Gunsmithing Lathe and mill suggestions

caustic

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Minuteman
Nov 27, 2009
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MB,Canada
Hey all I did a search to see if I could find any info and didn't, but if anyone has a link to a previous thread that talks about what brand of lathe and mill would best suit a gunsmith please put it up.

I'm in the market for a lathe and mill for my welding shop and would like something that is capable of producing quality parts for gunsmithing as I will want to get more in to it in the future I'd like to buy quality equipment the first time, I'm looking at new, middle of the road in price, I know with many thing you get what you pay for but funds are not unlimited and I'd still need tooling.

any guidance in this would be much appreciated

thanks
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

I have a 1 year old Chinese 12x36 lathe.
I have a 45 year old American vertical mill.

I am finally set up right for working my dozens of beater guns.
I wasted my time, with some old American and undersized Chinese lathes and a South Bend shaper, along the way.
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

I recently purchased a professional lathe for my shop and visited about 6 used equipment dealers in the last month. I saw a bunch of lathes and bridgeport mills in each location.

It's snowing like he## out here now, but if you give me your price range I will get you a few links once I get back to my shop.

I saw small bridgeport mills for as low as $2000 asking.

Buying a mill or a lathe qualifies for the "buy once cry once" deal, just like buying a quality optic.
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

Thanks for the link Im looking at the 14x40 heavyduty with the PM DRO or the 1440bv w/ PM DRO . the BV spindel bore should be large enough for whatever i need to do that is or is not related to gunsmithing. any comments on either one. a big PLUS free shipping to Canada
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

as for price ranges it would be great if I could buy a mill for 5000$ or so and a lathe for 6000$ or so plus a couple of grand on tooling. or better yet find an amazing deal and pay less for all of the above.
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

Buying a lathe or mill is easy. They are all really the same thing from the same factories in China.

The hard parts are:
1) The wife.
2) shop space
3) getting rid of the old lathe and mill.
4) new tooling
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

From your list the only major prob/expense will be your #4, all other I have covered.

Hay Clark, you have a Precision Matthews right? what do you think about the two models I'm looking at? I read in some older post of yours that your new lathe has gears that take 5min or so to change in order to change speeds, I would not like this in my new lathe , I couldn't find any references to that in these models, although I may have missed it. you had mentioned in that post that I came as a surprise to you do you think the two models I posted earlier would be the same as yours in that way?
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

You want a Hardinge screw lathe like a DSM-59. It is smallish but very precise and is capable of threading barrels or fabricating firing pins. If you choose another type of lathe, I would steer clear of gear head lathes as the free play in the gear assy induces chatter, ie imperfect finish cuts. Clutch head lathes produce much nicer finish passes.

Both of these are readily available used and are worth every penny. I have not see a chinese made machine tool that was worth owning.

Any bridgeport or bridgeport type vertical mill will work for you. Variable speed is a nice option to have, though the multiple pulley style will work.

Because setup is the most time consuming aspect of prototype machining, two vertical mills (as opposed to only having one) is hugely beneficial and a real time saver; you wont have to break down a setup to make other cuts.

Regarding money spent, keep in mind that whatever you spend on the machines themselves, you will spend approximately that much again on the tooling required to do the typical machining that the mill or lathe is capable of doing. Contrary to what the wife says, this is not wasted money. These tools are purchased once, but are used for the rest of your life.

Hope this helps your thought process when looking at these kind of tools.
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

Oh, it just occurred to me, the better equipment that you are going to find also requires 3 phase, 220 VAC. You may be able to pull that in off of the pole outside your house. I was not so lucky. Fortunately you can get a 3 phase generator that is simply an electric motor that converts single phase 220 to 3 phase 220. These are pretty cheap so dont waste your time with used ones that may be problematic and you will be set.

Cheers!
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

I know nothing about electricity but i done some reading and built my own 20hp rotary converter and have about $1500 in it which includes all of the wiring and control panel. I Can run all of my machines at once on it. They are pretty simple to do really. When i was inquiring about it one guy told me if you can read and you can wire a light switch you can build a rotary converter. From my knowledge i would not advise a static converter, The work but usually dont last because people usually use them more than they are intended for.
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

Rotary are better suited to handle the startup current that large motors require. Generally compressors and such take huge amounts of startup current. Lathes and mills dont have the surge, but run alot of equipment concurrently so I made sure to get a large-ish rotary convertor.

Wiring these up is a no brainer.
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: caustic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From your list the only major prob/expense will be your #4, all other I have covered.

Hay Clark, you have a Precision Matthews right? what do you think about the two models I'm looking at? I read in some older post of yours that your new lathe has gears that take 5min or so to change in order to change speeds, I would not like this in my new lathe , I couldn't find any references to that in these models, although I may have missed it. you had mentioned in that post that I came as a surprise to you do you think the two models I posted earlier would be the same as yours in that way?
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">October 07, 2009 My Precision Mathews PM1236 requires changing gears, a 5 minute process, to get from fine threads to coarse threads.
That was a rude surprise.

Unfortunately, the dividing line is between 20TPI Rem 700 and 12TPI Mauser.

The same change on my 1938 old Atlas takes 30 minutes.
The same change on my 1967 Clausing 5914 takes 10 seconds.
The same change on my brother's 1999 Jet 13x40 takes 10 seconds.

The Kent, Jet, Precision Mathews, GMC, Birmingham, Harbor Freight, the imported Clausing, etc. all come from the same designs in China. ~ 80% of the parts are interchangeable with the same size machines. </div></div>

LathePM1236with48teethonspindlegearcase117toothidlerand24teethonleadscrewgearboxforM98.jpg

LathePM1236plateongearcovershows12TPIwith48toothgearisontopand24toothonthebottomwhile20TPIrequires24ontopand48onbottom.jpg


If you look at the thread chart, there are 27 squares with the 48 tooth gear on top. 24 TPI shows up 6 different times, but there are 27 squares.

On the bottom half of the chart there are 27 squares with the Z1 gear [24 tooth] is on top. 48 TPI shows up 6 different times, but there are 27 squares.

The 20 TPI [Rem700] only shows up on the bottom chart.
The 12 TPI [M98 Mauser] only shows up on the top chart.

To change from 20 TPI to 12 TPI, one would have to take the cover off the left side of the lathe by removing the two knurled knobs, loosen the 127 tooth gear hub with a 17mm wrench for front back movement, loosen the nut on the banjo behind the 127 tooth gear with a 17mm wrench for up down movement, remove the 24 tooth gear on top with a 5mm Allen wrench, remove the 48 tooth gear with a 5mm Allen wrench, and swap the gears. Then pull up and forward on the 127 tooth gear with the left hand [so all 3 gears engage nicely] while tightening the 17mm nut on the banjo and then the 17mm nut on the 127 tooth hub.

Then, while pushing the motor jog button, a knob is turned from MK2 position to MK1 position.
Then, while pushing the motor jog button,a knob is turned from A position to C position.
Then, while pushing the motor jog button, a knob is turned from 4 position to 3 position.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
<span style="color: #FF0000">OK, maybe that is not always 5 minutes.</span></span>
If you never did it before, it might take an hour.
Some ace could do it in 20 seconds.
He would still get his left hand dirty when pulling up and forward on the 127 tooth gear covered in grease.

kombayotch just bought a PM1236. I would guess he already knows more about them than I learned in a year of owning one.

But the guy who knows the most is the guy who sold me the PM1236

Matt Nadeja
Quality Machine Tools, LLC
701 Parkway View Dr.
BLDG #7
Pittsburgh, PA 15205
Ph# 412-787-2876
quality machine tools
Email [email protected]

His company sells and services lathes. They installed the DRO on my lathe.
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

With the downsizing of the economy, there are machine shops closing every day. Online you can find lists of auctions, where you can buy for much less than what most used machinery dealers will charge.

Also ebay has some good deals. I really like the Clausing Colchester. Very user friendly to use, high quality, fairly high precision. The Hardinge, recommended above, is a great machine. However they do not have the HP or the beef to take anything but fairly light cuts. I would probably not choose a Hardinge for a welding shop, however they are my favorite to run.

There have been some super deals on ebay for some Clausing Colchesters. One was a fairly large model, was nearly new, and went for 30% of what it cost. Would have been super for a welding shop, but too big for gunsmithing. If you had the room, you could buy two lathes, and have your bases covered.
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

Matt is hooking me up with a really nice ERL-1340 lathe and a PM9x49V mill. This lathe is built to order one at a time in Taiwan. He promised me I won't ever regret the expense or wait required to get this baby. It is a gear drive and is supposed to be as smooth as it gets. American Rotary is sending out a 15 horse digital rotary phase converter capable of running them at the same time. With everything needed that was only $1500. With a late December deliver estimate we are hoping to be up and running mid January.
 
Re: Lathe and mill suggestions

I have the 13x40 Birmingham same as Jet.. 1 7/16 through hole and the head is short enough that you can chamber barrels down to about 20" long through. the headstock..That is a big plus.
 
I went through this a couple of years ago. I decided to go "medium" and got a G4003G lathe and a G0730 knee mill. For me and my shop and my requirements they are just about prefect. Don't forget buying the machine tools is only 1/2 the cost, the other half is the tooling for the machine tool. There are so many things one can do more easily with a knee mill that becomes harder with a quill-only depth mill.
 
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I will add that a knee mill is the only way to go .
I started with a grizzly (column ) mill and found a used bridgeport (85 years used) .
It was leaps ahead of a column mill .
...edited cuz im dyslexic...
 
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No first hand knowledge, but I've read decent reviews on those branded by Eisen Machinery:


Taiwan (not China) made- but not sure to what extent. They have some high precision toolroom/CNC machines as well- I'd give them a look if I were in the market; perhaps someone here knows more about them.
 
No first hand knowledge, but I've read decent reviews on those branded by Eisen Machinery:


Taiwan (not China) made- but not sure to what extent. They have some high precision toolroom/CNC machines as well- I'd give them a look if I were in the market; perhaps someone here knows more about them.

I have this in a Precision Matthews badge. They are produced by Liang Dei. Spindle is kind of long, but not a deal breaker. I've had it since February, I must have chambered close to three dozen barrels through it. Mostly my barrel work is in support of the TX Jrs high power team. I am not in the business, just a hobbyist. In addition to this 1440eV, I have a Taiwan made 1236, and a Taiwan made Jet 1024, both have been upgraded to VFD.

1440ev – Eisen Machinery Inc

My take, you can't go wrong with the Taiwan made machines. The only complain about the 1440eV, the satin finished dials are not as pretty as the ones in 1990s Taiwan lathes.

Mill is a 2HP variable speed BP. I have an old DRO on it. It is something of a must in a mill, not so much on a lathe. I have TravaDials on the other lathes, can't beat them threading to a shoulder. Drawback, these TravaDials are more expensive than the ChiCom DROs.
 
The reason for getting a used gunsmithing size American mill is that industry is surplussing so many of them.
The reason for not getting a used gunsmithing size American lathe is industry is surplussing so few of them.

If I spent $4k 11 years ago on a lathe and rebarreled 40 rifles, that is $100/rifle. I take a $400 rifle + $100 lathe cost, add $2k in parts and create a $600 rifle. That is not a biz model. That is a hobby.
 
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