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Rifle Scopes Leica PRS 5-30×56 with PRB Reticle
- Thread starter dghboy315
- Start date
From the pic I see it has auto-off at 4 hours, I do like scopes with that feature... can't tell you how many batteries I've gone through because I forgot to turn off the illumination
I'll take any motor vehicle or optical instrument made in Japan over one made in Germany any day and twice on Sunday.
I guess my comment did sound a little presumptuous and could be misconstrued that Japanese optics were inferior to German, my point was that Leica is a German optics company and I'd like to see this scope stay with the company's tradition. While the best I've seen from sport optics has come from Europe, I have seen some very impressive Japanese glass of late.
This is what one of the reps at Shot told me.
the sheet is from Shot and is marked at the top.
A Leica rep from the show is giving out wrong information.
When my Leica Magnus got sent in for repair it went back to Portugal. I asked why and did some research and turns out all sport optics, scopes and range finders get sent there. I don’t know if thats just the repair centre or stuff is made from new there. Camera‘s went back to Germany for repair not Portugal.
However I‘ve read 75% of the production happens in Portugal then the last bits are made/assembled in Germany.
However I‘ve read 75% of the production happens in Portugal then the last bits are made/assembled in Germany.
This is normal across almost all industries. The people who downgrade a product from a known brand simply because it wasn't made in the traditional home country simply don't know anything about how modern manufacturing can make ultra high quality products under one corporate banner across the globe.
This forum is filled with people like that.
Case in point: Honda Motor Company's uber flagship (NSX) is manufactured exclusively in Honda Manufacturing of America's Marysville, Ohio plant. A significant percentage of the design and the parts content are 100% American-made. This is Honda's most expensive, luxurious, and technologically advanced vehicle: assembled in the United States with a significant % of manufacturing in the United States.
Let that sink in......
I few points.
1) Leica Sport Optics products can be manufactured in one of two facilities: Germany and Portugal. Both are fully owned by Leica and I have not seen any real difference between stuff made in Portugal or in Germany in terms of quality. I think most products that involve electronics (LRFs, etc) are mostly made in Portugal.
2) We were in a meeting with a couple of business/sales people from Leica USA and the PRS scope project manager from Europe. All three said Germany. We spent somewhere between 45 minutes and an hour with them primarily talking about this scope. They were reasonably open with us.
3) Fundamentally, regardless of where the scope made, if it is a Leica scope, it better bloody perform like a Leica scope. In the end, that is all that matters. When I get the scope, I will focus on how it performs. Nothing else is important.
ILya
1) Leica Sport Optics products can be manufactured in one of two facilities: Germany and Portugal. Both are fully owned by Leica and I have not seen any real difference between stuff made in Portugal or in Germany in terms of quality. I think most products that involve electronics (LRFs, etc) are mostly made in Portugal.
2) We were in a meeting with a couple of business/sales people from Leica USA and the PRS scope project manager from Europe. All three said Germany. We spent somewhere between 45 minutes and an hour with them primarily talking about this scope. They were reasonably open with us.
3) Fundamentally, regardless of where the scope made, if it is a Leica scope, it better bloody perform like a Leica scope. In the end, that is all that matters. When I get the scope, I will focus on how it performs. Nothing else is important.
ILya
Looks like a solid scope from holding it in hand and playing with it. As mentioned before speaking to the glass quality from an indoor venue would be a waste of time. It certainly appears to be a high quality piece of equipment and being made by Leica sets certain expectations.
Many of the comments and questions here are comical. If you don't like the reticle, there are 3 choices. If you still don't like it, there are many other options out there. Who cares where it is really made or assembled? If it meets Leica's standards and they stand behind it that is all we need to know. Concerns about the price point suggesting that it is somehow an inferior product... $2,799 is a lot of money for a scope and despite being a nice option the Leica doesn't do anything new. It is actually feature poor compared to some other optics and certainly on purpose to hit the price point and sell. I assume that new features are planned, specifically with Leica's history in electronics and rangefinders. This scope looks like a great dive in point for Leica to target the PRS market.
Many of the comments and questions here are comical. If you don't like the reticle, there are 3 choices. If you still don't like it, there are many other options out there. Who cares where it is really made or assembled? If it meets Leica's standards and they stand behind it that is all we need to know. Concerns about the price point suggesting that it is somehow an inferior product... $2,799 is a lot of money for a scope and despite being a nice option the Leica doesn't do anything new. It is actually feature poor compared to some other optics and certainly on purpose to hit the price point and sell. I assume that new features are planned, specifically with Leica's history in electronics and rangefinders. This scope looks like a great dive in point for Leica to target the PRS market.
I wasn’t overly impressed with this optic at shot. To be fair, I have pretty high standards as far as optics.
In that price point I’d take a razor gen 2, use Schmidt or k525i over the leica.
Turrets were a bit soft and a little finicky getting to slip back on when you take them off. Reticles were average.
I think it’s a decent first offering from them, but would hope to see some refinements over time.
In that price point I’d take a razor gen 2, use Schmidt or k525i over the leica.
Turrets were a bit soft and a little finicky getting to slip back on when you take them off. Reticles were average.
I think it’s a decent first offering from them, but would hope to see some refinements over time.
FYI,
This is made in Germany, not the Portugal Plant
Also in terms of optics compared to other scopes, the Leica will have better glass
The best example I can give is the Vortex Gen II Razor, at the SH Events in Colville I used the Razor 2 years ago, it had a very hard time resolving the targets hidden in the woods. We place several targets inside the tree line and more or less don't mark or paint them. I found my Razor had a difficult time seeing them. On the last stage with a hidden target, I used Peter Howell's Rifle from Sig and the Tango 6 5-30x, which is pretty similar to a Razor. The target popped compared to my razor. I think when everyone is shooting matches with targets that are front and center and painted, it's easy to overlook the little things like resolving things in the woods or hidden by shadows. We have fallen into a competition trap where things presented to you make us blind to other issues we never used to overlook. Like shooting in less than desirable conditions.
This is made in Germany, not the Portugal Plant
Also in terms of optics compared to other scopes, the Leica will have better glass
The best example I can give is the Vortex Gen II Razor, at the SH Events in Colville I used the Razor 2 years ago, it had a very hard time resolving the targets hidden in the woods. We place several targets inside the tree line and more or less don't mark or paint them. I found my Razor had a difficult time seeing them. On the last stage with a hidden target, I used Peter Howell's Rifle from Sig and the Tango 6 5-30x, which is pretty similar to a Razor. The target popped compared to my razor. I think when everyone is shooting matches with targets that are front and center and painted, it's easy to overlook the little things like resolving things in the woods or hidden by shadows. We have fallen into a competition trap where things presented to you make us blind to other issues we never used to overlook. Like shooting in less than desirable conditions.
The scopes they has at SHOT had pre-production turrets. They specifically said production turrets will have better feel.
We will know soon, I suppose.
ILya
Spot on. In a riflescope that costs this much money (and $2700 is an appreciable amount of money), I expect the mechanics to be spot on and optics to be up to snuff. If either of these is lacking, the scope will fail. There is too much strong competition out there and it is only going to get tougher as we go along.
ILya
This is exactly what I found when I began getting into higher end scopes, because I hunt with a lot of my scopes I wanted to test them in low light and high contrast/shadow situations and this is where I found the biggest difference, many scopes that performed very well during daytime conditions did not do so well in the challenging situations.
In the end, if the final release Leica PRS scope can deliver in these areas and offer a mechanically sound design they will sell some scopes, I don't think the scope will get people to sell their existing scopes to buy the Leica unless they are not happy already, but it does give another option to those in the market for a $3k scope at a little better price point and features than some others. Leica was wise to price it this way, I will be curious to see how it compares once all is said and done.
I was apparently lucky enough to get the rep that didn’t know anything. He didn’t mention it was demo turrets.
Should have know when he said “the windage turret is those .2 adjustments or whatever you call it.”
We spent a solid 45 minutes with the project manager for the PRS scope and a couple of reps who seemed to be up to speed. I think both Will and I walked away with generally positive impression, but it really all comes down to how the scope does when it gets here.
I will have a proper production scope to test.
ILya
I reached out to the folks at Leica and they said:
"It is not a locking turret yet a zero stop. With our zero stop it will also allow the user to set below zero for a “hold under” option. There is also a pop up column in the center of the elevation turret that will indicate with lines and nomenclature as to what revolution you are on (1-3).
The rev indicator is a visible and tactile post that pops up one level from the center of the elevation turret each time the shooter completes a turn of the turret. "
They also sent me this link which is a great read.
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One of the benefits of the Vortex AMG is the fact that it's 100% made in the USA (outside of the reticle). Could Vortex have made this scope in Japan, the Philippines or China and still maintain the quality and workmanship, arguably yes, the reason manufacturers go to another country is often to reduce costs. And while some would differentiate being made in the USA, vs. being made in Japan, vs. being made in Germany, etc. I personally have an affinity for companies that have been known for their high quality keep manufacturing within their own country. Does that mean the quality is any less, as has been discussed already not necessarily, but sometimes it is the case the quality does drop some. One example, I recently bought two Nikon 60mm AF-S f/2.8 micro lenses, I noticed one was stamped Japan and the other was stamped Thailand and it immediately made me stop and think, "is one better than the other optically", I did a few tests and thought I saw a slight edge to the one made in Japan, but was that from my preconceived notion that the Japanese made copy was better or was it sample variance or... either way, the two performed extremely well and it would be splitting hairs to say one had a distinct advantage over the other. Likewise with many of these high end optics, will a scope designed by LOW perform less than a scope designed by Leica, not necessarily, but considering Leica's heritage, seeing a Portugal stamp or another country listed makes me wonder why, most likely because of my affinity towards German mfg.
With all that being said, I do agree that manufacturing today is very different from manufacturing even 20 years ago. And it is probably time to change my mindset when it comes to companies and where they choose to manufacture their products. Regardless of the country of manufacture we ought to be looking more on the quality of the product delivered and base our decision on those merits alone. So bare with me as it might take some time for this old guy to get over his bias
One thing I will say is that German glass tends to be a little more neutral > warm and Japanese glass tends to be a bit cooler (to my eyes) and my eye prefers a slightly neutral to warm color cast which is probably why I have an affinity for German glass, the one company from Japan that comes closest to my preference has been March as I feel their color cast reminds me more of my experience with German glass or rather neutral to warm color. That is a conversation for another day so I'll just leave it at that as it is definitely personal preference.So Long Range 338, I think you have persuaded me to agree with your statement above, and to that end, I am very curious to see the new Leica 5-30x56 PRS scope and see how it stacks up against other scopes in the $2500-$3000 class regardless of where it is made.
What makes you think Leica designed this scope? It looks like a Leica Bush Striker to me, a Bushnell ERS with Delta Striker turrets. Maybe they tweaked the design? Looks like the only difference is Leica’s ability to focus closer.
One of the benefits of the Vortex AMG is the fact that it's 100% made in the USA (outside of the reticle). Could Vortex have made this scope in Japan, the Philippines or China and still maintain the quality and workmanship, arguably yes, the reason manufacturers go to another country is often to reduce costs. And while some would differentiate being made in the USA, vs. being made in Japan, vs. being made in Germany, etc. I personally have an affinity for companies that have been known for their high quality keep manufacturing within their own country. Does that mean the quality is any less, as has been discussed already not necessarily, but sometimes it is the case the quality does drop some. One example, I recently bought two Nikon 60mm AF-S f/2.8 micro lenses, I noticed one was stamped Japan and the other was stamped Thailand and it immediately made me stop and think, "is one better than the other optically", I did a few tests and thought I saw a slight edge to the one made in Japan, but was that from my preconceived notion that the Japanese made copy was better or was it sample variance or... either way, the two performed extremely well and it would be splitting hairs to say one had a distinct advantage over the other. Likewise with many of these high end optics, will a scope designed by LOW perform less than a scope designed by Leica, not necessarily, but considering Leica's heritage, seeing a Portugal stamp or another country listed makes me wonder why, most likely because of my affinity towards German mfg.
With all that being said, I do agree that manufacturing today is very different from manufacturing even 20 years ago. And it is probably time to change my mindset when it comes to companies and where they choose to manufacture their products. Regardless of the country of manufacture we ought to be looking more on the quality of the product delivered and base our decision on those merits alone. So bare with me as it might take some time for this old guy to get over his bias
So Long Range 338, I think you have persuaded me to agree with your statement above, and to that end, I am very curious to see the new Leica 5-30x56 PRS scope and see how it stacks up against other scopes in the $2500-$3000 class regardless of where it is made.
I'm very persuasive when you do the talking for me...
I have to admit I think of myself as a snob of fine German made instruments but my collection tends to say otherwise, so I agree with the bias as well. However when a company such as Leica presents a product they are willing to stand behind I can set my bias aside. On the flip side if Tasco comes out with a $3k scope I won't be able to muster much enthusiasm...
In the total of the conversation I've almost lost my mind and left Quigley-Ford out of the discussion. One must never forget such refinement and quality... Buddly can you chime in here?
In the total of the conversation I've almost lost my mind and left Quigley-Ford out of the discussion. One must never forget such refinement and quality... Buddly can you chime in here?
Bushnell has 50mm objective. Leica is 56mm. I'd be very surprised if there is any commonality there with any Bushnell products.
Leica PRS scope is almost here. Let's all hold off and wait to see how it does. It is not too long now.
ILya
Well now you've raised the bar. Of course we need to verify this is Schott glass. Anything less would be uncivilized!
Don't tell me you just wrote that.
I am about to get on the plane again, so the fallout is not my problem.
ILya
Again - I posted what one of the reps told me at Shot. Someone at Leica does not know what they are talking about.
So, there are only so many ways to make a turret. Some of them are proprietary to certain manufacturers. One could spend considerable money engineering a new turret design but it's costly. Leica most likely used one of many public/non-copywritten turret designs for their turrets to keep costs down. Same reason auto makers reuse frames for multiple car models.
While I sympathize with the other points you made in your post above, precluding any discussion about reticles would discount important chunks of @koshkin/ILya’s and @wjm308’s reviews, not to mention eliminate large swaths of the Hide.
Critiques of reticles is a very valid concern; country of origin less so.
Agreed but if you post 6 times telling me why you don't like one of the reticles it is pointless. Even if I am slow and my reading comprehension is low I heard you by the 2nd time....
My point was simply that if it doesn't appeal to you, state it and move on. This scope is still in pre-production so everything is speculation honestly. And of course I don't mean you personally, I am speaking in general terms.
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On reticles: when I evaluate the quality of a particular scope, reticle is not really a part of that. We all have different preferences. However, when I decide whether I would by that scope, reticle matters and I will definitely go over what I like and what I do not like about.
With the PRB reticle, overall, I have seen much worse. There are a couple of things about it I dislike, but overall it seems like a fairly usable design.
ILya
With the PRB reticle, overall, I have seen much worse. There are a couple of things about it I dislike, but overall it seems like a fairly usable design.
ILya
Point taken, ILya; I do remember you specifically pointing that out in your excellent reviews. I guess I was remembering some comment in one of your videos comparing a Tremor reticle to a torn spiderweb or something. Hell, maybe it wasn’t even you that said it. If I’m misremembering, I apologize.
Nonetheless, that still makes me laugh!
It is interesting how reticles work on your brain; there’s really no substitute for an in-person viewing. Tough to get time with expensive scopes.
For example, Vortex’s EBR-7B for the AMG looked awful to me in a pdf, a little better in a though-scope pic, and in person (in my own AMG) it looks pretty good. I haven’t shot it yet (Minnesota) but I think it’ll be fine.
[edit] Just shot it at the range. Thumbs up!
I know the Leica tree reticle isn’t for me just because I like at least 2 MRAD on the first horizontal. Beyond that quibble, if I got to look through it, perhaps the four different markers used in the reticle would gel.
C’est la vie.
Nonetheless, that still makes me laugh!
It is interesting how reticles work on your brain; there’s really no substitute for an in-person viewing. Tough to get time with expensive scopes.
For example, Vortex’s EBR-7B for the AMG looked awful to me in a pdf, a little better in a though-scope pic, and in person (in my own AMG) it looks pretty good. I haven’t shot it yet (Minnesota) but I think it’ll be fine.
[edit] Just shot it at the range. Thumbs up!
I know the Leica tree reticle isn’t for me just because I like at least 2 MRAD on the first horizontal. Beyond that quibble, if I got to look through it, perhaps the four different markers used in the reticle would gel.
C’est la vie.
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Lowlight,
As you know resolving power is of the utmost importance when locating targets. Hope the Zeiss Range finding binoculars are treating you well. We need to get a Harpia 95mm in your hands.
EJ
Were they made in Portugal? Just kidding everyone, seriously, just a joke but couldn’t resist
For those on the east coast interested in this scope the leica rep has one at the Europtic booth this week at the Great American Outdoor show in Harrisburg Pa
I was at the Harrisburg outdoorsman show on Monday and stop by Euro optics. They did not have the Leica PRS scope.? They only had the Magnus.
Yes. They’re a dream to hunt with. Just wish they would offer something in a different configuration. Use their 6.7x magnification platform to come out with a 3-20x50. I would never buy another hunting scope.
Ilya's reviews and recommendation pushed me to try them and I ended up with 2. If you like nice glass and scopes it's perfect. I can't believe the discount on non-illuminated Magnus scopes last year, they were a steal.
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