leveling the gun & scope

[Outlaw45]

What's the best way to level my gun, scope, and bubble level? I have a Stiller action in a A5 with a nightforce on top. I put a level on the scope base and leveled the gun, then put the scope on and put a level on the top of the turret. Then I put on a anti-cant level and leveled that to the level on the scope. When the anti-cant is level the gun feels canted. Shot out to 1000 yards today so I guess its ok.

How do you recommend I level a rem700 sporter with Leupold turn-in bases? There's no flat spots on the gun to put a level.

 

[T2CH]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

Use a plumb bob about 50 yds away. Shoulder the rifle in the position most likely to shoot from and level the scope reticle to the plumb bob. Tighten it down.

 

[Mauser34]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

The scope doesn't have to be leveled to the rifle. It has to be leveled to the world. The way i like to do it is I put the rifle in the pocket of my shoulder and hold it comfortably and relaxed in whatever position you intend on shooting from. Then i have a buddy level the scope to the world. No matter how you hole the rifle the bullet comes out the same way.

 

[Mike]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The scope doesn't have to be leveled to the rifle. It has to be leveled to the world. The way i like to do it is I put the rifle in the pocket of my shoulder and hold it comfortably and relaxed in whatever position you intend on shooting from. Then i have a buddy level the scope to the world. No matter how you hole the rifle the bullet comes out the same way.</div></div>

Not quite.

If you tilt your rifle at a 45* angle (exaggerated for point) and your scope is leveled "to the earth", you're going to miss a lot of targets when you try and shoot at distance.

The scope should be leveled to the rifle and the entire unit leveled to the earth.

 

[cowbuyu]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

FYI, Lin Shriver makes a dandy set of machined sliding wedges to place between the rail or top of the mount and the bottom of the scope erector housing while tightening the scope mount rings. It absolutely squares the scope to the rifle. Then you can place a small level on top of the elevation knob to level the rifle and scope as you tighten your cant level in place. Works like a charm.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The scope doesn't have to be leveled to the rifle. It has to be leveled to the world. The way i like to do it is I put the rifle in the pocket of my shoulder and hold it comfortably and relaxed in whatever position you intend on shooting from. Then i have a buddy level the scope to the world. No matter how you hole the rifle the bullet comes out the same way.</div></div>

Not quite.

If you tilt your rifle at a 45* angle (exaggerated for point) and your scope is leveled "to the earth", you're going to miss a lot of targets when you try and shoot at distance.

<span style="color: #CC0000">The scope should be leveled to the rifle and the entire unit leveled to the earth.</span> </div></div>

Doesn't that translate to the whole thing being level to the earth then? This would have seemed logical to me but in reading the threads posted on by LL and his comments on Tubbs it was suggested that it's ok to have cant in the rifle (within reason) as long as the scope is level to ground. The logic that LL posted was that your adjustments will be true (if reading off reticle) only if scope is level to earth but regarding the rifle, it's more important to get repeatable, NPA in the rifle than for it to be perfectly level to the earth.

Might have to revisit those threads to refresh.

 

[Drgonzo_1981]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

I use a set of levels that I bought from cabelas, think are wheeler brand. One sits on the interior of the receiver and the level portion hangs out of the ejection port, it sits on the raceway I think. Then the second level sits on the scope. I level the rifle out then the scope and tighten it down and torque it. Then I will level my acd to the scope. It does look off when you look through it, but take some shots at 1000 with making it level by eyeballing and then with acd. You will see the effect and how much your eye is off.

 

[Mike]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The scope doesn't have to be leveled to the rifle. It has to be leveled to the world. The way i like to do it is I put the rifle in the pocket of my shoulder and hold it comfortably and relaxed in whatever position you intend on shooting from. Then i have a buddy level the scope to the world. No matter how you hole the rifle the bullet comes out the same way.</div></div>

Not quite.

If you tilt your rifle at a 45* angle (exaggerated for point) and your scope is leveled "to the earth", you're going to miss a lot of targets when you try and shoot at distance.

<span style="color: #CC0000">The scope should be leveled to the rifle and the entire unit leveled to the earth.</span> </div></div>

Doesn't that translate to the whole thing being level to the earth then? This would have seemed logical to me but in reading the threads posted on by LL and his comments on Tubbs it was suggested that it's ok to have cant in the rifle (within reason) as long as the scope is level to ground. The logic that LL posted was that your adjustments will be true (if reading off reticle) only if scope is level to earth but regarding the rifle, it's more important to get repeatable, NPA in the rifle than for it to be perfectly level to the earth.

Might have to revisit those threads to refresh.</div></div>

Yes, to a point. What LL also meant is that most all scopes have an "allowance" for a variation of a few degrees; usually not perceivable in average shooters.

When the rifle and vertical center line of the scope is in alignment, as the erector goes up and down it remains in alignment with the rifle. If you angled a rifle (again using 45* as an exaggeration) and zero'd it, yes it would be zero'd but as you tried and put dope on the rifle the mechanical offset of the scope mounted on top of the rifle would not remain in center line to the bore causing extra windage to be dialed to remain on center.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

completely forgot about MO. So the take away is that there is a level of 'give' in ho much the scope/rifle can be out of alignment but not more than that as MO will work against you once you get to greater distances...?

 

[Mike]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">completely forgot about MO. So the take away is that there is a level of 'give' in ho much the scope/rifle can be out of alignment but not more than that as MO will work against you once you get to greater distances...?</div></div>

That is my understanding.

 

[dwtaylorpdx]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

So if the gun has say 5 degrees of tilt in it because it comfortably fits me, and the scope is level to the world, then the relation ships between the scope and bore is constant.

I think the bit not stated is that if you don't mount the gun consistently to your shoulder, and keep the scope level, it will affect your accuracy if your trying to add windage or elevation, and be more evident at longer distance.

I used to have one of those goofy side mounts for a model 94..
Killed a lot of jacks and deer with it. Had about 15 degrees of difference between the scope and gun so I could shoot it... YMMV

Dave

 

[Fester47]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

I use a deck of playing cards to shim between the flat of the scope and top of the scope base. This only works with a one piece flat top base and if your scope has a flat bottom to go off of. The reticle always looks level to me anyway.

 

[Outlaw45]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

Thanks for all the replies. Yes my thought was when I dial for long range.

So if the scope is level to the ground and when I shoulder the gun at an angle (say 5 degrees). The differnce is the lateral offset between the center line of the bore and the center line of the scope. Right?

If the scope is level to the gun and the gun is angled slightly (5 degrees) in my shoulder and I dialed for long range I would be dialed away from the target the farther I shoot. Right?

The latter would be worse than the former.

 

[Flatbush Harry]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WestTxMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a set of levels that I bought from cabelas, think are wheeler brand. One sits on the interior of the receiver and the level portion hangs out of the ejection port, it sits on the raceway I think. Then the second level sits on the scope. I level the rifle out then the scope and tighten it down and torque it. Then I will level my acd to the scope. It does look off when you look through it, but take some shots at 1000 with making it level by eyeballing and then with acd. You will see the effect and how much your eye is off. </div></div>

I bought a Wheeler scope installation kit some years ago that contains these two levels among other parts. They have worked perfectly with the rifles on which I have installed scopes...including my R700s.

FH

 

[TRAAV]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

Feeler gages

 

[ehparis]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowbuyu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI, Lin Shriver makes a dandy set of machined sliding wedges to place between the rail or top of the mount and the bottom of the scope erector housing while tightening the scope mount rings. It absolutely squares the scope to the rifle. Then you can place a small level on top of the elevation knob to level the rifle and scope as you tighten your cant level in place. Works like a charm. </div></div>

I tried to google "Lin Shriver" and had no luck. Could you provide company name or better yet a URL?

Thanks.

 

[Lofty]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

I'm not getting something here.

If I mounted my scope reticle level to the world and my rifle exactly 90 degrees perpendicular to that......meaning laying flat on its side, as long as my reticle is level with the world during shooting, what does it matter what angle the rifle is at?

The bullet doesn't know which way the barrel is laying does it?


I get the gun comfortable in the pocket, level the scope reticle with a plumb hanging from a tree about 50 feet away. Then I mount my bubble level with the reticle still plumb.

Now my reticle is level and my level is level with the world. So my bubble is the reference by which I level the rifle during shooting......I don't really care where my rifle is as long as it is comfortable.

Seems like it works great for me out past 1200 yards.




Am I missing something?

 

[elk addict]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

feeler guages

then put a level on your rail- simple

seems like it would be better to get your stock fit to you & leave the scope on the same plane as the bore. fewer variables

 

[oneshot.onehit]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ehparis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowbuyu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI, Lin Shriver makes a dandy set of machined sliding wedges to place between the rail or top of the mount and the bottom of the scope erector housing while tightening the scope mount rings. It absolutely squares the scope to the rifle. Then you can place a small level on top of the elevation knob to level the rifle and scope as you tighten your cant level in place. Works like a charm. </div></div>

I tried to google "Lin Shriver" and had no luck. Could you provide company name or better yet a URL?

Thanks. </div></div>

Try a search for Schryver Gun Sales, Forreston Il.

 

[ehparis]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot.onehit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ehparis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowbuyu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI, Lin Shriver makes a dandy set of machined sliding wedges to place between the rail or top of the mount and the bottom of the scope erector housing while tightening the scope mount rings. It absolutely squares the scope to the rifle. Then you can place a small level on top of the elevation knob to level the rifle and scope as you tighten your cant level in place. Works like a charm. </div></div>

I tried to google "Lin Shriver" and had no luck. Could you provide company name or better yet a URL?

Thanks. </div></div>

Try a search for Schryver Gun Sales, Forreston Il. </div></div>

Thanks. Found it but doesn't work with two piece bases.

 

[George63]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outlaw45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

How do you recommend I level a rem700 sporter with Leupold turn-in bases? There's no flat spots on the gun to put a level. </div></div>

this has become my standard (fastest) way to mount/level a scope:

remove the barreled action from the stock/ AR upper from lower

set up a level horizontal on the table

use an internal magazine (set into the action) for bolt guns as a spacer to rest on level - for AR's just rest the upper on the level

use books to prop up the muzzle until the crosshairs are on the garage door header of the house across the street

check for alignment with the header as they screws are torqued

set the scope level

look down the bore at the address numbers adjusting the scope for a rough 100 yard zero

I end up swapping scopes around quite a bit and can be finished with the action back in the stock /everything put away in 4-5 minutes

 

[xs hedspace]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

So I use a little Starret level on the action, then use it on the elevation turret when tightening the rings, but I still get 2-3 min windage error going from my 1000 yd no wind zero, to 100 yds at my local range. Is this due to bullet drift?? Or is it tracking of the elevation mechanism when making such a large change to the scope? Or is it that there's no such thing as No Wind at 1000yds?

 

[Topstrap]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xs hedspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I use a little Starret level on the action, then use it on the elevation turret when tightening the rings, but I still get 2-3 min windage error going from my 1000 yd no wind zero, to 100 yds at my local range. Is this due to bullet drift?? Or is it tracking of the elevation mechanism when making such a large change to the scope? Or is it that there's no such thing as No Wind at 1000yds? </div></div>

After setting your scope and you think everything is level do you shoot at that 100 yard target and do a tracking test? Having about a 3ft perfectly verticle line and cranking in multiple adjustments of elevation till you are or past your 1000 yard setting does it track perfectly up that line? By aiming at the same point and making these adjustments it shows if you are tracking true. If you use a staightedge and intersect all your shots it's easy to see if it's canted one way or the other.

Topstrap

 

[xs hedspace]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

Never did the plumb bob chalk line tracking test...might be interesting. Next F class match next Sunday, better not mess with things now, will need new numbers on my settings sticker.

 

[George63]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xs hedspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">t I still get 2-3 min windage error going from my 1000 yd no wind zero, to 100 yds at my local range. </div></div>

for 175 gr 308 at 2650 mv from a 10 twist - JBM showed 1.2 moa drift at 1000 yds

the rest has to be something else

 

[Lofty]

Re: leveling the gun & scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xs hedspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I use a little Starret level on the action, then use it on the elevation turret when tightening the rings, but I still get 2-3 min windage error going from my 1000 yd no wind zero, to 100 yds at my local range. Is this due to bullet drift?? Or is it tracking of the elevation mechanism when making such a large change to the scope? Or is it that there's no such thing as No Wind at 1000yds? </div></div>


This is why you use a plumb against the reticle.

You're worrying about the scope body and the rifle being level when neither of those matter. It's the reticle that needs to be level.

Then like the other poster mentioned, after leveling your reticle, you have to do a ladder test to determine if your reticle tracks properly. Your erector mechanism might not move the reticle perfectly straight up and down.