear area would allow us the opportunity to visually find trace without the added obstructions</div></div>

Another good point.
 
#50
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Sorry Carter i think you have put the cart ahead of the horse and that poll allows you to chose 2 out of 4 it should be 1 out of 4.

If there is realy going to be a poll you have to come up with the finalised designs that are in contention and we have to see what can be placed int he lower portion of the FOV.

Does anyone know exactly what eyepiece is going to be used? this will determine the available space there is to work with. say the eyepiece is a 30 power it will have less space available than a 20 or 25 power so if we went with Marks Storm proposal can we fit 2 mills above the line and 5 below? if so we would be able to go with it what if 7 mills take us into the top section of the unit then it would not work. We need a specification of the eyepiece that will be the likley contender before the design will be able to be worked on.

Sorry about this but i did not like your last design the dots were just ugly remove them and turn the whole thing upside down like Marks and you both are close to what i would buy.
 
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