Lapua lot testing and barrel wear question

[catalyst81]

The Lapua testing looks really interesting to me. After the testing you can buy a case of the best lot. I am curious about how likely it would be for the lot performance to change through the life of the barrel. I would think it wouldn't change too much through 5,000 rounds and even if it did you could test again after you blow through the case. Has anyone done the testing and then put a significant amount of rounds through and seen any change in performance?

 

[littlepod]

No change in performance. I'm at 3500 rounds so far in the past 6 mo. Clean you rifle when groups start opening up.

 

[Tim7139]

not unless you harm the barrel, and if you’re dropping cash on good ammo you want to clean the gun, ideally, every 50-100 rounds. This “when groups open up“ bullshit has been disproven countless times.

 

[littlepod]

not unless you harm the barrel, and if you’re dropping cash on good ammo you want to clean the gun, ideally, every 50-100 rounds. This “when groups open up “ bullshit has been disproven countless times.

I shoot PRS like matches, and go through about 150 rounds on a single day match. A 2-day match will generally push me to about 250-300 rounds. Factoring in if I clean the rifle I'm also going to foul it with a good 15-20 rounds, it'll be about 350 rounds at least before I clean it again. Generally speaking I don't have enough drop off that I care until about 500-600 rounds.

Now if you're talking about bench rest shooting, then no idea. I hear they clean it every string or something.

 

[straightshooter1]

The Lapua testing looks really interesting to me. After the testing you can buy a case of the best lot. I am curious about how likely it would be for the lot performance to change through the life of the barrel. I would think it wouldn't change too much through 5,000 rounds and even if it did you could test again after you blow through the case. Has anyone done the testing and then put a significant amount of rounds through and seen any change in performance?

You should watch this video as it should best answer your question:

 

[BuckeyePrecision]

I pretty much agree with what others have said. 22lr does not have a significant wear rate on the barrel. I have put about 25k rounds through my 75 and it was 60 years old when I got it so who knows how many total. I still have about a half of a brick of the ammo I bought for it 15 years ago. Clean it would shoot in the high .1's then, and it will still do it today.

 

[pete_f]

Speaking from the perspective of more than 40 years as a competitive prone and 3-P shooter, yes, I have seen barrels change over time. Some times they will shoot a particular lot better, some times not. Like most who are serious competitors, I generally have multiple lots of ammo on hand and keep samples of older lots to shoot as a baseline when testing new ammo so it is pretty easy to see. I will also say that, except for a new barrel, they generally don't change much if at all in 1 case worth.
I also have to agree with Tim7139 on the cleaning question. The typical prone or 3-P match is 120 or 160 record shots plus sighters per day and it would be uncommon at best for someone to not clean their rifle at the end of the day, even at a multi day match.

 

[Tim7139]

I shoot PRS like matches, and go through about 150 rounds on a single day match. A 2-day match will generally push me to about 250-300 rounds. Factoring in if I clean the rifle I'm also going to foul it with a good 15-20 rounds, it'll be about 350 rounds at least before I clean it again. Generally speaking I don't have enough drop off that I care until about 500-600 rounds.

Now if you're talking about bench rest shooting, then no idea. I hear they clean it every string or something.

Obviously, in a match specific setting like this, you can only do what match will allow, understand.
from a purely optimum bbl performance standpoint, that’s a different deal.Again you’re shooting a steel plate, I ‘m shooting a 1/32 dot, different requirements.

 

[Tim7139]

You should watch this video as it should best answer your question:

A lot in that video is flat out wrong. Sorry, you talk to any number of gunsmiths that fit custom match barrels to 22’s and they would fall down laughing.
welcome back to 1980.

 

[grauhanen]

A lot in that video is flat out wrong. Sorry, you talk to any number of gunsmiths that fit custom match barrels to 22’s and they would fall down laughing.
welcome back to 1980.

Indeed. Surprisingly, its advice is often like it's from someone relatively new to best practices with rimfire.

 

[nockhunter]

Improper cleaning of a rimfire has killed more barrels than bullets down the bore.

Mike

 

[LeftyJason]

A lot in that video is flat out wrong. Sorry, you talk to any number of gunsmiths that fit custom match barrels to 22’s and they would fall down laughing.
welcome back to 1980.

Talk to the man himself @orkan.

Also you're referencing gunsmiths that have a monetary incentive to have you come to them more often. Take what some of them say with that in mind.

 

[orkan]

lol what’s to talk about? That rifle has had its performance across 10,000 rounds tracked live in front of an audience. If someone can watch that accuracy and precision of my methods on our YouTube channel and still claim I’m wrong... what basis do I have for a conversation? I can’t possibly provide any more proof than I already have.

So when someone talks that way to me... that’s not where I start talking, that’s when I stop talking.

 

[Tim7139]

lol what’s to talk about? That rifle has had its performance across 10,000 rounds tracked live in front of an audience. If someone can watch that accuracy and precision of my methods on our YouTube channel and still claim I’m wrong... what basis do I have for a conversation? I can’t possibly provide any more proof than I already have.

So when someone talks that way to me... that’s not where I start talking, that’s when I stop talking.

Well, there’s that vs the entire benchrest world, benchrest gunsmithing world, and I mean world cause I know many Intl champions as well.
Not for nothing but you can “track” a rifle performance in front of a video audience, me, I want a scored target for precision.
Have you ever talked, seen, had any experience, been anywhere near any countless gunsmiths building the most precise rifles for ABBRA, IR50/50, ARA, PSL, or a single barrel maker that supplies same ?
Ever hear of Bill Calfee? Try it, he makes world champion guns, no Youtube videos, chapter on cleaning ( nothing unique) would be enlightening.
You are, from what I have seen, the single gun expert in the galaxy claiming a Zero cleaning methodology.....it is ridiculus.
I mean apologies if I sound rude but it is beyond belief in 2021 these opinions are still out there.
In your video you have one....one gun, maybe that could be precise. Some nice factory guns, none of which would ever be seen in a high end match.
With a $5000 custom rifle it would take less than 1/2 hour to proove this to be bullshit.
If I’m wrong make a couple videos of your uncleaned guns laying down some IR 50/50 250 scores, try it.....it’s easy.

Lastly, all your stuff, products, training, everything in your wheelhouse seems absolutely first rate,
best of breed, etc. but this particular point.........not so much

 

[b6graham]

i believe the olympic shooters order in the 40k-80k number of the same lot

not sure which podcast that was

 

[grauhanen]

i believe the olympic shooters order in the 40k-80k number of the same lot

not sure which podcast that was

If anyone orders 40k to 80k rounds of the same lot of top tier ammo, they must be taking the entire lot. Some lots of Eley Tenex, for example, may have less than eight cases in all.

 

[orkan]

I've never been able to buy more than 7 cases of the same lot number.

 

[Tim7139]

i believe the olympic shooters order in the 40k-80k number of the same lot

not sure which podcast that was

Not sure which olympic shooters you refer to but that’s 16 cases which is not a ton.
I know single guys that have bought 4-5 cases of ELEY in one shot.
The Olympics before last, the Chinese bought over 50% of ELEY total production of Match and Tennex.

 

[Tim7139]

If anyone orders 40k to 80k rounds of the same lot of top tier ammo, they must be taking the entire lot. Some lots of Eley Tenex, for example, may have less than eight cases in all.

For ELEY, it might be most although usually entire lots don’t show up often in US.
Lapua, at the upper end is tough. it is still, I believe, only made on one machine, expected to become two, but lots often are a case or two.

 

[orkan]

I'm hesitant to post a response at all, but I realize it legitimately might help some people get a bit more happiness out of the sport of shooting 22lr precision rifle.

Not only do some members feel the need to speak in a vitriolic and venom filled manner toward me, they are attempting to have me defend claims I've not even made. When have I ever billed myself as a person of authority in benchrest? I have not previously, am not now, nor likely will ever provide equipment or advice to benchrest shooters. I am a field shooter. I have never claimed to be anything else. All of my shooting is done prone with bipod and rear bag which are field suitable, or sitting/kneeling/standing off various supports. No F-class bipods. No benchrest gear. Some here may want to try to characterize me or my business as something else, but the proof of what I say is easily found for anyone that has made even the slightest effort. I wouldn't expect a benchrest shooter to listen to anything I have to say. I have a great friend that has some state championships in benchrest, and while he too does NOT advocate cleaning his 22lr bores... the best he's ever done in the nationals at st louis has been in the teens or twenties I think. We've learned quite a lot about 22lr together, and if you ask either one of us if we have it all figured out... we'd likely giggle a bit. I have not claimed to be the one that knows all things about rimfire, and it's disturbing to me to be attacked in the way I have been here. Though after I complete this post, This thread will not trouble me a singular second more. I will have said my piece, and provided my proof, and I'm long past thinking I can convince anyone of anything here.

Temperature hit 40° a few minutes ago, so I decided to lay down and shoot a bit. Bipod, Tab gear rear bag, no wind flags, in a 6-14mph wind from 12:00 to 3:00. Extremely challenging condition for me. I was 58yds from the targets. I'd stick a few sighters in the target, and then shoot for score sequentially, not going back to sighters once I began on the score targets.

The rifle: It has approximately 11,000 rounds down the barrel since the bore was last cleaned.

The targets from today, with every single round I fired. No cherry picking. The rifle was NOT the limiting factor here. My ability to read the condition was. Frankly, I'm surprised I was able to do as well as I was. On calm days, the rifle has proven to shoot in the .1's at 50yds. High .2's and low .3's is the "worst" it will shoot. Could it do better on a full scale benchrest stock with all of the associated benchrest gear with 5 sets of flags out and a pro benchrester shooting it? I bet it would.

Here's a live stream this past summer where I shot at 5 flies at 50yds, and killed 5 flies... while having fun shooting groups. 9,000 rounds fired at the time this video was shot, and the rifle bore was not cleaned since it was new. Much better conditions than today, obviously.
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CDRWz85pjey/

If this rifle isn't shooting well enough from bipod and rear bag without flags for some of you on the internet, oh well. Guess I'll just have to find a way to live with that.

Oh, and I haven't changed the zero on my rifle since that day I took the video above.

In 2020, I fired approximately 27,000 rounds of 22lr through several RimX rifles from TS Customs. I've heard from several of those customers and they have put thousands of additional rounds on their rifles, still without cleaning from the day I handed it off to them... and they are all monumentally pleased and their rifles are consistently performing in the .2's at 50yds or better. Some of those rifles would probably outshoot my own main RimX. This isn't a "one rifle" "got lucky" type situation. Every 22lr I've owned and every 22lr I've worked with that has a decent barrel behaves as I've described when not cleaned. Maybe it's not good enough to win a national or even regional benchrest event. I never claimed it would be.

Maybe cleaning could provide even better performance? I've not seen any evidence of it with any of our platforms. Maybe other smiths are just not building rifles that can be forgiving? I've had my share of finicky rifles, and I prefer to avoid it. The TS Customs builds we provide are quite forgiving.

 

[demolitionman]

I love this thread as it puts to rest one of my constant thoughts in the back of my head; “wonder if I should clean my 22 god knows how many thousand rounds I have through it lol.

 

[Tim7139]

well since I guess that was in response to me I guess I’ll weigh in.
On balance, a non BR rig on a non BR bipod but respectable, I guess.
What it shows, I guess I am at a bit of A loss.
My initial post was not about BR per se. Your video you billed yourself @ the highest level of rimfire precision so, I understand promotion but it seems that to be subjective, I guess.
What is settled science these days is that 22’s, perhaps custom BR guns being at the highest end of the precision spectrum will not perform “AT THEIR OPTIMUM “ without a regular/fairly regular cleaning regimine.
Hundreds and hundreds of high level comp shooters, gunsmiths, do , largely the same thing, as do ELEY and Lapua test facilities.
As far as understandable facts, how would you like to drop serious cash on a custom hand taper lapped barrel to have virtually all of that negated because you have a permanent carbon / lead ring in the throat eliminating that.
So.....you seem like a smart guy, but maybe you want to think about that because the higher up the performance equipment ladder you go, the closer to failure your avowed practice yields.
Maybe remotely doable in your small sample but anywhere in the comp world( not shooting at plates) you’re toast. And I know a couple national level position guys as well......same deal.

 

[LeftyJason]

Hmmm I think this will make everything better for me.

 

[PPS LRPS.260]

I use a lyman digital bore scope, my routine is shoot 250 500 rnds look through bore take pics on a dirty barrel,then clean take more pics then go back later and compare, been shooting ,lilja,walther and bartlein barrels in these nrl22 type builds and for fuck sake im waisting my time because there is no wear at all other than that black ring of death which goes away after using bore tech rimfire blend... just my 2 cents

 

[Tim7139]

I use a lyman digital bore scope, my routine is shoot 250 500 rnds look through bore take pics on a dirty barrel,then clean take more pics then go back later and compare, been shooting ,lilja,walther and bartlein barrels in these nrl22 type builds and for fuck sake im waisting my time because there is no wear at all other than that black ring of death which goes away after using bore tech rimfire blend... just my 2 cents

A real, live, factual, informational post.
Put yourself in for a raise.

 

[Tokay444]

Our Olympic shooters buy lots by the skid.

 

[acourvil]

What is settled science these days is that 22’s . . .
Hundreds and hundreds of high level comp shooters, gunsmiths . . .
As far as understandable facts . . .
So the higher up the performance equipment ladder you go . . .
I know a couple national level position guys as . . .

Saying “it is known” and making vague references to expert opinion isn’t very persuasive. If all of this is true, it should be easy to point to real data, could you do that?

I’m relatively new to the rimfire world and would like to really know what the best cleaning practice is. I know that for center fire rifles, there is a big split of opinions, and there are people that are great shooters on both sides.

 

[PPS LRPS.260]

I clean when my groups open up, which isnt very often on my vudoo with the bartlein barrel, i tend to get less accuracy after 500-800 rnds with my kidd 10/22 but im pretty o.c.d. about cleaning with just a vfg pellet patch,i hardly ever scrub with a nylon brush haven't really had to. My cz with the lilja is more like the vudoo,i wonder if it has to do with the bolt guns run cleaner,and the semi autos run more dirty.

 

[Tim7139]

Saying “it is known” and making vague references to expert opinion isn’t very persuasive. If all of this is true, it should be easy to point to real data, could you do that?

I’m relatively new to the rimfire world and would like to really know what the best cleaning practice is. I know that for center fire rifles, there is a big split of opinions, and there are people that are great shooters on both sides.

What I would offer.....go to any of the precision rimfire forums, rimfire BR forums, RFC, BRC, AR, Etc enroll scroll through tons of stuff......lots on cleaning.
While there are obvious variances, the indisputable fact is that any comp shooter cleans on a more or less regular basis, for BR shooters, shooting the best barrels on, pretty much, the most precise rifles.....most clean every 1-2 targets. I mean, hell, even retired guys that spend on a top flight gun to shoot for pleasure only, no matches.....same thing, It is all out there, this place, for whatever reason, is like a timewarp.

 

[grauhanen]

There are many ways to clean a .22LR bore. But it's a headscratcher that anyone serious about getting the best performance from a smallbore rifle would advocate no cleaning or argue that less cleaning is the prefered way to go.

Few serious .22LR shooters would say that a dirty bore is better than a clean bore. Virtually every serious international 3P shooter and BR shooter cleans regularly. If some ELR and PRS rimfire shooters clean less often, it's not because some strange and unexpected rule that holds that the further the target, the less cleaning required. It's because they eschew best practices. Position shooters and BR shooters would no doubt be pleased if their competitors didn't clean regularly.

If the experience of world class shooters is not enough to persuade others that cleaning regularly is useful and important, consider what rifle makers say. Anschutz and Walther, for example, call for regular bore cleaning, preferably after each shooting session. So, too, does Bleiker, maker of one of the most accurate .22LR rifles anywhere.

Anyone who wishes to not clean his .22LR bore regularly is, of course, free to do as he pleases. Nevertheless, not cleaning shouldn't be taken as the good advice that truly serious .22LR shooters should follow nor what serious rifle manufacturers recommend. It's not a BR or 3P or long distance shooting thing; it's what maintains best performance.

Below, from the 2015 Anschutz 19xx, 20xx, and 54.30 series manual



Below, the relevant section from Bleiker cleaning instructions

 

[b6graham]

oh this will be good facepalm

 

[Tim7139]

yeah what do those undereducated German engineers know about cleaning that POS $8000 rifle?

 

[b6graham]

and now we brought engineers into it....in bold

joelinux to the rescue!!!

 

[acourvil]

I guess it might be time to stop checking this thread, but I feel I need to point out that Orkan is the only one that has actually provided data.

 

[Tokay444]

I guess it might be time to stop checking this thread, but I feel I need to point out that Orkan is the only one that has actually provided data.

You could compare his belly bipod sandbag targets to some actual bench rest targets.

 

[Gleedus]

This Carbon ring. Is it in the leade or throat?

 

[Tim7139]

The leade is the throat, angle right in front of case until full on rifling.

 

[acourvil]

You could compare his belly bipod sandbag targets to some actual bench rest targets.

I have a very good idea what it takes to shoot Orkun’s targets at 58yards in 6-14mph wind, and he provided information about when his rifle was cleaned. No one has posted other targets with information about conditions or what cleaning protocol they are using.

It’s also possible, as Orkan suggested, that people not shooting benchrest competitions might have different trade offs that they weigh in cleaning v. performance (which is certainly true for centerfire rifles).

Snarky comments aren’t any more persuasive than saying “everyone knows this” without any substantiation.

 

[Gleedus]

Last time I checked the throat is from the from of the case to the beginning of the rifling. The leade would be the taper of the rifling.

Last reamer I ordered a 0.120 throat length 0.2435 diameter with a 1-30⁰ leade.

I have Carbon ring in the throat of right at the mouth of the case. My experience would show it gets to certain size and stops growing. It may cause for sticky extraction of a live round but doesn't seem to hinder accuracy. Oh wait I'm thinking bypod with a rear bag field shooting.

The what a guy should do or shouldn't for optimal bench rest precision is not as important for field type shooting. Consistency is important in a match when you will shoot 150 rounds through the day. If your rifles POI moves all the precision in the world doesnt matter. The first 25 out of a clean bore may be the most precise but if at 100-150 your POI is different your skunked. Not all rifles may have POI shift as it gets fouled up I dont know my experience would show that to be the case in my rifles hence the reason I have stopped cleaning regular. We are talking two different use cases here.
Orkan's writing may come across as him being a jerk but he is speaking from personal experiance and is willing to show it and prove it. I dont agree with everything he says. But I can listen and check for myself. We only know what we know an no more then we know....

Now us field shooters can learn things from BR as well. Perhaps there is a carbon ring that forms in the rifling? Maybe my rifles dont form a ring there. So I ask maybe I learn something maybe I dont.

The leade is the throat, angle right in front of case until full on rifling.

 

[pete_f]

Our Olympic shooters buy lots by the skid.

I am curious, what gives you this idea?
That statement may be accurate for Olympic shotgun shooters but it is certainly not true for our rifle shooters.
I am writing this, not to challenge you but to illustrate how little is known about the Olympic rifle disciplines in this country and how little support there really is for it. Statements like this paint a picture of paradise where it is actually a struggle to aspire to be an Olympian.
Other than the athletes that are in the Army Marksmanship unit, which does purchase/provide the ammunition for their use, our Olympic rifle shooters are largely self funded and receive minimal support from the USOC.
Attached below is a link to the current standings in the Olympic Team selection process. If you look at the top 8 in both the Mens and Womens 3-P categories, 5 are AMU members, 2 are military WCAP, 3 are college students, 1 is a high school student and the others are supporting their own efforts. No one on that list is buying pallets of ammunition, a couple of cases yes but not pallets.

https://www.usashooting.org/library/Competitions/0_2019/RP_FS/Results_/2019_Fall_Selection_FINAL_RESULTS.xlsx_-_Group.pdf

 

[b6graham]

I am curious, what gives you this idea?
That statement may be accurate for Olympic shotgun shooters but it is certainly not true for our rifle shooters.
I am writing this, not to challenge you but to illustrate how little is known about the Olympic rifle disciplines in this country and how little support there really is for it. Statements like this paint a picture of paradise where it is actually a struggle to aspire to be an Olympian.
Other than the athletes that are in the Army Marksmanship unit, which does purchase/provide the ammunition for their use, our Olympic rifle shooters are largely self funded and receive minimal support from the USOC.
Attached below is a link to the current standings in the Olympic Team selection process. If you look at the top 8 in both the Mens and Womens 3-P categories, 5 are AMU members, 2 are military WCAP, 3 are college students, 1 is a high school student and the others are supporting their own efforts. No one on that list is buying pallets of ammunition, a couple of cases yes but not pallets.

https://www.usashooting.org/library/Competitions/0_2019/RP_FS/Results_/2019_Fall_Selection_FINAL_RESULTS.xlsx_-_Group.pdf

where is the proof they dont buy pallets?

 

[Tokay444]

I have a very good idea what it takes to shoot Orkun’s targets at 58yards in 6-14mph wind, and he provided information about when his rifle was cleaned. No one has posted other targets with information about conditions or what cleaning protocol they are using.

It’s also possible, as Orkan suggested, that people not shooting benchrest competitions might have different trade offs that they weigh in cleaning v. performance (which is certainly true for centerfire rifles).

Snarky comments aren’t any more persuasive than saying “everyone knows this” without any substantiation.

So him saying it was 58 yards and 6-14mph wind was all you needed to quantify it as data?
I don’t disbelieve him, but that’s not data.

 

[littlepod]

I haven't seen a significant drop in accuracy after not cleaning my rifle in 3000 rounds. What I do notice is that the first few rounds when that carbon ring is hard have a different poi. Usually takes 2-3 rounds for it to settle and then I'm fine. Problem is for PRS competitions I don't get to shoot three warm up rounds before I start the stage. So if my rifle is cooled down then I'm at a guess on where I'm going to hit. This behavior usually exhibits out of my rifle after 600 or so rounds and then I'll clean it.

In my previous rifle where I wasn't competing if I was just doing groups then it didn't matter. Shoot a few warm up rounds and then go for score.

I'm curious can you shoot long enough and build up enough carbon that it actually won't soften and cause a poi shift. Maybe?

 

[Tokay444]

I am curious, what gives you this idea?
That statement may be accurate for Olympic shotgun shooters but it is certainly not true for our rifle shooters.
I am writing this, not to challenge you but to illustrate how little is known about the Olympic rifle disciplines in this country and how little support there really is for it. Statements like this paint a picture of paradise where it is actually a struggle to aspire to be an Olympian.
Other than the athletes that are in the Army Marksmanship unit, which does purchase/provide the ammunition for their use, our Olympic rifle shooters are largely self funded and receive minimal support from the USOC.
Attached below is a link to the current standings in the Olympic Team selection process. If you look at the top 8 in both the Mens and Womens 3-P categories, 5 are AMU members, 2 are military WCAP, 3 are college students, 1 is a high school student and the others are supporting their own efforts. No one on that list is buying pallets of ammunition, a couple of cases yes but not pallets.

https://www.usashooting.org/library/Competitions/0_2019/RP_FS/Results_/2019_Fall_Selection_FINAL_RESULTS.xlsx_-_Group.pdf

I don’t know or care how they do it in your country. I know how they do it in mine.
A few Olympic shooters train out of one of the clubs I shoot out of. Direct from the horse’s mouth.

 

[grauhanen]

This Carbon ring. Is it in the leade or throat?

The leade is the throat, angle right in front of case until full on rifling.

Tim is correct. Leade angle and throat are synonymous in .22LR. As Mike Bellm put it, "technically .22 LR does not have a throat since the bullet is the same approx. dia. as the brass case, thus the chamber is cut the same diameter all the way from the rim to a point past the bullet." Chamber Throats 101 - A basic on the importance of a firearms throat (lasc.us)

In Rifleman's Guide to Rimfire Ammo, author Steve Boelter explains it like this:

"Leade Angle - This dimension is the single most important dimension within the chamber that influences accuracy.... This angle is measured in degrees and describes the angle of trasition from the larger chamber area to the smaller diameter bore. The leade angle, also known as the throat, is the first thing a bullet touches as it's being chambered...."

As for the carbon ring, it occurs right at the case mouth, on the leade angle. It's the result of carbon residue from the burning powder. It builds up over time and it contributes to a loss of accuracy, which can be sudden. The carbon ring can only be seen with a bore scope. It can't be shot out by continuing to shoot. It must be eliminated with traditional cleaning methods and/or the regular use of carbon removing solvents with a focus on the leade area.

 

[Gleedus]

I haven't seen a significant drop in accuracy after not cleaning my rifle in 3000 rounds. What I do notice is that the first few rounds when that carbon ring is hard have a different poi. Usually takes 2-3 rounds for it to settle and then I'm fine. Problem is for PRS competitions I don't get to shoot three warm up rounds before I start the stage. So if my rifle is cooled down then I'm at a guess on where I'm going to hit. This behavior usually exhibits out of my rifle after 600 or so rounds and then I'll clean it.

In my previous rifle where I wasn't competing if I was just doing groups then it didn't matter. Shoot a few warm up rounds and then go for score.

I'm curious can you shoot long enough and build up enough carbon that it actually won't soften and cause a poi shift. Maybe?

Yes I have a cold bore shift. 1-3 rounds beginning of the day. But stage to stage no issue. When I'm practicing everyday its only the first round. If the rifle sits for a week then its 3 rounds. Thats with the ruger not cleaned in 15k the RimX at 3000 there is no cold bore yet. But I cleaned the chamber tonight just because. Should shoot in the 2s now.

 

[Gleedus]

Tim is correct. Leade angle and throat are synonymous in .22LR. As Mike Bellm put it, "technically .22 LR does not have a throat since the bullet is the same approx. dia. as the brass case, thus the chamber is cut the same diameter all the way from the rim to a point past the bullet." Chamber Throats 101 - A basic on the importance of a firearms throat (lasc.us)

In Rifleman's Guide to Rimfire Ammo, author Steve Boelter explains it like this:

"Leade Angle - This dimension is the single most important dimension within the chamber that influences accuracy.... This angle is measured in degrees and describes the angle of trasition from the larger chamber area to the smaller diameter bore. The leade angle, also known as the throat, is the first thing a bullet touches as it's being chambered...."

As for the carbon ring, it occurs right at the case mouth, on the leade angle. It's the result of carbon residue from the burning powder. It builds up over time and it contributes to a loss of accuracy, which can be sudden. The carbon ring can only be seen with a bore scope. It can't be shot out by continuing to shoot. It must be eliminated with traditional cleaning methods and/or the regular use of carbon removing solvents with a focus on the leade area.

I understand what your saying. I guess as the case and bullet are the same diameter technically there is nothing to measure. Coming from CF it was the simplest way to describe where in the chamber we are talking.

Technically from the case mouth to the leade would be the throat.

I appreciate you explaining how it is with the 22lr.

Also I appreciate very much that you answered the question I incorrectly asked. I have learned something. Unfortunately @Tim7139 seems to enjoy pointing out how people are wrong with out actually helping. It is unfortunate that so much knowledge will be lost.

 

[orkan]

I hadn't fired my rifle I used today for several weeks. Probably a couple months actually. First round went exactly where I would expect it to go. No first round shift. 11k rounds since cleaned.

It's strange to me that the concept that someone might have figured something out that doesn't have the problems people have grown to accept as "normal," is met with such hostility and nastiness.

Not unexpected, but certainly strange.

 

[littlepod]

I hadn't fired my rifle I used today for several weeks. Probably a couple months actually. First round went exactly where I would expect it to go. No first round shift. 11k rounds since cleaned.

It's strange to me that the concept that someone might have figured something out that doesn't have the problems people have grown to accept as "normal," is met with such hostility and nastiness.

Not unexpected, but certainly strange.

You do mention that you clean your rifle, which part? Just the bolt?

 

[Tokay444]

I understand what your saying. I guess as the case and bullet are the same diameter technically there is nothing to measure. Coming from CF it was the simplest way to describe where in the chamber we are talking.

Technically from the case mouth to the leade would be the throat.

I appreciate you explaining how it is with the 22lr.

Also I appreciate very much that you answered the question I incorrectly asked. I have learned something. Unfortunately @Tim7139 seems to enjoy pointing out how people are wrong with out actually helping. It is unfortunate that so much knowledge will be lost.

Case mouth to leade is freebore. Leade is still the throat.