Large caliber Sniper rifle Bore Cleaning.

[zfk55sr]

High pressure, fast moving projectiles meant for 1,000+ yard shooting? How do you treat your bore?
This one is a prelude to one I'd like to post as concerns keeping your .50 bmg. .416 Rigby. .338LM, .300 WinMag,
M39 EMR, Windrunner, Cheytac, M89sr, 2000HTR and a myriad of others now available. Want to double and triple your barrel life?

The drawback is that ICP's and a treated bore must be used, but this is the prelude. I'll post the entire process later.
Many of you might blow this off as simplistic. There are maybe 45+ rifles in the armoury, and this is the ONLY process we use.
Swiss K31 barrels are VERY expensive to replace, as in $1,200.oo and the 1911 series and the zfk55 barrels? Forget it.
We've done only this for going on 10 years without one single failure to completely remove carbon and copper fouling.

We begin by stripping the chambers, throats and bore with Wipe Out. Its an ammonia free, water based bore cleaner that removes literally everything. Carbon, copper, any kind of fouling including Moly. We set the rifle horizontally in the bench holder, plug the breech end, insert the nozzle at the muzzle, let the foam expand till it bleeds back out the bore. Leave the Foam Type Wipe Out in the bore and throat overnight and then dry swab everything. NO BRUSHES! (Unless chamber fouling is extremely heavy)

The use of ANY bore brushes shortens barrel life........ yes, even Nylon brushes. A new replacement barrel for a k31 can cost you anywhere from $700 to $1,500 by the time it gets here from Switzerland.

We do a follow-up inspection for any copper residue with a Hawekeye Pro Borescope. A completely clean and 100% copper free bore is essential for the hBN application.
A simple check with the Hawkeye Pro Borescope will tell you the microscopic truth.

If you have a severe carbon buildup in the chamber problem, Montana Extreme is the one we use with a nylon bristle brush to fit the chamber. Usually a .45 caliber with a spinning action.
If your rifle is to be stored for any real length of time, we use Lubriplate 930 on a cotton swab and pass it down the barrel. When it's taken out to shoot again, just pass a clean patch on a jag down the bore and you're ready.

This simple process pretty much left a ton of other cleaners, removers and brushes untouched on the shelves for a very long time now. No brush of any kind touches any bore in the armoury. Dry patches on a jag, and that's it.

Sound too simple? Try it and make it prove itself to you.

This is the barrel prep part.......... The rest of this barrel saving process will come tomorrow.

 

[sandwarrior]

High pressure, fast moving projectiles meant for 1,000+ yard shooting? How do you treat your bore?
This one is a prelude to one I'd like to post as concerns keeping your .50 bmg. .416 Rigby. .338LM, .300 WinMag,
M39 EMR, Windrunner, Cheytac, M89sr, 2000HTR and a myriad of others now available. Want to double and triple your barrel life?

The drawback is that ICP's and a treated bore must be used, but this is the prelude. I'll post the entire process later.
Many of you might blow this off as simplistic. There are maybe 45+ rifles in the armoury, and this is the ONLY process we use.
Swiss K31 barrels are VERY expensive to replace, as in $1,200.oo and the 1911 series and the zfk55 barrels? Forget it.
We've done only this for going on 10 years without one single failure to completely remove carbon and copper fouling.

We begin by stripping the chambers, throats and bore with Wipe Out. Its an ammonia free, water based bore cleaner that removes literally everything. Carbon, copper, any kind of fouling including Moly. We set the rifle horizontally in the bench holder, plug the breech end, insert the nozzle at the muzzle, let the foam expand till it bleeds back out the bore. Leave the Foam Type Wipe Out in the bore and throat overnight and then dry swab everything. NO BRUSHES! (Unless chamber fouling is extremely heavy)

The use of ANY bore brushes shortens barrel life........ yes, even Nylon brushes. A new replacement barrel for a k31 can cost you anywhere from $700 to $1,500 by the time it gets here from Switzerland.

We do a follow-up inspection for any copper residue with a Hawekeye Pro Borescope. A completely clean and 100% copper free bore is essential for the hBN application.
A simple check with the Hawkeye Pro Borescope will tell you the microscopic truth.

If you have a severe carbon buildup in the chamber problem, Montana Extreme is the one we use with a nylon bristle brush to fit the chamber. Usually a .45 caliber with a spinning action.
If your rifle is to be stored for any real length of time, we use Lubriplate 930 on a cotton swab and pass it down the barrel. When it's taken out to shoot again, just pass a clean patch on a jag down the bore and you're ready.

This simple process pretty much left a ton of other cleaners, removers and brushes untouched on the shelves for a very long time now. No brush of any kind touches any bore in the armoury. Dry patches on a jag, and that's it.

Sound too simple? Try it and make it prove itself to you.

This is the barrel prep part.......... The rest of this barrel saving process will come tomorrow.

I've been brushless for years.

 

[zfk55sr]

Yeaaah........... I've seen a number of you guys on YouTube, but we're going to need proof. Post a photo of your teeth please.

 

[zfk55sr]

Before we get into ICPs and barrel sealing, I'd like to post this one first for purely Swiss rifle shooters as the correct alternative.
From my Archives:

Care of your Swiss Rifles: Different era, different methods.

The discussion that Mike and I had about G11 and k31 acuracy differences poses a question. I discounted the Swiss comparisons done pre-1955 for a reason. Those results are not applicable to the same rifles that are now 75 to 100 years later. The only true meter of those findings are similar comparisons with today's rifles........ Rifles in the hands of American Swiss rifle shooters.
First I'd like to post an excerpt from something I wrote quite some time ago.
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So your rifle came to you in the usual condition of the k31. Stock a bit beat up but with most of the metal finish intact and sharp, shiney lands and grooves, and you intend to keep it that way.
Stop and think about this. The rifle came to you in the condition in which the Swiss soldier and Armoury kept it for many years. Is it not then a reasonable assumption that you'd follow the same maintenance ritual that has kept it in that condition for so many years? Maybe, but the average American shooter believes strongly in all of the advertising hype and testimonials to a myriad of maintenance products deemed absolutely necessary to keep a rifle as pristine as possible, few of which are factually relevant to the k31 barrel.

The Armoury and the well instructed Swiss soldier used a product called Waffenfett, or weapon grease. A close and reasonable approximation in the US is Lubriplate 930. The barrel is swabbed with 930, running a patch back and forth followed by a dry patch. At the end of the shooting session while the barrel is still hot or warm, the lubriplate is worked back into the barrel and left that way until the next shooting session when a dry patch is run back through removing the excess lubriplate. That's it. If carbon in the throat and chamber become an issue from firing reloads, use a good carbon remover such as Montana Extreme, but leave the bore alone. It is a fact that excessive bore cleaning with brushes can and will shorten your barrel life.

If, by shooting reloaded cartridges utilizing copper jacketed projectiles, your bore shows copper fouling, use a product such as WipeOut to remove it. This kind of a product fulfills it's task without continual scrubbing of the bore.

This may sound like an overly simple approach, and the typical US shooter is usually a ready recipient of industry marketing efforts and barrel maintenance, but use this logic. My 50+ year old rifle came to me with a truly amazing bore. Why would I not then follow the maintenance practices of the Armoury and Soldier that delivered it to me in this condition?

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The grease is used for three purposes being cleaning, lubricating and protecting and the last can be divided in normal use and storage.

To start with the cleaning first, before shooting the Swiss run a pad through the bore to clean out the grease there and from the bolt face, they do that with the help of a grease rod, that ones comes with a jag for a pad and a black grease brush.
Immediately after shooting they run that black brush with Automatenfett through the still hot bore, put some grease on the bolt face and leave it like that. After they get home they clean it all from the grease, get a bore rope or cleaning brush through the bore and after that they lube it all again with fresh grease that stays on till the next shooting match.
The grease dissolves the fouling and makes cleaning way more easy as using oil.

Lubricating during normal use is only done on few spots, the most important ones are the flat (or round with the older straight pulls) inside receiver sliding part of the operating rod and the tip of the operating rod where it enters the bolt sleeve groove, that area needs to be lubed well.
There should be no grease inside the bolt or at the outside but it won't hurt to use a tiny bit in the locking nut area.
Do not use too much grease, the manual reads for the K31 "battle lubricating"......NONE , so the above is only to make your rifle operate more smoothly with less wear, after all the shooting range is no battle field.

The protecting part is easy, Automatenfett can be used on bare metal to protect it against corrosion, use it limited especially on moving parts as we don't want sand to stick to these.

For storage, the -"Parkdienstschmierung" as they say there- it's easy also;
Barrel inside and outside, greased
Chamber, greased
Trigger assembly, inside bolt and hammer piece, NO grease (still the arsenals did not follow that rule that well as examples show)
Bare metal parts, greased
Blued parts, greased

The storage part is the reason why so many new owners of K31's in the USA think that they are in Cosmoline which is not the case, when they have been in storage in Swiss arsenals for a long time they are still well protected by the old yellow Waffenfett, the more recent ones are well protected by black Automatenfett.

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So, lets talk about "today".
It's not real surprise that your rifle came to you with eather a nearly, or a factual prisine barrel......... sharp lands/grooves and not showing much throat wear at all. Your Swiss rifle is a Rockwell Hardness of somewhere around a RH42, can't find my notes and can't really remember, but suffice it to say that these rifles are a fair bit harder than other military issue rifles and right in there with Lilja competition barrels.

Those of you who know me from the SRDC know that I don't believe in brushes for barrels. My logic is written somewhere in the preceding paragraphs, but suffice it to say that, all things being equal, a Swiss rifle made in 1910 or in 1930 will not have changed much at all in accuracy, but the one factor we're dealing with today that was not a part of those original accuray comparisons is the stock, and a stock that old can definitely affect how the rifle shoots today, not then. Below is another excerpt from my archives on that very subject.
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Just so we have some reality into this.......... I've always said that there are many k31's that work very well with the preloaded stock, but the stock has to be an "as original issued" stable stock. Sometimes improper storage and simple age will cause a stock to apply pressure in the wrong direction, and those rifles are the main reason for our using spacers and screw balance to accurize our rifles. We never, ever remove wood.

Another possible way is to change the lug shim, but once again, if the stock puts pressure left or right on the barrel, then that may not help much. When I said that every rifle in the armoury is set up with his accurizing technique, that doesn't mean that yours must be. It's just like reloading. There are many ways to get to a great end result, not just this way. It works for us based on the stock/barrel relationship of our individual rifles.

Check your forestock. Is the blackened area only straight down on the bottom. or does is show an uneven area of dark wood to the left, right, off dead center or the upper foregrip? And don't forget that the flanges on the front ring must be tight and solid. The stock should not be flopping around when fired.
I strongly disagree with the notion that my method accurizing these Swiss rifles is a mistake. It depends entirely on the current stock/rifle relationship, and in the past 20 years I've proven that many times over right here in the SP armoury.

Do what works best for you, and it might be that your k31's preloaded stock is perfectly fine, but because of the age and storage of these rifles, I've found that to be a minor exception........ Not necessarily the rule.
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The above excerpt is an observation about TODAY's rifle in the hands of TODAY's shooters......... not pre-1955. Stocks are subject to different time/change realities than Swiss rifle steel. The maintenance booklet that I have pertains to the realities and methodology of YESTERDAY.......... Not 100 years later. You can logically surmise that we're factually dealing with a different comparison basis today as opposed to yesteryear.
The fact that something being Swiss-Made does not make it the end all. We expect Swiss made items to be of the highest quality, but the reality is that we, in the US, are fully capable of matching the Swiss in manufacuring, albeit not as a matter of course. Those US manufacturers in the firearms world today produce some of the finest firearms in the world. Our little hole in the wall here in Montana produces accessories that are every bit as good as you'll find in Switzerland, and our Swiss distributor has taken years to prove this. We sell well in Switzerland, and we're not magic. Any dedicated Mfg in the US is capable of the same thing, maybe even better.

That being said, is there a reason to religeously follow the maintenance requisites of 1911 or 1931 manuals? Unless you're a cranky old staid-in-his-ways guy like me...... of course not.

Just as in reloading and projectile hard-casting, there are many ways to arrive at a solid end result.

 

[Derek200]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??

 

[zfk55sr]

??? Did I say something wrong?

 

[sandwarrior]

??? Did I say something wrong?

No...it just takes a bit to read that. Not sure if Derek understood the context of that last post.

 

[towerofpower93]

We set the rifle horizontally in the bench holder, plug the breech end, insert the nozzle at the muzzle, let the foam expand till it bleeds back out the bore. Leave the Foam Type Wipe Out in the bore and throat overnight and then dry swab everything. NO BRUSHES! (Unless chamber fouling is extremely heavy)

I have a buddy who has been doing this for the past few years, but I believe he plugs the muzzle with a soft ear plug and stands the rifle on its now plugged muzzle, filling it to the chamber and letting it sit overnight.

How do you go about plugging the chamber end so the foaming cleaner doesn't leak out overnight? The foam ear plug in the muzzle seems pretty straightforward, but plugging a chamber, with all its different shapes, would seem a less straight forward proposition.

Also, I presume when you say "horizontal" you actually have the rifle oriented slightly muzzle up in the bench holder? I'd imagine the cleaner would slowly leak out as it goes from foam to liquid overnight and run all over the place unless held at a slight muzzle up angle, but want to confirm.

I only use brass brushes on chrome lined AR barrels where the gas block and tube makes use of an overnight soak with foaming/liquid cleaners a risky proposition (but maybe it's a non-issue???), and bore snakes on some bolt gun barrels, but have been thinking about trying the foaming cleaners in a plugged barrel followed by patches after hearing the rave reviews from my buddy and now yourself.

Thanks for the substantive write-ups to this point.

 

[zfk55sr]

TOP, back to you in the morning. Bad typing day today. Sorry.
P

 

[zfk55sr]

I have a buddy who has been doing this for the past few years, but I believe he plugs the muzzle with a soft ear plug and stands the rifle on its now plugged muzzle, filling it to the chamber and letting it sit overnight.

Sorry, TOP93. I forgot to answer you.
We stock a fair bit or Wipe out in both the liquid canisters and the foam. It's actually a waste of the liquid form of the product to stand the rifle vertical and fill the bore. Horizontally, the foam product expands and fills the bore. It slowly turns to liquid, but not before doing it's job on the copper. We plug the breech with a patch on the neck of an expended cartridge, and it works fine. Flowing the foam from the breech end with the muzzle plugged is just as good, but.......... The foam turns to liquid and then can drip down into the receiver. You could always plug both ends, but as the saying goes.......... "All roads lead to Rome". There's not just one way to do it.

And, a note........ The correct method of using the liquid is to get a patch saturated with Wipe Out and work it back and forth in the bore until a "foam" is created and then left to stand. Easier to use the foam and no wear on the lands by excessive brushing.

 

[eicas]

I’m debating whether to use Patch Out and Accellerator on the K11 or just let it be. The bore looks very nice. But it still is 100years old. I cleaned a K98k using it, and it took an honest 50 rounds to get it back shooting decent again. The patches sure were blue though!

 

[zfk55sr]

eicas, the real difference between those two rifles and the lands is that the Swiss Rifle has a much harder bore. Getting your 98k's bore "filled in" again with residue is the reason it shot well again. Minor pitting is going to change the performance of the bore, and in the case of most military standard issue bores, that filling of the tiny pits really helps.

If you get the opportunity to see any older military (and even some brand new) barrels through Hawkeye Pro Borescope, you'll see what looks like a rocky road the length of the barrel. It's really eye opening. Bore Lights show nothing of the true surface of the lands and grooves.
That nominal RH38 factor of the Swiss rifles changes the entire "bore maintenance" game.

 

[eicas]

Thanks. I’ll put that on my list before I mount the action back on the stock. Yea...Quite the difference in care and storage techniques between the two as well I’d imagine.

 

[towerofpower93]

@zfk55sr

Thanks much for the info. He uses the foaming Wipeout and does the fill 'er up trick with the rifle standing on its plugged muzzle in a bucket. Says that when he pulls the plug he just sees a bunch of blue/green crud roll out.

Might need to get some of the foaming stuff to try on my 6.5x47L bolt gun and see how it does.

Thanks again for the insight.

 

[sandwarrior]

I put the rifle in the cleaning/clamp rest. I then put my finger over 7/8's of the muzzle. With the other hand I feed the soft plastic tube of the bore foam can down the chamber until it seats on the bore. Then slowly fill the bore until it squirts out from the slight hole I left for the bore. When that happens I slowly backfill some of the chamber as I pull out the tube. Let it set overnight in a cool room and in the morning wipe out more crap than you could ever imagine. But, the bores are super shiny.

 

[towerofpower93]

I put the rifle in the cleaning/clamp rest. I then put my finger over 7/8's of the muzzle. With the other hand I feed the soft plastic tube of the bore foam can down the chamber until it seats on the bore. Then slowly fill the bore until it squirts out from the slight hole I left for the bore. When that happens I slowly backfill some of the chamber as I pull out the tube. Let it set overnight in a cool room and in the morning wipe out more crap than you could ever imagine. But, the bores are super shiny.

Hmm, I could give that a go with my simple benchtop vise and a container under the muzzle to catch the foam as it turns into liquid and runs out the muzzle.

You just run patches from chamber to muzzle to get the rest of the gunk out the next day?

 

[zfk55sr]

Yep. Run a dry follow up patch or two just to confirm.
If you've never done the process before and have heavy coppering you may have to do it twice, but after that, just once in a while for maintenance but not the overnight process. Foam the bore, give it 10 minutes and patch dry it.

 

[sandwarrior]

Hmm, I could give that a go with my simple benchtop vise and a container under the muzzle to catch the foam as it turns into liquid and runs out the muzzle.

You just run patches from chamber to muzzle to get the rest of the gunk out the next day?

Somehow forgot to say, I leave the muzzle slightly downwards. And yes, several patches the next morning to get it really clean. I usually also use a solvent to loosen up and dried borefoam after running patches clean.

 

[towerofpower93]

Thanks much

ETA: to confirm, this is what I'm wanting, right: Wipeout

And I presume this is the applicator everyone is talking about using to get it in the muzzle/chamber without going everywhere Applicator, or does it come with a simple straw attached to the can?

 

[sandwarrior]

This is the stuff I use:
http://outfittersworld.com/gunslick-foam-bore-cleaner-liquid-12-ounce-92098/

 

[zfk55sr]

TOP93, yup. Wipeout......... just insert the tube down the barrel and give it a short shot. It expands tremendously and fast.
Plug the breech end and put a rag on the deck under the muzzle, then...........
Go be nice to your wife.

 

[zfk55sr]

Might be the same sort of schtuff, SW...... Is it a water based ammonia free foam? I can't read the copy.

P

 

[zfk55sr]

Found a review from their website...... I dunno, bro...... and I'm not so sure about his content analysis,

3.0 out of 5 starsGreat general cleaner, not so great for copper
November 2, 2016
Size: 12-OunceVerified Purchase
I just finished sighting in my bench rest .308, which has had about 200 rounds through it with only a minor cleaning. The last 2-3" of my bore have some pretty nice copper deposits, enough that I can easily reflect a bore light on them and see them speckling like fool's gold. I tried Gunslick last night, following the directions: Spray, let sit for 30 minutes with the breach/bore plugged up, ran patches through until no discoloration. This product seemed to get out a lot of carbon/powder fouling that was left over after my regular cleaning, and left my bore shiny and like-new. It definitely serves as an excellent cleaner, and gets rid of the need to use any brushes. That said, my copper fouling remains. This product is nice because it contains no ammonia, but it's also not so great... because it contains no ammonia.

Ammonia reacts with copper, forming a hydroxide in order to un-seat it from the bore. This is a chemical reaction, and this is what really gets copper out of your bore safely - with no potentially damaging mechanical efforts like using bore brushes, etc. But while I saw some minor bluing of my patches (indicating copper reaction/removal) my speckles still largely remain. While it's good to condition a bore and have those lands and micro-grooves filled for consistent accuracy, I feel there is too much copper still left, which is affecting accuracy (my groupings started getting away from me, having been less than 0.5 MOA and then quick rising to over 1 MOA). I'm going to be trying Sweets 7.62 for the copper, but I'll certainly keep this as my regular cleaner.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??

This is Overland Streetgang, over...

 

[sandwarrior]

Found a review from their website...... I dunno, bro...... and I'm not so sure about his content analysis,

3.0 out of 5 starsGreat general cleaner, not so great for copper
November 2, 2016
Size: 12-OunceVerified Purchase
I just finished sighting in my bench rest .308, which has had about 200 rounds through it with only a minor cleaning. The last 2-3" of my bore have some pretty nice copper deposits, enough that I can easily reflect a bore light on them and see them speckling like fool's gold. I tried Gunslick last night, following the directions: Spray, let sit for 30 minutes with the breach/bore plugged up, ran patches through until no discoloration. This product seemed to get out a lot of carbon/powder fouling that was left over after my regular cleaning, and left my bore shiny and like-new. It definitely serves as an excellent cleaner, and gets rid of the need to use any brushes. That said, my copper fouling remains. This product is nice because it contains no ammonia, but it's also not so great... because it contains no ammonia.

Ammonia reacts with copper, forming a hydroxide in order to un-seat it from the bore. This is a chemical reaction, and this is what really gets copper out of your bore safely - with no potentially damaging mechanical efforts like using bore brushes, etc. But while I saw some minor bluing of my patches (indicating copper reaction/removal) my speckles still largely remain. While it's good to condition a bore and have those lands and micro-grooves filled for consistent accuracy, I feel there is too much copper still left, which is affecting accuracy (my groupings started getting away from me, having been less than 0.5 MOA and then quick rising to over 1 MOA). I'm going to be trying Sweets 7.62 for the copper, but I'll certainly keep this as my regular cleaner.

I know the directions say no more than 30 mins. But, in the cold it takes longer. I leave it overnight in a cool room. It isn't corrosive and will penetrate stuff I hadn't gotten out before.

If I want copper out RIGHT NOW, I use Montana Extreme. Cold or warm, it takes it out. But, it is corrosive, doesn't get deep into the carbon gunk, and is nasty to the skin.

 

[zfk55sr]

I'm sure there must be competition for that product out there, but we settled on this one with great success and I've not persued testing other brands.
All roads led to Rome. .......... not just one.

 

[sandwarrior]

I'm sure there must be competition for that product out there, but we settled on this one with great success and I've not persued testing other brands.
All roads led to Rome. .......... not just one.

True. Don't change what's working.

 

[eicas]

I’ve used the liquid WipeOut and Accelerator with good results on other barrels. Home next week. Will do the G11.