Ladder test after annealing brass?

[m1ajunkie]

I recently got myself an annealing setup to help extend my brass life and hopefully improve my velocity numbers. Prior to getting the annealer I've had a pretty solid load for my 300PRC with the 230 atip. The ADG brass I'm using probably had 5-6 firings on it and velocity would consistently average 2885 fps with high single digit SD performance.

I annealed my brass and loaded up 50 rounds exactly like I've always done. Running about 25 rds across the magneato speed I'm finding my average velocity is up to 2915 and SD has grown to the mid teens which I'm not happy with.

Is it normal to see a proven load increase velocity after annealing brass?

Apparently the annealing changed things just enough that I need to run another ladder test and tweak my load to hopefully get my consistency back?

 

[waveslayer]

How many rounds down the barrel? New barrel?

 

[spife7980]

You changed the state of the brass, that changes how the brass acts. Retune the load for your now different bullet grip.

 

[SicVic]

Here's my theory:
By Annealing you reduced the amount of spring back in the brass.
This may have caused the Headspace to shorten slightly reducing case volume.
Also the neck tension may have increased from less spring back depending on how you sized the case.
Lastly and I feel this may be the largest contributing factor; the area of the case mouth is made "flexible" again from the annealing allowing it to seal more efficiently hence raising the velocity.

You only made one change to your reloading steps but it was a large change in terms of affecting the actions of the case relative the prior Non Annealed cases.

These are only MY thoughts as a fellow Annealer.
You are on track to extended case Life.

Of done a video on this and at 40 reloadings the case lot still holds a 7 SD avg with Annealing each firing.
Good luck with the Ladder Test.

 

[CK1.0]

I recently got myself an annealing setup to help extend my brass life and hopefully improve my velocity numbers. Prior to getting the annealer I've had a pretty solid load for my 300PRC with the 230 atip. The ADG brass I'm using probably had 5-6 firings on it and velocity would consistently average 2885 fps with high single digit SD performance.

I annealed my brass and loaded up 50 rounds exactly like I've always done. Running about 25 rds across the magneato speed I'm finding my average velocity is up to 2915 and SD has grown to the mid teens which I'm not happy with.

Is it normal to see a proven load increase velocity after annealing brass?

Apparently the annealing changed things just enough that I need to run another ladder test and tweak my load to hopefully get my consistency back?

It's different brass now (arguably better). You said it was: 2885fps, single digit SD... when? last loading? a few loadings back? or when you finished developing a load 4-5 loadings ago? been chronoing it every time?

Then: same weather/environmentals?

There are many reasons why you might see different MV's, and it might have nothing to do with annealing vs no annealing.

I doubt you had perfectly consistent MV's and single digit SD's through all those loading cycles without annealing, not to mention changing weather/comditions. Your brass was changing and was different brass every firing (whether you knew it or not).

We anneal to make the brass less-different every time.

If you get the load dialed now, now that it's been annealed, and start annealing every time, you can pretty much bet on your brass/rounds being much more consistent vs before and no annealing... but weather is weather, could be your load is 30fps faster in the afternoon vs the morning due to that (I know in TN it sure can be: it can be 45degF in the morning, then 100degF at 1400hrs).

 

[m1ajunkie]

Appreciate the input guys.... sounds like I just need to re-tune my load now that I'm annealing and move forward from there. I'm hoping once I get the load tuned back in I'll get more consistent velocities and extended brass life.

Waveslayer- I'm right at 450 rounds down the barrel.

Ceekay- you are correct, I'm not running the magneato speed every time I shoot. A little bit of a guess here but the last time I ran the magneato speed was probably 2 months ago and 100-150 rounds ago, which was likely 2x firing ago on the brass. To your point weather has also changed which is likely a contributing factor as well.

 

[918v]

When you anneal you create an oxide on the neck surface. This oxide is abrasive. If you seat a bullet against this oxide there is going to be more friction. The neck will hold on to the bullet better than if the neck was slick. You will have better combustion efficiency and a higher velocity. This may pop you out of the node. Thats prolly what happened.

 

[CK1.0]

When you anneal you create an oxide on the neck surface. This oxide is abrasive. If you seat a bullet against this oxide there is going to be more friction. The neck will hold on to the bullet better than if the neck was slick. You will have better combustion efficiency and a higher velocity. This may pop you out of the node. Thats prolly what happened.

I smell something...

 

[918v]

Wha?

 

[CK1.0]

I don't think oxide has anything to do with anything.

I anneal before I wet tumble with SS pins, and if there was any oxide present from the annealing process, it's gone after.

Annealed brass just acts differently than non-annealed brass because it's free of the work hardening that occurs.

I tend to think of non-annealed brass as a moving goal post, changing every loading cycle, while the annealing process resets the brass so it behaves about the same every time.

 

[918v]

The oxide does form during annealing and it increases seating effort and it makes it harder to pull bullets afterwards. This will raise velocity.

 

[m1ajunkie]

The oxide does form during annealing and it increases seating effort and it makes it harder to pull bullets afterwards. This will raise velocity.

I have noticed that it feels like there was more friction when running my mandrel in and out of the necks with the annealed cases vs when running un annealed cases. Planning to run a quick ladder test next weekend and get things at least back to as good as they were and hopefully better.

 

[spife7980]

I have noticed that it feels like there was more friction when running my mandrel in and out of the necks with the annealed cases vs when running un annealed cases. Planning to run a quick ladder test next weekend and get things at least back to as good as they were and hopefully better.

There is. And believe it or not a quick brush through the necks really helps with that, even after cob tumbling I’ve found.

 

[supercorndogs]

^^^^^^^^^ Always clean out your necks after annealing. Corn wont cut it, maybe the walnut guys could speak on it? Dry lube never hurts either. Not annealing for 3 or 4 loading isn't a big deal, or at least I haven't seen an instance where it makes much difference. I would make a guess if it does, maybe the brass is getting too soft. A brass case needs some hardness/spring back to perform correctly. .

 

[918v]

Neither wet nor dry tumbling will remove the oxide from the inside of the neck. You have to brush it or lube it, preferably the latter.

 

[CK1.0]

Again, I don't think oxide has anything to do with anything.

I've never experienced any added friction post-annealing either when run through a mandrel die or when seating bullets.

These days I anneal first, then decap, then wet tumble with SS pins and Armor All Wash & Wax and Lemishine... so IDK if it's a product of the wax in the AAWW, but nope, no added friction, feels/acts just like any other brass.

Even when I used to anneal post wet tumble, never experienced any added friction then either.

 

[918v]

I did and so did the op. Maybe we anneal more responsibly than you.

 

[CK1.0]

I did and so did the op. Maybe we anneal more responsibly than you.

IDK, maybe?

Seems to be working for me though...

 

[supercorndogs]

I smell something...

Not surprising, you are laying it down pretty thick.

 

[Bulletsmith]

Use a mandrel of appropriate size for your cartridge and you may never anneal your brass again.

 

[918v]

IDK, maybe?

Seems to be working for me though...

View attachment 7627265

Can you share some more detail about your load? How close to the lands? How much neck tension?

 

[CK1.0]

Not surprising, you are laying it down pretty thick.

???

I don't know if you mean that pic was BS or what, but here's a pic of the target I shot at 1000 right before going out to 1250 yards (that was the best first round impact I've probably ever fired BTW). I count 8 impacts (if you count the cheap doink off the smaller plate), I had 2 misses between the plates (I saw the splash). Wind wasn't bad, but it was switching by .5 mil in an instant. Totally normal ok'ish group for me, on a good day I'm inside a basketball, on a great day it's softball-sized.
I'm not tying to get into a pissing contest, just trying to demonstrate that I'm not talking out my ass, I've got some experience with annealing too, even if I don't 100% agree with another's take exactly...

Can you share some more detail about your load? How close to the lands? How much neck tension?

Nothing exotic at all about my load. I'm running it in the lower of two flat-spots/nodes I found. The higher/faster flat-spot/node at ~3000fps shot like a laser, but when it's 100degF in August it'd be sketchy pressure-wise (Sta-Ball is temp-stable for a ball powder, it's not H4350 in that regard).
When I say "flat-spots/nodes" I mean a range of +/- .3-.6gr where changes in powder charge weight doesn't change velocity significantly:

6 Creed
Hornady case - 4-5x fired - AMP anneal every firing
115DTAC
41.3gr Sta-Ball
CCI 200
trim 1.915" - every firing
2.215" CBTO
neck tension = .241" mandrel
jumping ~.100" to jam - started .080" off jam, but that was 400-500rds ago, testing showed I'd be good out to at least .120" off jam (~800rds of throat erosion) before possibly having to recheck it and maybe have to add .020-.040" to my CBTO.

2865fps @70degF SD=8 ES=24 - Running it nice and easy like a big not-as-hip Dasher/6GT (but it gets hot as fuck in TN and most of the summer I'll be up around 2900fps which is fine).

 

[918v]

???

I don't know if you mean that pic was BS or what, but here's a pic of the target I shot at 1000 right before going out to 1250 yards (that was the best first round impact I've probably ever fired BTW). I count 8 impacts (if you count the cheap doink off the smaller plate), I had 2 misses between the plates (I saw the splash). Wind wasn't bad, but it was switching by .5 mil in an instant. Totally normal ok'ish group for me, on a good day I'm inside a basketball, on a great day it's softball-sized.
I'm not tying to get into a pissing contest, just trying to demonstrate that I'm not talking out my ass, I've got some experience with annealing too, even if I don't 100% agree with another's take exactly...

View attachment 7627537


Nothing exotic at all about my load. I'm running it in the lower of two flat-spots/nodes I found. The higher/faster flat-spot/node at ~3000fps shot like a laser, but when it's 100degF in August it'd be sketchy pressure-wise (Sta-Ball is temp-stable for a ball powder, it's not H4350 in that regard).
When I say "flat-spots/nodes" I mean a range of +/- .3-.6gr where changes in powder charge weight doesn't change velocity significantly:

6 Creed
Hornady case - 4-5x fired - AMP anneal every firing
115DTAC
41.3gr Sta-Ball
CCI 200
trim 1.915" - every firing
2.215" CBTO
neck tension = .241" mandrel
jumping ~.100" to jam - started .080" off jam, but that was 400-500rds ago, testing showed I'd be good out to at least .120" off jam (~800rds of throat erosion) before possibly having to recheck it and maybe have to add .020-.040" to my CBTO.

2865fps @70degF SD=8 ES=24 - Running it nice and easy like a big not-as-hip Dasher/6GT (but it gets hot as fuck in TN and most of the summer I'll be up around 2900fps which is fine).

So you load pretty much like me, but I get resistance if I don’t dry lube the neck to the point of damaging bullet noses. You mentioned you use was/wax in your tumbling setup so that’s probably why you don’t feel the additional friction.

Maybe 6mm feels different than 30 cal?

 

[CK1.0]

So you load pretty much like me, but I get resistance if I don’t dry lube the neck to the point of damaging bullet noses. You mentioned you use was/wax in your tumbling setup so that’s probably why you don’t feel the additional friction.

Maybe 6mm feels different than 30 cal?

I'm thinking it might be the wax in the Armor All stuff, and/or, it might be how I lube my cases: I throw my brass in a plastic container, then squirt 5-10 pulls of lanolin/IPA lube (like you use for pistol stuff/progressives) and then swirl it around a bit and wait for the alcohol to evaporate. Some lube definitely gets in necks...

Seriously, I've never felt any difference at the handle between annealed vs non-annealed brass, other than annealed being super smooth and consistent when seating bullets while non-annealed feels inconsistent and all over the place.

 

[AllenOne1]

???

I don't know if you mean that pic was BS or what, but here's a pic of the target I shot at 1000 right before going out to 1250 yards (that was the best first round impact I've probably ever fired BTW). I count 8 impacts (if you count the cheap doink off the smaller plate), I had 2 misses between the plates (I saw the splash). Wind wasn't bad, but it was switching by .5 mil in an instant. Totally normal ok'ish group for me, on a good day I'm inside a basketball, on a great day it's softball-sized.
I'm not tying to get into a pissing contest, just trying to demonstrate that I'm not talking out my ass, I've got some experience with annealing too, even if I don't 100% agree with another's take exactly...

View attachment 7627537


Nothing exotic at all about my load. I'm running it in the lower of two flat-spots/nodes I found. The higher/faster flat-spot/node at ~3000fps shot like a laser, but when it's 100degF in August it'd be sketchy pressure-wise (Sta-Ball is temp-stable for a ball powder, it's not H4350 in that regard).
When I say "flat-spots/nodes" I mean a range of +/- .3-.6gr where changes in powder charge weight doesn't change velocity significantly:

6 Creed
Hornady case - 4-5x fired - AMP anneal every firing
115DTAC
41.3gr Sta-Ball
CCI 200
trim 1.915" - every firing
2.215" CBTO
neck tension = .241" mandrel
jumping ~.100" to jam - started .080" off jam, but that was 400-500rds ago, testing showed I'd be good out to at least .120" off jam (~800rds of throat erosion) before possibly having to recheck it and maybe have to add .020-.040" to my CBTO.

2865fps @70degF SD=8 ES=24 - Running it nice and easy like a big not-as-hip Dasher/6GT (but it gets hot as fuck in TN and most of the summer I'll be up around 2900fps which is fine).

I like your range, I haven't been out there for two days now and I miss it. Saturday morning I'll be there through.

 

[ddavis52]

Here's my theory:
By Annealing you reduced the amount of spring back in the brass.
This may have caused the Headspace to shorten slightly reducing case volume.
Also the neck tension may have increased from less spring back depending on how you sized the case.
Lastly and I feel this may be the largest contributing factor; the area of the case mouth is made "flexible" again from the annealing allowing it to seal more efficiently hence raising the velocity.

You only made one change to your reloading steps but it was a large change in terms of affecting the actions of the case relative the prior Non Annealed cases.

These are only MY thoughts as a fellow Annealer.
You are on track to extended case Life.

Of done a video on this and at 40 reloadings the case lot still holds a 7 SD avg with Annealing each firing.
Good luck with the Ladder Test.

I agree. AMP even includes a statement with their annealer recommending a reset of your sizing die because spring back will be reduced/eliminated if you anneal before each loading.

 

[Cardboard Assassin]

I agree. AMP even includes a statement with their annealer recommending a reset of your sizing die because spring back will be reduced/eliminated if you anneal before each loading.

How do you do that? Are we talking about headspace here?

 

[supercorndogs]

You screw your die out a little.

If your die setting you used on your 1x brass doesn't work after annealing your brass, you're getting your brass too soft.

 

[ddavis52]

How do you do that? Are we talking about headspace here?

Obviously nothing has changed in your rifle. What AMP is claiming (and it seems to be born out in my limited experience) is that the shoulder setback that your sizing die achieves will be more consistent and predictable since the springback tendency in the brass will be the same no matter how many times the brass has been loaded. The assertion applies to both "headspace" and neck tension. The annealing effectively reduces the affects of "work hardening".

 

[Barelstroker]

When you anneal you create an oxide on the neck surface. This oxide is abrasive. If you seat a bullet against this oxide there is going to be more friction. The neck will hold on to the bullet better than if the neck was slick. You will have better combustion efficiency and a higher velocity. This may pop you out of the node. Thats prolly what happened.

Here's the conclusion copied from a study conducted at Arlington by John j Ritter & Richard A Beyer on "Primer output & initial projectile motion in 5.56 & 7.62 mm Ammunition.
Quote:
"5. Conclusions
By employing short-barrel guns, high-speed imaging, and the ARL primer force
breech, extensive evaluations have been made into the initial motion, velocity, and
acceleration of small-caliber projectiles in both 5.56 and 7.62 mm. These studies
have shown that the primer output alone can greatly influence the initial motion of
a small-caliber projectile. The primer is capable of producing enough force to 16
debullet the projectile and begin the engraving process prior to any significant
propellant burning. The timing of the projectile’s initial motion relative to primer
output and propellant ignition is vital to IB models. These initial conditions set the
stage for subsequent propellant gas generation and IB performance characteristics.
From impulse and momentum measurements associated with the primer output, it
was determined that the manner in which the primer force is transmitted through
the propellant bed is dependent on the specific cartridge being investigated. It
appears that the amount of ullage is the driving mechanism that influences the
primer force transmission mode. The ullage provides a certain amount of freedom
for the propellant bed to compress and move during the initial stages of the interior
ballistic event. With minimal ullage available, the propellant merely transmits the
primer force to the projectile, acting much like an incompressible fluid. Conversely,
a cartridge with more ullage will create a situation where the initial motion of
projectile and propellant act more in unison"

There have been other studies conducted by John Ritter Et al which have measured similar results.
Since the initial primer pressures have been measured from 180 to 560 PSI, I doubt the case necks will be much influence on the de bulleting process.

This is prolly what happened.

 

[918v]

The OP said his velocity increased after annealing. He did not change primers. So something must have happened as a result of annealing that improved combustion efficiency of his load to raise the velocity. It wasn’t the primers. It wasn’t the powder. It wasn’t the bullets. Or the coal. It was the case. The case changed.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Neither wet nor dry tumbling will remove the oxide from the inside of the neck. You have to brush it or lube it, preferably the latter.

Lube

 

[Seymour Fish]

Lube

Tumbling with stainless pins removes carbon from the inside of necks.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Neither wet nor dry tumbling will remove the oxide from the inside of the neck. You have to brush it or lube it, preferably the latter.

More data for anyone looking at sonic cleaning as opposed to tumbling (wet or dry).

150deg for 20min with boretech brass cleaner.

No oxide. No lube or brushing needed for light seating pressure (cold welding is entirely different possibility/problem).

The case from the picture was annealed on amp. Sized, then mandreled with no brush, no lube, nothing at all. 300 Norma with 212 PVA solid. 50psi seating pressure.

Brass not cleaned or annealed. Brass annealed, brushed but not clean. Brass annealed, cleaned and brushed. Brass annealed and brushed. All produce either the same or higher.


I am using a commercial/industrial sonic cleaner and not a cheap hornady or the like. I’m also not using some garage brew with lemi shine. Both of those factors maybe be large contributor.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I am using a commercial/industrial sonic cleaner and not a cheap hornady or the like. I’m also not using some garage brew with lemi shine. Both of those factors maybe be large contributor.

Which one are you using? I have a ginormous one that is overkill for most washings and I want something a little smaller that's not Hornady er, complete shite.

 

[Barelstroker]

The OP said his velocity increased after annealing. He did not change primers. So something must have happened as a result of annealing that improved combustion efficiency of his load to raise the velocity. It wasn’t the primers. It wasn’t the powder. It wasn’t the bullets. Or the coal. It was the case. The case changed.

Well, the change in the brass may be the reason but, it may not be either.
For example, how many rnds has the barrel had through it?
How many rnds were used to determine the average of 2885 fps?
Was there a temp difference since the 1st velocity testing?
These are all very important factors, any one of which could easily cause a change in average velocity by the amount stated.
I'm not trying to denigrate the Op however, it's very easy for anyone to overlook important factors like these & draw erroneous conclusions as a result.

 

[Barelstroker]

Since I don't want to come on here just kicking everyone else's ideas, I'll post what I believe the mechanism to be in general terms.
According to the studies I've seen to date, I believe the phenomenon we see is mostly a combination of OBT barrel timing & projectile axis or off axis during the initial IB event which, begins with the primer pressure shunting the bullet into the lands. The primer pressures that have been measured would not be high enough to expand the neck even if the anneal was very soft. Neck hardness may be a factor in how straight the bullet is pushed by the primer however, the studies were carried out with standard issue army rounds & considerable bullet axis change was measured so, I'm not sure that softer necks alone can blamed for the phenomenon.
Once the main charge has has begun to conflagrate within the new chamber volume set by initial bullet movement, the next largest factor I believe to be OBT which, is the timing of the bullet at the muzzle with regard to axial barrel movement.
Since the Op was focussed primarily on the changes he noticed after annealing, the 1st question which comes to my mind is: was there enough data to make a statistically valid observation that what he measured was indeed "real change"
My 2nd question is: was the data well controlled with regard in particular to temperature.
Assuming that the answer to both questions is yes, the only mechanism which I think could account for the change would be less initial bullet movement within the primer pressure phase due to lower neck tension which would cause lower primer induced internal case pressure.
If this is indeed the mechanism, I can only assume that initial powder burn rate time was altered enough to change the OBT muzzle release at a less than optimal time.
The key to all this assumption is the answers to questions 1 & 2. Until the Op can answer those questions accurately, we may be seeing nothing more than temp induced velocity changes or, just the natural gaussian distribution.

 

[m1ajunkie]

In case anyone was following along I wanted to provide a bit of an update. After annealing I did go ahead and run another ladder test.... ended up I had to bump my powder charge up from 78.5 grs H1000 to 78.7 grs H1000. Last night I ran 19 rounds across the magneato speed while shooting at 785 & 1850 yds....... based on what I saw last night I'm happy!

Annealing did require a slight shift in my load, and so far I believe it has improved my ES & SD.

 

[PatMiles]

What did the target tell you.

 

[iceng]

19 shot, 6.7/22 SDES. That real good. Nice work.