Lots of those tests remind me of a meme, dude crashes his car into wall and complains about the car’s performance.
Least expensive AR you’d trust your life to?
- Thread starter 300zx_tt
- Start date
at least there’s one very common thread of agreement in here which should be stamped on some people’s foreheads: “No rifle is guaranteed reliable until it’s had a decent amount of ammo through it without stoppage.” which you can conveniently do while training with said rifle
That is not what I wrote. I wrote that the statistics don't matter if your rifle is not functioning or is unreliable. (Kind of like telling Michael J Fox that, statistically, only about 0.1% of the population has Parkinson's)... This was a statement in support of my follow on statement that it is more important that you insure functionality of the rifle that you are using- regardless of the roll mark.
The guy with the PSA blem that he has competed with it, trained with it, and remediated it if necessary, is miles ahead of the guy that bought a KAC and threw it in the safe unfired.
The AKOU guy put one of the cheapass PSA "Freedom" rifles through his 5000 round test and it passed. Was still shooting ~2MOA afterwards too. That's 4900 rounds more than Fatty McFuddrucker's "Go Bag" rifle will ever see but he still needs to buy a LE marked 6920 Colt because "his life depends on it" lmao.
Since I know many of you have questions and since @bigjake83 feels the need to defend the penis enlargement capabilities of the super duty he has in the safe, I will elaborate as much as I can.
I spent 6 years in SOF and then left the military to go overseas and do the things for a while.
While doing the things, one meets many interesting peoples, including some peoples who are using super duty rifles.
When one sits across the chow hall tables and listens to the bitching of the peoples who are using the super dutys to do the things about how the super dutys don't always do the things without shitting the bed, one is interested.
When one is interested as to how a super fucking expensive rifle bought on a classified contract is having problems where the rifle operates like it hasn't been lubed at all and then was shot for 500 rounds, one pays attention.
When the peoples go back to using their previous rifles because they FUCKING DEMANDED them back from the armory that is a statement. Especially when the previous rifles were heavy as fuck.
Basically what was happening was the rifles were lubed properly (most of these guys had been doing Tier 1 level stuff for at least a decade, so they know how to maintain their stuff, ok?) the rifles were acting like they weren't lubed and extremely fouled. Short stroking, not locking, jamming halfway closed on a round partially fed due to not enough force to close the bolt, etc. All manner of remedies were tried, and believe me, these folks could ask for and get any remedy, but the final remedy was to get rid of the "Super Doody". As far as could be discovered, it seemed that geissele built a super tight clearanced match gun that was so tight that as soon as you shot it a bit and got it around helos in the desert the particulate in the gun caused it to jam.
They are sweet range guns and display guns though, lol, and by now maybe Geissele has fixed their shit and the rifles at least run as well as a 500 dollar PSA blaster.
Oh, and lest anyone think I am bullshitting (@bigjake83 ) let me help you out a bit. Since the contract was classified for the rifles and I can't give you that, maybe this will help:
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Pws.
Rock river.
Stag.
My first ar was a rock river seventeen years ago. I sold it five years ago. Mistake. I probably put 5-6k rounds through that rifle without an issue. Not a lot by most peoples standards here but for the average Joe nobody that shoots in their back yard, it's a fair amount. It was starting to get a burr on the cam pin towards the end of the time I had it but it hadn't caused a problem. I took some emery cloth to it and shined it up and we were off to the races again. I cleaned it and put it together dry once to see how far it would make it. It went about 1,100 rounds then you had to drive the first round in with the forward assist. After that first one it would run a full mag. Lubed it and away it went.
My dad is a lefty and shoots the left handed stag. We used to shoot a lot together, he probably has 2-3k through that rifle. Never done nothing but clean it.
I've since moved on to pws and personally I think they're the best bang for my buck. At the time I think I paid $1,200-$1,300 for my mk116mod1.
I purchased it based on a review I read here on the Hide from a guy that went by Dmack I think ? He had done an extensive write up with 20plus thousand rounds through the gun with no failures due to the gun that I can remember. I'm sold on them and will buy more. The long stroke piston setup is a dream to shoot.
I attended a local carbine course and out of seven guns, eight including the instructor, my pws was the only one that made the full course. Man you should have seen the looks on the faces at the end of that day. I still remember the look on my buddy's face when his "end of the world gun" that he'd pieced together gave up 250 rounds into the day. It was a suppressed 11.5" suppressed sbr with no adjustable gas block. Told him it was going to get him in trouble.
Several people used my rifle to finish the day. I think that was a combo of bad parts and poor maintenance more than anything. The instructors gun was just slap wore out.
I try to shy away from the cheap cheap stuff because like some here have pointed out, some of the parts may look good but it's the quality inside those parts that you can't see.
However, it wasn't that long ago that a shop close to me was selling the base m&p15's for $450. I knew guys that were buying them and raffling them off for three times what they paid for them.
Rock river.
Stag.
My first ar was a rock river seventeen years ago. I sold it five years ago. Mistake. I probably put 5-6k rounds through that rifle without an issue. Not a lot by most peoples standards here but for the average Joe nobody that shoots in their back yard, it's a fair amount. It was starting to get a burr on the cam pin towards the end of the time I had it but it hadn't caused a problem. I took some emery cloth to it and shined it up and we were off to the races again. I cleaned it and put it together dry once to see how far it would make it. It went about 1,100 rounds then you had to drive the first round in with the forward assist. After that first one it would run a full mag. Lubed it and away it went.
My dad is a lefty and shoots the left handed stag. We used to shoot a lot together, he probably has 2-3k through that rifle. Never done nothing but clean it.
I've since moved on to pws and personally I think they're the best bang for my buck. At the time I think I paid $1,200-$1,300 for my mk116mod1.
I purchased it based on a review I read here on the Hide from a guy that went by Dmack I think ? He had done an extensive write up with 20plus thousand rounds through the gun with no failures due to the gun that I can remember. I'm sold on them and will buy more. The long stroke piston setup is a dream to shoot.
I attended a local carbine course and out of seven guns, eight including the instructor, my pws was the only one that made the full course. Man you should have seen the looks on the faces at the end of that day. I still remember the look on my buddy's face when his "end of the world gun" that he'd pieced together gave up 250 rounds into the day. It was a suppressed 11.5" suppressed sbr with no adjustable gas block. Told him it was going to get him in trouble.
Several people used my rifle to finish the day. I think that was a combo of bad parts and poor maintenance more than anything. The instructors gun was just slap wore out.
I try to shy away from the cheap cheap stuff because like some here have pointed out, some of the parts may look good but it's the quality inside those parts that you can't see.
However, it wasn't that long ago that a shop close to me was selling the base m&p15's for $450. I knew guys that were buying them and raffling them off for three times what they paid for them.
I'm not questioning your military service, nor do I really care. But you specifically stated you had "first-hand knowledge" of how the geissele SD "Shit the Bed" when in fact all you're doing is regurgitating some complaints you heard.
What year was this?
Geissele is not a Gucci firearm by any means, it is however a step above BCM and DD.
I only posted that because people seem to think they are end and be all. An untested rig with nothing really great gets' slapped together and all of the sudden it's top shelf. I think it's funny and pathetic to be honest but no, definitely not on the 'I'll suck at Geiselles' dik' like some others. If you gave it to me, I'd sell it.
really? how so
DD shouldn't be mentioned any longer with their anti 2A nonsense but curious why you think Geiselle, an untested rifle with zero history mind you, is suddenly a step above?
Not at MFF but my squadron got me some a year prior to going. Fortunately I am one of those people who legitimately fall dead stable. You could have held a yardstick between me and my instructor and not moved it.
But I do fall like a fucking rock. I have to have my pins out 250 above everyone else to open on the same level with them.
PWS MK114
I just received a sweet little carbine by PWS. I am doing a long term test and evaluation on the PWS MK114. I mounted a TA31F ACOG on it and other than changing out the MILSPEC trigger that it came with to a Geissele SSA, I am running the gun just the way it came to me. I took it out on the...
www.snipershide.com
I lied, there was an extractor breakage early on but here's the review.
you sir are easily the most arrogant guy on this board. For a long time I laugh at how you position your posts as if you're some kind of authority. I got news for you sport, this isn't rocket science and no one gives a shit how you think and especially so since you come off like a real prick with a super small dik and you suffer from an inferiority complex. We get it, laughed at in bed, not the smartest kid in the class, couldn't be the tallest and all the while your parents told you were special.
dude, take your self inflated ego to arfcom, you MAY impress someone there but not here
What is there is what you get. And looking guys in the eye who tell me their SD shit the bed last night is good enough for me. One of them is my best friend.
Very cool!
I jumped with some folks like that, bitch trying to catch them, lots of respect for AFF instructors.
Yeah. My instructor was a small guy and he had sandbags he would clip to his rig when he jumped with me.
Put the SD next to the DD and you immediately see the difference in the quality of their machining work.
I absolutely hate the handguard design of the DD because all four of those screws are exposed and the heads can be easily damaged.
The SD utilizes their version of the intermediate gas system on their 16" and 14.5 similar to what KAC uses.
Obviously the triggers that come in are better than what comes in a standard DD.
The barrels are a wash they're both CHF CL.
The Ambi geissele airborne charging handles are better than anything that comes in a DD....
There's a bunch more just next time you can get the both of them together take a look for yourself.
Strange, my DD MK18 held up to 4 years of CQB, tens of thousands of rounds, airborne ops, and jungle warfare in Africa just fine.
I could even loosen my screws as the heads weren't damaged.
And that rifle saw some hard service. I maintained it but I didn't baby it.
The year, the location, the nature of the purchase contract, and the people involved do not concern you. If you need the year to believe me then have fun on your life journey and I hope your Super Duty works great.
he's talking like a guy who uses fit and finish to describe a weapon. he's already on the 'won't be engaging this cat again'
nuggets like; barrels are a wash because of chf and charging handles comparison......etc.
none of that actually answered the question and he sounds like a kid reading a spec sheet
this board is getting more an more like arfcom
You asked me why "I" thought the geissele was a step above and I answered your questions, don't get fucking butt hurt cuz someone doesn't have the same option you.
If I've learned one thing from this thread. it's that I'm living a terribly boring life these days.
I hardly ever get into sub freezing temperature protracted gun battles in Finland any more.
I hardly ever get into sub freezing temperature protracted gun battles in Finland any more.
We get it dude you're OAF...
But at the end of the day all you have done is just regurgitated shit you've heard, and the fact that you're so defensive about this shows that you're trying way too hard.
Yeah, and the arfcom thing is the only reason I post stuff like I did. It helps keep the stupid down to know there are people on here who actually used stuff professionally before. And before anyone starts telling me that I think I am all that, let me say that I am not cool. I am 20 lbs too fat and havent shot an elk yet despite living in a state for 5 years that has elk season.
I am failing, lol.
oh, and no, I am not OAF.
First of all, that acronym has a very poor rep in the community.
second, I am not in that picture, nor do I own either of those guns. I own a BCM on a S&W lower. It works great.
But the 416 does make my weenie grow just a little when I see it, so maybe it is OAF.
First of all, that acronym has a very poor rep in the community.
second, I am not in that picture, nor do I own either of those guns. I own a BCM on a S&W lower. It works great.
But the 416 does make my weenie grow just a little when I see it, so maybe it is OAF.
Usually that means they used whatever they were handed. LOL
That’s what always made me laugh about guys who are in love with “mil spec” Mil-spec, mil-spec, gotta be Mil-spec. You bitched about every single piece of gear you used the entire time you were in, yet somehow it’s magically wonderful and the best of the best because it meets some minimum requirement for some hammer pin or the exterior contour of a receiver.
Tooo much this.Usually that means they used whatever they were handed. LOL
That’s what always made me laugh about guys who are in love with “mil spec” Mil-spec, mil-spec, gotta be Mil-spec. You bitched about every single piece of gear you used the entire time you were in, yet somehow it’s magically wonderful and the best of the best because it meets some minimum requirement for some hammer pin or the exterior contour of a receiver.
The only time “Mil spec” should really mean anything to anybody is in exactly three places: Durability testing of specific items; Mil-std for coatings, lubricants, etc; and the human performance data and design minima/maxima derived out of the MANPRINT program.
And all of these are simply because Uncle Sam has a bigger budget for destructive testing of statistically significant sample sizes to find out what survives crayon eaters left to their own devices in a variety of environments than anyone else
I'm not an operator but I have worked as a range officer on a public range, attended and shot matches, and attended classes.
Most of the problems I see are ammo and magazine related. Next up is guys building their own ARs and coming up with a ridiculous combination of parts that don't work well together or start failing early.
I've personally killed two DPMS barrels, some small parts on a Bushmaster, had some serious accuracy issues with a Colt, and broke a bolt on a Rock River carbine.
Today, I like Daniel Defense and BCM. My son killed a gas key on an 11.5" BCM at around 5K rounds but he ran that thing super hard and they took care of him under warranty. I have a 16" BCM middy that has never given me any issues when running quality ammo. My PSA builds have run 100%. I can see where they cut some corners on their standard grade parts but their barrels and BCGs have just worked.
Most of the problems I see are ammo and magazine related. Next up is guys building their own ARs and coming up with a ridiculous combination of parts that don't work well together or start failing early.
I've personally killed two DPMS barrels, some small parts on a Bushmaster, had some serious accuracy issues with a Colt, and broke a bolt on a Rock River carbine.
Today, I like Daniel Defense and BCM. My son killed a gas key on an 11.5" BCM at around 5K rounds but he ran that thing super hard and they took care of him under warranty. I have a 16" BCM middy that has never given me any issues when running quality ammo. My PSA builds have run 100%. I can see where they cut some corners on their standard grade parts but their barrels and BCGs have just worked.
Best piston gun you'll get for your money. It's actually cheapest straight from pws. https://www.primaryweapons.com/mk116-pro-rifle
I try to avoid fanboi-ism at all costs. It blinds you to good options when they come along.
This is a pretty solid reply and I appreciate it. The only two things I can see that might do that are a) a crooked/incorrect buffer tube and b) poor machining inside the Bolt Carrier bore for the bolt itself.
When people build their own AR's or have inexpensive factory ones and wonder why the gun isn't smooth at all its usually poor BCG internal finish or poor buffer tube finish. I have also seen AR's that had a crooked buffer tube bore AND ones that had crooked threads on the lower that cocked the tube off at a slight angle. Either will generate a very high wear situation.
What does surprise me a little is that the armorers couldn't figure it out. There are almost no faults in an AR system that you can't track down with a borescope and some inspection tools. Even a sand kill will leave marks you can see. I'm also surprised that someone just ordered the things and said "here you go." No testing it looks like.
On sale in your price range!
www.primaryweapons.com
MK116 PRO Rifle
The Last of the MK1 Pro Series We are closing a chapter in our books and will be discontinuing the MK1 Pro Series uppers, pistols and rifles. While supplies last, we are heavily discounting the remaining stock of our inventory. This is your last chance to own a piece of our history before we...
www.primaryweapons.com
OK so we've got piston ARs, guns that are triple OP's price range, -25 degree temperatures, guys recommending LE trade in rifles, stories about expensive rifles failing in mil service, PSA rifles, Romanian AKs, "if it isn't mil spec it's shit" and a legit secret squirrel special forces guy. All in three pages. Arfcom can suck it, we President now.
The bolded above is accurate. First hand knowledge would've been personally witnessing the types of problems, numbers of, rate of, frequency of, etc.
The OP's strong feelings might have been justified had he personally observed more than a few G SD carbines go down and had metrics to base his claims on.
But I don't doubt that a couple of SecCons may have had issues with new Geissele rifles- in the end, even Colt and FN have shipped some out of spec rifles and components because perfection is impossible.
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Diamondback, Taurus, and Anderson- for the win.
Maybe my engrish was incorrect. What I meant was I personally had interactions and discussions relating to the failure of the super dutys belonging to the people I was talking to. And it was NOT a few rifles. They basically shitcanned all of them from this unit and re issued the old rifles unless a guy really wanted to keep his, which wasn't many.
My bedside pistol is an old rossi 38 loaded with lead. Haters gonna hate.
Step one: post an AR-15.com retard-level thread with a question that’s been asked 1937208262927 times.
Step two: state your opinion
Step three: get in a dick measuring contest with bigjake
Step four: Repeat steps two and three, until the thread has reached 4 pages, and counting.
Step five: kill yourself
Looks like this one is a wrap, boys. Reconvene on Wednesday next week?
Step two: state your opinion
Step three: get in a dick measuring contest with bigjake
Step four: Repeat steps two and three, until the thread has reached 4 pages, and counting.
Step five: kill yourself
Looks like this one is a wrap, boys. Reconvene on Wednesday next week?
And even then, you could be one round away from a failure at that point.
NOTHING is guaranteed.
I can see it happening. Unlimited black budgets and someone wanted a cool toy.
I was assigned to JSOC the first year it was in existance. Missed being a plank holder (though not by much) but was there for our first year anniversary ceremony. In the 2 years I was there we filled a warehouse with stuff we had bought that various people thought would work. Until we broke, smoked or destroyed it and moved onto the next choice.
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