Lee Collet Dies?

#51
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

I did an experiment with my .22-250's a few years ago. I compared a Lee collet to a Redding bushing die. I had two .22-250's with .256" and .250" necks. The tight necked rifle allowed the case to expand just .002" while the factory chamber allowed the necks to expand .006".

Here's what I found:

There was no difference in concentricity between the Lee and Redding dies as far as the tight necked chamber was concerned.

There was a huge difference, however, in the factory chambered rifle. Fired cases had .0005" runout at the case mouth, so the chamber was fine. Ammo assembled using the Lee collet die averaged .0015" TIR while ammo made using the Redding bushing die averaged .004".

I found this interesting, so I bought a bunch of bushings in .001" increments from .249" to .256". I sized the cases in .001" increments and measured runout at the casemouth. I found that runout remained about .001" as long as the case necks were not being sized more than .002". Riunout at the casemouth translates into runout at the bullet ogjive.

In my opinion, bushing dies work the brass more, stress the brass more, and cause more runout than collet dies.
 
#52
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

Here's my bad Lee experience.

I got a Lee collet die recently. Before I used it, I took the mandrel out and inspected the die interior. The collet slotting had been cut WAAAY off center, and there were burrs at the slots. Roundness appeared suspect, but that might have been the burrs playing tricks on my eyes.

I sent the die back to Lee. The replacement die they sent looked identical to the one I returned. A day later, I received another replacement die (don't ask me why) and that one has the same problem. It's pictured below. It appears that Lee's tooling and their QC are not well-indicated.

Photo05201035_1.jpg


It's been about a week, and I haven't dealt with this since. Whaddya think I should do?
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#53
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

I agree 100% with the post above. Lee "quality" is not there.

However, the idea/concept behind the collet die is great. When I first started reloading (7mm-08) I bought the a set of Lee dies and was disappointed at all the burrs and crappy machining. There were chips and crud inside the dies. The threads on the aluminum seating knob were galled, right from the factory (I never used the seating die)

I spent a lot of time on the collet die, smoothing the machine marks and removing burrs until it functioned smoothly, but I still got vertical marks on the necks. Since I needed a seating die, I bought a FL RCBS set that has worked perfectly since then.

My $.02 is this: buy a set of RCBS, Forster, or Redding dies and don't look back.
 
#54
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

The difference between Lee's excellant designs and their implimentation can be irratating but it can usually can be cleaned up so I do it. I use Forster seaters mostly but Lee's Dead Length seaters can also be cleaned up to work very well.

The degree of off-centered slotting the photo shows makes no difference at all to the way the collet will work; it's okay even tho it's not pretty

The way a collet works insures there will be four "vertical marks" on the exterior of the necks, there is no way to avoid that. BUT, again, it makes no difference to the accuracy. The marks can be minimized by turning the case slighly and sizing again but it's really not needed.
 
#55
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

^^ That's good to hear.
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It makes sense that if the mandrel is working, the asymmetrical collet won't make a difference to the internal neck size.

But since the crappy burrs still bug me, I'm going to put one of these dies on the lathe and see if I can't clean them up. Luckily I now have a sacrificial die. I can't figure out a way to clean up the collet, so I guess the sloppy slotting stays.

I wish certain patented technologies would be more frequently licensed to companies who would make the most of it. Imagine Forster or Redding quality collet dies. Imagine Remington 700s with spiralock barrel/receiver threading.
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#56
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

I would do some testing of the die in the pic before assuming it won't make a difference, were I using it.
The collet will go up straight but it will be forcing the mandrel off to one side, which will be countered by the mandrels point that sticks through the flash-hole in the case. Exactly what this deflection winds up effecting can only be guessed at.

It very well could cause problems, and should be evaluated by the user.
 
#57
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

eek.gif
Good point. The two bigger jaws would would bend the mandrel towards the small jaws.

This week I'll size up a case, pop it in a 5c collet, and see if the neck indicates off center in relation to its orientation in the die.

To the folks who own collet dies: I'd be interested to know how your collets look on the inside. Are they centered or crappy like both of mine?
confused.gif
 
#60
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

I take the Lee Collet Die apart.
I put the collet in the lathe, spin it, rub fine emery cloth on it to polish it.
I put the collar in the lathe, spin it, rub fine emery cloth on it to polish it.
I put a little motor oil on the collet - collar junction.
I put the Die back together.
It then runs smoother.
 
#61
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

"The two bigger jaws would would bend the mandrel towards the small jaws."

I don't think so. All of the jaws squeeze the neck towards the mandrel simultaneously.

Only the forcing cone of the collet needs be polished, the rest doesn't matter. I have used a lathe turned wooden dowel to spin the inner (body) cone smoother. I simply push the inner sleeve onto a dowel "mandrel" and lathe smooth the cone with a fine cut file and emery cloth.

But all that just makes it nicer, actually the dies work well as they are most of the time.
 
#62
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

That would depend on a few things such as how much play there is between the mandrel and the rest of the die........
Also, without measuring the die components we don't know if the hole is centered in the collet, or if the radial cuts are centered in the collet, or that niether is centered on the collet. Possible error in sizing would be based on the interaction of all of these errors.

The collet will center up on the forcing cone, but lack of play in the mandrel, lack of play between the forcing cone and the die body, and unkown concentricity of the collet could add up to some error.

In my uneducated opinion.
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#63
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

Rafael: Unfortunately, I don't have an indicator with a long point to check concentricity of the hole.
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I believe I have received 3 dies from a poorly machined batch that was released recently. I'd bet my situation is "the norm" for recent production .223 Remington collet dies, and that this defect may go undetected by many reloaders.

Fuzzball: how do you determine the OD of the wooden dowel you use to finish your dies? I plan on turning an aluminum "lapping bar" to do this, but I don't know what dimension to turn. I was about to guess ~0.001-0.003 smaller than the OD of the neck of new brass.
confused.gif


Once that's taken care of, I want to do a little experiment. Here's my proposal:

I'll clean one die up on the lathe and keep the other as delivered. I'll size up two Lapua cases, one on each die. Then I'll put them in some 5c collets and indicate the neck ODs and IDs. I wish I owned a collet die from a properly machined batch (tits slotting) to include in this experiment.
 
#64
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

I am just a backyard machinist with no formal training, but I can do a pretty good job of identifying the potential problems this die could create. I am falling short on how to test the collet for concentricity, though I would think that it should be tested in a compressed state utilizing the forcing cone and die body and also measuring the concentricity of the mandrel guide.

I hope you figure it out.
 
#66
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Insert Name Here</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree 100% with the post above. Lee "quality" is not there.

However, the idea/concept behind the collet die is great. When I first started reloading (7mm-08) I bought the a set of Lee dies and was disappointed at all the burrs and crappy machining. There were chips and crud inside the dies. The threads on the aluminum seating knob were galled, right from the factory (I never used the seating die)

I spent a lot of time on the collet die, smoothing the machine marks and removing burrs until it functioned smoothly, but I still got vertical marks on the necks. Since I needed a seating die, I bought a FL RCBS set that has worked perfectly since then.

My $.02 is this: buy a set of RCBS, Forster, or Redding dies and don't look back. </div></div>
I have also used a FL Lee die(thousands of rounds) with absolute flawless function.
Lee equipment is at least 80% of what I use to reload with now for 10+ years.I havn't looked back except to say It was an amazing deal for me to buy Lee equipment.
I have NOT experienced any machining/quality problems with my equipment.
Maybe they have made some bad batches or something,but in general there is nothing wrng with there equipment and IMO, most people would be very UN-WISE to overlook Lee equipment,Especially when it comes to getting value.
I have shot many,MANY targets with 1/2 inch groups and better with my Ar15 and 223 Encore pistol over the years while using the same Lee dies and equipment.

For the average reloader,,I think anybody that dismisses or overlooks Lee products does so out of ignorance and realy makes more work and expense for themselves even though they don't realize it.

Of course everything changes For precision reloading with precise match chambers.
That does require special dies that are not readily available by Lee.
Other than that,I find it kind of funny when people trash Lee equipment mostly just because they have the reputation for low cost reloading.
Low cost must mean its no good
cool.gif
.
Well,,My "no good" reloading equipment has got me to 800yrds using Magfed ammo in my ar15.
600 yrds is MOA and sometimes better with my junk Lee equipment
grin.gif

.Ive reloaded thousands of rounds on my junk challenger press and dies(well I do have a redding body die,and some other NON lee products I admit).

Maybe Lee could be having a bad spell,but There equipment has been the best deal I have ever had in my life so far.
No complaints here
wink.gif
 
#67
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

I have suggested Lee for beginners many times in the past, but I assume noone in this thread remembers those posts.
laugh.gif
I started with a Lee Anniversary kit long ago, and it was a great way to start. You can spend a whole lot more finding out how to load and discovering what you want from your loading tools if you don't start with Lee.

I have since replaced every tool in the kit but for the priming tool that just broke the other day.....after who knows how many primers. That tool owed me nothing.
laugh.gif


 
#69
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I started with a Lee Anniversary kit long ago, and it was a great way to start. You can spend a whole lot more finding out how to load and discovering what you want from your loading tools if you don't start with Lee.

laugh.gif


</div></div>
Well said.
Thats an absolute fact IMO.
I know I would require much more from my reloading gear if I upped my game and started louding for a precision rifle and chamber(I should say special chamber with tight clearances).
I'm trying to focus more on my shooting ability knowing that my rifle and reloading equipment are easily capable of my current goal of inside MOA.
There will probably be a day when specialized equipment is a must.
Not currently though..My current gear is more than up to the task
grin.gif

BTW,,My PPM throws wicked precise charges with my H4895.
Its all I use that measure for and it blows my mind what that cheap measure is capable of.I also use the hand primer and WOULD NOT do it any other way.
Pocket cleaner???
Yup!!
Pilot Trimmer with dedicated(Foot pedal modified) power drill???
yup!!
cheap chamfer/deburring tool???
Yup!!
YUP!! YUP!!!
lol
grin.gif
.

Great deals and Ive only looked back with joy and happiness I got into reloading cheap and easy without headaches .
Like You said Rafael,
You learn as you go and if you do TRULY need something else,You have no regrets for the little you purchased buying Lee.
I also feel most people don't realize how easy Lee has made it to get into reloading and get going effectively with great reloads from the start.
They design there equipment to work with ease and get you reloading quick and safe with no nonsense.
Simple and Safe is critical for a new reloader IMO.
Oh and I remember,along with recognising Winchester69,s name along with many others.
I havn't been on in a while and I'm a nobody but I have enjoyed past conversations and learned a lot from this site and people in it
wink.gif
 
#70
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stringer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> To the folks who own collet dies: I'd be interested to know how your collets look on the inside. Are they centered or crappy like both of mine?
confused.gif
</div></div>

My 308 and Hornet collet dies are perfect. My 22-250 collet die is like yours, but without burrs.

Why don't you try it out and see how it works. Make a few dummy rounds and spin them against an indicator?
 
#71
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

I would clean out the slots, 3/4 diamond cutoff wheel?
then compress the collet fingers and ream or bore the hole to the OD of sized brass minus a few thousandence of an inch
 
#72
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

I can't get mine apart. I screw the top off and the mandrel slides out but there appears to be a washer or something in threads that the top threaded into. I pressed it up a bit, but I was fearful I might screww up the threads or the collet so I back off. Any ideas ? Thanks
 
#74
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

"Fuzzball: how do you determine the OD of the wooden dowel you use to finish your dies?"

Stringer, I wasn't clear on how I use that dowel. I don't bother to lap the necks, they seem to be smooth enough for me. ALL I lap is the forcing cone faces, both sides.

I turn a 3/4" dowel to match the shoulder angle of the cone. Then I slot the dowel (hack saw) and slip a bit of emery cloth into the slot so I can spin it to smooth and, sometimes, even polish the female cone section. Sorta crude but it's fast and works as well as needed.

I slip the inner, sliding part of the die onto a snug dowel that will serve as a mandrel (my 9" SB lathe is too small to have 5C or larger collets!) It is then spun fairly fast so I can file/sand/polish the male part of the cone as needed.

All this work does is smooth the mating cone surfaces so they slide more freely, without the 'gritty' feeling.

Nothing more seems helpful but a snugly fitted dowel and a bit of lapping compond to smooth the neck sure can't hurt! I think I would put the sliding sleeve on the mandrel and close the collet's fingers with several wraps of rubber band before lapping the neck hole.

The exact diameter of a wooden neck lap shouldn't be critical, just make it a snug fit in the closed collet. The wood itself can easily hold your lapping compound well enough to smooth the collet's jaws on a lathe. I'd spin the collet/sleeve while holding a maybe 6" or longer lapping dowel in the tailstock drill chuck to maintain alignment. ?
 
#76
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

I have not bought a new Lee collet die for some years so it is dissapointing to see faulty manufacture of what is their best die design .
I only use the collet neck sizer on certain cartridges no other Lee die.
You should contact Lee directly and demand a new die that has been fully checked before sending .
 
#78
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

Hello Pete E

Yes, they will build you a custom die. Go to their website for detailed info. Had one build for 6MM BR. Had it done last summer, don't remember all the details but it wasn't very expensive. Turn around time was about 2 months. Sent in 3 fired cases and a small assortment of bullets I had plan to use (ordered the seater die also). I was a bit disappointed with the results. The depriming pin on the mandrel was oversize. Lapua brass has a odd,sligthly, smaller flash hole. Yet they claimed that they tested the set before shipping. How the hell they got that pin through the flash hole is beyond me, I couldn't. But, that can be polished down. Also, the mandrel was sligthly undersize by one thousand. Normally the mandrel is .001 under bullet size, this was .002. I know alot of people polish them down anyways, but I would have liked the option. To tell you the truth I haven't even used the set yet. Ending up using Wilson hand dies. But I have used them ( LEE ) for .243 and .308 calibers and found them to work very well. Very low run out. Once you know all the tricks I think you may be very pleased. Well worth the try.
 
#79
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

I am now polishing the Lee collet dies:
a) collet
b) collar
c) mandrel/ decapping pin

If Redding or Wilson had the patent, I would not need to polish these parts, but they would cost 2 or 3 times as much.
 
#80
Re: Lee Collet Dies?

"the guy who debated me endlessly on how screwed up my reloading process was, only to meet him months later and find out he is 17yrs old and never pulled the handle of a press in his life."

I often suspect that the loudest and most instant opinions come from folks with the least experience. Old hands usually have learned there are few absolute "facts" in reloading and that there are many ways - and brand of tools - to skin any reloading cat.
 
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