Gunsmithing Lathe advice!

Rlbol

Rlbol

Master Gunnery Sergeant
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Minuteman
Nov 5, 2010
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FL
#1
I am looking at purchasing my first lathe.
Looking to primarily thread and chamber barrels.

smiths, let me know what you have and what you like and dislike about it. If you were in the market what would you buy?

As as far as sizing goes I donot have access to 3 phase power so that is my only limiting factory other then price. With that in mind what is the smallest that I can get away with?

What would you be limiting job wise wise with a smaller lathe versus a larger bed?
 
#2
If you are threading and clambering you could get by with a short bed but there are always thing come up that requires a longer bed both min are 40 inch but it's almost to short some times I have a early 90 s clausing and a precision Mathews made for gunsmithing the biggest thing is to get one with at lest 1 1/2 hole through the head stock I haven't used one but a lot of people use grizzly but if you can afford it a lathe made in Taiwan is considered better quality but between my clausing and PM I like the causing best controls are just easer to use but that is just personal preference a lathe that is 13-40 is a good size for what your doing and as far as 3 phase you can just buy a phase converter not sure if this helps any good luck
 
#3
What's your budget? I'm using a South Bend 10K with a 48" bed. Everything must be done between centers and I'm nearly out of bed length on some barrels.
 
#4
Get the largest lathe you can get away with......ive never heard anyone say , "damn, i really wish i got the smaller lathe"
 
#5
Ditto the 1.5" headstock bore. With the ability to put the barrel in the bore of the lathe, you can make a 4 screw spider for dialing in/holding the barrel in the outside end of the headstock. Oh, and buy yourself a good Quick-change tool post.

A Noga (brand) MC1700 MINI-COOL KIT too;

https://www.amazon.com/Noga-MC1700-...8&qid=1493064739&sr=1-1&keywords=Noga+MC17001. You'll need it for cutting the barrel trunion threads, pretty much for all exterior turning.
 
#7
Watch Craigslist (and be patient). I looked at a lot of lathes there and surprise, surprise, the majority of the listings were both grungy and expensive. Have your cash ready to go and watch C/L religiously. The right machine/deal will probably come along, but you will need to move quickly, so as to not get beat out by the next guy.

I'm in the greater Seattle area and Grizzly is in Bellingham, not a terrible drive to go visit their showroom. The Jet North American Distribution office is in Auburn, also not a bad drive. They have a scratch and dent warehouse, which is where I bought my 13x40. I would suggest continuing to look for a good used American lathe, but I'm not unhappy with my Jet. The Grizzly probably has the most bang for the buck for a new machine.
 
#8
There are several lathes made in the 12x24 or 12x36 footprint that should suit you, IF you choose one with a 1.5 inch (+-) spindle bore.
Grizzly, Precision Matthews, Birmingham, Kent all import lathes in that envelope.
Most are 220 single phase, some can be had as 110v.
90% are made in China, the slightly more expensive ones are typically made in Taiwan (Kent and some of the Precision Matthews), these tend to be better.
The problem with buying a used lathe is reconditioning one.
That can run more money than the lathe.
Both Grizzly and Precision Matthews have good reputations for after the sale support, very important for imported lathes.
 
#9
Bigger bore is better, longer bed is better, heavier is better. But all of that is trumped by condition and available parts to fix worn out parts.

For larger lathes i whole hartely recomend Kingston HD22-90s

I use a Clasing 11" for gun smithing that I picked up used from a university lab. I really wish the bore was bigger but...,, I have other lathes for larger jobs.

If I could only own one I would look for a 16-40 or 16-60 Victor. The were pretty good.

The he ability to cut metric threads is a big plus that I do not have with the clausing since the gears are missing and I was not willing to give Clausing $200.00 more for 2 gears and a sticker than I gave for the lathe!
 
#11
I played the old used lathe game for several years and finally gave up and bought a new Chinese lathe. Specifically a precision Matthews 1236. I'm sure there are nice used lathes out there to be had, but I went through 3 and gave up but I never lived in or near a machine rich part of the country. I really liked my pm1236, I was finally able to easily and accurately cut threads and hold dimensions much easier than my Logan and 2 southbends I previously had. I bought a bison 4 jaw scroll chick to replace the 3 jaw that came with it but other than that, I don't have much to complain about.

I recently sold my 2 precision Matthew machines to buy a Taiwanese pm1340gt. It has a larger spindle bore and I was able to get the taper attachment with it. It should be here tomorrow or Wednesday so I'm super excited. I can't personally attest to the fit and finish just yet, but everything anyone has to say about these is nothing but good. If you have the money, I'd get the 1-1/2" spindle bore like this machine has.
 
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#12
I have a pm1340gt and it's been excellent.

TC308 said:
I played the old used lathe game for several years and finally gave up and bought a new Chinese lathe. Specifically a precision Matthews 1236. I'm sure there are nice used lathes out there to be had, but I went through 3 and gave up but I never lived in or near a machine rich part of the country. I really liked my pm1236, I was finally able to easily and accurately cut threads and hold dimensions much easier than my Logan and 2 southbends I previously had. I bought a bison 4 jaw scroll chick to replace the 3 jaw that came with it but other than that, I don't have much to complain about.

I recently sold my 2 precision Matthew machines to buy a Taiwanese pm1340gt. It has a larger spindle bore and I was able to get the taper attachment with it. It should be here tomorrow or Wednesday so I'm super excited. I can't personally attest to the fit and finish just yet, but everything anyone has to say about these is nothing but good. If you have the money, I'd get the 1-1/2" spindle bore like this machine has.
Click to expand...

 
#13
Depends on how you plan to do your work- through the headstock, or between centers.
If you plan to work through the headstock spindle bore, you need a spindle bore large enough to accommodate any size barrel you might work on. Bed length becomes largely irrelevant.

Threading and chambering between centers (yes- some of us still do this) requires a long bed- at least 34"-36" between centers.

Longer beds cost more $$...but even if you plan on working through the headstock it will give you more versatility down the road if you get the longest bed you can afford.
 
#14
I was really hoping to do threading and chambering in the head stock as it just seems that it would be far more ridged verses centers?

So so after looking more and more I was really hoping on finding a used America or older lathe. Everything I find has a far to small bore dia. Or is way more expensive then buying a new model.

after looking at Mathews, they seem to really offer a lot for the price! Looks like you can pick one up from Taiwan with 2" bore setup with DRO for less then 8k.

so my new question is how do they compare with the grizzly? I hear both have good customer service. Neither are any where near me, owners please chime in and give me your experience with both?
 
#15
I called quality machine when I was looking he had a PM that they didn't advertise that was made for gun smithing that had large hole through the head stock and high precision bearings in headstock also he thought you got more for your money mine does anything I need it to do it's a 14-40 shipping was really responsible to might be good place to start the guy there is awesome to deal with to good luck
 
#16
Tagging to follow. I'm in the same boat as the OP and stuck between the PM 12X36 with preferred package, and the Grizzly G4003G. Only benefit to the Grizzly that I can find is that it comes with an outboard spider, whereas the PM cones with coolant system, QC tool post and 5 holders and a few other things. Right now, I'm leaning heavily toward the PM.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 
#20
broken yes.....but the quote i was referring to said worn out.

presumably youd machine the replacements while your parts have some life in it......i mean hell, my machine has 50 thou of backlash.....still chambers my match rifles just fine.

that being said, what the fuck are you guys breaking on your lathes?
 
#21
My SB is older than I am....beautifully simple (as they should be) and like mcameron says, nothing to "break" unless you were to crash it. And with a DRO, who gives a shit about backlash and uneven leadscrew wear...
 
#22
I figure anyone asking the question on this board as to what machine to buy for gunsmithing is probably not a machinist, that's not a slight against them, just a guess I'm making.

With time, talent, temperament, material and working equipment just about anything can be repaired or reproduced. There was a thread on here recently of a lathe being rebuilt and it was beautiful, that guy had it all together in one place in spades. When it comes to repairing older lathes, of the Time, Talent, Temperament, Material and Working Equipment needed(T,T,T,M,WE) I'm usually missing 2 of the T's and the M or WE. I prefer to be able to look up a part# and buy OEM parts

As to how machines get broke, Let me count the ways :) I have seen tail stocks chained to carriages and the feed engaged to pull a 2-1/2" twist drill thru 4140 110MYS steel, I have seen a Hyd ram hooked to a tail stock to push a 3" twist drill thru 4140 110MYS (different machine shop), I didn't see it but I was told of a Mazak Nexus 350II that magically levitated when a off balance 4-1/2"OD 1" wall 10ft long part ramped up to 1000 RPM

I'd say there are 2 camps of people that buy new equipment and then at some point later sell it as used.

Camp 1 people buy a a piece of equipment and do everything possible to make sure it last the rest of their lives. When they sell their businesses, or when their widows sell their toys the stuff is immaculate! looks brand new and runs brand new.

Camp 2 people buy equipment and wear it out as fast as they can knowing that they are making enough money with it to replace it 10 times over when it is worn out.and they plan on it being worn out.

Just 2 different mind sets to keep in mind when looking at used equipment.

FWIW

Russell

 
#23
txfireguy2003 said:
Tagging to follow. I'm in the same boat as the OP and stuck between the PM 12X36 with preferred package, and the Grizzly G4003G. Only benefit to the Grizzly that I can find is that it comes with an outboard spider, whereas the PM cones with coolant system, QC tool post and 5 holders and a few other things. Right now, I'm leaning heavily toward the PM.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

A spider is really easy to make, that was the first thing I made on and for my pm1236
 
#24
TC308 said:
A spider is really easy to make, that was the first thing I made on and for my pm1236
Click to expand...
Was thinking the exact same thing. Having no lathe experience, I figure it'll be a good project to start learning basics. Eventually, I will thread and chamber my own rifles, but I know that's a good distance down the road. I figure I have to start somewhere though, or I'll never get there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 
#25
I have one of the earlier Jet 12X36 Taiwan lathes. Got it in the early 80s and it still works today. Also got a Jet 16 Mill/Drill. With a little bit of playing, even my simple mind can make all sorts of stuff. I also got a Taiwan 6x18 Lathe which is great for little stuff.

I'm not a machinist but I believe its the tooling that makes a lathe.

Don't need fancy. The greatest gun designer in history used this little lathe.

IMG_0202.JPG


Picture taken at the John M. Browning Museum in Logan UT.
 
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#26
^^
That SB 9" lathe (that's a very early one natch)-through it's many decades and iterations (A,B,C) was commonly used by smiths for countless barrels- including many benchresters through the 60's and 70"s.
Have a beautiful one myself (much later vintage than the one shown), fully restored, longest bed they made. Less than .0002 TIR on my spindle collet chuck, and with the DRO I can control doc to less than a thou. Now, if I can only find a worthwhile Heavy 10 to put alongside it...

The earlier Taiwanese machinery was solid as a rock. I've got a large "Central Machinery" (before the HF days lol) 1980's vintage Taiwanese drill press that's overbuilt and solid as a rock- wouldn't trade it for anything.
 
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#27
After much consideration, I have decided to order a PM1236.
I looked very hard at the Grizzly G4003, and was rather enamored by the number of threads it cuts, along with the advantages of the norton gear box and the pre-installed spider.
Ultimately, I decided that I would never need all those extra threading options, as I will be doing barrel installs and maybe some minor fabrication, the rest of the PM1236 preferred package, made it a bit of a no-brainer.
If I ever get good enough to start doing it for money, I'll invest in the Taiwan made machines.
 
#29
diverdon said:
Fdkay, don't you have a buddy who has a machine shop? Why not use his?
Click to expand...

Honestly, I hate using other peoples shit.
If I crash my lathe, it's my lathe, I'll be mad at myself, but won 't feel guilty about damaging someone else's stuff.
I don't like to drive someone else's car either.
He has given me a few lessons on his, I have been kicking this around for over a year and I want to eventually do some work part time.
I've got the room now and I need something to keep me off the porn sites!
 
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#30
The best gunsmithing machine on the market today "manual machine" is the New South Bend heavy 10 that grizzly tool is having made and selling.
Built in VFD and smooth as silk. One guy above made the comment about buying the biggest machine you can. Thats kinda silly in my opinion for gun work. I have a 16" machine and i do love the lathe but i use my little heavy ten 9 out of 10 jobs. The new Heavy 10 is just perfect. i can do short BR type barrels and i can do long long barrels. the spindle comes with a 1.5" hole so the only barrels i cant do are rail gun blanks. Where this little machine really shines, is when im truing up a rem 700. i can set up on that inside thread 3 times as fast as i can on my big machine. The reason i can set up so fast is simply because i can see inside the action better.
If gun work is your goal dont go out and buy a big ass machine. you just dont need it. Check out this new SB at grizzly. These machines are made to very closely paid attention to detail. Be prepared to wait if you want one because they dont just crank these out the door. quality takes a little time, and these machines are quality. amazing really.. Lee Lee Gardner Precision
 
#31
I own a heavy 10 and a PM1440BV. I hate the tiny beautifully engraved number divisionson my SB. The cheap Chinese like dials on the PM are just easier to see. The SB is a whole lot better fit/finish. They both produce a nice finish, but the PM will hog material and the sb takes light cuts.

Either would work for a gun lathe, but the 14" is just easier to use.
 
#33
p8nt said:
Pick something heavy, smooth, has a thru hole of at least 1 5/8 inside diameter and has 30" in between centers. I use a Monarch EE.
Click to expand...

If you have the 30" Monarch I'm officially jealous. I've heard of them but have not seen one in the flesh.

I am taking delivery on a Harrison M300 in two weeks. First obstacle was finding a suitable machine for short money and with a bit of patience I did that. Next up was finding a rigger to move her for less than my mortgage. I got that accomplished as well. Getting a phase converter of some sort is next up. I'm not gonna rush it and we'll see what comes down the pike.

Then... tooling.

Oh gee, another pricey hobby. Yay!!!

To the OP, good luck with the PM. From all I hear they are great machines.
 
#35
I have 2 lathes a monarch EE and a clausing, both predate me and both hold less than .001 repeatablity. i think the big thing is when i worked in tool and die and was talking with the owner of the shop and also some of the other owners of other shops [we did overflow for them] they said look for tool room lathes and not a production one. their way of thinking was the screws and ways would be worn more uniform than a production one that pretty much stays in one area. The one thing I would higly suggest is to get a 5hp min and 3 phase. Anyone who does a machining will tell you the lathe or mill is the cheap part the tooling is the expensive side! Stan
 
#36
p8nt said:
Pick something heavy, smooth, has a thru hole of at least 1 5/8 inside diameter and has 30" in between centers. I use a Monarch EE.
Click to expand...

Interesting choice for a gunsmithing lathe, big fan of the old Made in the USA iron...but Isn't the headstock/spindle about two feet long? 30" c/c would be a tight chambering setup between centers...What setup do you use?
 
#38
Shanerbanner10 said:
What are your guys' thoughts on a PM-1340GT? I would likely get an aloris tool post, dro, and am torn at the moment between set tru style chuck or just stick with the ole trusty 4 jaw.
Click to expand...

I just took delivery of my 1340gt a couple weeks ago and love it so far. Very short spindle so short barrels will be doable no problem. Chambered my first bar on it yesterday and although it didn't go much different than my 12x36 Chinese machine, it was just different. Threads came out amazing and finish on everything else I've done up to this point came out great as well. I would recommend the machine without hesitation.
 
#39
TC308 said:
I just took delivery of my 1340gt a couple weeks ago and love it so far. Very short spindle so short barrels will be doable no problem. Chambered my first bar on it yesterday and although it didn't go much different than my 12x36 Chinese machine, it was just different. Threads came out amazing and finish on everything else I've done up to this point came out great as well. I would recommend the machine without hesitation.
Click to expand...

Did you go with any of the options? A buddy and I are hoping to order it soon. I was thinking it might be smarter to save the money from PM and order toolpost's, holders, and other extras from ebay or other sources. Ya i'm a cheap ass. lol
 
#40
I got the preferred package and the tape attachment with hopes of making contouring barrels easier but turns out it only tapers 10", so I'll have to mess with it but I don't see tapering 10" at a time really saving me any time. Might be a$600 waste but oh well.

As for tool post, Matt has pretty good prices and has always taken care of me, but I've sent him a lot of $$.
 
#41
TC308 said:
I got the preferred package and the tape attachment with hopes of making contouring barrels easier but turns out it only tapers 10", so I'll have to mess with it but I don't see tapering 10" at a time really saving me any time. Might be a$600 waste but oh well.

As for tool post, Matt has pretty good prices and has always taken care of me, but I've sent him a lot of $$.
Click to expand...

Turning/tapering barrels (offset tailstock) makes no sense for me. Standard contours run me $25...special, custom another $35 for the programming from the manuf. I sure as hell can't do that on a manual lathe for anything close to that cost. Taper attachment is a nice "have" that I might occasionally use for another purpose, but for barrels it's not cost effective.
 
#42
TopherNJ said:
If you have the 30" Monarch I'm officially jealous. I've heard of them but have not seen one in the flesh.
Click to expand...

One just sold at an auction I attended (where I bought my Gap-Bed Leblonde) for peanuts. And I knew the lathe. It was utterly perfect! Sold for $7.000. All converted to run on 220... with a DRO. I wanted to buy it, but spent all my money on the LeBlonde and I already have a Monarch 10EE.

But, yes, the 30 inch 10EE is a rare, rare machine. In that condition, it should have been $20K. Someone stole it!

Kraig: Those '70's and '80's Taiwan machine tools are utterly fantastic. Not like the current crop of mainland China junk that is made by people who use their toes in lieu of a bench vice. That lathe of yours will last several lifetimes. Loved the picture of Browning's lathe. I started with a 6" ex-navy Atlas. I still have it and use it mostly for threading.

Cheers,

Sirhr

P.S. A Monarch should hold tenths easily and all day....
 
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#43
No personal experience but have heard not a single negative other than a cheap drive belt on the PM 1340gt. If you have the funds and don't want to restore one that'd be a good way to go. You could buy a new clausing and have legacy support but they cost about 3-4 times as much.

I went the retro resto route and in fact I think my machine was mentioned above, but I have about 200-250 hours in the restoration and about $4000-$4500 in parts in it. The only reason to go that route is because you want to. It's not cheaper and it's certainly not easier.

20su90p.jpg


 
#44
Wannashootit said:
Turning/tapering barrels (offset tailstock) makes no sense for me. Standard contours run me $25...special, custom another $35 for the programming from the manuf. I sure as hell can't do that on a manual lathe for anything close to that cost. Taper attachment is a nice "have" that I might occasionally use for another purpose, but for barrels it's not cost effective.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%, but I just do my own stuff and for about 2-3 friends. And buying blanks saves me about $100 per so I thought it'd be a wash after a couple years and then I'd have the taper attachment for other uses like you said. Oh well, can never really have too many tools, I'll just throw it on the shelf for that one project 7 years from now and be happy I had the $600 attachment to make a $7 part, ha

 
#50
My lathe (a Colchester Mascot 1600) is dimensionally very big, meaning the length through the headstock was going to be bit of an issue on most std length barrels & i wasn't overly keen on the idea of spiders/catsheads fixtures etc & the potential for slippage etc, so built this instead:
My gimballing collet fixture.
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