Advanced Marksmanship Left Handed Shooter on Right Handed Gun

[Mike4837]

Ok boys and girls, I'm looking for the finer points of shooting a right handed action as a left handed shooter. Specifically, I'm talking about the effect of taking the support hand(right) off the rear support/bag to run the action.

What I'm noticing is that my groups are generally about 1/4 moa in vertical spread, but the horizontal spread is greater, generally 3/4 moa. I realize there are other factors that could cause horizontal spread, but I'm noticing that every time I run the action I have to rebuild my position because I lose my rear support.

This is an issued rifle and my personal guns are either left handed or semi autos so I've never paid much attention to this. Any ideas on how to mitigate the issue of losing my position? Weapon info below. As a reminder, it's an issued weapon. I'm limited to an extent on gear.


Rifle: FN SPR A5m .308
Optic: Vortex Viper PST 4-16 Gen I
Ammo: Hornady TAP 168gr ELDm
Bipod: MDT Ckye pod with sling stud mount and spiked feet
Rear Bag: Waxed Canvass Gamechanger with GitLite fill
Suppressor: YHM Phantom .30 cal


Still reading? Well, as background info, I struggled for a while to keep the groups from vertical "surprises". Some people call them "fliers" but I don't like that term. I was originally given a non-canting Harris bipod, but I recently switched to the Ckye Pod which seems to have cleaned that up. My personal rifles are an AI AT and Seekins SP10, and I would generally consider myself to be a 1 to 1/2 MOA shooter. Honestly, I rarely shoot anything tighter than that and consider a 1/2 group to be a good day. But when I first got this rifle I was happy to shoot 1 MOA. 1 1/2 MOA was not uncommon. I've been gradually refining things and eliminating issues like rifle setup etc. Just trying to be consistent with this gun.

Finally, if you want to tell me that I just suck and need to work harder that's fine too. I accept that this rifle shoots better than I do. Just looking for insight and I noticed a difference based on the action side and my left handed shooting.

 

[clcustom1911]

I shot right handed bolt guns for many moons. It sucks in the prone. Pretty much every other position its awesome though. Shooting from a barricade is cool to keep your master grip and just run the bolt with your right hand.

As far as building position in the prone, I would just take that extra few seconds and make sure everything is set, prep for the shot, aim in, close eyes, take breath, open eyes. If my reticle was off target, I would adjust so my natural point of aim is where it needs to be and I'm behind the rifle correctly

Everything else is standard recoil management and making sure the butt of the rifle doesn't slide to the left or right, causing stringing horizontal stringing. Usually for us lefties the butt of the rifle goes left and stringing goes to the right.

I recently did a bunch of machine gun shooting for qualification/accuracy. building a solid position and recoil management is key.

 

[CrispyKC]

What were the cons of trying to shoot right handed? I recently qualified in marksman course that I had to shoot right handed because the rifle was a RH long action. Every time I tried to run the bolt when it was in my left shoulder, the bolt would be hindered by the bridge of my nose.

 

[Mike4837]

What were the cons of trying to shoot right handed? I recently qualified in marksman course that I had to shoot right handed because the rifle was a RH long action. Every time I tried to run the bolt when it was in my left shoulder, the bolt would be hindered by the bridge of my nose.

It’s an issued rifle for my pd sniper team. I’m not going to try to learn to shoot with my other shoulder/hand now. If I get hurt and can’t shoot my pistol like normal they don’t just let me carry right handed. I get to sit at a desk. They’re also not going to buy me a new rifle.
Ultimately, this isn’t crucial for my application since we never get the prone position on a callout. It’s more “academic” if you will.

 

[CrispyKC]

Hmm....maybe try a more firm rear bag to start out to keep the butt higher when you release it.?

 

[Cjwise5]

Hmm....maybe try a more firm rear bag to start out to keep the butt higher when you release it.?

This has some merit if you only shoot from a flat position on a square range. As soon as you have to shoot at any up or down angles though... no bueno. Need a bag with some adjustability. And, it still doesn't keep Wolfhunter from having to remove his hand from the system in order to run the bolt.

 

[Mike4837]

I guess what I'm getting at is more of a technique thing. I just don't see any way around having to rebuild my position in this scenario, but I'm hoping someone else has come up with a solution already. A firmer bag doesn't hurt, but like @Cjwise5 mentioned it's fairly limited in it's practicality and I am not about to carry 50 bags. Maybe I just need a minion to cycle the bolt for me so I don't have to come off the support? ?

 

[j-huskey]

I spent several years on a PD sniper rifle.
Every shot you fire is a first shot, so building your position quickly, each shot shouldn't be any problem. It's what you are supposed to be correctly doing anyway.

That should be the technique you imprint versus depending on a bag/crutch/support to help you do something you need to be able to do without any kind of bag at all.

Dot drills, rebuilding every shot, is much better teaching tool, than expecting a bag to help you group smaller.

Bottom line, your vertical errors are on you, failing to get it right each shot, because you think you need that bag.

The bag is not your friend. Learn to shoot without it.

Our team is a multi-agency team, and one dept had FN rifles. They shot the worst of all the rifles, from day 1. 10 year old PSS rifles outshot them with original barrels.
They have been traded in for AI and those same snipers group sizes shrunk very notably, their dot drills went to 100%.

So, possibly it could be the rifle, not you. Possibly.

Just finished a department training session and the AI rocks. Glad we dont have the FN's any more. Our Hart rebarrelled PSS' shot better than the FN, again, from day 1. Got one Hart barrelled PSS with 8k rounds through it that still shoots better than those now traded FN's.

One of our exercises is weak hand qualification with the rifles. Takes a lot of work to get there, and it's easy to crutch that with a bag, but, the sooner you quit depending on the bag, the better.
jmhe. E, not O.

Best to you.
vr

@Terry Cross

 

[DOA]

I guess what I'm getting at is more of a technique thing. I just don't see any way around having to rebuild my position in this scenario, but I'm hoping someone else has come up with a solution already. A firmer bag doesn't hurt, but like @Cjwise5 mentioned it's fairly limited in it's practicality and I am not about to carry 50 bags. Maybe I just need a minion to cycle the bolt for me so I don't have to come off the support? ?

Aren't that what reserves or cadets for?

 

[CrispyKC]

Maybe a monopod? Might be able to find a way to get a rail on the bottom of a stock to get a monopod on it.

 

[Cjwise5]

@j-huskey (I'm not being argumentative, so don't go that route with this). Please explain how a guy can shoot just as tight groups with no rear support from the prone. I honestly want to learn something new here, so please explain it to me.

 

[j-huskey]

1. Knowing it can be done, and has been done b4 by champion level athletes.
2. Knowing that b4 there were rear bags, the Marine Corps Sniper School taught hooking the support hand thumb in your buttoned collar and using the hand to hold the rifle butt in the shoulder pocket. It works if you know how.
3. Knowing that if you start with a medium weight 22lr built as a "sniper rifle trainer" and develop the skill and ability without having the recoil management requirement.
4. Knowing that your second system is the low recoil 223 bolt gun, same process as #3, but beginning learning recoil management.
5. Finding the right fitting balanced higher recoiling rifle, and continuing the training regimen, crawl, walk, run, as described in 3,4, 5, and know that you have developed the skill, ability, and consistent presentation of fundamentals, and do so at a championship athletic level.

Kinda like the bi-athalon shooters.

Very few people are willing to put in that level of effort today in the instant gratification world,
Frank (Lowlight) has said there is no $ in teaching like this, that few classes want that level of instruction.
Numerous board posts belittle the old school methods and time involved in learning this way.
Nobody wants to do it today, too time consuming.

But, any sport, golf, basketball, softball, baseball, shooting pistol, shotgun, rifle. etc, that requires hand/eye coordination, repetition movements exceeding 3500-5000 per, to condition the human mind and body, to reach performance levels, well....

Look at any champion and what is required to master their sport, look at their motivations, and the mental rewards they receive, and you find that "spot" for you, and put in the time and repetitions,

You can find, as others have, they can shoot prone bipod just as well with or without a rear bag.

How many of you are willing to work that hard....

There are no shortcuts to get there.

Delta, SF units, and high level champions do 25,000 to 50,000 repetitions to reach performance levels most people scoff at.

Sorta on that line, how many rounds fired and barrels replaced by the current PRS champions in their last best 3 years...
And how many getting to championship levels ?

 

[Cjwise5]

@j-huskey Your point #2 above is what I figured you were going to say. Everything else you said basically boils down to suck less and work harder. Right?

So your advice to Wolfhunter is to change what he knows and has practiced thousands of times, and just try harder?
You also name-dropped Frank with respect to training. Why doesn't frank teach this thumb-in-the-shirt method of rear support? Maybe he does. After all, I've only taken one class from him. In his class we used rear bags for support in the prone. In the 7 other precision rifle classes that I've attended over the years, we used rear bags for support in the prone. In 5 plus years of competition, I've never once seen a person not use a rear bag for support in the prone. All evidence points to it being the preferred method.

I would guess you've been around a lot longer than me though. Life experience could possibly win out in the end. lol

 

[j-huskey]

Wolfhunter needs to figure out why hes not consistent on the rear bag, and fix that inconsistency.
I dont call that a suck. It's a fixable error, and once recognized, solved, and practiced, he should get the result he wants.

Whatever he figures out, though, should be a technique he can maintain for an extended period of time, bc I've seen LE sniper callouts last a few hours.
Simpler technique, the better.

Would you suggest any particular u-tube video you put out as a solution ? All suggestions offered might help Wolfhunter find the answer. We can all learn something.

Best to you,
vr

 

[Cjwise5]

Wolfhunter and I are friends in real life. He knows my opinion, which basically boils down to drowning his work rifle in the deepest part of the ocean. He doesn’t have these issues with his left-handed AI-AT. I think he should use that. But there’s this little thing called internal politics in L.E. that tends to interfere with common sense. (Them, not him) Also, if he uses it in a shooting, it’s gone for who knows how long.
To answer your question about my videos, which was an obvious passive aggressive dig on me- it’s ok, I deserved it -I don’t have any videos about proper rear bag techniques. Thanks for the content idea though. ?

 

[j-huskey]

?
Best to you, vr,

I think you are probably Wolfhunters best source for the solution, be waiting to hear what you guys come up with.

 

[Jordanwickham]

What are the marksmanship requirements for P.D. snipers? My two cents would be to get a small caliber trainer rifle in RH action and hit the range in your free time. I'm left handed and shoot RH actions but that's all I've ever done. I would imagine switching actions would be very awkward, even if I went to shooting a left handed ( the right ) action I wouldn't expect to be shooting the same or even close to what I shoot now even though it is actually the way I should be shooting. Not sure how long you have had the rifle but like everything else in the world it takes practice. Just my two cents.

 

[btorrey]

Wolfhunter... I hope I'm understanding correctly, this is your issued rifle correct? If so, does your agency allow you to build or buy your own rifle? (within certain policies) I ask that because I am wanting to be come a sniper for my agency's SWAT team. I too am left handed, with agency issued right hand firearms, and I'm trying to get a feel of how you, and others, adapt to this situation.

 

[Mike4837]

Wolfhunter... I hope I'm understanding correctly, this is your issued rifle correct? If so, does your agency allow you to build or buy your own rifle? (within certain policies) I ask that because I am wanting to be come a sniper for my agency's SWAT team. I too am left handed, with agency issued right hand firearms, and I'm trying to get a feel of how you, and others, adapt to this situation.

To be honest, I don't know for sure yet. My team leader told me when I got on the team that everything I was issued was just what the dept provides, but if I want something different I have to provide that on my own. That's held true for several gear items like the tripod, but I haven't tested the waters with the rifle itself yet.

I'm considering trying to test the waters eventually with a Seekins SP10. The gun shoots our duty ammo well. A couple guys have floated the idea of adding a .308 gas gun to the team, but I'm not sure how it'll be received yet. I'm new enough on the team that I'm being careful not to rock the boat too much yet.

 

[Mike4837]

What's your youtube channel? I would like to take a look.

I'll plug his channel for him.
Precision Rifle Network
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCLeOv-Izjc2Y1B_9pXgZ4w

 

[btorrey]

Wolfhunter, I know a lot of departments have implemented the gas gun into the mix. Faster follow up shots, yada yada yada. I've heard good things about the Seekins. I know LWRC makes a good rig too. I think what's important is finding what works best and is most comfortable and user friendly to you. You're the one behind the rifle, you'll know what works and what doesn't. Hopefully your department lets you bring some things into the mix that help you out. Especially as a lefty. Whether they want to like it or not, we lefties are different.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

..Or you could do what my (now) 23 y/o Granddaughter does.

She's left handed. But back when she was a preteen and wanted me to teach her rifle shooting, she made a serious decision. She determined that right from the start, she would shoot right handed because left handed rifles, etc., were in shorter supply; and she refused to treat her left handedness as a disability.

At age twenty; she was shooting right alongside me in the 2017 Berger SW LR Nationals.

You're looking for tips.

This is the best one I can imagine.

I honestly think that handedness is simply a choice where rifle shooting is the subject, and that eye dominance makes more sense. But in our Youth Marksmanship training program; we found that even eye dominance is an acquired trait as well, and can be trained over to the other eye.

You'll never know your true abilities until you really try them. Becoming an ambidextrous shooter is a truly respectable accomplishment. One of our youth shooters became a Youth Rimfire Distinguished Expert; both left handed, and right handed.

Our kids amazed us. Just do it. Address the rifle as a right handed shooter, and bring your skills up to speed. It's well worth the effort.

Being able to address the rifle both ways in order to accommodate available cover can be a life saver on the job. Having to take that hand off the bag in order to cycle the bolt is the true dysfunction we're discussing here.

Who's in charge, anyway; the hand or the head?

Greg

 

[btorrey]

^^^ That's very true, in a different setting. In a law enforcement or SWAT capacity, it would be near impossible to allow for enough time behind the rifle for that operator to completely change over. Don't get me wrong, I WISH departments gave that much time to their snipers. I would love that more than anything.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'd seriously consider doing it on my own time; assuming they leave you with any...?

It's a commitment if one chooses it.

You could make it happen with a 22lr to get the positions and movements down. Training is repetition, mostly.

Six of our kids made Distinguished with my ancient Savage MKII and a fixed 6x Tasco on a 50ft indoor range using the NRA Light Rifle targets. It was their Friday night recreation.

....And...; there was Ice Cream involved...

And in case you were wondering where some of those (also Eagle Scout) kids are now, several of them are USCG, fighting the Narco Trade out of Norfolk and Key West. We're talking tons...

Greg

 

[btorrey]

I completely agree.

 

[Mike4837]

Wolfhunter, I know a lot of departments have implemented the gas gun into the mix. Faster follow up shots, yada yada yada. I've heard good things about the Seekins. I know LWRC makes a good rig too. I think what's important is finding what works best and is most comfortable and user friendly to you. You're the one behind the rifle, you'll know what works and what doesn't. Hopefully your department lets you bring some things into the mix that help you out. Especially as a lefty. Whether they want to like it or not, we lefties are different.

I agree. I'm comfortable with the AR10 platform since it's very similar to the AR15. I'm not sure if they high levels in the admin would go for it though because it's a new weapon system to us. The dept issues pistol, AR15's(very basic), sbr's to the entry team guys and .308 bolt guns to the snipers. I don't see they AR10 platform being a big jump, but I definitely think someone will.

The whole point of this thread is to see what other lefties are doing as work arounds with right handed actions. Doesn't sound like many people are doing anything. haha

Part of me wants to see if I can use my AIAT, but it's my comp gun and I really don't want to dedicate my best rifle to work and not be able to shoot competitions with it etc. I also don't really want to fork out $4000 for another rifle, but maybe that's the smart solution.....

 

[Mike4837]

..Or you could do what my (now) 23 y/o Granddaughter does.

She's left handed. But back when she was a preteen and wanted me to teach her rifle shooting, she made a serious decision. She determined that right from the start, she would shoot right handed because left handed rifles, etc., were in shorter supply; and she refused to treat her left handedness as a disability.

At age twenty; she was shooting right alongside me in the 2017 Berger SW LR Nationals.

You're looking for tips.

This is the best one I can imagine.

I honestly think that handedness is simply a choice where rifle shooting is the subject, and that eye dominance makes more sense. But in our Youth Marksmanship training program; we found that even eye dominance is an acquired trait as well, and can be trained over to the other eye.

You'll never know your true abilities until you really try them. Becoming an ambidextrous shooter is a truly respectable accomplishment. One of our youth shooters became a Youth Rimfire Distinguished Expert; both left handed, and right handed.

Our kids amazed us. Just do it. Address the rifle as a right handed shooter, and bring your skills up to speed. It's well worth the effort.

Being able to address the rifle both ways in order to accommodate available cover can be a life saver on the job. Having to take that hand off the bag in order to cycle the bolt is the true dysfunction we're discussing here.

Who's in charge, anyway; the hand or the head?

Greg

I like the spirit. I'll be honest, I'm not going to switch to shooting right handed. Not because I don't think it can be done, but at 35 years old, and in LE, I don't think trying to change my shooting abilities makes sense honestly. Say I get into a shooting in the line of duty and have to justify to an investigator why I don't use what has been my dominant side of my body, and dominant eye, for the last 35 years. The issue is very easily solved with an equipment change, but honestly, it's not even that big of an issue really. I've learned to adapt to right handed guns for years, but now that I have a left handed rifle I'm seeing functional differences when I shoot the two side by side like I mentioned. But, in LE work the likelihood of more than 1 shot is very low so it's really more of an academic issue.

To your point though, I like the idea generally speaking. I think we're remarkably adaptable and it's cool to see some people have learned ways around these issues. However, today, it's much more common to see left handed actions on the market so I think it's becoming less of an issue personally.

As other have pointed out, the main issue I'm seeing is prone or shooting unsupported shots. Since neither are likely in my line of work I'll keep trying to learn, but I'm not going to sweat the small stuff. We've got bigger things to train right now than worrying about left vs right handed guns. But I like to think through some of these things so that's why I'm here.

 

[btorrey]

I agree. I'm comfortable with the AR10 platform since it's very similar to the AR15. I'm not sure if they high levels in the admin would go for it though because it's a new weapon system to us. The dept issues pistol, AR15's(very basic), sbr's to the entry team guys and .308 bolt guns to the snipers. I don't see they AR10 platform being a big jump, but I definitely think someone will.

The whole point of this thread is to see what other lefties are doing as work arounds with right handed actions. Doesn't sound like many people are doing anything. haha

Part of me wants to see if I can use my AIAT, but it's my comp gun and I really don't want to dedicate my best rifle to work and not be able to shoot competitions with it etc. I also don't really want to fork out $4000 for another rifle, but maybe that's the smart solution.....

That's very true. The answer is always no, unless you ask. Food for thought, using your AIAT, if you ever have to use it in the line of duty, they will confiscate your firearm for evidence. Who knows if you'll ever see it again, that depends on your department policies etc... My opinion, save up and build a duty only rifle. That way, no love lost if you have to use it, and don't see it for a long time.

 

[eastexsteve]

Ok boys and girls, I'm looking for the finer points of shooting a right handed action as a left handed shooter. Specifically, I'm talking about the effect of taking the support hand(right) off the rear support/bag to run the action.

I'm a lefty who shot right-handed bolt guns for years. I just adapted. I was never really happy until I started seeking out left-handed guns. I have no problem though shooting right handed ARs. Same goes for 1911 and other pistols.

As far as taking my hand off the support bag, I always just had to re-certify my sighting before the next shot. It just took a bit longer. Now that I shoot more left-handed guns, I sometimes forget which side the bolt is on.

You mentioned introducing a gas gun to the mix. They make some dang good gas guns these days. I've got one. Aside from the velocity falling off at distance, it's just as effective as my bolt gun to a point.

 

[Mike4837]

I'm a lefty who shot right-handed bolt guns for years. I just adapted. I was never really happy until I started seeking out left-handed guns. I have no problem though shooting right handed ARs. Same goes for 1911 and other pistols.

As far as taking my hand off the support bag, I always just had to re-certify my sighting before the next shot. It just took a bit longer. Now that I shoot more left-handed guns, I sometimes forget which side the bolt is on.

You mentioned introducing a gas gun to the mix. They make some dang good gas guns these days. I've got one. Aside from the velocity falling off at distance, it's just as effective as my bolt gun to a point.

I'm with you on this. I've learned to adapt to whatever I shoot. Pistols never gave much of a choice til recent years. I was first issued a Sig P229 which is not left handed friendly.

 

[seanh]

If you can't shoot ambidextrous, assuming there's no physical limitation, I would consider you a liability to the team.

 

[eastexsteve]

If you can't shoot ambidextrous, assuming there's no physical limitation, I would consider you a liability to the team.

Just about anyone can shoot ambidextrous if they try. The question becomes can you do it as well as you can using your natural handidness. I would consider him a liability to the team if he wasn't shooting using the best method he has.

 

[seanh]

Wow, didn't fucking know that. I thought as long as you could squeeze the trigger with other hand I would be great

 

[darth_ritis]

.... I'm talking about the effect of taking the support hand(right) off the rear support/bag to run the action.

What I'm noticing is that my groups are generally about 1/4 moa in vertical spread, but the horizontal spread is greater, generally 3/4 moa. I realize there are other factors that could cause horizontal spread, but I'm noticing that every time I run the action I have to rebuild my position because I lose my rear support.

.... Any ideas on how to mitigate the issue of losing my position?

So if we're talking strictly about positions where a rear bag is still part of the equation, I'm going to assume the bipod is still in play as well, so I think the fundamentals of prone shooting still mostly apply even if it's a rooftop or truck tailgate. What I focus on first is settling my chest into the rifle against the bipod or barricade. When I do this properly, I have a fairly stable sight picture before I introduce the rear bag. The rifle is "locked in". Second, pulling the rifle into my shoulder for recoil management also help stabilize the sight picture. At this point, the rear bag is frosting on the cake. Grasping the butt of the rifle with the thumb and first finger of the support hand, while zeroing in my elevation with the other three fingers grasping the bag and squeezing it using the palm of my support hand, has helped with horizontal control. That last part has been new to me, and has helped, so perhaps that's all I needed to say. I'm long winded, sorry.

I've been a lefty shooting right handed firearms exclusively until recently having bought a couple left handed actions. My advice is to own it. Losing the support hand to operate the action is awkward, just like right handed shooters running the bolt on an AK with their left hand, but they own it and get comfortable with it and master it. Own it. Each shot will require rebuilding the support hand position. Eliminate the distress it causes by using the other fundamentals so that the rear bag is an enhancement not a necessity. Proper application of the rear bag should bring a touch more consistency, but I think the important thing here is getting over the idea that you're hindered by having to do this for each shot. Since your personal firearms are semi-auto or lefty action, I 'm not surprised this feels foreign to you, that's natural. Deliberate practice of proper fundamentals should help. If it feels too confusing, practicing with the issued rifle right handed might be different enough to not confuse between personal firearms and the issued equipment, and building ambidextrous skills isn't a bad thing. Try both, see what you have an easier time with.

Online Training Lesson: Alaska Bench and Rear Bag If you have access to the online training section, this video has a great discussion of rear bag technique that I found helpful.

 

[btorrey]

I'm a lefty who shot right-handed bolt guns for years. I just adapted. I was never really happy until I started seeking out left-handed guns. I have no problem though shooting right handed ARs. Same goes for 1911 and other pistols.

As far as taking my hand off the support bag, I always just had to re-certify my sighting before the next shot. It just took a bit longer. Now that I shoot more left-handed guns, I sometimes forget which side the bolt is on.

You mentioned introducing a gas gun to the mix. They make some dang good gas guns these days. I've got one. Aside from the velocity falling off at distance, it's just as effective as my bolt gun to a point.

I completely agree when it comes to gas guns. They are a tool, and utilizing the right tool for the job is also part of the process. Understanding the abilities and limitations of any rig is part of the discussion.