Least expensive AR you’d trust your life to?

[rcs]

Can we touch on optics you can trust your life on too? NCStar is the same as Nightforce. Save some money for some Tula, which is the same as Lapua.

Just remember guys, get some training… and eat ramen for a month so you can afford a set of crye pants with knee pads. Only then will you be a stiff dicked pipe hitter, ready for SHTF TEOTWAWKI WROLmnop LQBTQIA++.

There are several reputable airsoft companies producing cloned optics that are just as good if not better than s&b, Nightforce and the others.

I haven’t yet reached crye pants level but my Walmart jeans are made on the same loom as those crye pants anyway.

 

[Desert_Racer]

I heard a Super Sniper uses Shit glass, which is basically the same as Schott.

 

[The King]

You can't prove that the parts PSA sells are not the same parts BCM sells, either. Just because you're willing to pay more for the name does not make the parts any different regardless of how much you wish it to be true.

That isn't entirely true. Hear me out - I'm not trying to argue on this one, just get more information in peoples hands.

If you look at LPK's from a bunch of manufacturers you can clearly tell that a) there is one company making 8/10 of them....and b) there are 4 or 5 companies making the rest.

Of those 4 or 5 making the rest, some are fine (aka probably won't kill you) and some suck a dead donkey dick.

I have built a few PSA's. The last PSA had the dead donkey dick LPK parts from the factory. The rest were fine. It was so bad the rear takedown pin would pivot when you pulled it out because the track was cut crooked.

One easy way to tell that you have the donkey diller special is the little springs that go to the take down pin retaining pins are coated in some black shit and not silver.

I'll also circle back. The parts that seem to fuck people are the BCG, barrel, and buffer tube. On occasion the lower has the mag catch slot cut in the WRONG position.

As for BCG's, there are only a few I really like. Mil-spec rock-stock, and some of the Gucci shit like a JP, LMT, KAC. I found the suppressed setting BCGS like the RCA and Gemtech were also pretty good. I really like the surefire OBC - seems a good middle ground and comes with a good spring and buffer.

You can tell its probably a mil-spec one by the chrome lining in the bolt bore of the carrier. The interior of the bolt bore should be mirror smooth.

As for the barrel, massive overpassing, under gassing, and shitty chamber work seem to be the majority complaints.

And finally, buffer tubes are all the fuck over the place. Get a 7075 tube that has a smooth inner bore. Many companies don't finish the surface in there and it does reduce your budget for fouling in the system. BCM, colt, etc run smooth because the BCG bore and buffer tube bore are like glass. You can feel this part with your finger. Jam it in there like its a vagina and see if you feel heavy machining marks. If so, pass on it.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Quality =/= reliability

no one is doubting a KAC is a higher quality firearm than a PSA.....that doesnt mean its necessarily more reliable.

a Ferrari is by all accounts a higher quality vehicle compared to a Honda Civic, better body work, hand stitched interior, precision tuned engine, ect.......but which one is still going to be running in 200,000 miles?

hell, look at Rolex, a Rolex Sub is hands down a better watch than my Casio G-shock........but guess which one keeps better time?......a Rolex is ~ + 5 sec/ day.....a g-shock is ~+ 0.5 sec/ day


....know what you are paying for....

The fact you would say something as dumb as a KAC is not reliable when the entire fucking system has been designed to run at all costs, just shows your ignorance on the subject.

You have already been proven wrong over and over and just keep doubling down on the stupid.

Stop trying to argue about shit you don't even begin to understand.

Everyone reading this is laughing at you.

 

[Desert_Racer]

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You can't prove that the parts PSA sells are not the same parts BCM sells, either. Just because you're willing to pay more for the name does not make the parts any different regardless of how much you wish it to be true.

Does not mean its not true. PSA is not going to come out and admit they use the cheapest shit parts they can find the same way KAC is not going to explain to competitors what they do in house to make the sausage. When a batch of parts gets rejected from a top tier manufacture, and it happens more often then you think, they do not go into trash. They go back to manufacture who resells them to budget brands. This is how the industry works.

If you worked for them you would. If you knew people who worked there, they would tell you. Not everything is plastered on a billboard for the idiots who needs a picture book to teach them to wipe their ass can learn something.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

man, the autistic whingeing from the people who mortgaged their house buying Gucci gear only to find out a $400 poverty build goes bang just the same is fucking glorious.


View attachment 7856830

Sorry you can't afford nice gear and are stuck being poor.

If I had to morgage my house to buy a $2K rifle, I would be bitter and angry too.

 

[The King]

The fact you would say something as dumb as a KAC is not reliable when the entire fucking system has been designed to run at all costs, just shows your ignorance on the subject.

You have already been proven wrong over and over and just keep doubling down on the stupid.

Stop trying to argue about shit you don't even begin to understand.

Everyone reading this is laughing at you.

I'm not. You seem like the guy who had every member of the team you manage at work quit all at once....3 or 4 times in a row...and wonders what the fuck was wrong with THEM.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I'm not. You seem like the guy who had every member of the team you manage at work quit all at once....3 or 4 times in a row...and wonders what the fuck was wrong with THEM.

Who is even talking to you? Thank you for providing nothing of value to the conversation.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

show me where i said KAC is not reliable

come back you me when your autistic ass learns how to fucking read

mcameron said:

Quality =/= reliability

no one is doubting a KAC is a higher quality firearm than a PSA.....that doesnt mean its necessarily more reliable.

 

[The King]

Who is even talking to you? Thank you for providing nothing of value to the conversation.

Should I be providing nothing of value in this conversation....I'm in good company.

I gotta know....which banned SH members shadow account are you? Bender? Kevin Brittingham? Mark Larue?

 

[theLBC]

lots of ak-47 variants are pieces of shit, but they are still reliable as fuck.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

yeah.....im not seeing anything in there that says KAC isnt reliable....

...i really hope i dont have to explain how words work to you...


to all the people in this thread who possess a reading level above 3rd grade....you are just looking like a fucking retard.

Ok so now we want to get cute. You are just going to keep moving goal posts around because you are getting dismantled on anything technical related to the AR platform in this thread.

You just compared a KAC to a PSA and said its not more reliable, which would mean its not reliable. This is known as deductive reasoning, which they clearly did not teach in whatever trailer park you grew up in.

You aren't going to win this one, but feel free to keep trying. Its entertaining.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

lots of ak-47 variants are pieces of shit, but they are still reliable as fuck.

For the 3rd time in this thread... Reliable is relative.

 

[MadDuner]

To recap the original question and answer:
I would trust my life to a PSA AR15 any day of the week.

 

[theLBC]

For the 3rd time in this thread... Reliable is relative.

your point?
yes, reliable is relative to the context in which the word is used.
when people buy a kac, i assume they want something that is reliably 1moa or better. if it isn't, they probably didn't get the reliability they wanted.
does that sort of precision in manufacturing and fit make the weapon more reliably go boom than something else? not necessarily.

 

[roostercogburn98]

stiff dicked pipe hitter

Raphoutroud

 

[gopherslayer]

Should I be providing nothing of value in this conversation....I'm in good company.

I gotta know....which banned SH members shadow account are you? Bender? Kevin Brittingham? Mark Larue?

I was thinking crabsandfootball but this guy seems to be less abrasive by a smidge.

 

[Steve_In_29]

your point?
yes, reliable is relative to the context in which the word is used.
when people buy a kac, i assume they want something that is reliably 1moa or better. if it isn't, they probably didn't get the reliability they wanted.
does that sort of precision in manufacturing and fit make the weapon more reliably go boom than something else? not necessarily.

Example of a tightly fitted competition 1911. Which is VERY accurate and reliably goes boom everytime during a match. Now put that accurized and very $$$$ 1911 in a field environment and the cheap GI spec 1911 that isn't capable of anywhere near the same level of accuracy will run rings around it as far as reliability goes.

 

[MadDuner]

Example of a tightly fitted competition 1911. Which is VERY accurate and reliably goes boom everytime during a match. Now put that accurized and very $$$$ 1911 in a field environment and the cheap GI spec 1911 that isn't capable of anywhere near the same level of accuracy will run rings around it as far as reliability goes.

I like that fitting comparison.

My race car is capable of outstanding performance, but I’m trusting my daily driver over the long haul. The race car is way more fun to drive, and way more expensive, but I‘m not relying on it to get me to Idaho and back from Arizona.

 

[Steve_In_29]

For the 3rd time in this thread... Reliable is relative.

I agree it's relative.

While the AK might have choked on some mud, it is the easiest to clean out and get going again. Dunk it in some muddy water or even piss into the action and its back in the game.

I highly doubt a SCAR would last decades in the hands of some Afghan villager like the AK has been shown to.

 

[r.tenorio671]

 

[Farsight]

I tend to gravitate to the ones that I have the most rounds through, and typically I have to try a few or tinker with them before I find a good one. I figure on putting the cost of the rifle in ammo through it just to break it in, sort it out, and get to know each rifle. My budget = rifle 49% + Ammo 51%, and then I buy more ammo, a sling, a good light, and a solid optic if it is a keeper.

 

[WindstormSCR]

I’ll put on the fire suit and actually argue that a KAC is less ideal than a mil-spec PSA, for one very very simple reason: presence of proprietary parts.

That’s by no means a negative if you have prepared adequately and have spares on hand; but if you need to affect repairs and only have what you can find, then at least the PSA can be repaired with parts from nearly any AR, unlike the KAC (depending on the failed component)

the same comment generally applies to any rifle not an AR or AK. Have spares of your critical items if you plan to rely on it.

 

[Naaman]

Quality =/= reliability

no one is doubting a KAC is a higher quality firearm than a PSA.....that doesnt mean its necessarily more reliable.

a Ferrari is by all accounts a higher quality vehicle compared to a Honda Civic, better body work, hand stitched interior, precision tuned engine, ect.......but which one is still going to be running in 200,000 miles?

hell, look at Rolex, a Rolex Sub is hands down a better watch than my Casio G-shock........but guess which one keeps better time?......a Rolex is ~ + 5 sec/ day.....a g-shock is ~+ 0.5 sec/ day


....know what you are paying for....

Piggybacking on this:

Quality =/= "feature rich."

 

[TurboTrout]

I’ll put on the fire suit and actually argue that a KAC is less ideal than a mil-spec PSA, for one very very simple reason: presence of proprietary parts.

That’s by no means a negative if you have prepared adequately and have spares on hand; but if you need to affect repairs and only have what you can find, then at least the PSA can be repaired with parts from nearly any AR, unlike the KAC (depending on the failed component)

the same comment generally applies to any rifle not an AR or AK. Have spares of your critical items if you plan to rely on it.

Oh snap, now all the mil cosplay folks are going to get their digicamo panties in a wad

 

[Naaman]

I’ll put on the fire suit and actually argue that a KAC is less ideal than a mil-spec PSA, for one very very simple reason: presence of proprietary parts.

That’s by no means a negative if you have prepared adequately and have spares on hand; but if you need to affect repairs and only have what you can find, then at least the PSA can be repaired with parts from nearly any AR, unlike the KAC (depending on the failed component)

the same comment generally applies to any rifle not an AR or AK. Have spares of your critical items if you plan to rely on it.

This is what ultimately put me off about the KAC, and why I didn't buy one years ago. In retrospect, not sure whether I made the smarter move or not. But oh well.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I’ll put on the fire suit and actually argue that a KAC is less ideal than a mil-spec PSA, for one very very simple reason: presence of proprietary parts.

That’s by no means a negative if you have prepared adequately and have spares on hand; but if you need to affect repairs and only have what you can find, then at least the PSA can be repaired with parts from nearly any AR, unlike the KAC (depending on the failed component)

the same comment generally applies to any rifle not an AR or AK. Have spares of your critical items if you plan to rely on it.

This has been debated and argued for over a decade and proven to be a non issue.

Name one Proprietary part on a KAC gun that will fail. I will wait.

You cant even own a SR15 in Maryland, but thank you for your knowledge dump.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Oh snap, now all the mil cosplay folks are going to get their digicamo panties in a wad

Not quite. The same ignorant people who don't know what they are talking about will continue to run their mouth about subjects they don't even begin to understand.

There is so much ignorance in this thread it should be deleted entirely to prevent anyone from accidentally thinking they could learn something here.

 

[TurboTrout]

Not quite. The same ignorant people who don't know what they are talking about will continue to run their mouth about subjects they don't even begin to understand.

There is so much ignorance in this thread it should be deleted entirely to prevent anyone from accidentally thinking they could learn something here.

Why is it the folks who call others “ignorant” can never articulate their point?

 

[Makinchips208]

Forget all the aforementioned brands and nonsense.
You guys just wait till Glock comes out with a carbine! It will be perfect!

 

[WindstormSCR]

This has been debated and argued for over a decade and proven to be a non issue.

Name one Proprietary part on a KAC gun that will fail. I will wait.

You cant even own a SR15 in Maryland, but thank you for your knowledge dump.

Any of them can, the question is when.

there is no modern process that can 100% guarantee a proper metal grain structure with no imperfections, with the sole exception of SLM metal printed components.

that means a failure is likely in two places: the first ~500 rounds, or when the rifle has been used up; and that assumes that KAC uses X-ray diffraction/ ultrasonic grain inspection on EVERY proprietary part, which we know is not the case.

I don’t need to own one to make observations using reasoned logic and basic engineering and metallurgy.

and you would be incorrect about Maryland. the fact the bolt and barrel extension are dimensionally different and not interchangable is sufficient to render it not a copy under the letter of the law, no one to my knowledge has pressed the issue with MSP yet. same as piston ARs and alternate calibers are not considered copies (the MSP curated list is non-binding and rife with errors, see court proceedings with Engage Armament]

Oh snap, now all the mil cosplay folks are going to get their digicamo panties in a wad

I mean, I did say its a non-issue if you keep spares. Just means more forethought required.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Forget all the aforementioned brands and nonsense.
You guys just wait till Glock comes out with a carbine! It will be perfect!

But I don't like the ejecting brass from a carbine with plastic sights hitting me in the face

 

[MarshallDodge]

Any of them can, the question is when.

there is no modern process that can 100% guarantee a proper metal grain structure with no imperfections, with the sole exception of SLM metal printed components.

that means a failure is likely in two places: the first ~500 rounds, or when the rifle has been used up; and that assumes that KAC uses X-ray diffraction/ ultrasonic grain inspection on EVERY proprietary part, which we know is not the case.

I don’t need to own one to make observations using reasoned logic and basic engineering and metallurgy.

and you would be incorrect about Maryland. the fact the bolt and barrel extension are dimensionally different and not interchangable is sufficient to render it not a copy under the letter of the law, no one to my knowledge has pressed the issue with MSP yet. same as piston ARs and alternate calibers are not considered copies (the MSP curated list is non-binding and rife with errors, see court proceedings with Engage Armament]


I mean, I did say its a non-issue if you keep spares. Just means more forethought required.

Well KAC must do a good job because I don't know of one instance of their E3 bolt failing.

 

[banzi]

This

Even comparing a bolt release from BAD vs a generic cheap parts kit, it’s very obvious the difference in quality.

Vs

Can you say "MIM"

 

[WindstormSCR]

Well KAC must do a good job because I don't know of one instance of their E3 bolt failing.

not saying they don’t do a good job, they absolutely do. I’m just arguing they’re not immune to it, as I have heard and in one case seen at least three bolt failures, though one was due to raw round count on a full auto AR lower

also mr. murphy is a dick and looks for the worst times to bend your ass over if you don’t come prepared.

 

[Jsp556]

Just for shits and grins, how about we include the least expensive hand gun you’d trust your life to? Lol

 

[carbonbased]

Just for shits and grins, how about we include the least expensive hand gun you’d trust your life to? Lol

$0 (i got hands of death brah)

 

[Jsp556]

Just wanting to see if people trusting their lives to budget ar’s apply the same standards to handguns.

 

[WindstormSCR]

Just wanting to see if people trusting their lives to budget ar’s apply the same standards to handguns.

for most folks the price point of affordability ends up being about the same, so a decent standard glock is within reach, if not something a little better in the $650 range.

price floor basically stays the same, but Rifles climb in price much faster as you go up the ladder.

 

[long range sponge]

but spending more money doesnt necessarily mean you are buying more reliability

As a broad statement this is true. I am not one to say that a DB15 is equal to or better than a LMT or KAC. Inversely, no brand is immune to parts failure. Spending more should and usually does buy a LIKELIHOOD of higher reliability/performance. At some level you reach a point of diminishing returns. Is a $2500 MARS-L of higher quality than a B.A.D. Workhorse? I would say yes. Is a Workhorse a terrible rifle? I would say no. Each individual has to decide for themselves what they want. Would they rather spend less on the rifle to afford more ammo?? Spend more on the rifle in an effort to POSSIBLY gain higher quality but maybe not have as much $ for ammo?? Or are they just baller and buy whatever the fuck they want whenever they want and have a shit ton left to burn feeding it?? That's how I took this thread to be originally geared. Seems to have gone off the rails a touch but it is what it is.

Carry on ladies.

 

[MarshallDodge]

not saying they don’t do a good job, they absolutely do. I’m just arguing they’re not immune to it, as I have heard and in one case seen at least three bolt failures, though one was due to raw round count on a full auto AR lower

Sure you have

 

[WindstormSCR]

Sure you have

yes, I have, partly because of being curious what it looks like when one does actually fail. amazing how if you go looking for information you can usually find what you're after.

That being said, it is considerably more rare than the same from other manufacturers using mil-spec designs, which speaks to both the design being effective and a good QC process.

the point I have been trying to make being: no mechanical system is immune to failure.

accepting that instead of stuffing your head into the sand means you can plan for it, source a couple spare parts, stuff them in a small bag, and if anything happens you're still in business.

 

[Makinchips208]

How do you protect spare AR parts from EMP attack?

 

[RobbinsHGray]

Really. Trust your life. Wow. And this is a non-military question. So what do I think is going to happen. The value of my life exceeds my bank account. The carbine really. Training practice training rounds down range rounds in stages. And we haven’t even begun to discuss body armor night vision thermal. What is the threat. If you perceive more than one, there is more than one answer. Equip for the threat. I digress because obviously there is more than one threat. So are you asking for a multipurpose tool at the minimal cost when your life is on the line. My experience with multipurpose tools is they don’t do any one thing very well. Also, absent the testosterone, my recollection of the data today Is that the most likely threat is at night and in your house. I chose a very reliable semi automatic 9 mm pistol with a laser. Locked in a mechanical box under my bed.

 

[MadDuner]

Really. Trust your life. Wow. And this is a non-military question. So what do I think is going to happen. The value of my life exceeds my bank account. The carbine really. Training practice training rounds down range rounds in stages. And we haven’t even begun to discuss body armor night vision thermal. What is the threat. If you perceive more than one, there is more than one answer. Equip for the threat. I digress because obviously there is more than one threat. So are you asking for a multipurpose tool at the minimal cost when your life is on the line. My experience with multipurpose tools is they don’t do any one thing very well. Also, absent the testosterone, my recollection of the data today Is that the most likely threat is at night and in your house. I chose a very reliable semi automatic 9 mm pistol with a laser. Locked in a mechanical box under my bed.

You've never heard of the Zombie Apocalypse?

 

[Steve_In_29]

Really. Trust your life. Wow. And this is a non-military question. So what do I think is going to happen. The value of my life exceeds my bank account. The carbine really. Training practice training rounds down range rounds in stages. And we haven’t even begun to discuss body armor night vision thermal. What is the threat. If you perceive more than one, there is more than one answer. Equip for the threat. I digress because obviously there is more than one threat. So are you asking for a multipurpose tool at the minimal cost when your life is on the line. My experience with multipurpose tools is they don’t do any one thing very well. Also, absent the testosterone, my recollection of the data today Is that the most likely threat is at night and in your house. I chose a very reliable semi automatic 9 mm pistol with a laser. Locked in a mechanical box under my bed.

Not going to do you much good when you wake up to find them standing over you.

Also how are your fine motor skills working to open that locked box when you are so scared you're pissing yourself?

 

[bigjake83]

Not going to do you much good when you wake up to find them standing over you.

Also how are your fine motor skills working to open that locked box when you are so scared you're pissing yourself?

If you're fiddling with a lock box or have somebody standing over you, you've done fucked up anyway.

Home defense starts waaay before you reach for a firearm.

 

[BCP]

Just for shits and grins, how about we include the least expensive hand gun you’d trust your life to? Lol

250$ Rossi ftw

OR

the 250$ Taurus in my truck

long live the Saturday Night Special

 

[Steve_In_29]

If you're fiddling with a lock box or have somebody standing over you, you've done fucked up anyway.

Home defense starts waaay before you reach for a firearm.

Yes it does but lots don't think much past, I have a pistol in a lockbox. And depending on where they live the first sign of needing that locked up pistol could be the sound of their front door being kicked in as it wakes them up.