I met a guy one time that used to build ak recievers with a sheet metal brake and heat treat them in his oven.
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Least expensive AR you’d trust your life to?
- Thread starter 300zx_tt
- Start date
The SKS only shares the cartridge with the AK, completely different otherwise.
The AK proliferated because the soviet union and china could manufacture them very cheaply and weren’t shy about providing them by the crate to various forces. the increased clearances between parts mean it is also very difficult to manufacture one that is unusable garbage compared to an AR. Russia had and still has large quantities of poorer grade steels at its disposal, which is why manufacturing weapons was so inexpensive to them, especially since the AK is not designed with high quality metallurgy in mind.
Modern unbiased testing has proved the AR design superior for everything except extreme dust and arctic-like cold weather, but the same testing also proved a well-sealed short stroke gas system to be even more reliable than either (no, not guntubers, testing done on uncle sam’s dime)
Short stroke gas system by whom? Inquiring minds and all that. Cited references for extra credit.
FN, was part of the T&E on the SCAR. Sources are mostly collected commentary by verified SOF and SOCOM T&E folks, its possible the actual report itself is declassified by now and could be dug up, but at this hour its a bit late for me to go seriously digging.
there has also been some done more recently with the HK416, M27 IAR, and NGSW entries which were as far as I recall all short stroke piston designs.
Thank you for replying. I wasn't sure which designs you were referencing.
Gas systems themselves tend to be mostly the same in regards to debris, the failure point for most things not an AR or an AK is stuff being able to get into the reciever to stop the bolt/carrier entering battery, or stuff getting into the charging handle or trigger.
The AUG is the military rifle with the worst reputation for that, while the SCAR is one of the best at preventing it. The big reason the AR performs worse than short stroke is debris entry into the piston chamber through the carrier vent holes can lock the bolt in battery. Difficult to do, which is why the AR is difficult to kill except by shit like moon dust. The AK tends to have problems with shit building up just in front of the magazine causing a failure to enter battery and needing a field strip to get the crud out.
That all makes sense, though it can be tough sorting out fact from fan-fiction here as people have a bit of religious fervor in defending their purchasing choices regardless of the data.
OK, with these parameters, you have some options. But, to stay within these parameters, it won't be the lightest 5.56 gun, or the cheapest. But, you can stay within these limits. I'm normally a 7.62 guy, but for a SHTF AR15, there are some things I have to have. For me, it's this:
(1) Hogue furniture is a must. (Your preference might be different)
(2) A good trigger. Not a super duper target trigger that goes off when you breath hard, but a good, crisp trigger.
(3) At minimum, a good 4150 barrel with enough meat on it to keep it from frying during a brisk rapid fire encounter.
(4) Said barrel needs to be 18". I'm looking for good performance out to 600+ yards with M855s.
(5) Not a deal breaker, but a .223 Wylde chamber would be nice. If not, a tight 5.56 will do.
(6) A good, stout, full length rail perfectly aligned with the upper.
(7) Rail-mounted A2 sights by Lewis Machine & Tool. They are the best. (None of that plastic/flip-up crap.) You will likely have to add these after the fact. These sights should be mounted as far forward on the front sight, and as far rearward on the rear sight as you can get them. Forget the glass. Any glass that's durable enough for a real SHTF gun will put you way over your $1200 limit.
You won't find this gun by window-shopping on the internet. You will have to physically put many rifles in your hands and look at them hard and ask questions. You may need to have someone along who knows what they are looking at. And, it might not be a name brand gun. I found the one I have in a small town gun store. It was a garage build by a small company that specialized in AR15 components. The store owner asked this manufacturer to assemble a few complete guns for him to put on his shelf. He sold me one for right at $1200, including tax. That was three years ago. And yeah, it goes bang every time with M855s, shoots well at distance, and never fails to run.
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The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. It’s like saying what’s the least experienced surgeon you would let perform surgery on you. If it’s life and death and you need surgery you just go with the best you can get or afford. Your not trying clip coupons on your life and death surgery.
This being said there is a plethora of good affordable ar’s out there. If you can only afford a company that does the bare minimum as far as quality control, then take the time and range time to shake it out and do your own quality control.
I’d imagine if you knew you were going to die in 5 minutes you’d take a kid fresh out of Med School over nobody, Right? Or would you just die because you don’t have a surgeon who’s the best of the best?
Some people can’t afford top of the line gear for every aspect of everything they do. And the bottom line is I’d take a $1200 rifle over any handgun out there. Is it the absolute best possible weapon? No obviously there’s better shit out there. Do I care about a billet machined upper and lower set or carbon fiber barrel If I’m in a life or death situation, fuck no. I want booms, lots of booms and if it does that I don’t care what brand any of the parts are.
Believe it or not outside of this site a lot of people live on a budget.
If you would please read both of my posts which are back to back, you and I are not in disagreement. If it’s life and death and all you have is a stick, that’s what you’re going to use but, it would be really sweet to have gun and to know how to use it. I certainly didn’t imply that you needed to spend $$$$$ on any gun.
Also I have five kids and am not exactly wealthy. So I know about budgeting.
That's not what he asked.
The carsinoma will kill you, "some time in the future". What he asked was about something that was going to cause you to die, "RIGHT NOW". Such as you are wheeled into the ER for a life threatening injuries after a car crash. Would you refuse the surgery provided by the doctor on duty who graduated bottom of the class at a state university instead of top of his class at Harvard?
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Exactly. In your specific situation you had the right person (tool) for the job. If the situation required brain surgery, that same PA is probably not going to be nearly so useful and, you will probably want to find someone with a pretty proven track record of cutting open heads and putting them back together.
If you got married thinking what’s the ugliest girl I’m willing to spend the rest of my life with, you started your search out completely backwards.
They're probably still running fine too.
The AK to me is a masterpiece, too bad we can't get cheap ones anymore (or cheap ammo for that matter).
Oof, questions like this seemingly never go well on public forums. OP, sounds like you squared him away with one of yours or something similar?
It's pretty obvious but worth saying if he is not practicing good fundamentals - dry-fire, good drills, zero/grouping (re)verification, etc. - then it will do him very little good when he does a lobster-clawed fumble of his rifle and get's his butthole prolapsed by that very rifle courtesy of some very perturbed assailants who don't want to be shot.
It's pretty obvious but worth saying if he is not practicing good fundamentals - dry-fire, good drills, zero/grouping (re)verification, etc. - then it will do him very little good when he does a lobster-clawed fumble of his rifle and get's his butthole prolapsed by that very rifle courtesy of some very perturbed assailants who don't want to be shot.
I enjoy going shooting with my buddies - so we can compare $400 ARs against $4000 ARs.
The targets look the same - regardless of dollars spent on the hardware.
Equal ammo produces equal target results..... but then we're not shooting 800yds with them either.
I would take any of my "cheap" AR rifles to a 2-way range if it comes to that.
The targets look the same - regardless of dollars spent on the hardware.
Equal ammo produces equal target results..... but then we're not shooting 800yds with them either.
I would take any of my "cheap" AR rifles to a 2-way range if it comes to that.
I don't want to sell the AK short even though the AR is technically a better rifle for western trained soldiers.
The AK was an incredible design for its time. It was the first REAL assault rifle in that it was able to be produced in numbers to outfit every soldier with one. It took alot from the Sturmgewehr with some incredible decisions for its time. They were way ahead of the west with the move to an intermediate caliber and realizing that the battlefield is not a 600 or 1000 KD match.
The AK is durable, reliable, easy to operate and has put more bodies in the ground than any other small arm in the last 70 or so years. Once the russians moved from machined to stamped receivers the game changed. They could produce them 10 times as fast. Given to lightly trained illiterate peasants, its a great gun that will fuck shit up inside of 300m.
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oh I wasn't trying to sell the AK short, just answering the question as to why it proliferated. Cheap and effective means it shows up everywhere. Like the Toyota Hilux in that regard, cheap effective, easy to maintain.
there's plenty of things in everyday life like that, most people just stop noticing.
quote Douglas Adams: "We notice things that don't work, we don't notice things that do"
I have a PSA 11.5" that was their black friday special with the carry handle etc, it runs fine. Ammo is the biggy, I wouldn't want to go into battle with a mag full of tula 223 I don't care what anyone says about how theirs runs great on steel case lol. With an AK yeah but then shitty 7.62x39 is a thing too.
I understand what you're saying. But, you just opened a whole different can of worms when you said "the right (person) tool for the job." A SHTF gun will never be the perfect "right tool for the job" because of all the different scenarios you might encounter. When my wife went to the emergency clinic to deliver our first child with a problem birth, we didn't quibble because her obstetrician was unavailable. She needed help right then, and the physicians assistant that actually delivered our daughter did just fine.
The bottom line is you don't need a $3,000 AR to reliably hit man-sized targets out to 600+ yards. There are several out there in the OPs price range that will do it. The fact is, there are some high-end ARs out there that choke on milspec ammo. I own one.
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I never said or implied that you needed a $3000 dollar AR. I have cheap guns and I have expensive guns and I am quite fond of all of them, otherwise I would get rid of them.
I truly am glad that everything went well with your wife’s delivery. I too have been in that situation and it is not fun. The point is given the opportunity to plan ahead, we would want the best most qualified person on the face of the earth to take care of our loved ones. And that is why I say get the best gun you can get. That’s not a certain brand or dollar amount. It is a gun you can take out prove reliable and worthy, at least on the range. Before you, God forbid, find yourself in a situation where you need it in a life or death scenario.
Well said but I think we disagree on one thing. I’ll cut back my beer budget, food budget, won’t travel unnecessarily (who wants to go anywhere anyway), to keep my gun hobbies funded to the max. Priorities man.
Add a sling, stick the light back on it and that's all the rifle you need to defend yourself.
That's funny, I was sort of thinking the same thing. I built a few of their 16" carbine kits up for family on PSA lowers. Long-term, on a budget, sale-shopping builds. Put PA red dots on them (the smaller one). They've been shot for over a decade w/o issues. My father-in-law helped us tremendously during a difficult pregnancy and I knew he would never get one for himself. He was an 82nd Airplane Ganger back in the 70s. I even put together a LBE complete with canteens and filled mag pouches. The M16s he shot were beat-down VN rifles. He couldn't get over how well the del-ton shot and has killed a bunch of pests on his property.No love for Del-Ton in this thread?
I've been impressed with the quality of parts from Del Ton. For cheap parts, I like them a lot better than PSA. Aero parts aren't that much more though.
Not sure if I'd trust my life until it's been thoroughly tested, but picked up a BCA upper last week for $219 (w/ coupon); heavy fluted 16" 223 Wylde with carbine length gas tube.
Then l ordered from PSA's Easter sale their AR15 MFT minimalist EPT lower for $159 (tracking shows it comes today!). I could've picked cheaper options from both, but with a decent red-dot & a few tweaks, it'll be a sub $500 ready to "test" carbine!
Then l ordered from PSA's Easter sale their AR15 MFT minimalist EPT lower for $159 (tracking shows it comes today!). I could've picked cheaper options from both, but with a decent red-dot & a few tweaks, it'll be a sub $500 ready to "test" carbine!
When 300zx_tt first posed this question, I thought here we go again... But everyone has different circumstances and budgets.
I stand by my recommendation that a PWS AR is the best choice in the $1000-1200 price range that was given.
Lots of comments and claims have been posted about cheap, really cheap builds, some very rubbish bin builds, that are supposed to be reliable. Having seen many failures and significant breakage over time these builds make me chuckle because they are all only one minor parts failure away from being useless. In many many cases those people have simply been lucky. Lot to consider - does one wish to rely on luck or to be as well prepared as they can reasonably afford?
If someone is serious about being prepared and ready to respond with an AR platform while on a tight budget they should think ahead, plan and properly prepare. Spares kits are a requirement. Basic tools to address issues are essential. A second similar firearm is a really good idea when and if possible, again longer term planning. Extra everything that commonly fails, or can fail leaving the AR inoperative is not an unreasonable proposition.
I'm sitting here with my bowl of popcorn reading some ridiculous responses. All the best.
I stand by my recommendation that a PWS AR is the best choice in the $1000-1200 price range that was given.
Lots of comments and claims have been posted about cheap, really cheap builds, some very rubbish bin builds, that are supposed to be reliable. Having seen many failures and significant breakage over time these builds make me chuckle because they are all only one minor parts failure away from being useless. In many many cases those people have simply been lucky. Lot to consider - does one wish to rely on luck or to be as well prepared as they can reasonably afford?
If someone is serious about being prepared and ready to respond with an AR platform while on a tight budget they should think ahead, plan and properly prepare. Spares kits are a requirement. Basic tools to address issues are essential. A second similar firearm is a really good idea when and if possible, again longer term planning. Extra everything that commonly fails, or can fail leaving the AR inoperative is not an unreasonable proposition.
I'm sitting here with my bowl of popcorn reading some ridiculous responses. All the best.
I used to think that way too but tbh it's kinda dumb. You don't buy something like a mossberg 500 or a glock 9mm or your little j frame 38 and then shoot 1000 rounds through it to make sure it works. The only reason I would tell someone to get say a Colt basic carbine over a PSA basic carbine is the QC that (hopefully) comes with the higher price and not the "mil spec trigger pins" etc.
the lowest budget is aero, everything else is looking up imho
cheap doesn't mean bad and expensive doesn't mean good. Too many people equate price with quality and I've seen plenty of quality rigs with qc issues including some of the beloved ones here on this board. Funny thing about these forums, everyone is a master builder, sniper, a real bad ass but in reality, none of that matter from behind the screen as it's 2022 and ARs are not building rockets for trips to the moon. My 12yr old built his first AR and it's been stellar over 1k. Buy good parts, that doesn't mean expensive, but buy good parts and keep things to spec and you SHOULD be ok.
and please leave all the ninja mall warrior classes to yourselves, man some of you sound ridiculous given what we know about a lot of these classes.
cheap doesn't mean bad and expensive doesn't mean good. Too many people equate price with quality and I've seen plenty of quality rigs with qc issues including some of the beloved ones here on this board. Funny thing about these forums, everyone is a master builder, sniper, a real bad ass but in reality, none of that matter from behind the screen as it's 2022 and ARs are not building rockets for trips to the moon. My 12yr old built his first AR and it's been stellar over 1k. Buy good parts, that doesn't mean expensive, but buy good parts and keep things to spec and you SHOULD be ok.
and please leave all the ninja mall warrior classes to yourselves, man some of you sound ridiculous given what we know about a lot of these classes.
Yet there are credible people making posts in this thread about those higher end rifles shitting the bed as well.
It matters not that someone paid $2-3-4K for their rifle, as they are just as dead in the water as the poverty pony guys, if an extractor, firing pin, spring, etc goes TU on it. In fact if you have a single gucci AR you are even more screwed at that point then the guy with two or more "poors" rifles.
Two is one and one is none. Exactly the point I made in one of my replies. I bought 3 rifles from PSA for what one gucci rifle can cost In fact with my addition of a 20" rifle from them, I am now 4 guns into it for just over $2K. Then adding optics, lights and slings put me at sub $4K for 4 fully ready rifles.
As backup to the backup rifles, I have spare parts to include a complete BCG stocked.
Actually it is indeed a prudent idea to run a good amount of rounds through ANY weapon before trusting your life to it. As even the big names can put out stinkers.
I have had BRAND NEW weapons from Colt, Winchester, Kimber and Ruger that all needed warranty service. At one point I had TWO brand new Ruger weapons (an SR22 and a 10/22 TD) in for warranty at the same time.
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spot on, always run a good amount of rounds through them and use different kinds before stamping it trustworthy
and even then... have a spare parts kit. I know I do for all the rifles I rely on
A couple of guys at work LOVE that thing... apparently, they are impossible to come by at the moment...
Buds gun shop has them in stock right now. Nice rifle for the price.
Whatever you get, be careful if you select any gun with proprietary parts. After all, all guns break at times. Can you get the needed parts?
Love my FN DMII ... bought it for $1,800 3 years ago... foolproof and "the nuts" accurate out to 800 yads
