Amateur, mine have magpul BAD levers...But my AR's have all the "don't's", and horrible things that will clearly get you killed, like completely unstaked gas keys, unstaked castle nuts and barrel nuts that are only hand tight.
Least expensive AR you’d trust your life to?
- Thread starter 300zx_tt
- Start date
But ma operating operators don't use psa...
My thought. It's a fucking roll mark. Yes. Some have innovative proprietary parts. But also some have proprietary parts..
(Edit) that can be good and bad. Quality control is most important
Given the choice. Yes I'll take a KAC. But I've no doubt a vetted poverty pony would stack bodies too.
99% of the people that are buying ARs are never going to defend themselves with it. .1 are cops and 90% of them will never use it. .9 of them that defend their life stateside will most likely use a pistol.
People that carry a long gun for a living are getting them issued. And those are mid tier at best. Unless your any flavor of special. Then you have some options.
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Interessen. Any more details? Frankly the SD rifles don’t really innovate at all. Just a lot of well done off the shelf style parts.
It’s having honest conversations like this that grow our knowledge.
From ones I've bought. Just looking at the geissele lpk vs a aero, psa and s&w. The geissele is much more refined. They make pretty parts. And they are super and duty and much precision.
In my experience, handguns even more so. I've watched people I know struggle to finish simple stages in IDPA-style matches with pistols they've been shooting for 25 years and had thousands of trouble free round through.
my stock $800 sig M400 has performed flawlessly for many years and eats any ammo i feed it. it would be my go to if I had to grab something. i have flirted with gettting more expensive like a DD, LWRC, JP but then think why.
i like that the envelope of what is a "good" rifle has substantially increased since my first one nearly 20 years ago. at least on the "budget" side of things
a psa ChF CL barrel with an LMT bcg on a poverty pony lower with good parts kits (including buffer tube assembly) isn't an expensive rifle.
vet it with some common sense and popped primers and rock on.
taken plenty of heartbeats with the above combo, and 5 figures worth of empties have went out the gas port. quite a bit was steel case during the last regime when it was 20cents from sgammo.
10-40wt oil occasionally on the bcg.
it ain't my LMT but that effer runs..
a psa ChF CL barrel with an LMT bcg on a poverty pony lower with good parts kits (including buffer tube assembly) isn't an expensive rifle.
vet it with some common sense and popped primers and rock on.
taken plenty of heartbeats with the above combo, and 5 figures worth of empties have went out the gas port. quite a bit was steel case during the last regime when it was 20cents from sgammo.
10-40wt oil occasionally on the bcg.
it ain't my LMT but that effer runs..
Never had an issue with my Colts, LMTs or anything I"ve built. I've had issues with some of the higher end rigs over time but ARs are simple and easy to diagnose/correct
I run the first couple hundred rounds dry as lube can mask issues on new rifles and any artic stationed/duty people will tell you, your rig better be able to operate with little to no lube. dry lube is a thing now lol
I run the first couple hundred rounds dry as lube can mask issues on new rifles and any artic stationed/duty people will tell you, your rig better be able to operate with little to no lube. dry lube is a thing now lol
BCM/COLT is the minimum baseline for a carbine/rifle you can trust your life to. Rest of the shit is untested, parts guns, commercial garbage made with a ton of shortcuts with a focus on profits over quality.
People do not understand the questions and ignorance is bliss. They "think" they have a reliable gun when the truth is they are shooting an untested liability. The only way to prove a rifle line is via sampling and hard testing over time. It becomes apparent what works and what shits the bed.
Guns work until they don't. Unless you are sticking with a known quantity that is proven, you do not know if or when your number is up. Even quality , testing shit breaks and fails. It comes down to probabilities and risk assessments.
When dealing with life saving equipment it has to work. You have to have confidence and testing is the only way this is proven.
Would you jump out of a plane with a parachute built by 5 different companies and bolting the parts together without any real long term testing being done to ensure not only the individual parts will not fail but it will work long term as a system? Hey I bet it will work 8/10 times.
Colt rifles have been tested and proven, BCM rifles have been tested and proven. DD/LMT/KAC,ect same deal.
Most of the garbage like s&w, ruger, aero, Springfield ect.........they are unproven and we have seen some of the shitty quality every one of them puts out be it out spec receivers, barrels missing the rifling, misaligned gas tubes, unstated gas keys, crooked gas blocks, bad threading, LPK's made in china by lowest bidder of pot metal chinesium or not even torquing the barrel nut on.
People do not understand the questions and ignorance is bliss. They "think" they have a reliable gun when the truth is they are shooting an untested liability. The only way to prove a rifle line is via sampling and hard testing over time. It becomes apparent what works and what shits the bed.
Guns work until they don't. Unless you are sticking with a known quantity that is proven, you do not know if or when your number is up. Even quality , testing shit breaks and fails. It comes down to probabilities and risk assessments.
When dealing with life saving equipment it has to work. You have to have confidence and testing is the only way this is proven.
Would you jump out of a plane with a parachute built by 5 different companies and bolting the parts together without any real long term testing being done to ensure not only the individual parts will not fail but it will work long term as a system? Hey I bet it will work 8/10 times.
Colt rifles have been tested and proven, BCM rifles have been tested and proven. DD/LMT/KAC,ect same deal.
Most of the garbage like s&w, ruger, aero, Springfield ect.........they are unproven and we have seen some of the shitty quality every one of them puts out be it out spec receivers, barrels missing the rifling, misaligned gas tubes, unstated gas keys, crooked gas blocks, bad threading, LPK's made in china by lowest bidder of pot metal chinesium or not even torquing the barrel nut on.
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I will say that I typically only used Colt and DD LPK (no more DD for me ever now) but recently tried the Geiselle LPK and it was very nice. I've used Aero and Anderson ss trigger LPK and both were fine and those rifles have thousands through them. LPK are throw away items, if a part isn't right, toss it and grab another. I was impressed with the Geiselle like I said and not too expensive.
Theres youtubers with PSA uppers on full auto lowers beating the shit out of them but some random guy shooting a few rounds semiauto off a bench definitely needs a Colt at least.
JP patrol is pretty hard to beat
www.rainierarms.com
JP Enterprises JP-15 .223 Wylde Patrol Rifle - 16\\\
FFL Required Before Shipping.Please have your dealer email a copy of their FFL to [email protected] or fax it to 253-218-2998, referencing your name and order number.
www.rainierarms.com
I've got an AR from PSA. Their blems are awesome!
Also built a version of the WWSD rifle
Both go bang reliably. The WWSD build is lighter, but I'm not sure if it's the $1k better than the PSA M4 clone.
I have more fun finding and building widgets (bicycles, reef aquaria, rifles, etc) than I do actually owning said widget
M
there's plenty of hyperbole that comes out in these threads
"trash"
"garbage"
"overpriced"
etc etc
truth is, an sr-15 isn't a rifle isn't always the best. ur gonna be sad when it flips off a skiff in the arctic when you hit a dead head.. and that svelte gas system might let ya down when wolf steel case is in the mag on the snow machine when it's 15 below
and a PSa upper with a good parts kit, bolt and some vetting probably isn't the best.. but in the contex of real world usage and human history it's a damn dependable weapon that will serve you well.
and if your buddies kid loses it when they roll the skiff, you give him some shit, order up and another upper/lower and keep rockin on. it's happened.
"trash"
"garbage"
"overpriced"
etc etc
truth is, an sr-15 isn't a rifle isn't always the best. ur gonna be sad when it flips off a skiff in the arctic when you hit a dead head.. and that svelte gas system might let ya down when wolf steel case is in the mag on the snow machine when it's 15 below
and a PSa upper with a good parts kit, bolt and some vetting probably isn't the best.. but in the contex of real world usage and human history it's a damn dependable weapon that will serve you well.
and if your buddies kid loses it when they roll the skiff, you give him some shit, order up and another upper/lower and keep rockin on. it's happened.
Ignorance is bliss. Most here do not even have a basic understanding of the AR15 operating system to be able to have an educated opinion on the subject, much less enough they should be giving advice.
You are a great example. ANY properly built AR is going to have issues cyclying wolf or similar underpowered ammo in the extreme cold. Its called physics and if your gun is running that it means its massively overgassed and beating the subpar lowest bidder parts to shit, accelerating wear and MRBTF. The fact you do not know this means you should not be telling anyone anything about this platform, except maybe your favorite color.
Complete ignorant non qualified statements by people who do not know what they are talking about. Unless you have proven a gun model, in a statistical sample size and volume of testing to be significant, you are talking out of your ass.
Again, Ignorance is bliss.
before bowing out.
if you lived in a place that regularly sees 25 below and ammo availability is spotty what rifle are you running??
personal experience is fine.. i'll listen.
i'll use an apt analogy.
it wasn't ZT or a bark river or a winkler electrical taped upside down to my grundens suspenders while running a boat in the gulf of alaska.
nor was i wearing my arcteryx jacket.
the shotgun analogy above is perfect. on the hunting boat on kodiak i saw it a bunch of that duck hunting. junky 870 boat gun always ran. seen a plethora of italian guns not. guess what one clients ended up using??
if you lived in a place that regularly sees 25 below and ammo availability is spotty what rifle are you running??
personal experience is fine.. i'll listen.
i'll use an apt analogy.
it wasn't ZT or a bark river or a winkler electrical taped upside down to my grundens suspenders while running a boat in the gulf of alaska.
nor was i wearing my arcteryx jacket.
the shotgun analogy above is perfect. on the hunting boat on kodiak i saw it a bunch of that duck hunting. junky 870 boat gun always ran. seen a plethora of italian guns not. guess what one clients ended up using??
1. Depends if you want to talk about the official TDP or guns that were designed, revised, tested and proven by themselves
. BCM was not a TDP gun but was the first non TDP to be equal to or exceed them on commercial market. Colt was the only one who could sells TDP guns on commercial market, even the bushmaster and FN guns were only allowed to use them for Gov/Mil sales per the contract with the USG. Mil spec means something but its not all end all be all in context.
Sorry i made some typos cranking this out on my phone.
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Most people living in an area that sees that kind of weather is not carrying a service or battle rifle. If you had to, the Finish Valmet is probably the most proven cold weather service rifle out there, and would be my first choice. Next would be something by HK, just because HK has testing facilities all over the world including in the arctic, jungle and deserts to ensure their products work in all environments. Canadian rangers use a tikka 308 bolt gun FYI. Canadian armed forces use a DI AR, The swedes use the FNC/G3/H417 and the Norwegians use both the 416 and DI AR.
The AR is one of the better cold weather proven service rifles out there all things being equal.
What you are talking about probably represents less than .01% of shooters.
Here is a cold weather thread I started in regards to my S&W MP15 I carried in my truck 24/7. This was an issue at -12 but we’ll see stretches where it’s -20 to -25 below at night in the winter
-25 is -25 weather it’s all day or for just a few hours of it I suppose
In my case lubing the weapon more often or with better lube would have helped
www.snipershide.com
-25 is -25 weather it’s all day or for just a few hours of it I suppose
In my case lubing the weapon more often or with better lube would have helped
Best cold weather rifle platform?? What is it?
What’s the best cold weather platform? AK47 AK74 A couple that come to mind Had -12°f this morning. Decided to try charging my “truck gun” which is just a simple MP15 Sport II. The BCG ran like turtles racing through molasses. Lubed with Slip 2000 about a month ago and sitting since then...
www.snipershide.com
Avoid cheap shit. Just like cheap optics, corners are cut on cheap guns to meet a price point.
I’d have your friend call Clyde Armory in Athens, Ga. He’d have to call because they aren’t listed on the website but they have a rack full of restricted marked 6920 police trade in’s that have hardly had any use for $999. Buy one and have it shipped to an ffl. It may have a few scuffs, it’ll be a basic carbine, but at least it was built to meet a performance and reliability standard with specified materials. If he doesn’t like it, he can easily get his money back.
I’d have your friend call Clyde Armory in Athens, Ga. He’d have to call because they aren’t listed on the website but they have a rack full of restricted marked 6920 police trade in’s that have hardly had any use for $999. Buy one and have it shipped to an ffl. It may have a few scuffs, it’ll be a basic carbine, but at least it was built to meet a performance and reliability standard with specified materials. If he doesn’t like it, he can easily get his money back.
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Statistics and mean round count between failure metrics don’t mean dick when it’s your gun that takes a dump. Even the Gucci labels turn out a bad one. The roll mark is just the starting point and the price tag is just the cost of admission. Confidence in a brand based on reputation is less important than confidence based on bullets down range. Whether it’s. KAC, or a PSA blem, or a total home brew, take it out and shoot it, a lot.
And, “good enough” is- by definition- good enough.
And, “good enough” is- by definition- good enough.
I'm partial to the "Frankengun". Why ? Because If I'm going to get killed in a fire fight due to a weapon malfunction, it will be my fault. Why would I put my life in the hands of some pot head assembler ? Or some CNC idiot in China ? One piece at a time is my motto. The buck stops here.
Now, if you are a guy who does not trust his mechanical ability.... What will you do when you have a malfunction the day after the SHTF and you can't send it back to the factory, even though it's got a warranty ? How many spare parts / gunsmith tools do you have in your tool box or go bag ? How about a small tube of lube?
JMHO
Now, if you are a guy who does not trust his mechanical ability.... What will you do when you have a malfunction the day after the SHTF and you can't send it back to the factory, even though it's got a warranty ? How many spare parts / gunsmith tools do you have in your tool box or go bag ? How about a small tube of lube?
JMHO
This is the kind of ignorant, non logical statements that people say to justify their cheap shit.
Well lets throw statistics out the window because anything can fail. We can play that game with any product and its equally retarded to try and do so.
WE got two problems OP.
First of all "Battle RIfle" and "Assault Rifle" are two different things. Battle Rifle = 308 Caliber or similar 1000 Yard shots. Assualt Rifle= Medium Caliber, 300 yard shots.
You don't want a battle rifle. They are expensive and heavy and gain you nothing but points for a small penis. But if you insist on one, get a Garand because is Gansta AF.
ARs are overblown and saturated. I have a Ruger that I got for like $500 during a "F Beto Sale". Slapped a CMC trigger on it, a sight I won and it runs like a combat weapon. Eats anything. hits the target. Will it punch 1 MOA holes? nope. Its an assualt rifle (albeit semi-auto), small, light, compact. If you are within 300 yards, you're gonna get hit. Paper, Steel, Troublemaker.
Buy a cheap AR and a ton of ammo. If something breaks, fix it. You spend less time arguing on the internet, more time shooting, and gain the skills to know your rifle. Is it the same as a JP? Nope. But what are you trying to do? Win a precision match? Win a fight? Look cool?
If you want a good rifle, shoot it.
Shoot it a lot. If its crappy, you'll know and fix what's broken.
Then its a good rifle.
You'll also learn how it works and what's important.
"Captain Bushmaster" out. (Maybe I should promote myself to Commodore Rear General after the 4th Barrel).
Edit: Paul Howe got run off (or more likely said "F this") M4carbine because he ran DPMS rifles as spares for students.
First of all "Battle RIfle" and "Assault Rifle" are two different things. Battle Rifle = 308 Caliber or similar 1000 Yard shots. Assualt Rifle= Medium Caliber, 300 yard shots.
You don't want a battle rifle. They are expensive and heavy and gain you nothing but points for a small penis. But if you insist on one, get a Garand because is Gansta AF.
ARs are overblown and saturated. I have a Ruger that I got for like $500 during a "F Beto Sale". Slapped a CMC trigger on it, a sight I won and it runs like a combat weapon. Eats anything. hits the target. Will it punch 1 MOA holes? nope. Its an assualt rifle (albeit semi-auto), small, light, compact. If you are within 300 yards, you're gonna get hit. Paper, Steel, Troublemaker.
Buy a cheap AR and a ton of ammo. If something breaks, fix it. You spend less time arguing on the internet, more time shooting, and gain the skills to know your rifle. Is it the same as a JP? Nope. But what are you trying to do? Win a precision match? Win a fight? Look cool?
If you want a good rifle, shoot it.
Shoot it a lot. If its crappy, you'll know and fix what's broken.
Then its a good rifle.
You'll also learn how it works and what's important.
"Captain Bushmaster" out. (Maybe I should promote myself to Commodore Rear General after the 4th Barrel).
Edit: Paul Howe got run off (or more likely said "F this") M4carbine because he ran DPMS rifles as spares for students.
I'm still waiting to hear the details all about how the Geissele Super Duty rifles "Shit The Bed"... For the time being I'm calling Bullshit!
Again, people approach these questions from the wrong angle.
You are conflating different things. Malfunctions are handled using immediate action drills instilled by training hopefully to the level of muscle memory. Doesn't matter if its a PSA or HK, The same "software" is used to address the malfunction.
An AR is not one part. Its a system of about 97+ separate parts that all have to work together for a functional weapon. You can take a bunch of parts all from top tier manufactures, smash them together and still have issues. Would you take a container of chevy, ford, chyrsler, jeep, mercedes , bmw and toyota parts and expect them all to fit together to make a functional and reliable car? Its the same principle. While the AR is a modular engineering marvel, its not a lego set. Especially if you are using them as a life saving or taking tool.
Serious answer if you want to spend the absolute minimum on an AR is find an inexpensive brand at a gun store you can physically inspect. Check for any major glaring flaws (gas key staking, gas key strike, misaligned parts, poor upper/lower fitment) if you find none of those, get it, put a better bolt and extractor in it, check headspace and then run about 1000 rounds through it training looking for any issues.
Paying extra $$$ for an AR these days is usually paying for the warranty behind it, or because it has some special feature you might particularly like (LMT lowers come to mind)
A rifle that has been detail inspected and checked with a discerning eye and passed is always going to be 100% better than one that has not.
Paying extra $$$ for an AR these days is usually paying for the warranty behind it, or because it has some special feature you might particularly like (LMT lowers come to mind)
A rifle that has been detail inspected and checked with a discerning eye and passed is always going to be 100% better than one that has not.
You arent going to gleen much useful information , even if you know what you are looking for by trying to inspect a gun in the store with the MK1 mod 1 eyeball. Most things are subtle or unable to be seen like being slightly undersized/oversized/metallurgical. I spent half my life plumbing guns as a profession, mostly M4/M16s. Certial tools and measurements can be used but its not like they are going to let you dissademble the gun in the store to check gas journey fitment or tube alignment. You must be some sort of wizzard with Xray vision and able to measure with the eyeball down to .001. There are dozens and dozens of potential issues you would have to look for and its more cost and time effective to just buy something correct from the beginning.
Again, people should stop talking about things they don't know. Buying a quality AR is not about buying a warranty. Its about buying a Gun that uses the correct raw materials, is finished correctly, assembled correctly and the sum of the parts results in a reliable system you can trust your life to, proven by lots and lots and lots and lots of testing.
There are only 3 possible failure points in a "milspec" AR platform.
(1) Gas Block/Tube
(2) Barrel/Chamber
(3) BCG.
Yeah we've all heard about bent charging handles and cracked receivers but unless you have a catastrophic failure everything else is just normal wear and tear or extreme one-off circumstances, you are going to get more failures from the ammo you shoot than your firearm.
If the firearm you are purchasing or building has quality components specifically the three mentioned above and was assembled correctly you will hardly get any failures as long as you clean your rifle and shoot quality ammo.
I agree you won't find every single issue, but it's easy to spot the major ones that will result in something being unreliable garbage with a couple of quarters, a penny, and a little looking, provided you know what to look for in the first place. It's not rocket surgery to check for gross misalignments or assembly failures.
Its also worth noting that even the priciest brands will sometimes turn out a Lemon, which is why I prefer being able to give something a once-over before I buy it.
Buy whatever and then prove it reliable.
I have a bastardized rra lower, dpms upper that I've put about 10000 rounds through. Lots of 3 gun and practice. I ran it an entire 2 years without cleaning to win a bet with a buddy. It just keeps running. Yeah, it's probably over gassed and not particularly accurate, but it has always worked.
I have a few home built whatever was cheap ARs for plinking at prairie dogs. They have a few rounds through them with no issues, but not enough I'd really trust them nor do they have the correct optics for that purpose.
I know of many people with an unopened 1000 round case of ammo, 1-3 mags, and a BCM/Colt, etc. They will be far worse off than my crap rifle with a backpack full of mags that I know how to hit with. There's an extra toolcraft complete bcg in the backpack if the need arises since that's going to be the main failure point. Gas rings, extractor, gas key, etc.
I have a bastardized rra lower, dpms upper that I've put about 10000 rounds through. Lots of 3 gun and practice. I ran it an entire 2 years without cleaning to win a bet with a buddy. It just keeps running. Yeah, it's probably over gassed and not particularly accurate, but it has always worked.
I have a few home built whatever was cheap ARs for plinking at prairie dogs. They have a few rounds through them with no issues, but not enough I'd really trust them nor do they have the correct optics for that purpose.
I know of many people with an unopened 1000 round case of ammo, 1-3 mags, and a BCM/Colt, etc. They will be far worse off than my crap rifle with a backpack full of mags that I know how to hit with. There's an extra toolcraft complete bcg in the backpack if the need arises since that's going to be the main failure point. Gas rings, extractor, gas key, etc.
Reliable... That's my #1 requirement. When I pull the trigger I want to hear "Bang".... From that point on it's just fine tuning.
I think the @TheGerman just starts these post's to watch the poors fight.
He's probably sitting back right now with a soft shelled taco... I mean burrito. Amongst his pile of KAC's and HK's laughing and pointing. Looking down at us in quad tubes...
Edit: my apologies. This is not the thread he started. There's too damn many!
He's probably sitting back right now with a soft shelled taco... I mean burrito. Amongst his pile of KAC's and HK's laughing and pointing. Looking down at us in quad tubes...
Edit: my apologies. This is not the thread he started. There's too damn many!
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Which Colt are we talking about? The one that might sell you a rifle or the one that won't sell you a rifle? They got it right, off and on. over the course of almost sixty years of trying.
( I love Colt, but lets face it, that's one roller coaster of a company. Basically in a perpetual state of going out of business since it's inception, unless there happened to be a civil or world war going on.)
My first post on SH was looking for parts to repair a broken $10,000 rifle.
What the rifle costs does not ensure reliability in the overall picture.
But if it means your pecker is just a little bit bigger because you have a $3,000 AR instead of a $500 AR - then by all means, spend away! LOL
Let’s go shooting!
What the rifle costs does not ensure reliability in the overall picture.
But if it means your pecker is just a little bit bigger because you have a $3,000 AR instead of a $500 AR - then by all means, spend away! LOL
Let’s go shooting!
Vickers VCAS/Blue Force Gear sling with the "padded" option..
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Mah Andersun, Hipoint, and I.O. do just fiane. Ya'll are overpaying for the same crap with a different name on it. It's all made in China anyway. Most expensive I'll go is a SKS at 2010 prices. Murica and cheese, and all that.
Peace son!
Peace son!
