Legit Question

[Butleroutdoors]

Thinking of going to different caliber from my 6.5CM for 1760 to 2400 yds.

Taken the 6.5CM to a mile but it seems to be optimized 1500 yds.

Lots of good information and recommendations for 7mm, 30 cal and 338 and even larger here in the ELR section.

What has been bugging me is and my question is how are “MarkandSamAfterWork” (you tube video channel) able to do 3000 yd shots with a 6.5CM?

Is it because they have a setup to see misses fairly easy to enable a 6.5CM to perform at that distances?

Not looking to start a SS here, asking a serious question.

 

[vinniedelpino]

Didn’t Miculek pop a balloon at 1000 with a 9mm? And didn’t Haley make hits with a subsonic blk around that distance too?

If you blast enough rounds down range I’m sure you’d hit at 1000 yards with a 22lr.

If you’re not supersonic at the distances you’re shooting you’re probably wasting ammo.

 

[CoryT]

You need to define 'perform at distance'. For me, shooting a 6.5CM at 1500 is a complete waste of time and energy. A .338LM is good there, maybe 1600, but beyond that I want the .375CT. I'm shooting small camouflaged targets (18"x24"), at unknown distance under less than optimum conditions and want two shots per target maximum to hit. If you are shooting 2 MOA white steel plates at a fixed distance with unlimited shots your idea of performance is not the same as mine.

I've got firing tables for my Vickers that go to 4000 yards. That does not mean a .303 Brit is a good cartridge for that distance. On the other hand, I would not want to be standing at that road intersection when the hard rain began to fall.

 

[jasent]

If you can’t see splash it doesn’t matter what your shooting. Having a great spotter in the right conditions helps a ton

 

[CoryT]

Good spotter, definitely needed, splash, not so much. You need to see and extrapolate trace. There are plenty of conditions where splash will never be visible. Proper target evaluation, good range finding, and a known calibrated ballistic computer compensate for seeing impact.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Legit question,

Why did the chicken cross the road?

 

[TripleBull]

To get from the left to the right

 

[secondofangle2]

Agree completely with CoryT. THAT is the reality. If you wanna do proof of concept and burn through a box of ammo and connect under ideal conditions, go for it. But a 6.5 creed is NOT an ELR cartridge.

Look for a thread/video by none other than lowlight called “realities of ELR” where he struggles and struggles to connect with a 338LM at 2000.

I know of plenty of guys who have carefully selected a shooting location that is protected from wind, where there is rarely wind, or a tailwind mostly. That is not “real life” ELR. That is cherry picked ELR.

Anybody who thinks they have a 6.5 that is a mile capable rifle is cordially invited to my shooting location in the west desert where I have a 1MOA plate you can range at a mile and I’ll crack a beer and watch you melt that 6.5 barrel trying to connect with it. We can even camp overnight, let it cool down, and keep going for days in a row.

 

[Emerson0311]

Agree completely with CoryT. THAT is the reality. If you wanna do proof of concept and burn through a box of ammo and connect under ideal conditions, go for it. But a 6.5 creed is NOT an ELR cartridge.

Look for a thread/video by none other than lowlight called “realities of ELR” where he struggles and struggles to connect with a 338LM at 2000.

I know of plenty of guys who have carefully selected a shooting location that is protected from wind, where there is rarely wind, or a tailwind mostly. That is not “real life” ELR. That is cherry picked ELR.

Anybody who thinks they have a 6.5 that is a mile capable rifle is cordially invited to my shooting location in the west desert where I have a 1MOA plate you can range at a mile and I’ll crack a beer and watch you melt that 6.5 barrel trying to connect with it. We can even camp overnight, let it cool down, and keep going for days in a row.

Thank you for what sounds like good sense earned from experience. I have always thought the same, but haven’t had the means to prove it to myself. Like the guys pulling a 44’ 5th wheel with their F250 and talking about how good a job it does. I towed a 10K bumper pull with a 2500HD, and now a 44’ 5-er with a F450. I just set the cruise and steer. Totally different experience.

 

[Steel head]

Mark and Sam of seem to have an excellent place to shoot with decent light and excellent area to spot hits and misses.

Spotting is a huge factor in ELR.

Where I live in the PNW spotting can be difficult and seeing 6.5 impacts past a mile is usually difficult.
In my eastern Washington and Oregon desert spots it’s a good bit easier.

Sometimes here even 338 and 375’s can be tough when the dirt and rock is wet.

 

[badassgunworks]

Spotting is a factor. But it's also what is happening to a bullet that is in the subsonic Zone. Under minute conditions changes create a scenario where nothing is predictable. Kind of like the whole lightning doesn't strike in the same place twice. When you're shooting Binky low sectional density bullets

 

[secondofangle2]

Legit answer: Here's Frank Galli at Gunsite academy with a 338LM AI shooting at 2200 yards a 3/4 MOA target.



But don't worry, the technology has really advanced in the past 7 years so now a 6.5 Creed is a serious contender past 2000.

Just get up at Oh-Dark-30 to beat the wind and the mirage and it will be a cake walk

 

[stefan73]

Legit answer: Here's Frank Galli at Gunsite academy with a 338LM AI shooting at 2200 yards a 3/4 MOA target.



But don't worry, the technology has really advanced in the past 7 years so now a 6.5 Creed is a serious contender past 2000.

Just get up at Oh-Dark-30 to beat the wind and the mirage and it will be a cake walk

That's like me when I was shooting a 2,000 yard target in Kansas. Except we couldn't see the splash because the grass was so high. The wind was horrible and swirled around like an angry toddler that drank a couple of Red Bulls. It seemed like every time I tried to adjust for where I thought the round might have gone I was wrong. The steel was so heavy that it was hard to tell impacts. When I thought I had only hit it once or twice it turned out I had four impacts out of a bunch of shots (it was an expensive day). My target was bigger then what Frank shot and I needed every inch that day.

 

[nick338]

This is where I think a 300 Norma/338 Lapua covers the broadest range of applications from 1k-2k. Far too many variables come in to play and like Cory mentioned, what is the desired performance?

If I had a place to shoot past 2k all the time I would own a 375 CT without even blinking an eye, although the cost of all your gear required to shoot that far and beyond goes up exponentially.

If I'm limited to 1k or less I'm probably looking at something in 6.5 or 7mm. Played with a 7 SAUM at a mile and a buddy had a 65 PRC also and yes you can make hits but conditions were very favorable.

Define your performance, assess your budget and set realistic expectations.

 

[Steel head]

From 2-3k I wouldn’t even bother with a 375 unless you’re doing competitions.
7mm, 300’s and 338 do really well in that range.

 

[nick338]

From 2-3k I wouldn’t even bother with a 375 unless you’re doing competitions.
7mm, 300’s and 338 do really well in that range.

Sure if you're shooting at 2 MOA, painted steel targets in no wind on an overcast day. Or you're just not looking for a very high hit percentage.

 

[CoryT]

Sure if you're shooting at 2 MOA, painted steel targets in no wind on an overcast day. Or you're just not looking for a very high hit percentage.

I sure he meant 2-3k FEET, not yards.

 

[Steel head]

My biggest target is 28” x 28” and I have no problems hitting it with my 7mm and 338 out to 3K and even further.
If I was in competitions I’d surely up my odds with another 200-300fps with the 338 or a 375.

 

[Dogtown]

I think if you’re going to stop at 2000 yards you can go with a variety of magnums depending on conditions. Pushing out to 2500 is where a lot of people start running out of elevation and the difficulty spotting splash seems to jump. If you want to shoot at 2500 yards and beyond, I think that’s the point when .375CT and .416B make the most sense. They’re quite a bit easier to spot trace and splash at those distances compared to .300/.338 magnums.

But if you’re rarely ever going beyond 2000 yards then I think it’s best to stay with a .300NM or .338LM (best with long barrel and improved chamber). Something folks often don’t consider is that moving up to .375CT and .416B tends to be a significant jump in reloading costs. You need to scale up your equipment and consumables scale in price proportionally.

So if you’re going to compete at a mile to 2000 yards, you can do fine with a lot of long action cartridges. But if you’re serious about competing at 2500 yards and beyond, you’ll be better off with a big bore cartridge in the long run.

 

[Steel head]

So if you’re going to compete at a mile to 2000 yards, you can do fine with a lot of long action cartridges. But if you’re serious about competing at 2500 yards and beyond, you’ll be better off with a big bore cartridge in the long run.

If your just an enthusiast you don’t have the same needs as a top 5 finisher at KO2M or spear point.

Get a magnum and go have fun and enjoy the challenge and outdoors.

 

[nick338]

If your just an enthusiast you don’t have the same needs as a top 5 finisher at KO2M or spear point.

Get a magnum and go have fun and enjoy the challenge and outdoors.

But some enthusiasts don't set realistic expectations or understand limitations and end up with something they regret. It happens on both ends of the spectrum so while the performance you're getting is acceptable to you, when someone else build a 7 SAUM and thinks they're going to knock it out of the park at 3k because you have some success doing it, they are in for a rude awakening.

 

[Steel head]

But some enthusiasts don't set realistic expectations or understand limitations and end up with something they regret. It happens on both ends of the spectrum so while the performance you're getting is acceptable to you, when someone else build a 7 SAUM and thinks they're going to knock it out of the park at 3k because you have some success doing it, they are in for a rude awakening.

Well I’d consider 7 saum the minimum for 3K, if your budget is tight it’s a legitimate option.

That’s why I built the 338 but I will say I’m proud to have broken my 2 mile cherry with the 7 saum.
Wasn’t really difficult either.
It’s a surprisingly good performance for the $$$

I’m lucky to have easy access to 2-4K and appreciate the
Ballistics and spotting of the 338, in fact I’m leaving work early today to go out and play a bit and maybe hike in a new target.

Another factor that I’ve seen repeatedly is friends new to ELR or bigger magnums shooting my 7mm with it’s super mild recoil better than the 300 rums and 338’s and especially the 375 and doing considerably better at 2000+

 

[Dogtown]

Yup, it really depends on expectations and standards.

When I started out shooting to a mile I was foolishly shooting 10" x 17" IPSC steel. I ended up wasting a lot of time/money/effort only to discover that it wasn't that I was super inconsistent; my targets were unrealistically small. It can be really discouraging, especially for folks new to ELR, to find themselves dancing all around the target at a mile. If anything, pushing targets out farther is one way to increase the challenge, but so is shrinking the targets. Moving up to 24" x 24" was a night and day difference, and from there it was much easier to develop technique.

 

[Steel head]

Yup, it really depends on expectations and standards.

When I started out shooting to a mile I was foolishly shooting 10" x 17" IPSC steel. I ended up wasting a lot of time/money/effort only to discover that it wasn't that I was super inconsistent; my targets were unrealistically small. It can be really discouraging, especially for folks new to ELR, to find themselves dancing all around the target at a mile. If anything, pushing targets out farther is one way to increase the challenge, but so is shrinking the targets. Moving up to 24" x 24" was a night and day difference, and from there it was much easier to develop technique.

That would be a fun target but I agree, 10” wide is really difficult at that range.
This is my 1750, 1810, 2300 and was my original two mile target depending on which landing I shoot it from.

 

[secondofangle2]

If that last target is an 18" plate hung like a diamond shape, that's what I have to 1760 yards, and it is a SUPER challenging target if there is any wind, especially variable wind, even with 375CT. If I go beyond that, I hang two 18" plates side by side with their sides parallel to the ground, or 4 of them in a 36" grid - a much more realistic target for beyond a mile, about 2 MOA at a mile and 1 MOA at 2 miles.

 

[Dogtown]

Hey, if you do the 2 x 2 matrix with steel of different mass, you can make them ring a simple song...

 

[jasent]

I’m too lazy to hang targets. I just shoot rocks

 

[atepointer]

My biggest target is 28” x 28” and I have no problems hitting it with my 7mm and 338 out to 3K and even further.
If I was in competitions I’d surely up my odds with another 200-300fps with the 338 or a 375.
View attachment 7763094

If you are at 2k with say 10mph full value out of 3 o'clock...assuming right hand twist....what kind of wind holds do you have with your 7mm/338....also velocity if you have it handy please. I looked really hard at making a change in recent months, but for the time being stayed put. If I lived out west with those kinds of shots possible I see in your pics wow I'd just have to make the commitment to a larger caliber. That photo is flipping beautiful.

I'm still open to possibly building a boomer one of these days, but the yardage I'm stuck at left me kind of in limbo for now. First year going out to that distance and getting plenty of fun for my money at present. I can clearly see when we get trigger pull conditions right at sunrise vs 10mph winds how fast the 6.5 degrades in my hands. I know plenty of other people can squeeze more out of it, but I'm definitely learning a lot about wind reading, mirage etc.

 

[Steel head]

If you are at 2k with say 10mph full value out of 3 o'clock...assuming right hand twist....what kind of wind holds do you have with your 7mm/338....also velocity if you have it handy please. I looked really hard at making a change in recent months, but for the time being stayed put. If I lived out west with those kinds of shots possible I see in your pics wow I'd just have to make the commitment to a larger caliber. That photo is flipping beautiful.

I'm still open to possibly building a boomer one of these days, but the yardage I'm stuck at left me kind of in limbo for now. First year going out to that distance and getting plenty of fun for my money at present. I can clearly see when we get trigger pull conditions right at sunrise vs 10mph winds how fast the 6.5 degrades in my hands. I know plenty of other people can squeeze more out of it, but I'm definitely learning a lot about wind reading, mirage etc.

7mm

338

 

[atepointer]

7mm
View attachment 7763713
338
View attachment 7763715

omg wow. thanks for sharing

 

[CoryT]

So what that tells you is that shooting that 7mm at 2K is going to require a really wide target or a wind call +/- .5 MPH.

1 MPH of wind moves the bullet right at 22", more than half the width of a 36" target. Supposing you could hold a 1/2 MOA group at that range, which is a tad optimistic, with a .5 MPH wind error about half the group is off the target. More like lotto than deliberation.

 

[Steel head]

Oh
There’s specific cartridge criteria you must abide by to do ELR with?

 

[secondofangle2]

No, people are free to do whatever the heck they want with whatever cartridge at whatever range; and the rest of us are likewise free to form an opinion on whether it makes sense or is a fool's errand.

 

[CoryT]

A .22 LR will travel as much as a mile. It’s going to hit something. You could put a soda can out there and if
you shoot enough you’ll hit it. I’m not sure skill has much to do with that. Same thing shooting other small calibers at long ranges. At some point, it’s simply happenstance, like the Hill Country group getting excited about hitting a huge target at 4K after launching rounds at it for hours.

If you ask me, that’s a complete waste of time and money. They seem to think otherwise and since it’s their time and money, it has no effect on me at all. So, back to my original post, what are you trying to do?

If you intend to hit something on purpose, where skill has a larger factor in the outcome than chance, then you need a group size that is smaller than the target. You need a range precise enough to place the target in the danger space as close to center as possible. At that point the wind call becomes everything. It must be able to place a significant portion of the group on the target area.

Good wind reads over 2000 yards might be +/- 2 mph of the net crosswind value. If .5 mph places half the group off the target, even if you do everything else perfectly you miss more than half the time. At this point, you did not hit the target, Chance hit it.

 

[secondofangle2]

^^^I love this whole post, esp. this:
"If you ask me, that’s a complete waste of time and money. They seem to think otherwise and since it’s their time and money, it has no effect on me at all. So, back to my original post, what are you trying to do?"

 

[Butleroutdoors]

Many thanks for the excellent responses.

My initial question may have caused a little bit of wobble in the steering.

Let me clarify my question:

MarkandSamAfterWork don’t seem to be “lobbing artillery” in their 6.5CM 3000 yd video.
They also have other videos connecting ELR with other non-magnum calibers.
What are the techniques and processes they are doing to connect at these distances with using a much larger more powerful cartridge?

 

[Steel head]

Many thanks for the excellent responses.

My initial question may have caused a little bit of wobble in the steering.

Let me clarify my question:

MarkandSamAfterWork don’t seem to be “lobbing artillery” in their 6.5CM 3000 yd video.
They also have other videos connecting ELR with other non-magnum calibers.
What are the techniques and processes they are doing to connect at these distances with using a much larger more powerful cartridge?

It’s pretty much exactly the same with a bit more challenge in spotting and wind.

They do have a few things going for them.
A nice place with excellent spotting potential.
A good bit of experience with both ELR and their particular area.
A desire to try it.

Just because it’s not optimal doesn’t mean it’s not fun.
I can say bullet quality becomes a really big deal at those distances.
That bullets that makes bugholes at 100 yards can really bite you at 3000.

 

[Steel head]

So what that tells you is that shooting that 7mm at 2K is going to require a really wide target or a wind call +/- .5 MPH.

1 MPH of wind moves the bullet right at 22", more than half the width of a 36" target. Supposing you could hold a 1/2 MOA group at that range, which is a tad optimistic, with a .5 MPH wind error about half the group is off the target. More like lotto than deliberation.

Not really any different than the oftentimes considered god like 300NM.

 

[secondofangle2]

Many thanks for the excellent responses.

My initial question may have caused a little bit of wobble in the steering.

Let me clarify my question:

MarkandSamAfterWork don’t seem to be “lobbing artillery” in their 6.5CM 3000 yd video.
They also have other videos connecting ELR with other non-magnum calibers.
What are the techniques and processes they are doing to connect at these distances with using a much larger more powerful cartridge?

I finally watched it
It’s pretty good shooting honestly but There is no magic or mystery - find a place with v minimal wind get up at the asscrack of dawn (RalphandSamBEFOREwork) edit out a lot of the misses and don’t bother to splice it all together and post it on the internet unless you connect that one time

I guarantee hundreds of others have tried this and failed but those are boring videos and don’t get posted

 

[Steel head]

They have found optimum wind conditions and are sling lead lots of lead for hours on end till they connect. There is no magic or mystery

Maybe we should be watching your YouTube Channel instead?

 

[jasent]

That comment tells me you haven’t watched much mark and Sam

Some guys like to make this all seam way more difficult than it is. The best way to learn it is to just get out there and shoot it.

Run what ya got
My first outing taking my 243 to a mile was just slinging lead and hoping. I learned a little, second time I started getting impacts, 3rd time I was 50%. Last time I was 7/10.
Yes your wind read must be dead on.
I’ll tell you this, every single one of those shots brought a smile to my face.
This is kinda like the anti longrage hunters saying how it’s unethical to hunt long range blah blah

People like to think they are the best and if they can’t do it then no one else can.

Shoot how ever you like at what ever range you like with what ever cartridge you have. Don’t pay any attention to the poop poo’ers.

 

[CoryT]

Not really any different than the oftentimes considered god like 300NM.

300NM is pretty much the entry point for an ELR cartridge, hardly a spectacular performer. The upsides are low recoil, high velocity and a wide selection of bullets. The downside is case cost/availability and barrel life. Case life seems good though, and reloading costs are fairly low. I've shot plenty of it and had quite a few in class. I don't own one though and would not bother with anything smaller than .338 NM if I were serious about shooting at 2K. I'm in the group that thinks if you can't hit it given two shots fired no more that 3 seconds apart you can't hit it at all. If you are having fun launching 3, 7 or 20+ rounds at something to get a hit, knock yourself out, glad you are out there shooting. That holds no interest for me though.

 

[CoryT]

My first outing taking my 243 to a mile was just slinging lead and hoping. I learned a little, second time I started getting impacts, 3rd time I was 50%. Last time I was 7/10.

The question is, how often and under what conditions are you 7/10? This is like the guys that think they have a 1/2 MOA rifle because they sometimes shoot a group < 1/2 inch at 100. As Jeff Cooper put it, it's not what you've done once, it's what can you do on demand?

 

[jasent]

I remember back in the day when the first guys started talking about shooting a mile or more on forums. They got a lot of nah sayers and back lash

I remember the common saying was lob enough and you’ll hit something. Guess that saying hasn’t died yet but these days it’s pretty common to shoot out to a mile or more

 

[jasent]

The question is, how often and under what conditions are you 7/10? This is like the guys that think they have a 1/2 MOA rifle because they sometimes shoot a group < 1/2 inch at 100. As Jeff Cooper put it, it's not what you've done once, it's what can you do on demand?

I’ve only attempted it 4 outings with that rifle.
My point was the more I tried the better I got. Each time I’ve improved and it made me better at reading the wind in that location. It’s also made me much better at self spotting.

 

[Steel head]

The question is, how often and under what conditions are you 7/10? This is like the guys that think they have a 1/2 MOA rifle because they sometimes shoot a group < 1/2 inch at 100. As Jeff Cooper put it, it's not what you've done once, it's what can you do on demand?

What’s more important
7/10 or hanging out with friends of various skill levels smokin cigars, shooting some far off steel, and talking copious trash and enjoying life?

You can set limits on what’s acceptable to shoot.
I say run what ya bring and have fun all the while learning.

 

[Steel head]

I’ve only attempted it 4 outings with that rifle.
My point was the more I tried the better I got. Each time I’ve improved and it made me better at reading the wind in that location. It’s also made me much better at self spotting.

Same with my trusty 260!
I wore out a barrel in about 10 months shooting at that spot every chance I got, learned a ton and had a great time.
I have copious notes from that time really got a lot more comfortable shooting far.

I remember back in the day when the first guys started talking about shooting a mile or more on forums. They got a lot of nah sayers and back lash

I remember the common saying was lob enough and you’ll hit something. Guess that saying hasn’t died yet but these days it’s pretty common to shoot out to a mile or more

No kidding!
I remember those times!
If I’d listened to the naysayers I wouldn’t have found the hobby I love the most.

 

[secondofangle2]

Maybe we should be watching

Maybe you should

 

[Steel head]

Maybe you should

Link?

 

[secondofangle2]

3 in a row on an 18” plate at 1775 w 50 BMG

And completely totally cherry-picked from scores of videos showing miss after miss at that range and beyond with a wide selection of calibers.