Rifle Scopes LEO sniper in need of new glass.

I'm not qualified to answer a LEO question, but read this article today and gave Bushnell a lot more consideration as a budget friendly quality optic. It gets to 3.5x on the low end, which fits the billl. It's FFP, though. It's #9 in this article: https://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/09/19/tactical-scopes-field-test-results-summary/

edit: looks like it's discontinued. Maybe a used one or something else in the elite tactical line?
 
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I'm gonna chime in but this advice is worth as much as it cost... My understanding for LEO snipers is that 2nd Focal plane and illumination are standard. Knowing this and enjoying the best quality glass that my $$$ can afford I'm surprised that nobody has recommend Swarovski as a valid option. Their low power scopes are going to be top quality glass and can be had well under $1k. Even us tactical scope snobs are not going to turn our noses up at Swarovski....

Of course that doesn't mean their reticles or turrets are going to suit you but at least it is worth a look. Other options could be Sightron or if you can find an original Burris XTR (Gen 1) they are 2nd focal plane with decent turrets and mil dots.


ETA: Leica could be a quality option as well

 
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I for one have enjoyed this thread. While I agree with @THEIS about going to the sub forum and deleting this thread, personally I appreciate all of the input.

Bunch of good dudes on this site.

👍
 
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020619511?pid=961295 Has a plain mil hash with a fine dot crosshair very solid glass and very good turrets.

I'm on my 2nd one...reticle is borderline unusable below 8x, and almost invisible at 3-4x. Even at 10x, the reticle is too small. I have not figured out how they screwed up the reticle size so much, I can only assume the same assembly(?) is used across multiple scopes, including the 24x models. Even at 18x, the reticle doesn't fill the FOV, and at 3-4x basically disappears even in a perfect environment...add some background noise, and its useless. Add in the fact that illumination is not daylight bright, and you have an optic that is very difficult to use as anything other than a spotting scope on lower powers.
 
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What might be the farthest practical distance you might encounter? This might also narrow down the selection a bit. There would be no point in considering a $1500 scope if you would only encounter a target of up to 100 yards, for instance....Also, what would be your rules for engagement? If you were beyond a range of a certain distance, would you be required to move in to a closer distance to minimize liability, risk or collateral damage to bystanders?

What does distance have to do with the cost of a scope? I shot my best score at 1000 yards at 12x, couldn't use much more magnification due to the mirage in the 100 degree heat.
 
What does distance have to do with the cost of a scope? I shot my best score at 1000 yards at 12x, couldn't use much more magnification due to the mirage in the 100 degree heat.
Well this would be my personal opinion, but I think it would be totally ridiculous to buy a $1000+ scope for that close of a range usage. And completely unnecessary!
 
What does distance have to do with the cost of a scope? I shot my best score at 1000 yards at 12x, couldn't use much more magnification due to the mirage in the 100 degree heat.
So, it stands to reason that the farther out the engagement distance, the more clarity needed for both the shot and the PID. And that means both optical clarity and magnification, hence a better scope, hence more money.

Now, in this case, the answer of 3-400 yds gives a better understanding of what tier scope will do the job.
 
Well this would be my personal opinion, but I think it would be totally ridiculous to buy a $1000+ scope for that close of a range usage. And completely unnecessary!

So durability, quality of glass and internal components are of no consequence? Guess I was foolish to put a $1000+ scope on my .22 LR. Sure is nice to see the bullet hitting the target at 100 yards.
 
Well this would be my personal opinion, but I think it would be totally ridiculous to buy a $1000+ scope for that close of a range usage. And completely unnecessary!

Hi,

You do realize that "close of a range" is the operating distance realm of the LE Sniper deployment right?

Absolutely ZERO need for those guys to have high magnification optics. It would be like a roofer wanting to use an 8lb sledgehammer to put on shingles....Wrong Tool

And lets face it and be completely real with this thread....

The moment @Terry Cross replied this thread should have been closed and deleted. It is not like he doesn't teach LE Sniper stuff for a living, lol

Sincerely,
Theis
 
So, it stands to reason that the farther out the engagement distance, the more clarity needed for both the shot and the PID. And that means both optical clarity and magnification, hence a better scope, hence more money.

Now, in this case, the answer of 3-400 yds gives a better understanding of what tier scope will do the job.

So you're saying you needs lots of magnification to shoot long distance? That's odd since I'll usually zero a scope at 100 yards on max power, 25-30X, yet in a PRS type match I'm seldom over 20X. Guess I'm doing it all wrong.
 
So you're saying you needs lots of magnification to shoot long distance? That's odd since I'll usually zero a scope at 100 yards on max power, 25-30X, yet in a PRS type match I'm seldom over 20X. Guess I'm doing it all wrong.
Hey man, you asked a question and what you really wanted was a fight. Have it with someone else.
 
So durability, quality of glass and internal components are of no consequence? Guess I was foolish to put a $1000+ scope on my .22 LR. Sure is nice to see the bullet hitting the target at 100 yards.
Quality scopes can be purchased for less than that. No, it wasn't foolish for you to do that, it was your money. If his department wants to spring for high end glass, go for it. But it isn't required for just 3-400 yards.
 
Quality scopes can be purchased for less than that. No, it wasn't foolish for you to do that, it was your money. If his department wants to spring for high end glass, go for it. But it isn't required for just 3-400 yards.

Arnt most all LE engagements limited to 100 or so yrds?

The idea of this level of low budget, lest I even imagine the lack of initial and ongoing proficiency training, and the department being cool with 3MOA and telling a brand new shooter to go figure out his scope himself, because that’s not something that should have been covered in his “training” now add qualified immunity, shit... I really don’t need 308 rounds going through my windows when Todd tries to take a 300yrd shot at some crackhead down the street with his Wally World rifle/scope combo deal and a handful of bullets worth of training.

With this training climate and level of expertise, and seeing these guys are shooting at humans and around other humans, I’d hope they were majorly limited at the distance they can take a shot.
 
The scope doesn't make the shooter.... his skill does. I personally dont need high end glass to shoot 3/8 MOA or less at up 1000 yards with my stuff. I think a lot of shooters try to use more scope as a compensation for less skill. As many before me have already said in this thread, a high magnification scope at these closer ranges aren't necessary.
 
The scope doesn't make the shooter.... his skill does. I personally dont need high end glass to shoot 3/8 MOA or less at up 1000 yards with my stuff. I think a lot of shooters try to use more scope as a compensation for less skill. As many before me have already said in this thread, a high magnification scope at these closer ranges aren't necessary.

And where is the shooter going to get that training, the ammo, the classes, I mean the scope is peanuts compared to the ammo he’s going to run through and that’s not even counting proper training.

Seems the department has caviar sniper dreams on a cod budget.
 
Well I would hope he is fully trained and competent before they turn him loose on the streets. But yes, if they want to spring for high end components he should take advantage of what their budget will allow.
 
I don’t know if you found one yet but here’s my two cents. If I were in your shoes I would not hesitate to get a Nightforce NXS in first focal plane they’ve got a 2.5-10x45mm or a 5.5-22x50mm. The warranty is amazing as well if ever needed. The price point is anywhere from around 1500-1800. You can also choose from an arrangement of reticle options and illuminated reticle.
 
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This website has the most comprehensive database I have found.
 
This website has the most comprehensive database I have found.

That site rocks!
 
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I was just going to recommend Mile High Shooting. Our agency has purchased several items from them and they have always taken care of us.

Sometimes the best action is to pass on a new program if your agency is not going to fund it properly. When I started we had to buy all our own stuff but that was 25 years ago. Maybe you could get approval to buy your own scope to use on duty. Our agency issues ARs but we let our guys use quality red dots that we approve of that they can purchase on their own.

All I know is that you don't want to be wondering if your scope is holding zero while you are pressing the trigger on a bad guy.
I would do this. If they won't buy in full what you want, see how much they will give you a voucher/stipend for and pay the rest out of your own pocket to get something you trust. Make sure it's understood it is yours when you leave.
 
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what are the general thoughts on the vortex viper pst gen 2? everything i have seen is excellent and a neighboring agency conducted a tracking test and spoke well of it.
Several tested here

 
what are the general thoughts on the vortex viper pst gen 2? everything i have seen is excellent and a neighboring agency conducted a tracking test and spoke well of it.

I have two, one the 15x and the other the 25x, love em. They are light weight, which I like and works fine for their mission, but if you’re dragging and dropping or having to beat someone over the head with it, think that light weight MIGHT translate to being less forgiving when it comes to beating on the optic. The reticle is also great for a fast hold over, not too much shit, but just enough for a great FFP

Aandland also makes really nice covers and throw levers for them.
 
what are the general thoughts on the vortex viper pst gen 2? everything i have seen is excellent and a neighboring agency conducted a tracking test and spoke well of it.
I question the durability of the PST line, though I will tell you, lots of folks run them.
The durability question is why we chose the XTR II. The glass is certainly better in the PST, but the XTR II has a reputation for durability, the PST does not.
The PST is a Philippine made optic, as is the XTR and the Sig 5 series, which I linked to earlier.
Sig does have an LE program.
 
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I’d take a SIG Tango6, NF SHV, XTR II, Bushnell LRTSI 3-12, SWFA 3-15 or even a Razor 3-15 LHT HD over a PST Gen II.
Shit, I’d probably take an higher end Athlon made in China before a PST Gen II.
 
I'm not qualified to answer a LEO question, but read this article today and gave Bushnell a lot more consideration as a budget friendly quality optic. It gets to 3.5x on the low end, which fits the billl. It's FFP, though. It's #9 in this article: https://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/09/19/tactical-scopes-field-test-results-summary/

edit: looks like it's discontinued. Maybe a used one or something else in the elite tactical line?
It may be discontinued, but the DMR II Pro is a step up in glass quality with the same mechanical ruggedness. At a little over $1k, it's definitely a great value pick - but after reading the comments from other LEOs, I'm inclined to think a small smaller mag range of 2-10x or 3-15x with a simple illuminated SFP reticle might be the way to go. This thread has been incredibly informative.
 
agency price is $xxxx. probably too much but i will keep it in mind.
Not supposed to list these discounted prices, if you read the email it says that's the fastest way to end that program.

That said, NXS or NX8 if you go with them.

But for $1k I'd probably go with Vortex I guess.

SFP will bring the cost down and realistically for what you'd be doing with it that'd be fine. Maybe even desirable. I'll double down on that and say get a fixed 10x power too --that'll bring the cost down significantly IF you can find someone besides Hensoldt that still makes a good one. For the application, it's more than sufficient. USO used to, and USO would be another to look at.

I'd agree getting them to up the budget for a 20yr. investment BUT if it were me, I'd take into consideration how often that rifle has been used in the last 20 years too. If the answer is "never" then you gotta ask yourself if that's a good investment.

Trijicon may be another to look into.

I'd also look for scopes that are sacrifice low weight for quality. You aren't gonna be carrying this thing for hours on end so light weight isn't really a concern.
 
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Hi,

Geezus, lololol.....It takes 5 minutes searching issues with some of the scopes recommended. Issues that IF ever used in real life situation and anything; and I mean anything went wrong.......

The fact that you are asking recommendations based on budget alone is enough to have your Departments Insurance provider drop your entire Department.

Much less IF for heavens sake you go with one of these dumb suggestions of these "low dollar" scopes that takes a Defense lawyer 5 minutes of www to find out known/reported tracking issues, etc etc..............Nobody cares how good their warranty is when you are raising your right hand in court because you clipped the innocent person.

Sincerely,
Theis
There was one guy on here, another no-shit cop "sniper" that was feeling out replacing what he had --which was one of those POS integral night vision scopes, what, ATN maybe? A real fucking turd. But they paid out the ass for it. Wanted to upgrade and have similar capabilities. Didn't wanna hear about used KAC PVS30's coupled with an ATACR, was hellbent on pairing a PVS14 to something. The guy asking wasn't the shooter, he was the buyer, and didn't wanna hear shit but "top shelf, nearly free".

Is there ANY case where a shot was taken and the quality of the scope chosen became an issue? I don't know, I'm asking. I reckon it'd be good to know here.

The one where the caliber of a handgun was used to convict someone (10mm, loaded to kill, etc. bullshit) was overturned and I think the law amended to reflect that. AZ I think.

Also, IMO/E many mid tier optics today are better than 95% of shit available 20-30 years ago.

I think it's totally doable if you sacrifice weight, Horus reticles, illumination, maybe SFP or fixed, and keep it mid range mag. or around 10x. Something Vortex is probably gonna be the ideal choice in this respect but I haven't seen an NX8 up close. I think they still make the NXS in this range and it may be ideal. All three of these, Vortex Razor Gen2, NX8 and NXS have been used by army and navy SF on SCAR platforms so I think it'd be hard for anyone to argue they're "not good enough" in a court. Now that's some shit that would make me laugh.

I WOULD say look at used but that could very well be an issue.

Finally, I'd ask local businesses and local rich fuckers to maybe pitch in. Can't hurt to ask.

No, FINALLY I'd get ahold of Koshkin on here, the "Dark Lord of Optics" --I don't think anyone knows more about the various optic choices and how they compare, quality, etc., than him. I didn't look through all three pages but if he hasn't chimed in then that's who you need to talk to.
 
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No disrespect to anyone who posted here as this place is truly a treasure trove of information.

That being said, in order to narrow down and focus on what is truly important from a genuine expert in the field, I'd recommend the OP start at the beginning of this thread and read, then re-read the posts from @Terry Cross as this is more than enough solid info to make a wise, informed choice.
 
Several posts have been made above about tracking accuracy, mag range, reticles, weight of the scope,. . . . .

My opinion on what you should key on:

Reticles: Your reticle can be very basic and still perform 100% of the realistic duties you may be called on to perform.
If you are hell bent on going FFP for your work gun then reticle choice becomes a lot less important because you will not be able use any of the elements on the MF'r at low X anyway.

Tracking Accuracy: We train to consistently put elevation dope on the gun when possible to allow a POA/POI hold. If the scope tracks +/- 1 or 2%, you will still be golden inside the realm of engagement distances you work in. FAR MORE IMPORTANT is whether the internals of your scope can survive rough handling w/o zero shift! Can you fall down the fire escape stairs on your gun and still play?

Mag Range: Already covered above in previous posts.

DOF/Parallax: You need generous DOF and Parallax that is not picky. Some of the otherwise good scopes get stupid if you step even a little outside whatever distance your parallax is set for. Some are very forgiving.

Large and forgiving eye box: Exit pupil diameter and depth as large as possible. Some call it the "sweet spot" behind the scope.
Jacked up shooting positions, long stretches on the glass, having to build a position with your other shoulder/eye, having to deploy with gas mask, . . . . . Best glass in the world doesn't matter when you can't get in and stay in a clear sight picture.

Weight: IMHO it doesn't matter on a work gun. 2 things- - At the moment you take your shot, every ounce on the gun is your friend. and increased weight usually comes from increased mass and material density of the components which is usually directly related to how much abuse the scope can survive without zero shifts or other internal failures. Lighter weight can correlate to less survivability from impacts, transportation vibrations, etc. (see last part of Tracking Accuracy above).

Rings/Mounting system: This is often the weak link in the chain. I have seen ton's of excellent optics fail due to poor mounting components or incorrectly installed mounting components. DON'T SKIMP ON RINGS and/or BASE.

./
 
No disrespect to anyone who posted here as this place is truly a treasure trove of information.

That being said, in order to narrow down and focus on what is truly important from a genuine expert in the field, I'd recommend the OP start at the beginning of this thread and read, then re-read the posts from @Terry Cross as this is more than enough solid info to make a wise, informed choice.

I was trying to finish my last post when you posted this.

I hate it looks like I had to post something because my name came up, so I will throw in that everything I know comes from @j-huskey and I watching untold hours of YouTube as well as listening to PodCasts and soaking up all the goodness at ARF.com.

./
 
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I wish some of the 2-2.5-10-15s that have come out would have a FFP reticle with a little more concern toward use at 2x. The Weaver 2-10 did ok. Most of the reticles going into the 2-10 "tactical scopes" are more geared towards long range precision, and better suited to higher magnifications scopes. One of the big limiting factors with FFP is the broad range we see in variable power scopes now. 2-25 you are going to have to make a serious compromise on one end or the other.
What about something like the primary arms glx 2.5-10? It is one I have had my eyes on and seems to check all the boxes. Not having run one for any length of time I would have no idea on durability, but it seems like you have a couple of reticle options that would work fine up close to 1000 yards if need be. We have had a few people say the glass was surprisingly good, but the durability I have not heard from anyone with a lot of time on one.
 
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What about something like the primary arms glx 2.5-10? It is one I have had my eyes on and seems to check all the boxes. Not having run one for any length of time I would have no idea on durability, but it seems like you have a couple of reticle options that would work fine up close to 1000 yards if need be. We have had a few people say the glass was surprisingly good, but the durability I have not heard from anyone with a lot of time on one.
I don't like it. Field of view, 35ft, my 3-12 LRHS has a bigger FOV than that. 2-10 scope i want 50ft plus. The SWFA ultra light is one that might get a pass, 2.5-10 around 48ft FOV, three posts are heavy the vertical stadia with hold overs is thinner, and 9.5 ounces.

Reticle options are crap, With the stupid chevron, and no wind holds on the zero line, but we have turrets to dial. (y) :ROFLMAO: Not my cup anyway.
 
a couple of reticle options that would work fine up close to 1000 yards if need be.

Historically, such an engagement range has never been close to being required by civilian law enforcement, as recorded in the Guiness Book of Records and SWAT association cite this range.

What is known that a marksman with a standard military issue iron sight Beretta M9 can successfully reach out and put a bad guy face down in the dirt 20 yards beyond the average sniper engagement .


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#2: SERIOUSLY consider a SFP scope for your work gun. (I am 1000% open to any debate against my recommendation).

#3: Whatever you choose, make sure you have a wide FOV and low X on the bottom end. This is where you live and die on a work gun. If I could wave a magic wand and make it happen, I would instantly remove half of the magnification off most LE scopes and remove an inch off the stock's LOP.
Hi Terry,

Not debating you in any manner.

Would appreciate if you would be willing to elaborate on the points #2 & #3 shared above.

Thank you sir.
 
Point 2. SFP.

Given the above, and several like it... being able to see the crosshair on the lowest power in low light, street light, flashing lights, other distorted lights that negate night vision units, SFP beats the FFP reticle options that are the rave right now.
FFP or SFP plain mildots that keep a visible crosshair simple AND centered in the reticle are much preferred by ME and TC when we are looking at a human being we just might have to stop.
It's a different ballgame after you look at the first three or four, and realize the equipment isn't working... some people cant take our word for it, and have to find out for themselves, often, the hard way. Between TC and I, we gave over 50 years experience in this game,
AND, we are both still learning, something new every day.

And then.
I have FFP tree reticle scopes on the 338 's and 375 's, that we shoot LR and ELR. And, a couple of the sniper teams went FFP and tree....
So...
Having access to 1500 acres of cropland plagued by pigs, welcome to a real test of highX FFP trees in low light on fast moving small targets.
They fail.... every sniper that has been to those "training" sessions, has found the limitations of those units. Even aided by quality clip on NV units.

Me, got one 338 wearing a 3-12 S&B PMII... once the guys use it, they understand. Then it's up to @Terry Cross to train them around the fail points.
My teams have found their niche units in the nxs offerings.
They arent for everybody, it took me 35 years to get the bean counters to spring for AI-AT and nxs.

It's still no problem to do the job with a 30 year old rem700 and leup 3.5-10 mildot, or a 50 year old model 70 and a 30 year old leupold.
Or a FN, or even a Savage... and many of the scopes out there, as long as you can see the crosshairs in low light/no light and make that precision shot, on demand with the gear you have.

(Yes, the old R700 and model 70 are still available to show the guys, this old shit still works just fine. )

Best to all yall.
vr
 
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As noted previously, CALL MILE HIGH.
Talk to their LE dudes. They know wtf they’re talking about. A Nightforce NXS or NX8 are both well under your $2k threshold w/ your LE discount and they will work with you on pricing.

Call them and save yourself from this dumpster fire of a thread.
 
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With a budget of about $1000, you are limited, but take a look at the Nightforce SHV F1. 4-14x50, First Focal plane, Mil-R or MOAR reticle (just the center is illuminated) and capped windage, or the 3-10x42 SFP with MOAR & moa/moa. They're reasonably tough, but not to the level of the NXS. Tracking was surprisingly good for Phillipines (IIRC) construction.

I have great success with my SFP NXS 2.5-10x24 with NPR2 using the reticle or turrets to go from 50 out to 400yds. 100yd zeros and up 1.5moa to 50 or 200, up 4 for 300 and up 7.5 for 400.
 
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Hi,

@j-huskey

To be honest I cannot for the life of me understand how/why this thread is still being discussed; much less still up publicly.

Not that people should not discuss whatever they want to discuss but the pure fact as to HOW/WHY it came into discussion in this instance.

The OP has gotten absolute "get this" suggestions from some of the most knowledgeable members on this very subject the forum has to offer but yet keeps going on with "What about this" and "What does everyone think about this", etc etc.....

Eastern EU has been boring...not really but sorta, lolol
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So this came to me in group PM today and it is definitely too good to NOT post in this thread, lol

1619623798588.png


This is what I will do though....When OP gets his equipment lined out. I will pay the tuition cost for him to attend any @Terry Cross course he goes to this year.

Sincerely,
Theis