LE Sniper Training Standards

[Andrew Blubaugh]

This happened last night and is part of my motivation for this post.

The topic of LE sniper engagement distance and "average" distance a LE sniper shot has been going on for years and I believe it will continue to go on for years to come. I have been a ASA member and own all of the surveys. ASA provides a great piece of reference material but too often the survey is looked at as the end all be all book of answers.

I think another valuable survey would be to detail how LE snipers deploy. The data that I think would be the most useful is at what distances to LE Snipers set up in a hide site/final firing position. Rather than just focus on where LE Snipers have taken shots from we can look at the distances LE snipers may have taken shots from. I believe this data would not change the "average" a whole lot but it would accurately show the extreme distances LE Snipers face and dispel the myth that we (LE Snipers) only need to train for 100 yards and less.

Just to add to the validity of this idea, last night I responded to a call out where one of my team mates was shot at. Once on scene I deployed in the capacity of a sniper. I found several potential hide sites ranging from 75 yards to 210 yards. I ended up in the 210 yard site because it afforded distance from the threat, concealment, higher ground (suspect was in a second story window) and the best unobstructed view of the target house. In the end he gave up and we all walked away but the potential was for a 210 yard engagement.

Link to news article with pictures...

http://medinagazette.northcoastnow.com/2011/03/23/medina-county-man-fires-at-sheriffs-deputies/

 

[Tactical]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

And this is just another reason stats dont mean much when shit happens. 210 yards but no shot so no stat, but a gret success.

Thankfully you where there in case the bad guy went deeper over the edge.

 

[Lindy]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

And thankfully none of the L.E. officers got shot. It's already been a bad year for that.

 

[jedi8541]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

Glad to hear that it didnt go like this.

http://www.ajc.com/news/reward-at-50-000-881905.html

 

[kraigWY]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And this is just another reason stats dont mean much when shit happens. 210 yards but no shot so no stat,</div></div>

Well said, that makes a hell of a lot of sinse when you think about it.

 

[fargo007]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

I couldn't agree with you more (OP). There is a myth that has climbed into the front seat, and is now driving the doctrine bus. I would submit by getting "out of the box" and finding a far better spot at 210, you accomplished these things:

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Supposing the BG has the playbook too... He's not going to be looking for you out there. [*]The likelihood he can engage you with accurate fire is greatly reduced.[*]The view of the entire scene you had was likely far superior. [/list]

One of the best ways to reveal a lack of analytical skill is to lean on a broken shibboleth like "we've always done it this way."

We have a LOT of LE shooters come out with a primary goal to gather longer distance dope for the same reasons. They don't want to be forced into operating in a box that somebody else built, and it appears others, like you are thankfully starting to question the wisdom of intentionally moving people well into the accurate fire distance of something like an SKS, or even a compound bow.

I say good thinking bro. It's high time for a fresh look at this.

--Fargo007

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think another valuable survey would be to detail how LE snipers deploy. The data that I think would be the most useful is at what distances to LE Snipers set up in a hide site/final firing position. Rather than just focus on where LE Snipers have taken shots from we can look at the distances LE snipers may have taken shots from.</div></div>

I agree.

We deploy quite often. Often the badguy decides to give up. However that doesn't change the fact that if I had to pull the trigger the field was already set.

To that end a month or so ago I proposed to our tactical commander that anytime Snipers setup on a live call we need to document the details. This will better allow us to focus our training for what is occurring in our neck of the woods, not just from sea to shining sea.

The added benefit is that documenting callouts instead of shots will generate an enormous amount of data.

Remember, just because an LE Sniper didn't take a shot doesn't mean he didn't have a hand in the outcome. Suspecting that we are out there can often affect a suspect's behavior.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think another valuable survey would be to detail how LE snipers deploy. The data that I think would be the most useful is at what distances to LE Snipers set up in a hide site/final firing position. Rather than just focus on where LE Snipers have taken shots from we can look at the distances LE snipers may have taken shots from.</div></div>I agree. </div></div>Me too, perhaps with some distance data to FFP and percentages of open-air options as well.

 

[Insayn]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

We have created a form for our own record keeping on our deployments. It has things like position, distance, elevation, location (inside/outside) and has a section for a range card drawing or photos as well as weather conditions. Most of us will snap photos with camera phones after the ordeal is over. We will also list items used for support, whether it be a tripod, screw hook, 550 cord etc. We then utilize the information for training. We find we are more likely to be in the kneeling position so we train kneeling off a tripod.

 

[Triad]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

In my 9 years as an LE sniper, my unit took five shots. The average distance of those five is 169.6 yards.

ASA has made great inroads into spreading info within the LE community.

No shot, no stat. Interesting point coyboy...

 

[Whiskey 2-1]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

Glad all your fellow officers came out unharmed. As always, you bring up good points. This is a good example of ONE problem with statistics. They are plagued by something called selection bias. Not every incident makes the stats, only those that are reported for some reason. They are also valid only in the population in which they were collected. Not every conclusion can be translated and applied to other areas. For those not aware of how to critically examine studies, this creates a false sense of security. I would hate to think anyone would limit their training and skill set based upon data that does not reflect their operational environment. If you feel most of your shots will be within 100 (based on the national average), but admit the possibility of a shot twice or three times that far (based on YOUR AO), you should train for the critical, but uncommon, scenario. The things you do very infrequently, but may be called to do under stress, are the things you must be very diligent about training for.

 

[mgd45]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

Great post with great observations! I recently graduated from our State's Police Counter Sniper Level 2 course. During this course it was preached about the average shot being under 100 yards....yada...yada....yada...

So on the stalking portion of the class, we had to get into a position to read a set of numbers attached to our instructors ball cap. Well, the numbers were maybe printed in 1/2 inch height & were almost impossible to read unless you were around 100 yards or less.

I got into a great position on one stalk at around 150 yards & could clearly see the instructor & describe his face, clothing etc... in every single detail if asked.....I just couldn't read the damn 3-digit number! I refused to move any closer, but was told that I had to.....so my partner & I did.....& got BUSTED!

I was pissed & told the instructor that I never once needed to be close enough to read a 1/2 inch set of numbers on a suspect & that I was giving up my ballistic advantage by trying to get closer when it wasn't needed, & risking getting compromised, which we wound up doing!! He told me that in LE sniper situations, "Rarely would you ever be that far out, so you need to get closer..."

He was a tool & I basically discounted everything he ever said in the class that week.....

 

[brianksain]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

Guys that think inside the box ... any box ... are setting themselves up for failure.

There is no friggin' box.

LE problems ALMOST ENTIRELY stem from the shortage of money ... and the abundance of ego.

Solely imo of course.

 

[sinister]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

Nice to see you back, brother.

 

[Lefty06]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

Glad to hear all turned out good. I couldn't agree more my partner focuses on 100 yards and in I try to shoot 100 and out. When we went to our basic school we spent a lot of time at the 100 yard line but we had a lot of opportunity to shoot 200 yards and out.

 

[Graham]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brian K. Sain</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LE problems ALMOST ENTIRELY stem from the shortage of money ... and the abundance of ego. solely imo of course. </div></div>I'll second that. But I've seen very rich departments with very poor training standards. So I'm leaning toward ego and a technocratic mindset as the main reason for a general lack of standards.

 

[Zulu Two]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

Just to clarify the discussion, perhaps you should read the whole survey report. Although it shows the average distance of police sniper shootings to be 56 yards, it emphasizes that this is just an average. It clearly explains that sniper shootings have taken place over a large range of distances, from 5 to 514 yards. And because of this, the survey narrative points out the need to train for the possible range of target engagements. Nowhere does it say you should only train for 100 yards and less. That is a myth without foundation.

Those who would criticize the usefulness of statistics, remember the survey deliberately focuses on sniper shootings, something tangible we can document and verify. The findings were meant to give readers a historical perspective on what snipers have done, when, where and how. This knowledge gives snipers a realostic basis for future training and tactics.

Second, a survey of deployment distances would be impractical, incomplete and unreliable. No one keeps historical records of every deployment distance. Therefore, we can't go back to the hundreds of agencies reflected in the current database and expect them to be able to report with any degree of accuracy where their four snipers were deployed on a callout 6 months ago, or even last week. Permanent records are only generated when a use of force has occurred.

 

[kytrapper]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

Most importantly ..Glad everyone came out good to go !!!!!

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zulu Two</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to clarify the discussion, perhaps you should read the whole survey report. Although it shows the average distance of police sniper shootings to be 56 yards, it emphasizes that this is just an average. It clearly explains that sniper shootings have taken place over a large range of distances, from 5 to 514 yards. And because of this, the survey narrative points out the need to train for the possible range of target engagements. Nowhere does it say you should only train for 100 yards and less. That is a myth without foundation.

Those who would criticize the usefulness of statistics, remember the survey deliberately focuses on sniper shootings, something tangible we can document and verify. The findings were meant to give readers a historical perspective on what snipers have done, when, where and how. This knowledge gives snipers a realostic basis for future training and tactics.

Second, a survey of deployment distances would be impractical, incomplete and unreliable. No one keeps historical records of every deployment distance. Therefore, we can't go back to the hundreds of agencies reflected in the current database and expect them to be able to report with any degree of accuracy where their four snipers were deployed on a callout 6 months ago, or even last week. Permanent records are only generated when a use of force has occurred.

</div></div>

Zulu Two,

Maybe you should have read the entire post. No one is saying to discount the ASA survey and most of us understand the meaning of an average. Since you just started on the site March 26, 2011 you may not be familiar with the long history of threads covering the topic. It is far too common for people to criticize LE equipment, training, tactics, etc. solely because of the magic numbers falling under 100 yards.

You are way off base to accuse anyone here of criticizing the ASA survey. All I am saying, it sounds like several others are backing me up on it, is that another useful set of numbers would be where LE snipers are deploying.

Lastly, you are so wrong to assume agencies don't keep records of where they deploy. Just from this post I have spoken to two large agencies with full time teams that document their deployment distance and potential shooting position. They do this specifically to make their training line up with actual practices in the field. So yes, it would be very easy to collect this data because people are already doing it. This data would only support what the ASA has already done and hopefully open the eyes of those who believe everything is done at 100 yards or less and from the prone. The ASA has been providing the LE community with valuable information but if we fail to improve on the original idea we (LE) can fall short.

 

[Zulu Two]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

I did read the whole post, and that is why I felt it necessary to enter into the discussion. I have followed this forum site for years, so I am familiar with the range of topics and the opinions shared here.

That said, I still believe some read too much into the average distance, and take it as a mandate to limit their training and deployments.

Lastly, even though you found a couple of agencies that keep records of their deployment distances, this is the exception rather than the rule. Most agencies don't routinely keep this information, especially in a centrally located and accessible location. There wouldn't be a single point of contact for us to get that kind of information. Trust me, we had enough difficulty tracking down some of the sources we needed for shootings. Plus, since most of this type of information is kept by the individual sniper, once they move on, their records often go with them.

If you think this is a needed and doable project, and you have three years of your time to invest, I would never turn down a volunteer. We'll provide you with the DOJ database as a starting point for your research.

I appreciate your kind remarks about ASA. Believe me, we are never standing pat on what we know or have found.

 

[NOMAD]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

I think the bigger issue in this all is the fact that the avg distance is 56 yards is the fact that so many LE snipers in the beginning were not confident, didnt have extended training and didnt have the best equipment.

Add to it the on scene commanders didnt understand the capabilities of their shooters or confidence in these shooters, which forced the majority of shots of these snipers to be set under the 100 yard mark.

I think this data has become a crutch and a limiting factor in which higher ups have strapped LE shooters because they are afraid to break from the norm.

The fact that training gear and equipment has advanced drastically in the last 10 years and the fact that LE Snipers have changed their training methods and have now learned to shoot further and give their snipers the confidence and ability to shoot further with more accuracy is here to stay.

I agree Andrew things must change and the on scened commanders need to realize that these limnitations need to be removed in order for Officer survival and mission success.

The sad part of this is most LE snieprs know that they will not be given a green light at extended ranges and when they employ they automatically know this and choose positions in the range that they know the boss is going to authorize them to shoot from if things go bad.

Lack of education of on scene commanders of your shooters ability, liability, and deviation from the average shot distance of what this survey shows opens up a huge trick bag.

My opinion is that as detailed and educational that this survey may be and what it shows, has also become a crutch in advancing sound tactics and Officer safety as well as providing lawyers a way to make money off the guys putting there balls on the line to police the dirtbags out there slapping us with wrongful death suits if things do go as planned.

 

[brianksain]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

Too many cops and (far more commonly) their bosses, don't know what they don't know.

Anyone who reads that survey and discerns that they should only train at one distance ... is a booger eater.

My guys were always doped out as far as we could shoot.

Does it build confidence? Sure. Add some capability? Sure.

The problem lies with the cost of ammo (money), training time granted and what you spend that time on (money) and the cost and hiring of overtime to cover a SWAT guy while he is away "playing SWAT" (money).

Couple that with a CO that probably came from entry and places more weight on entry training (even for the snipers) than anything else ... and you get snipers that don't get to train and therefore ... don't know their rifles/dope.

The info would be great to have but would be near impossible to gather.

Firstly you would have to identify and locate every agency that kept such data. Then you have to call them. Then you have to explain who you are and why you want it and promise you won't mis-use it. Then you have to get them to call you back or convince them to give the information up (after they ask permission from whoever) ...

This for EVERY SINGLE AGENCY you call ... make sense kinda sorta?

The survey was labor intensive and took years to compile.

Extracting the data from cold phone calls to agencies that have never even heard of ASA (or Snipershide) was ... painful.

Zulu Two whoever he is, is correct ... in that MOST agencies do not keep that data.

OK SO WE NEED A VOLUNTEER - to cold call every agency in the US with a sniper unit or a SWAT team, get to the guys that actually have the info, get them to call you back, document and compile it all, publish it ... and then revive this thread with the feedback 3 years from now ... LOL

I AM JOKING ANDREW ... - Great to see you at SHOT brother. Wish I could shoot like you ...

Sir Sinister I am happily back in the game.

Assigned to training

Wish I could shoot like you too.

Back to my hole. bk

 

[FUBAR]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brian K. Sain</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... and the abundance of ego.</div></div>

So true brother!

 

[Tactical]

Re: LE Sniper Training Standards

Zulu, my comments where not a slam against ASA. They where simply put to say stats can not tell whole truth, as said no use of force no stat.

It all piggybacks on another thread where some one was attacking LE's abilities because of these stats.

I appreciate what ASA does.