Lee Collet Die effect on headspace

[Claluja]

LCD, in my press, causes a slight increase in headspace and a slight lengthening of the brass. .308 brass, headspace reading increases by about .0005-.0010 due to LCD, pretty consistently.

Anyone using body die and trimming, both after the LCD due to these effects? I've been bumping back a little extra with body die before LCD to compensate, and trimming after LCD. Any advantage to using the LCD before the body die?

 

[XLR308]

That's all most all I used in 308win, would get 3-4 firings with a book max of AR-COMP under a 178amax at 2650fps before needing to bump the shoulders back to eliminate any resistance on bolt lift after firing.
Never had an issue with them in 243win or 300wm either.

 

[Ryridesmotox]

Resizing in general usually lengthens the case overall. The brass we are moving has to go somewhere. I only size with the collet die anymore. I can skip the lube step and the 2nd cleaning to get the lube off (just my process while full length sizing). Loading is something I have to do to go shooting. I dont overly enjoy it like some, mildly sadistic, people might lol.

Just my opinion here so take it with some salt as usual. Generally I dont measure a whole lot, maybe a couple cases out of 100 just to make sure I'm getting enough bump on the shoulder. So yesterday, if memory serves, I was getting my .002 bump on the shoulder and growing by about .0004 I think. I really don't keep good track of stuff like that, because I've found it doesnt matter a whole lot tbh. As long as I'm getting the shoulder bumped enough, I'll let the neck lengthen until I get difficulty chambering, then I'll trim em back a little. Longer necks seem to help with runout for me, at least in my experience.

I usually see a pretty consistent bump on the shoulder of .002. Not sure why yours seems to be growing at the shoulder to lengthen headspace. Are you measuring to the datum with a sinclair or hornady comparator on a caliper? Maybe set the die up again and double check it's working properly. Use a little aeroshell on the outside of the collet where it interacts with the die body. For mine, it touches the shell holder and I go in another 1&3/4 ish turn. I'll go in a bit more if I want more kiss on the shoulder.

I'm really only reloading 308 for precision right now. Using jagemann brass, with 175gr noslers, I'm getting about .75 moa with just collet sizing and seating with a forester micrometer die. I shot a 10 shot group, 9 actually, on my last outing and got a hair under .75 MOA. I'll usually do that in the middle of practice at the range, after the barrel is good n warm, and after I'm tired... I mean calm. The reason it was a 9 shot group was because I kinda forgot to dial back to zero after going out to like 600 yards, so I hit like 5 mils high rofl.

 

[Mordamer]

Sounds like you are doing 2 steps when you could just get a high quality full length die, set it up correctly, and accomplish the same thing in less time.

 

[Steel head]

I use a lee collet.
Can’t say I ever noticed it changing head space.
But then even though I run my head space tight and minimally bump the shoulder down with a body die every fourth loading I never had issues so I don’t go looking for them.

 

[yej0001]

I do this: collet sizing the cases 3-4 times until i start getting a tight bolt, then I full length size this batch once. Works well.

 

[mcfred]

On my .223 Rem (bolt gun) I've never noticed any headspace change when using a LCD. In fact I've got 12 reloads on a set of 100 (69smk@3150fps, 24"bbl), have yet to trim them and only have full-length sized them once when I swapped barrels that was chambered with a different reamer. They average 1.760" case length now and are about due for their first trim. They are getting longer, just not quickly. I believe I am running them harder than the SAAMI pressure but they feed and eject like new despite the lack of FL sizing and reload count. FWIW I anneal them every 3-4 reloads.

 

[702lineman]

I've used a LCD for years with great sucess. Are you using it correctly? I'm guessing you know that you do not cam the press over, right? Also do you keep it cleaned out?

 

[Claluja]

I use a lee collet.
Can’t say I ever noticed it changing head space.
But then even though I run my head space tight and minimally bump the shoulder down with a body die every fourth loading I never had issues so I don’t go looking for them.

Yeah, at least for me, the LCD won't change headspace if I don't bump the shoulder, or if I use the LCD before bumping the shoulder (only happens if I use the LCD AFTER bumping the shoulder, and probably not enough to worry about).

This is why I'm probably going to start using the LCD before shoulder bumping with a body die - just wanted to see if anyone else was doing that.

 

[FLIGHT762]

This is why I'm probably going to start using the LCD before shoulder bumping with a body die - just wanted to see if anyone else was doing that.

I've been doing the Lee Collet first and then the F/L body die for several years. I think I read an article from German Salizar years ago that recommended this.

 

[supercorndogs]

I've used a LCD for years with great sucess. Are you using it correctly? I'm guessing you know that you do not cam the press over, right? Also do you keep it cleaned out?

I have never managed consistent neck tension with the collet die, unless I cam over just a little on it.

 

[gigamortis]

On the competition shell holder set, all of the shell holder overall height dimensions will be the same. The difference between the sizes is the depth of the pocket where your brass head bears against. That way, a +.010" holder will have your brass sitting .010" lower in the holder than it would be sitting in the bottom of a standard shell holder. The whole concept of the competition shell holders is that repeatable hard stop contact can be made with the top edge of the shell holder to the bottom of your sizing die. That way, you get repeatable shoulder bump dimensions regardless of lube variations, press flex, etc.

As far as the LCD lengthening the overall dimension of my brass, I see about .001" to .002" lengthening when using mine. If you are pushing brass to achieve a certain neck dimension, the displaced brass has to go somewhere.

 

[8up]

A quick check to see if your collect die is out of spec, if you have a muzzle shim that is .002 or .003 thick that fits the 5/8x24 muzzle, place it on top of your shell holder. Then run your brass through the collect die sizing process. Measure the headspace then. That should tell you what the problem is.

Either way, it would require a new collect die, unless you want to keep messing around with a shim each time you run brass through the die.

My process is, run brass through body die first. Do all the trimming and debur I need to do next. Always the last step I do to anything with the brass is collect size the neck since it is the last area of neck, bullet, bore alignment.

My run out is usually .001" consistently.

 

[918v]

Sounds like you are doing 2 steps when you could just get a high quality full length die, set it up correctly, and accomplish the same thing in less time.

You cannot.

 

[918v]

I have never managed consistent neck tension with the collet die, unless I cam over just a little on it.

If you adjust the die so that the press comes to a hard stop when the case neck walls bottom out against the decaping rod, then you will have consistent neck tension without camming over.

 

[supercorndogs]

If you adjust the die so that the press comes to a hard stop when the case neck walls bottom out against the decaping rod, then you will have consistent neck tension without camming over.

Me experience is that attempting to set up the die this way has alway led to brass in a lot that you can push the bullets in by hand and some that have proper neck tension. I tried it for a while when I first read that one should never cam over on their collet die, after my dad blew the top out of one. After a few messed up batches I went back to my old way of slightly camming over, and have never broken a die or had a problem with that method.

I rarely use a collet die anymore. I just FL everything every time but 300WM now.

 

[clcustom1911]

I have never managed consistent neck tension with the collet die, unless I cam over just a little on it.

You're supposed to cam over just a hair to cause the collet to squeeze tight enough around the case neck to the mandrel.

I've had no issues using my LCD on Lee, Dillon, RCBS, or Hornady presses.


Just sayin'

 

[supercorndogs]

You're supposed to cam over just a hair to cause the collet to squeeze tight enough around the case neck to the mandrel.

I've had no issues using my LCD on Lee, Dillon, RCBS, or Hornady presses.


Just sayin'

I am pretty sure the instructions that come with die warn not to cam over on it at all. My Lee press would not cam over and i never had any luck using a collet die in it.

 

[clcustom1911]

Lee presses aren't designed to cam over. Dillon and others are.

 

[XLR308]

I am pretty sure the instructions that come with die warn not to cam over on it at all. My Lee press would not cam over and i never had any luck using a collet die in it.

I believe you are 100% correct on that advice.
Just going off of memory I believe the instructions state that applying roughly 25lbs of force without cam over is the proper technique and I allways rotated the case 180° and repeated the process with excellent results.

 

[Bender830]

I believe you are 100% correct on that advice.
Just going off of memory I believe the instructions state that applying roughly 25lbs of force without cam over is the proper technique and I allways rotated the case 180° and repeated the process with excellent results.

I thought you were supposed to rotate it some intermediary step outside of 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 so that the collets come down on different parts of the neck to press the ridges between the collet fingers down?
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/10/how-to-neck-size-cases-with-lee-collet-die/

 

[XLR308]

I thought you were supposed to rotate it some intermediary step outside of 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 so that the collets come down on different parts of the neck to press the ridges between the collet fingers down?
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/10/how-to-neck-size-cases-with-lee-collet-die/

Just stating what my preferred process has been and what has worked extremely well for me.
I mainly used the collet die in 308win, with Lapua Palma brass that I turned all the necks to .014" and was very consistent with an average of .00- .0015" of run out across the 200 cases I used with a few that would consistently average .003-.004" that I used for foulers.

 

[918v]

Me experience is that attempting to set up the die this way has alway led to brass in a lot that you can push the bullets in by hand and some that have proper neck tension. I tried it for a while when I first read that one should never cam over on their collet die, after my dad blew the top out of one. After a few messed up batches I went back to my old way of slightly camming over, and have never broken a die or had a problem with that method.

I rarely use a collet die anymore. I just FL everything every time but 300WM now.

I don’t have neck tension issues. Maybe you adjusted the die so the press handle sat too high and you didn’t have enough leverage.

 

[supercorndogs]

I don’t have neck tension issues. Maybe you adjusted the die so the press handle sat too high and you didn’t have enough leverage.

Maybe I did. I will continue to use the method that has proven reliable for me.

 

[918v]

And I shall continue to use the superior method.

 

[supercorndogs]

Cool story bro. Please give me measure of your methods superiority. Elitism among Lee collet die users. Now thats fucking funny.

clcustom1911 loves your comment and he is telling me I am supposed to cam over on it. You are telling me not camming over is a "superior method." Sometimes this place is clown show.

 

[spife7980]

 

[clcustom1911]

Cool story bro. Please give me measure of your methods superiority. Elitism among Lee collet die users. Now thats fucking funny.

clcustom1911 loves your comment and he is telling me I am supposed to cam over on it. You are telling me not camming over is a "superior method." Sometimes this place is clown show.

I said cam over because that how my Dillon press operates. When I use the die on my Lee presses, which don't cam over, I was setting the die so it required 20-30 pounds of downward force to cause the ram to bottom out.

You're doing something wrong in your setup of the die because apparently everyone in this thread can use with good results except you. Good luck man.

 

[918v]

Wha? R u talking to me? I never said that caming over didn’t work for me. Superior dog said that not caming over didn’t work for him. Don’t put words in my mouth.

 

[918v]

Cool story bro. Please give me measure of your methods superiority. Elitism among Lee collet die users. Now thats fucking funny.

clcustom1911 loves your comment and he is telling me I am supposed to cam over on it. You are telling me not camming over is a "superior method." Sometimes this place is clown show.

LCND is Richard Lee’s greatest invention and the best neck sizer design ever.

 

[clcustom1911]

Wha? R u talking to me? I never said that caming over didn’t work for me. Superior dog said that not caming over didn’t work for him. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Not directed towards you. It was toward SuperCornDogs.

 

[918v]

Oh, sorry. No comprende.

 

[supercorndogs]

I said cam over because that how my Dillon press operates. When I use the die on my Lee presses, which don't cam over, I was setting the die so it required 20-30 pounds of downward force to cause the ram to bottom out.

You're doing something wrong in your setup of the die because apparently everyone in this thread can use with good results except you. Good luck man.

"Cant use it with good results." Please read! That is not what I said at all.

I have never managed consistent neck tension with the collet die, unless I cam over just a little on it.

 

[mmihailov]

Hi folks, sorry for my English, is not good. When i run LCD, size of head space in my brass decreases by 0.004. Cal.is 308, the press is RCBS,
I do everything according to the instructions of the manual. I tried whit different shel hollder-Lee, Sinclair, Redding competition shellholder but the result is the same. Where am I wrong?

 

[918v]

How do you define headspace?

 

[Claluja]

Hi folks, sorry for my English, is not good. When i run LCD, size of head space in my brass decreases by 0.004. Cal.is 308, the press is RCBS,
I do everything according to the instructions of the manual. I tried whit different shel hollder-Lee, Sinclair, Redding competition shellholder but the result is the same. Where am I wrong?

Try using the LCD BEFORE a body die (not after), and see if that changes anything. (To the extent you are not already doing this . . . ).

 

[Deleted member 10043]

LCD, in my press, causes a slight increase in headspace and a slight lengthening of the brass. .308 brass, headspace reading increases by about .0005-.0010 due to LCD, pretty consistently.

Anyone using body die and trimming, both after the LCD due to these effects? I've been bumping back a little extra with body die before LCD to compensate, and trimming after LCD. Any advantage to using the LCD before the body die?

That is so immaterial. You know, when you look at the case specs you will see you can trim your cases more than you think. If you're trimming to max length to begin with you are just creating more work for yourself. Like others have said the shoulder will tighten up after a few firings. There is nothing out of the ordinary here. The whole point of the LCD is to reduce run out. Neck size, turn the case about a quarter of a turn, and neck size again. There is nothing wrong with Lee stuff to begin with but the only reason their LCD shows up here is because of the run out cure without having to waste time with yet another gauge.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Hi folks, sorry for my English, is not good. When i run LCD, size of head space in my brass decreases by 0.004. Cal.is 308, the press is RCBS,
I do everything according to the instructions of the manual. I tried whit different shel hollder-Lee, Sinclair, Redding competition shellholder but the result is the same. Where am I wrong?

Instead of turning the die one full revolution when setting it up use 1/2 turn. Also, it only takes 20 lbs of pressure when sizing. You're getting close to collapsing the case or ruining the LCD. The top is designed to destroy itself with too much pressure. Especially common when sizing cases with nice sloping shoulders.

 

[mmihailov]

How do you define headspace?

i measure with Sinclair Bullet Comparator and the difference between fired case and sizing case whit LCD is 0.04 and case growing whit 0,04 and it has to be cut.

 

[mmihailov]

Try using the LCD BEFORE a body die (not after), and see if that changes anything. (To the extent you are not already doing this . . . ).

i don't us body die, only LCD

 

[918v]

i measure with Sinclair Bullet Comparator and the difference between fired case and sizing case whit LCD is 0.04 and case growing whit 0,04 and it has to be cut.

Is it .004” or .04mm?

 

[Steel head]

i don't us body die, only LCD

what do you use to size the body and bump the shoulder back?

 

[mmihailov]

Is it .004” or .04mm?

It's .004”=0.10 mm

 

[mmihailov]

what do you use to size the body and bump the shoulder back?

Nothing, only LCD and shoulder back every time

 

[Steel head]

Nothing, only LCD and shoulder back every time

My l,cd never touches the shoulder nor is it designed to.

After4 firings with only the LCD I always anneal and use use a body die to bump shoulder back and squeeze sides down a bit.

unless you like beating your bolt closed.

 

[918v]

It's .004”=0.10 mm

Are you annealing the case prior to sizing?

 

[mmihailov]

Are you annealing the case prior to sizing?

I tried whit annealing cases, cases for one shot the result is the same

 

[918v]

Your collet is touching the shoulder, then.

 

[918v]

Place a shim between the shell holder and the die during sizing. That will keep the collet off the shoulder.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I like the LCD and the Redding body only die.
If you would LIKE to turn it and size more than once turn it in thirds, light press first then normal the next press. I pause to allow brass to relax under pressure. Seems to reduce spring back.
Just do everything the same, over and over.
BUY a couple extra mandrels and polish to the diameter that gives you the neck tension you desire.
The LCD does NOT slide clean the inside of the neck.
Decide if you want clean and/or lubed necks for seating.
I brush before the LCD and Mica bullet bases before seating.