Rifle Scopes Leveling a scope on a Savage..Reference spot for level??

[dondlhmn]

I suppose this question has been addressed somewhere on here before, but I'll be danged if I can find it. What I am wondering is if there is a good, RELIABLE place on the Savage 10 action somewhere to use as a reference point for leveling a scope. I have measured from several spots for level reference, but none of them produce a level scope in the long run....heck I can "eyeball" it closer than I can measure it on that particular action!!

So..what/where have any of you found to be a good, reliable spot for reference on those actions? Other actions don't seem to be so hard to find a good level place to go from. I know I can do it by eyeball, but IN THEORY, it will come out to be more accurately level if I use all the measurement/bubble level tricks to do the mounting. Suggestions, anyone???

 

[Frosty1212]

Why not use the top of your scope base?

Have you seen the Badger scope tool? It is a rail milled into a triangle base with a built in level and threaded feet. I am a tool junky.

 

[dondlhmn]

ARGH!! I just took a look at a Yahoo video of some numb nut mounting a scope on a Savage. He just set the rifle in a plastic holder, leveled the scope and tightened it down. He did a lot of stuff right (EXCEPT for the NOISE...uh...I mean "music" on the video) and I'm pretty sure he got the scope level with the ground/earth at that moment, but who knows where the rifle was in reference to level...?? Maybe where he would hold it or maybe not...the rifle could have been cocked or upside down...BUT the scope was level!! I guess some people just don't get the level gun thing and how important it is to have everything level/square as you engage targets at various distances...unless maybe they develop a zero for each distance that includes moving the windage knob even when there is no wind!! Some "expert", huh?

 

[Lowlight]

the rifle can be canted and the scope level to the fall of gravity and it works fine.

A level gun with a level scope only works if you hold it level, which we naturally cant the rifle so you can use that cant to your advantage.

it's been discussed a 100x here, you just the level the scope to the fall of gravity, the gun doesn't matter. Look at the Tubb Rifles they have mounting points at 5 and 10 degrees offset.

 

[dondlhmn]

Why not use the top of your scope base?

Have you seen the Badger scope tool? It is a rail milled into a triangle base with a built in level and threaded feet. I am a tool junky.

The reason for not using the top of the scope base is that scope bases can be out of true enough to be "unlevel" or "unsquare" with the rest of the rifle (just take a look at how much "slop" there is between bases, screws and the top of the receiver....its called manufacturing tolerances). The scope has to be level EVERY TIME you shoot (or, if it isn't level, it must be held the same way....same degree of crooked), and should be parallel and square with the bore...not to mention absolutely straight above it. If not, it is way too easy for the shooter to induce inaccuracies and the impact point will wander. I don't want to wonder..I want to KNOW FOR SURE!! Maybe this is just being anal or being a freaky machinist that worries about this kind of stuff, but I tend to shoot out there a ways in the matches I shoot. The farther out there the target, the more important this sort of stuff becomes.....I'll have a look at the badger tool. Thanks!

 

[dondlhmn]

the rifle can be canted and the scope level to the fall of gravity and it works fine.

A level gun with a level scope only works if you hold it level, which we naturally cant the rifle so you can use that cant to your advantage.

it's been discussed a 100x here, you just the level the scope to the fall of gravity, the gun doesn't matter. Look at the Tubb Rifles they have mounting points at 5 and 10 degrees offset.

All very true, but you still have to hold the rifle EXACTLY (same degree of cant) the same every time for accuracy at changing distances and us humans just are not very accurate at doing that....and THAT is the reason a lot of guys use a level attached to the gun when engaging targets at various distances. PERSONALLY, I don't much like a level attached to the gun for anything but training and development of correct habits, as it is way too likely to be either damaged or knocked out of "true", resulting in the shooter trying to rely on a poor measure or reference of level.

A second problem (which I do not, nor do most civilian marksmen, have) is that if everything on every weapon ALL shooters in the group may possibly pick up are not carefully set up to be as identical as possible, the zeros will possibly be WAAY off for each shooter as the may not hold the weapon the same way...(sorry, but my background leads me to think this way, even after being retired for more than 2 decades..)

 

[Lowlight]

Noise..

I have no clue about shooting far out a ways, so you should do it how you feel comfortable

 

[dylanmj]

dondlhmn, not sure if your question isn't worded well, or you aren't getting the concept that LL is talking about.

As the barrel and bullet are both theoretically round, it doesn't matter whether the rifle is level to the ground or canted to one side or the other, since there are no directional forces acting on the flight of the projectile given position of the rifle. The barrel and gravity/wind will act in the same way on the launch and flight of the bullet, even if the rifle is upside down.

So long as the reticle is plumb and level to the earth, your dope zero has been re-established for a specific cant angle for the rifle, and the same cant angle is held for each shot, then your dope will still be correct regardless of the rifle's cant.

If you are asking how does one ensure that the scope and whatever apparatus you use are plumb/level to the earth and each other, I would suggest using a plumb bob or laser crosshair level to first adjust the reticle into perfect plumbness, and then set your level to match that. There is of course a problem if you use a rail mounted level vs. a scope mounted unit, since then the rifle has to either be level with the scope, or you have to start using a gradiated level like what Accuracy 1st does.

Hope that helps

 

[dondlhmn]

dondlhmn, not sure if your question isn't worded well, or you aren't getting the concept that LL is talking about.

As the barrel and bullet are both theoretically round, it doesn't matter whether the rifle is level to the ground or canted to one side or the other, since there are no directional forces acting on the flight of the projectile given position of the rifle. The barrel and gravity/wind will act in the same way on the launch and flight of the bullet, even if the rifle is upside down.

So long as the reticle is plumb and level to the earth, your dope zero has been re-established for a specific cant angle for the rifle, and the same cant angle is held for each shot, then your dope will still be correct regardless of the rifle's cant.
/QUOTE]

That is all true ONLY IF you shoot at the same distance ALL THE TIME, but it won't work for varying distances. Maybe I was clear on this or didn't even mention it, but it appears there are a lot of people that don't get the concept of why things have to be all level for shots fired at targets at varying distances as is done in the real world. As a demonstration, taken to an extreme to make the effect more apparent...try mounting your scope at, say 20 degrees off of level. Now go out and zero it at, say 200 yards (and you will be able to do this). Next, do the ballistic calcs for the vertical corrections required for shooting out to 400, 600, 800 and 1000 yards. Next, go and crank in the elevation changes for each of those target distances and shoot three rounds at each target, being careful for each shot to hold the scope's reticle level and at the same angle as all previous shots as mentioned in the above quote. You will note that, as the distances get longer and longer, the rounds impact further and further from the vertical center line of the target. Now, you CAN keep the impacts on the target's vertical center line IF YOU CRANK IN the required lateral (windage) corrections. If you don't believe any of this is true, go try it yourself. Once you have tried it and see what I am talking about here, it will suddenly become important to you to have everything RIGHT if you want to be able to engage targets accurately at varying distances and have your shots at all distances strike on the vertical center line of the target.

If that is all too much trouble for you, just ask the guys at the Ballistic Research Labs at Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD what they have to say about it. If you can't get hold of them or don't know any of them because you have never spent years there, try asking the guys at the AMU at Benning. Even though I was only around those guys for six months, I am pretty sure what they will have to say. Just for the fun of it, after you talk to them, let me know what they had to say in light of DECADES of scientific research and experimentation.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

Looks like there are a lot of people that don't get the concept of why things have to be all level. As a demonstration, taken to an extreme to make the effect more apparent...try mounting your scope at, say 20 degrees off of level. Now go out and zero it at, say 200 yards. Next, do the ballistic calcs for the vertical corrections required for shooting out to 400, 600, 800 and 1000 yards. Next, go and crank in the elevation changes for each of those target distances and shoot three rounds at each target, being careful for each shot to hold the scope's reticle at the same angle as all previous shots. You will note that, as the distances get longer and longer, the rounds impact further and further from the vertical center line of the target. Now, you CAN keep the impacts on the target's vertical center line IF YOU CRANK IN the required lateral (windage) corrections. If you don't believe any of this is true, go try it yourself. Once you have tried it and see what I am talking about here, it will suddenly become important to you to have everything RIGHT if you want to be able to engage targets accurately at varying distances and have your shots at all distances strike on the vertical center line of the target.

No, as long as the reticle is plumb with the earth it doesn't matter if the rifle is Fing sideways.

 

[dylanmj]

I do shoot with my rifle canted, not a 20 degree cant, but a cant all the same. It fits into my shoulder pocket better with a little rotation off verticle. My reticle has been leveled. I can dial up and down a 1000 yard range all day long and get consistent hits.

It sounds like you are talking about reticle cant, and if your reticle is canted, then yes, you will see the exact results you describe- even if you keep the reticle canted at exactly the same angle.

Here is a whole thread regarding trying to calculate your dope when the reticle must be canted because the shot requires that happen.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ed-during-stages-how-do-you-guys-do-math.html

 

[dondlhmn]

I do shoot with my rifle canted, not a 20 degree cant, but a cant all the same. It fits into my shoulder pocket better with a little rotation off verticle. My reticle has been leveled. I can dial up and down a 1000 yard range all day long and get consistent hits.

It sounds like you are talking about reticle cant, and if your reticle is canted, then yes, you will see the exact results you describe- even if you keep the reticle canted at exactly the same angle.

Here is a whole thread regarding trying to calculate your dope when the reticle must be canted because the shot requires that happen.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ed-during-stages-how-do-you-guys-do-math.html

Yes...reticle cant does enter into it VERY easily if the bore/rifle and the scope are not perfectly parallel and level FOR ME and that is why I want to get this set up as precise as possible. (I did use a radically canted scope/reticle on the NRA Any sight Hunter Pistol guns I used to shoot and did it quite successfully....see various state Master Class championshps/Nationals and national records (still standing.) You are very lucky that you can hold the rifle canted consistently and hit a target at varying distances and I am going to guess that you don't have to switch rifles often for dictates of different rules, different games, different calibers and etc., as they all feel different. I can't do that, as I naturally tend to level the rifle (ANY and EVERY rifle I shoot), leading to a possible canted scope if the leveling hasn't been done precisely. So, if I see the reticle isn't level when I hold the rifle level, then the next thing I do is to level the reticle. What I want to do is level everything when I mount the scope to give me the best chance of hitting my targets at varying distances, which requires consistency of hold (among a bunch of other things) and the least time lost and the fewest distractions, ESPECIALLY ones I can do away with through consistent leveling/scope mounting across my spectrum of platforms. What I am attempting to do is to give myself the best chance with the least number of steps or disturbances to my natural instinct (due to a lot of training) to attempt to hold the rifle level. I have a tough time tilting the rifle to get the reticle level as that is a distraction for me and I want to give myself every possible break, especially since I SHOOT SEVERAL RIFLES and the best way to make them produce consistent results (trajectories) is to have them ALL set up dead level.

SO, ANYWAY...enough theory and debate and communication/accurate articulation (or lack thereof in my case) of problems/solutions/concepts/theories and back to my original question....Does anyone know of a good, reliable spot on the Savage model 10 rifles that can be used as a reference?

 

[dylanmj]

Some people call it a theory, and others call it trajectory calculation and physics. The laser level/plumb bob will still give you all the answers to level the reticle for YOUR needs, no matter how YOU hold the rifle.

Good luck on your search for the perfect level reference point if that is what you must have.

Was just trying to help

 

[Sandbogg]

Not that I think it is the issue, but maybe you should reconsider your action if the rail is that far out of level!?

Personally I would level off the rail and get to shooting!

 

[dondlhmn]

Some people call it a theory, and others call it trajectory calculation and physics. The laser level/plumb bob will still give you all the answers to level the reticle for YOUR needs, no matter how YOU hold the rifle.

Good luck on your search for the perfect level reference point if that is what you must have.

Was just trying to help

Yeah...thanks for the help and the good luck wishes. It would sure be a lot easier if I weren't so anal about this leveling thing....but it has worked VERY well for me in a wide variety of shooting situations with a variety of guns and I really don't want to change now. I guess I could just get off my lazy butt and look at/measure it as I am going to take off the scope currently on it to put it on a Remmy 700/Krieger barrel 6.5 Swede project that we are building next week. That will mess up my zeroes so taking it out of the stock and doing some close looking won't make it any worse, I guess. Anyway....gotta go watch the Falcons and Saints.....THEORY is the Saints will kick the Falcons' butts, but that is just theory ....we will have to see what happens TONIGHT!! Thanks again!

 

[local4fitter]

If you naturally hold the rifle level, then I think you should get into shooting position and look through your scope at a plumb bob string and match your reticle to the string. Done. Now every time you get into your natural shooting position your retical will be perfectly level.

 

[dondlhmn]

Hey....I finally figured it out with the help of some consultations with people that know way more about this optics/scope stuff than I do. Leveling the rifle is NOT necessary during the mounting process, but having it all square/true/precise as possible is important. I tend to look at what works best FOR ME in the end result and have, therefore, been overlooking one (now) stupidly simple technique when it comes to getting a scope mounted level to the action/bore. An old acquaintance pointed out to me that if one uses a GOOD collimator for reference when mounting, it can be done VERY EASILY and accurately. A method to see how accurate a given collimator is and the way you mount it to the gun is, once the whole mounting process is pretty much done, just remove and replace the collimator several times, checking to see if the reticle's center falls in the same spot on the collimator each time. The closer it falls to the same spot each time, the better/more accurate your collimator and your mounting technique/consistency is. (If you care.) The thing is that the scope has to be set to its lateral (windage) internal zero BEFORE you do any mounting/looking/adjusting, but that is where the "catch" is....the scope's windage zero (that spot where the turret is set to the center of its TOTAL travel left/right HAS TO BE PRECISE and not be off to one side or the other. This will only work if the scope is accurate in that regard and that can be checked (optically vs. mechanically) with the mirror method. Once everything is good there, all you have to do is to mount the scope somewhat loosely in order that it can be rotated to the point where the vertical line(s) in the collimator agree with the vertical cross hair. The "trick" (at least in my mind) is that you do NOT want to make any windage adjustments with the windage knob to get those two items to agree....you have to kind of go back and forth between the two and tip the collimator and the scope in increments until they coincide.......NEVER making any adjustments with the turrets as you go through that process. Well, DUH!!! NOW THAT I GET IT, I am amazed....and it all makes perfect sense to me!! Vortex says that their scopes (as I believe is true of most manufacturer's scopes) are shipped after being set to the windage (optical) zero.....but I guess I'll have to check and set the one I have, as it has been handled by several people and I know that every knob on it has been cranked to who-knows-where now!!!

Oh, yeah...and then after all this, which will get you pretty much set right, you have to go shoot the ting to get everything zeroed accurately and set up for the way YOU hold/shoot, not to mention getting the vertical zero set (which you should have already set to be pretty close, anyway!!)

Anyway, I appreciate the comments/suggestions you all have made in response to my questions/ruminations, as they have all been helpful and thought provoking, leading me to explore this subject in fairly great detail in a lot of directions. Not to mention that now, in my own little anal world, I can be happy !!!

 

[George63]

to the OP - as analytical as you talk, you certainly lack any intuition, if you could not find the flat spot on the action ( the mag cutout ) - just set the dismounted action on a builders type level resting at the mag cutout - that gives a level action, then use whatever method you care for to level the reticle ( I always line it up with the garage door header across the street )

 

[dondlhmn]

to the OP - as analytical as you talk, you certainly lack any intuition, if you could not find the flat spot on the action ( the mag cutout ) - just set the dismounted action on a builders type level resting at the mag cutout - that gives a level action, then use whatever method you care for to level the reticle ( I always line it up with the garage door header across the street )

I can appreciate your comments on intuition, and I have been relying upon my (quite good, actually....according to many, many observers) intuition for many years to help me figure things out.....BUT having been around the block a LOT of times (and not the same block over and over, either), I now realize that, while intuition can often be a quick and helpful way to solve a problem, it can also give you an answer that gives you warm fuzzies, that looks and feels right, but is WRONG...sometimes just a little wrong and sometimes COMPLETELY WRONG. Sadly, in a small percentage of instances that wrong answer can cost you injury or your life, but most often a wrong answer only causes you a red face. IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE, I have the luxury of this NOT being in any way, shape or form time constrained or an emergency, resulting in my having lots and lots of time to look, measure, calculate, ask questions, get opinions and then apply all of those, tempered with logic, to find the (hopefully correct) answer to the problem at hand, not to mention possibly learning some things along the way.

It is not my intent to try to embarrass you in this forum, but if you don't believe me when I say that intuition can give you some VERY wrong answers, no matter how right they seem, PM me with your phone number and I will give you some examples.

Oh...and while the magazine cut out MAY be square and perpendicular, And it CAN BE SO, I've never seen any guarantees that is always true, given stock pressures, manufacturing tolerances, varying designs for whatever reason and etc. and I have not checked to see if it is in this case or not. Apparently you missed the post where I plainly stated that I have not yet gotten off my (lazy) butt and closely examined the thing by taking it all apart. Rather, I have tried asking a bunch of questions of many people in various places and hopefully getting some thought-provoking answers. (Which I did, BTW)

I, like you, use the buildings around me to check for correctly oriented recticles, but I use mostly the vertical edges and/or corners (which I do ASSUME are truly plumb) on them, thus taking out of the picture any possible error induced by perspective if my position is not 90 degrees to a horizontal line on a building.

Anyway..thanks for your ideas and suggestions!

 

[Spladle160]

I just stumbled upon this old thread and am curios how the fact you need your bore directly below your optics line of sight or your windage is only good at your zero distance never seemed to come up. This is why for me my scope get's leveled on a level rifle. Is it a big deal? Probably not for most. Assuming your bore was 1/8", which would be a LOT, to the side of your optics line of site and you zero at a reasonable distance of 100 yards then you would only be off 1" of windage at 800 yards. it's hard to get too excited about that. But... if you're zeroing at 25yds with the same 1/8" offset you're off 2" at 200 yards and for most/many, that's unacceptable.

 

[Steel head]

 

[E. Bryant]

I just stumbled upon this old thread and am curios how the fact you need your bore directly below your optics line of sight or your windage is only good at your zero distance never seemed to come up. This is why for me my scope get's leveled on a level rifle. Is it a big deal? Probably not for most. Assuming your bore was 1/8", which would be a LOT, to the side of your optics line of site and you zero at a reasonable distance of 100 yards then you would only be off 1" of windage at 800 yards. it's hard to get too excited about that. But... if you're zeroing at 25yds with the same 1/8" offset you're off 2" at 200 yards and for most/many, that's unacceptable.

Who zeros their rifle at 25 yards?

If a reasonably small lateral offset exists, any effects can be determined and considered as dope is gathered at longer distances. We don't just zero at some unreasonably short distance, lock the windage knob, and start blasting away at longer distances without further refinement. Or at least we don't do that if we actually expect to hit anything...

 

[Spladle160]

folks shooting squirrels with a .22 will commonly zero at 25 or 33yds looking for max dead hold on a squirrel. Beyond that it's terrible practice and this was intended to point that out.

I'm sorry but adding complexity to make uo for doing something wrong is not good practice.

Why on earth would you use adjustments to correct for something you simply could have prevented by doing something correct to begin with. Do you have 4 lines on your dope card? Distance, Drop, windage, and I can't level a scope correction factor?

 

[Lowlight]

Already been discuss to the point of nausea

you don’t know how to shoot so stop telling us how to set up a rifle you don’t know what you don’t know and trying to explain your empty vase

 

[bluegrasspicker]

That's why I use mils.




[Couldn't help it, please don't ban me]

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Laughing,... I don't give a shit how the scope sets on the rifle, as long as the erector is plumb when I dial up an pull the trigger. Just because the ret is plumb & level does not mean the erector is as well. Get it level as you can get then dial up 60 moa or 18 mills it the bullet cuts you plumb line ob the target, gold,...if not correct it. Course that only holds water if you don't allow for Spin drift with that amount of up dialed in,...

 

[Spladle160]

Dang, didn't know this was that kind of a forum. I feel like I shoot just fine and I never told anyone what they had to do on their rifle. What did I say that was factually incorrect. Attacked by a "staff member"? very welcoming.

 

[Lowlight]

LOL Not just a staff members but the creator

Sorry the squirrels at 25 yards really got me thinking, boy this is important

 

[Spladle160]

Obviously your house your rules. You can treat people as you see fit and keep the company you see fit.

 

[Lowlight]

You don't seem to understand people are not canting the scope because of the mounting they are canting the scope because the rifle is incorrectly set up for them.

Do you leave the seats and mirrors on your car where the dealer had them or do you adjust them for YOU the driver?

We are not built straight, so people who level their scope and rifle to each other will often subconsciously roll the rifle over. That creates the variations downrange by a factor multiplied by the range.

A purposely canted scope 2 degrees, held straight by the shooter will only be offset by .6" at 1000 yards. If you can't a Straight set up, rifle and scope 2 degrees will result in a 10" variation at 1000 yards. I know that .6" will be inside my group size, 10" will be off the plate.

So what is more important, telling everyone how great your scope mounting skills are, or hitting the target. The scope and rifle relationship is much more forgiving than your realize, we are the problem.

 

[Spladle160]

I understand what you're saying and said the same thing by pointing out that if you were a monstrous 1/8" off from line of sight being over your bore you would still only be 2" at 800 yards with a 100 yard zero. I didn't run the Pythagorean theorem to calculate how far out you are with your 2° cant but couldn't without knowing the height of your scope and your zero distance. The indian is virtually always going to be a larger factor than the arrow. I know precisely, or can calculate given all the pertinent variables how much misalignment will affect POI vs POA.

 

[Schütze]

I understand what you're saying and said the same thing by pointing out that if you were a monstrous 1/8" off from line of sight being over your bore you would still only be 2" at 800 yards with a 100 yard zero. I didn't run the Pythagorean theorem to calculate how far out you are with your 2° cant but couldn't without knowing the height of your scope and your zero distance. The indian is virtually always going to be a larger factor than the arrow. I know precisely, or can calculate given all the pertinent variables how much misalignment will affect POI vs POA.

There are Indians who listen and learn from the Chief because it is his profession.... and they make their arrow hit the as a result of this. And then there are Indians who just like to argue

 

[Long Range 338]

There are Indians who listen and learn from the Chief because it is his profession.... and they make their arrow hit the as a result of this. And then there are Indians who just like to argue

First day and already correcting the teacher. Uh, they grow up so fast!

 

[Shootin Stuff]

Not that it makes a lick of difference to your accuracy, but you aren’t much of a “freaky anal machinist” if you can’t figure out how to level a rifle and scope combo without flats.....

 

[Schütze]

First day and already correcting the teacher. Uh, they grow up so fast!

You clearly misunderstood, I would never correct the teacher because he is always right.
Thanks to him I am able to learn and apply every advice (scope leveling incl.) directly to my
shooting rifles. I have not read one post on HIS website that wouldn’t make sense and I think
he may get tiered of explaining something so easy to understand then scope leveling to guys
who have to overthink everything and do not listen