Um yeah dude, its called being "gun poor" and its a trademark of most gun store employees as we must distinquish ourselves from the poors on the other side of the counter who think aero precision is top shelf.
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Least expensive AR you’d trust your life to?
- Thread starter 300zx_tt
- Start date
No I didn’t. I actually don’t think I even ever did grow up.
This is my go to at the moment. PWS MK114 Mod 2-M upper with Razor Gen IIE 1-6 (JM-1 reticle) in a Bobro mount and BCM VFG on an 80% lower CNC machined in my Arrow 500 VMC with a PSA premium lower build kit, Geissele SSA (on KNS anti-rotate pins), Rogers Superstock. Also added Teal Blue Bravo PDQs to all my AR lowers.
Unfortunately the upper alone is around $1400 so not relevant to the OP.
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Exactly.
Does anyone here have the invoices that PSA and BCM were sent by manufacturers of the parts they sell that prove that they're not buying the same parts from the same contractors?
While checking out a gamers KAC and reading paperwork I noticed---there were too many proprietary parts---in a cheap or inexpensive AR at least you can buy any quality part you want for replacement---what happens during bad times,etc,etc ,and your proprietary parts go down? Can they be replaced with unworthy standard AR parts?
Actually, I have had my LPK suddenly fail. The USGI trigger in a gun ate shit when the hammer broke off. And my bolt carrier....heh. And the buffer too. The damn pin walked out and it destroyed the buffer tube in a massive jam.
I have never had an upper suddenly fail with the exception of an M110 that one time it got ran over. Fail isn’t a great word for it though.
Also, I’m currently dealing with my ultra high end guns eating a cock in totally different ways too.
Then again I shoot 7 days a week...
I think the biggest mistake people make (self definitely included) is worrying too much about brand names, logos and descriptive terms like "mil-spec" and "tier 1". Yes, we all want our guns to run and be indestructible. No matter what roll mark you buy, there were some built on Mondays and Fridays. But I have learned you are far more likely to be let down by a lack of training than your blaster suddenly shitting the bed.
Unless it's an ATI. Just don't buy an ATI.
Unless it's an ATI. Just don't buy an ATI.
You're not wrong. I RO matches all the time and I can't believe how many people have really nice gear and have been shooting for years and still fumble through just loading and unloading guns off the clock. Once the timer goes off they go full retard and induce malfunctions and have zero ability to think on their feet to rectify them.
Maybe not necessarily relevant to the subject, but could you share the brand of the parts that were the cause of failure?
Certainly that is any firearm, this thread is about low cost AR's - "dude".
Seen many different AR parts issues in my profession. Yes parts fail suddenly. No need for your claims that they don't. If they didn't have problems from time to time I wouldn't have that much business, and business is really good.
Ever have an AR extractor or extractor spring fail? Do you have parts and tools to make that repair in the field? Ever had a hammer/trigger pin walk out? Your position is that stuff doesn't happen.
My point wasn't only quality of the kit rather the preparedness of the user. Reliability & trust is a function of a well made firearm, proper maintenance and adequate spares should a field failure occur.
Maybe I should start picturing all of the broken/damaged AR parts that come across my benches.
Seen many different AR parts issues in my profession. Yes parts fail suddenly. No need for your claims that they don't. If they didn't have problems from time to time I wouldn't have that much business, and business is really good.
Ever have an AR extractor or extractor spring fail? Do you have parts and tools to make that repair in the field? Ever had a hammer/trigger pin walk out? Your position is that stuff doesn't happen.
My point wasn't only quality of the kit rather the preparedness of the user. Reliability & trust is a function of a well made firearm, proper maintenance and adequate spares should a field failure occur.
Maybe I should start picturing all of the broken/damaged AR parts that come across my benches.
Yes they are. They are using SUPERIOR small parts, many made in house or with a controlled vendor instead of bought in bulk from Chinese companies with questionable metallurgy and heat treatment.
That is the difference between colt/bcm/dd/KAC and most of the budget stuff. You have no idea where they get small parts from. You are paying for not only quality, but testing. Is PSA or Ruger inspecting every bolt carrier and ensuring the critical dimensions are correct before letting it be sold?
Even if they get them from the same place, which is unlikely, the testing and acceptable involved with a company like KAC is going to result in a much higher probability of a product that will not fail.
This is the kind of ignorance that pisses alot of people off who understand this industry. You got uneducated masses spouting bullshit about something they DO NOT UNDERSTAND like its gospel.
What do you think happens when Colt or BCM rejects a batch of small parts back to the manufacture? Think they just go in the trash? No they are resold at discount and end up in budget guns, parts kits ect.
People like you need to post less and read more.
In response to the “it’s milspec so you can trust your life to it” posts. If you have ever been part of the great green machine you will quickly learn that milspec is an acronym that when translated means - The cheapest possible shit that can pass hardness and random measurement tests. It does not mean good, great or fabulous. The military has a mediocre standard.
Compared to training classes and days on the range the average military m4/M16 is exponentially more reliable than commercial guns. You still have parts breakage but they are usually due to fatigue or poor maintenance schedules.
Its not black and white and trying to simplify a statement about something being mil-spec does not work. The context matters.
Having a defined specification that can be tested to and repeated absolutely matters compared to nothing at all and the whim of the manufacture.
But what the fuck do I know, I just spent a decade fixing them.
The buffer was unbranded really - just the sort of generic stuff that you buy. I have noted that unlike most AR parts at the low end there appear to be a LOT of different buffer makers.
Trigger group came in some bulk packaged LPK. It had the common cast trigger stamps for pretty much any parts kit. It was the 99% market share manufacturer for AR mil spec triggers, not some rando.
The BCG was made by RADIAN.
3 posts in 10 years and 2 of them today. Did you just wake up from a coma or something?
Most often they've lied about the "trouble-free round count"
Also, "been shooting for 25 years" in and of itself, means fuck all to me. Most people who can say that are also dirt shooters who have never taken any training, never compete, and whose entire practice regimen is putting up a big ass B-27 5 yards away and blasting aimlessly at it.
Do you ask for AS9102 first article inspection reports for all the little parts you need to buy to assemble your frankengun?
Don't answer, I already know the answer is no. Which means you have no earthly idea of what kind of shit you're sticking into your rifle unless you buy from the few reputable component makers who do things right.
I make my living in precision manufacturing.
You can't tell shit about the quality of machining by looking at it. There's a fucking reason we have calipers, micrometers, air gauges, probes, CMMs, optical comparators, sine blocks, and all other sorts of high $ inspection equipment at work.
"The barrels are a wash they're both CHF CL" has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. What about the dimensional consistency of all the bore features (land ID, groove ID, rifling rate, straightness, cylindricity, etc)? What about the plating thickness, both its nominal value and its variation along the length of the barrel? What about heat treatment, normalizing, and stress relief operations, how well were they done? What about the interference fit between the barrel and barrel extension? I could go on but don't think I need to......
The morons get proven wrong then go silent, only to be replaced with another idiot in a week spouting the same dumb shit.
Meanwhile its like fucking groundhog day dealing with ignorant dipshits who have the IQ of a cumstain.
And they wonder why most of the legit people here don't post. Its a complete waste of their time.
Why don't you instead of just spouting out obvious variations that could "possibly" exist between two separate cold Hammer forged Chrome line barrels take your time and your money and compare the two barrels together instead of just running your keyboard commando mouth..
Dude you are the biggest fucking tool of SH. Every thread that you get involved in by the end of it everybody's telling you to fuck off!!
I have not once ever seen you contribute anything remotely useful or productive in any thread, how many times have you been caught spouting bullshit about products you don't even own., Just keep bored verbal diarrhea.
Please for once show us how badass you are, show us how you compete in all these competitions and how you have this plethora of high-end firearms and show us all how to use them and how they're better than anything anybody else owns.
Yeah you are!! see I can actually get a DD and a Geissele SD rifle side by side and show real world differences between the two, or like this weekend I can do mag dumps down a 6.5 Creedmoor proof research carbon fiber wrap barrel just to show what the extreme spread looks like on a heated barrel.
You just like the other dildo above never contribute anything useful or real world.
You may not like or agree with my opinion but at least I put the actual work in and share my experiences and my data with other members on here so maybe going forth they can make a better decision on future products that they choose to purchase, that's what these discussion threads are actually for in case you didn't know.
I don't build AR's with forward assist any more. Why would you want to jam a round into the gun that had trouble chambering it in the first place. Rack it out of there and drive on.
The leader of the morons has shown up. Glad we have you to double down on stupid.
More poor people noises. Whats funny is there is about a half a dozen people here on this site that I compete and shoot with. Most of them run just as gucci shit they just don't waste their time arguing with idiots like you.
You contribute nothing of substance but then accuse me and 308pirate of the same, after we have explained why you and your band of merry morons are wrong.
You think you bring value but you are just more bad data leading ignorant people who don't know any better down a path of failure. You wouldn't know what actual weapons testing and acceptance is if it was up your ass sideways.
Its hilarious when you have people from industry and the DOD who do this shit for a living, and clowns like you want to argue with them about their sample size of 1 using testing procedures that would get you laughed out of most shops.
FA failure is VERY rare. Most people do not even have the manual of arms down to use it, or need to use it. Its most common in military arms where springs are worn out and not using the mag catch to release the bolt. I don't think its something really worth worrying about but at the same time its one of those things you would rather have than not have. Virtually every service weapon needs a way to put the bolt into battery other than spring power. Either they have a charging handle that can push into battery, a FA or grooves on the bolt like HK's so you can push with your fingers. They are just like the FA groves on a AR/M16 bolt. In 10 years of fixing mil guns I don't think i ever saw a broke or malfunctioning forward assist.
Whenever doing patrols or outside of the wire I would periodically hit the FA just to make sure the gun was in battery and didn't get dislodged bouncing around. OCD more than anything but brought peace of mind.
All you can talk about are superficial and cosmetic differences. You can't measure anything and you can't validate your opinions about how each one is made with data.
EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES - Knight's Armament
www.knightarmco.com
I mean if people really want to learn whats involved, there are plenty of job openings.
Notice one of those jobs is Quality Assurance Inspector. This is your first clue.
Oh shit..I didn't know that you were a major Firearms Manufacturer or a elite DOD contractor.. please enlighten regale us all with just who you are and show us the vastness of your superiority.
I get bored and sometimes comment here on SH despite knowing better.
Most of the squared away guys don't comment on these threads because being squared away has very little to do with your carbine. Buy a middle of the roader and move on to something important. If you can afford everything important and still have a dick ton of money left over then get something nice.
You'd be amazed at the number of guys with a KAC rifle and a Kwikset lock on their paper thin front door....the number of people who don't know what security film is for a window...folks with no security cameras...30 seconds of food in the pantry and no water....no comms because they don't know enough people they trust to even need comms...100 extra pounds of McDonalds to soak up the bullets instead of armor...the list fucking goes on.
Figure out what the slots are that ensure your survival and then try putting something middle of the road in every one of them. Then start the upgrade cycle.
Most of the squared away guys don't comment on these threads because being squared away has very little to do with your carbine. Buy a middle of the roader and move on to something important. If you can afford everything important and still have a dick ton of money left over then get something nice.
You'd be amazed at the number of guys with a KAC rifle and a Kwikset lock on their paper thin front door....the number of people who don't know what security film is for a window...folks with no security cameras...30 seconds of food in the pantry and no water....no comms because they don't know enough people they trust to even need comms...100 extra pounds of McDonalds to soak up the bullets instead of armor...the list fucking goes on.
Figure out what the slots are that ensure your survival and then try putting something middle of the road in every one of them. Then start the upgrade cycle.
I'm a pretty legit guy...and I can either tell you who I am and what I do/where or I can talk about how the sausage is made. Not both.
To no one in particular- SH would be a boring place if we weren't allowed to express our personalities, our cynicism, our bitterness, passive-aggressiveness, anti-social behavior, etc., etc... In that regard I want to tell all the Di fangirlz to take a pill- because PISTON is the future! 
Buy what you like and phuck anyone who bashes your choices- unless I'm the one bashing your choices- then you're wrong in your judgement.
Buy what you like and phuck anyone who bashes your choices- unless I'm the one bashing your choices- then you're wrong in your judgement.
To no one in particular- SH would be a boring place if we weren't allowed to express our personalities, our cynicism, our bitterness, passive-aggressiveness, anti-social behavior, etc., etc... In that regard I want to tell all the Di fangirlz to take a pill- because PISTON is the future!
Buy what you like and phuck anyone who bashes your choices- unless I'm the one bashing your choices- then you're wrong in your judgement.
I don’t want to hate on PSA or any other manufacturer but, I do want to let those of you arguing with the “my cheap rifle is better because I can buy 2 cheap rifles” guys, will not prevail. You can’t logically argue with someone that believes PSA uses the same quality parts as BCM or Colt or Noveske etc. Anyone who has put together more than a couple of rifles from different manufacturers knows that not all parts are created or machined or finished equally. That’s not to say good parts can’t fail or cheap parts can’t function but, they aren’t the same.
Arguing that a cheaply manufactured ar15 is every bit as good and equal quality as the top tier ar15 brands, is like trying to argue that Savage is every bit as good as an AI.
Quality costs money. It applies in ar-15's just as much as it does in bolt guns.
Quality costs money. It applies in ar-15's just as much as it does in bolt guns.
I think you have to consider what you want to spend and then upgrade as necessary. I have a Piston S&W M&P15. Runs everything I put in it. 1 issue in 500+ rounds and it was a dud primer. Cost 700 new. Wish my Aero was as reliable, 7 misfeeds in about 800 rounds. My MAA is flawless in 400 rounds. KISS is the key to ARs. Yes, I also have more expendive ones, but they are moreaccurate, not necessarily more reliable.
I was a bolt gun guy for decades, never ran an AR in the service, The Corps issued me an M-14 and it ran like a Raped Ape, fast and with a single mindset. I knew that if I maintained it, it would NEVER let me down...; and it never did. There was enough combat in the mix to confirm that assessment of mine, arriving home unscratched. I bought an M1A, loved it, sold it for emergency cash, then found out that I couldn't afford to replace it. I still managed to live on.
I did a bunch of reading and talking about the AR's. Back then, there were the Mil-Spec providers, and some Custom builders; good but, again, I couldn't afford a good one.
I found a Stag (in a gun store) and it had a 24" barrel on an AR-15. There always seemed to be one or more of that model standing tall behind the owner's desk, waiting for pickup. I asked him why and he showed me a target; from his own one of them. Order placed that evening (there was one brief phone all involved....). Eventually, I ended up with an identical pair (semi modified, both precisely the same. I had them for impromptu matches; and I could grab up either one with the same confidence. They worked, period. But they were not cheap.
I wanted to do other things (barrel lengths, chamberings, very lightweight, or bull barrels). That would have to be custom, and custom wasn't on my budget. But builder tools and parts were. I would start with an AR Stoner Upper (properly barreled) and a PSA Lower (bottom dollar model), buy furniture (nearly always Luth AR, nothing OEM fits me) and add an inexpensive two-stage trigger. Nothing to write home about but they all fit me absolutely identically, and operated the same.
For optics, they all wear Bushnell AR-XXX BDC scopes, which makes ranging a matter of using the LRF, and choosing an aiming dot on the reticle; fast on the target, smooth on the trigger. They are miles short of a special order gun from a professional builder, but I can afford them, and they can be (some have been) load developed to be adequately accurate for my moderate needs. I'll live with 1.5MOA, I want 0.5MOA.
Can I trust my life to them? I don't know, but I have above average hopes, and will probably find out the exact answer to that question, right soon, now. I live 50 miles from the Border and I hear it's likely to get rowdy around here, maybe even as soon as next month. Not looking for a row, but maybe making ready if one descends on me. Just like each and every one of my neighbors, Liberal or Conservative.
This week I also picked up the second 500pc jug of Top Brass 308 (there is a PA-10, same ergonomic configuration as the ar-15's), and three pounds of powder. I know the brass is all Mil-Surp so-so. But it's all mil-spec (i.e., same spec), and I have all the tools for proper prep. A couple of random handfuls of cases from both jugs all fit the case gauge and do not have inner grooves, so at least I have a place to start. All brass will be properly inspected and prepped as part of due course. I have near enough bullets, and near enough primers; and the Moon is still new.
Greg
I did a bunch of reading and talking about the AR's. Back then, there were the Mil-Spec providers, and some Custom builders; good but, again, I couldn't afford a good one.
I found a Stag (in a gun store) and it had a 24" barrel on an AR-15. There always seemed to be one or more of that model standing tall behind the owner's desk, waiting for pickup. I asked him why and he showed me a target; from his own one of them. Order placed that evening (there was one brief phone all involved....). Eventually, I ended up with an identical pair (semi modified, both precisely the same. I had them for impromptu matches; and I could grab up either one with the same confidence. They worked, period. But they were not cheap.
I wanted to do other things (barrel lengths, chamberings, very lightweight, or bull barrels). That would have to be custom, and custom wasn't on my budget. But builder tools and parts were. I would start with an AR Stoner Upper (properly barreled) and a PSA Lower (bottom dollar model), buy furniture (nearly always Luth AR, nothing OEM fits me) and add an inexpensive two-stage trigger. Nothing to write home about but they all fit me absolutely identically, and operated the same.
For optics, they all wear Bushnell AR-XXX BDC scopes, which makes ranging a matter of using the LRF, and choosing an aiming dot on the reticle; fast on the target, smooth on the trigger. They are miles short of a special order gun from a professional builder, but I can afford them, and they can be (some have been) load developed to be adequately accurate for my moderate needs. I'll live with 1.5MOA, I want 0.5MOA.
Can I trust my life to them? I don't know, but I have above average hopes, and will probably find out the exact answer to that question, right soon, now. I live 50 miles from the Border and I hear it's likely to get rowdy around here, maybe even as soon as next month. Not looking for a row, but maybe making ready if one descends on me. Just like each and every one of my neighbors, Liberal or Conservative.
This week I also picked up the second 500pc jug of Top Brass 308 (there is a PA-10, same ergonomic configuration as the ar-15's), and three pounds of powder. I know the brass is all Mil-Surp so-so. But it's all mil-spec (i.e., same spec), and I have all the tools for proper prep. A couple of random handfuls of cases from both jugs all fit the case gauge and do not have inner grooves, so at least I have a place to start. All brass will be properly inspected and prepped as part of due course. I have near enough bullets, and near enough primers; and the Moon is still new.
Greg
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You can't prove that the parts PSA sells are not the same parts BCM sells, either. Just because you're willing to pay more for the name does not make the parts any different regardless of how much you wish it to be true.
For piston why not a brien, I heard good things about the brownels ones, also could ways go AK “pistol” some sweet examples out there
You know what, you are right all of the parts come from the exact same, giant bin. And also your Savage has 20,000 rounds down the barrel and still holds 1/8 MOA and Joe Biden is building the greatest economy the world has ever seen. All I’m saying is I’ve used parts and part kits from various manufacturers and if they were all machined by the same guy he is doing fantastic work for some companies and really struggling to turn out a well finished part for others.
Can we touch on optics you can trust your life on too? NCStar is the same as Nightforce. Save some money for some Tula, which is the same as Lapua.
Just remember guys, get some training… and eat ramen for a month so you can afford a set of crye pants with knee pads. Only then will you be a stiff dicked pipe hitter, ready for SHTF TEOTWAWKI WROLmnop LQBTQIA++.
Just remember guys, get some training… and eat ramen for a month so you can afford a set of crye pants with knee pads. Only then will you be a stiff dicked pipe hitter, ready for SHTF TEOTWAWKI WROLmnop LQBTQIA++.
