Leveling your scope

[smoothy8500]

So if my "canted" rifle bore is 1/8" right of the level scope center and I zero at 100yds, does that mean the "departure" at 1000 yds is 1-1/4" left of POA? I can accept a couple of inches....Even if it was 1/2" off center due to cant, (which would be a lot) it still doesn't seem like that much "departure" in the end. This seems pretty over-blown.

 

[Dthomas3523]

So if my "canted" rifle bore is 1/8" right of the level scope center and I zero at 100yds, does that mean the "departure" at 1000 yds is 1-1/4" left of POA? I can accept a couple of inches....Even if it was 1/2" off center due to cant, (which would be a lot) it still doesn't seem like that much "departure" in the end. This seems pretty over-blown.

The poi impact is overblown a bit.

The main reason not to do it is when using the rifle in a way where you may have to shoot in very awkward or weak side positions.

If you will never be in those situations, then go for it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I stay away from any reference that employs some portion of the scope tube as a plum/level reference because It's been my experience more than once that the reticle was not plumb/level with the turret housing or scope knob covers. I use a reference that's level with the rifle, the scope mount base, and the reticle itself for getting the two into proper alignment.

First, the rifle is firmly propped (Gun Vise) up and the scope base is leveled using a string level laid across the top of the base. I then sight through the scope at a house with siding. Working for a contractor, installing said siding; I know that professionally installed siding goes on with every plank leveled in conjunction with a spirit level. It generally can be relied upon to provide a true level reference.

The tube is rotated in the rings until the horizontal cross wire is smack dead parallel with the siding, then tightened down. Then checked.

While it is likely true that very small 'departures' can be acceptable; as long as it is easily possible to do better, why shouldn't one? Yes, 1 1/4 inch can get lost in the background noise at 1 Kyd. I'd probably not be able to identify that, or correct it (about 1/10MOA). But that's not on my agenda as long as I can fix the problem before it happens.

Greg

 

[Dthomas3523]

I have always used leveling the rifle with action, so I put the level on the rail and the scope to make sure they're aligned. I signed up for Snipers Hide training and they mentioned the only thing that matters is the scope is level when you shoot it. They said get behind the rifle, dry fire a few times and set the scope level to how you fire your rifle.

The bullet should always follow the same curve of gravity. Now as you zero your rifle properly and the scope is level across your zero, those adjustments and shifts are important to keep the scope always level when you shoot.

I initially had everything leveled with the action and I noticed that everytime I got comfortable behind the rifle, standing, on a barricade, and prone, the rifle naturally on my body was canted a few degrees. I ended up adjusting the scope to the way I naturally get behind my rifle, and now I can pick it up put it on my body in prone, barrier, and standing, and have my scope level which I think is the correct way to do it?

What do you do when you’re not on a barricade or somewhere where you can get your body “comfortable” behind the rifle?

What do you do when you shoot weak side?

Are you sure your “comfortable” utilizes proper fundamentals? If so, go for it. Just make sure you didn’t adjust the rifle to a bad habit.

 

[pmclaine]

Put rifle in shoulder.

Get it as comfortable as can be.

Find NPA that is dead nuts based on fit of rifle to body.

Make sure you have drawn a perfectly vertical line in relation to gravity through that point of NPA.

Twist scope to be level with vertical line/earth/gravity.

Realize rifle and scope are not level but rifle shoots awesome.

Come back here and start thread about how the reticle inside your scope must be off because it's not level with your rifle but shoots awesome anyway.

 

[smoothy8500]

The poi impact is overblown a bit.

The main reason not to do it is when using the rifle in a way where you may have to shoot in very awkward or weak side positions.

That point totally makes sense since it will probably exaggerate the cant. But that is also the nature of shooting in awkward positions, maintaining a level scope.

I stay away from any reference that employs some portion of the scope tube as a plum/level reference...

While it is likely true that very small 'departures' can be acceptable; as long as it is easily possible to do better, why shouldn't one?

Yeah, 2" at 1K is .055 mils. Also, a good point about the external construction of a scope possibly not "perfectly" in alignment with the reticle. So which is wrong-the erector, the body, or the knob? (insert silly smiley face)

 

[smoothy8500]

I guess I just got used to accepting "departure" with years of shooting NRA service rifle. We kept notes on our "No wind" zero's at distances to correct for the known amount of "departure" that iron sights inherently had.

 

[Tokay444]

I guess I just got used to accepting "departure" with years of shooting NRA service rifle. We kept notes on our "No wind" zero's at distances to correct for the known amount of "departure" that iron sights inherently had.

What was your no wind zero at a mile?

 

[smoothy8500]

What was your no wind zero at a mile?

I dunno, but it was 3MOA Left at 600yds....Nowhere near the negligible .055 mil of a couple inches at 1K.

 

[TIMMYTOY]

Wow what about line of sight vs bullet rise and fall ? Sure you can cant your rifle and level your scope sight it in at 100 yards-good luck adjusting scope/hold overs when you want to shoot different ranges.
Do a study cant your rifle level the scope zero at 100yrds then go shoot 1000 yards let us know how the study goes

 

[smoothy8500]

I dunno, how did his study fare?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I dunno, how did his study fare?

I think the initial argument came from someone using David Tubb with an extreme cant (without noting the special mount used).

I don’t don’t think anyone is suggesting that a degree of departure will matter for PRS type shooting.

Where it *could* matter is comfort level behind the rifle if you set up your rifle say, in prone position and you find yourself preferring a slightly canted rifle. But when you go to sit the forearm down on a bag or flat surface, and now you have issues getting behind the rifle comfortably because you didn’t learn to shoot a neutral rifle.

Or when you set your rifle up for small cant from your right side and you find yourself shooting weak side an entire stage or more, under short times where you don’t have time to work the kinks out.

This may not apply to someone or they may be able to work around it in awkward positions or weak side.

Just something to consider. Set your rifle up to the shooting environment or game you want. Just don’t lose sight of the fact that when you compare different disciplines, it may or may not be relevant.

 

[Dthomas3523]

This is also why manufacturers should start making more options for adjustable cant quick adjust butt pads.

You can set the rifle and optic up level to one another and then move the cant angle if the butt pad on the fly with a thumb wheel.

 

[littlepod]

This is also why manufacturers should start making more options for adjustable cant quick adjust butt pads.

You can set the rifle and optic up level to one another and then move the cant angle if the butt pad on the fly with a thumb wheel.

I have been considering getting the $68 KRG adjustable buttpiece for exactly this... and also for different standing/prone positions would be nice to raise/lower the buttpiece too.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I have been considering getting the $68 KRG adjustable buttpiece for exactly this... and also for different standing/prone positions would be nice to raise/lower the buttpiece too.

The AX style but pad is just about perfect.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I set the scope up with all the diopter tweaking. Set the rifle up with an adjustable length and cant butt pad (AICS) for my length of pull. Put the scope on and get the check-rest loose, and then play with the scope position and check-rest till comfy and scope shadow optimized. Then I get the scope level to plumb line or line on a target at 50/100 and then get the bubble level adjusted to agree with the leveled reticle. Then I do last round of adjustments on scope final position and rifle set up. Get the rifle comfortable with my eyes closed and then tweak the scope until it is level when I'm dead sleep comfortable. Torque down the scope. Double check the bubble level to the reticle. I should shoot some boxes and check the scope at that time, but I'm usually running up long distance dope, since ballistic calc are so off when I try to do them for 22LR.

With the cant adjustable butt pad, I try to keep the rifle level, but I don't obsess about it. To me, the critical thing is the reticle to the bubble level.

 

[SPAK]

I use the feeler gauges also and back it up with a plumb bob test. I use the plumb bob on the wall behind the stock. Make sure Rifle is level, and shine a flashlight back through the scope and make sure the shadow and plumb bob match up. I’m literally getting ready to do this on my RPR as soon as I quit looking at all the stuff on here.

I just tried this.....worked awesome. Thanks for sharing. I used a laser projected level on the wall and it made it even easier....

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I haven't done this yet, but a Mind Experiment suggests that for shooting lying flat on left or right side, a 100yd zero that puts the POI exactly dead nuts under the POA by exactly the scope height above the bore may or may not be useful for then applying dope at right angles to the normal dope for a given distance.

Rack it down to zero/zero, then apply left or right equivalent to elevation at the intended distance. Guesstimate the wind, or put it on with the elevation knob. Remember to return to basic zero afterward.

I may give this a try in the real world.

Greg

 

[Kisssofdeath]

I have been considering getting the $68 KRG adjustable buttpiece

Do it.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

the only thing that matters is the scope is level when you shoot it

This is 100% correct. The scope and rifle don't have to be in perfect alignment. The reticle should look good to your eyes when shouldering the rifle. Leave the rings loose, shoulder, rotate scope to where you like it. After you are satisfied with with the scope, tighten the rings and that part is done. Now, rotate the bubble level until it is centered while having the rifle shouldered. Once centered lock the level ring and you are finished. Everytime you fire the rifle the bubble should be centered, which means the scope is level.

All a bubble level is, is a verification tool. It's just that simple.

 

[_Windrider_]

This is 100% correct. The scope and rifle don't have to be in perfect alignment. The reticle should look good to your eyes when shouldering the rifle. Leave the rings loose, shoulder, rotate scope to where you like it. After you are satisfied with with the scope, tighten the rings and that part is done. Now, rotate the bubble level until it is centered while having the rifle shouldered. Once centered lock the level ring and you are finished. Everytime you fire the rifle the bubble should be centered, which means the scope is level.

All a bubble level is, is a verification tool. It's just that simple.

No. All that matters is the RETICLE is level. Bubble levels are a crutch.

 

[littlepod]

No. All that matters is the RETICLE is level. Bubble levels are a crutch.

I need to get better at knowing when my reticle is level. Bubble levels are a crutch, but it's all I got until I get comfortable and better at knowing my reticle is level.

 

[_Windrider_]

I need to get better at knowing when my reticle is level. Bubble levels are a crutch, but it's all I got until I get comfortable and better at knowing my reticle is level.

Focus on your fundamentals and will be able to feel when it’s not level.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

No. All that matters is the RETICLE is level. Bubble levels are a crutch.

How do you know your reticle is level?

 

[Kisssofdeath]

I need to get better at knowing when my reticle is level. Bubble levels are a crutch, but it's all I got until I get comfortable and better at knowing my reticle is level.

It can be called a crutch or a tool. I use all mine as a tool. To each his own on that subject. If a person has that "feel" then that's fantastic. I guess I don't have that "feel".

 

[_Windrider_]

How do you know your reticle is level?

Plumb bob or a 4ft level

 

[_Windrider_]

It can be called a crutch or a tool. I use all mine as a tool. To each his own on that subject. If a person has that "feel" then that's fantastic. I guess I don't have that "feel".

I think they are excellent training aids, especially for dry fire practice. But they can be a crutch at the range or ina match as you become singular focus on the level and the rest of the fundamentals get forgotten.

 

[PracticalTactical]

I need to get better at knowing when my reticle is level. Bubble levels are a crutch, but it's all I got until I get comfortable and better at knowing my reticle is level.

Springfield once upon a time made a scope with an internal level bubble inside the field of view.

For some reason the scope wasn't very popular at the time, but the internal level bubble feature should be...

I would be on it like a bum on a baloney sandwich.

 

[pmclaine]

USO was big with offering internal levels.

I use an internal level with mine.

It's in my eye.

If you are a healthy individual your eye and your sac of inner ear fluid will do at least as well, should do better, than lowest bid bubble level supplier.

Your body is good at this stuff.

It's why aperature sights are so effective.

Our obssessive compulsive selves take over and will center and level by instinct.

Saw a shooter missing targets a few days ago. He blamed it on not checking his on board level.

The level had zero to do with those misses.

 

[Tokay444]

This is 100% correct. The scope and rifle don't have to be in perfect alignment. The reticle should look good to your eyes when shouldering the rifle. Leave the rings loose, shoulder, rotate scope to where you like it. After you are satisfied with with the scope, tighten the rings and that part is done. Now, rotate the bubble level until it is centered while having the rifle shouldered. Once centered lock the level ring and you are finished. Everytime you fire the rifle the bubble should be centered, which means the scope is level.

All a bubble level is, is a verification tool. It's just that simple.

As long as the reticle bisects the centre of the rifle bore, all that matters is that the reticle is level, yes, because by default then the rifle is level, unless you have an offset mount like David Tubb.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Plumb bob or a 4ft level

So you use a plumb bob every time you shoot?

 

[_Windrider_]

So you use a plumb bob every time you shoot?

No just to mount the scope. After that I focus on my shooting position. Trust me if you dry fire and take the time to attempt to master your fundamentals and set the rifle up properly you don’t need a level. You can literally feel it canted. Even on targets that are hung crooked to make you think you reticle isn’t level. The level of plumb is just when you initially mount the optic. After that trust what your body is telling you.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

@ Tacticaldillhole, I respect your position. I would think the decision to use a scope level would depend on the type of shooting being done. For example, when I "speed shoot" at 55 yards "which consist of a 2" swinger, 1" then 3" and ends with another 2" for 4 total I don't have the time to look at the level. When I'm shooting anything else, such as paper or KYL I utilize the level for verification, it's easy to use in that scenario. If opportunity permits I always take a quick look at the level. Also, I have tried 4 different levels and finally found one that is perfect. It only cost $10 on Amazon and can be used on 1" or 30mm scopes. For 34mm Lonestar brand I feel is best but it's $25 or so.

BTW, the speed shoot is a great way "IMO" to hone your speed, timing and accuracy. I'll have to get a photo of my setup. The little 1" guy keeps your honest with your aim. This is where the short bolt throw on a Tikka or Sako really shines. I would toss in the Zephyr II but the bolt is simply too hard to close to be quick about it. The 457 might do good.

 

[_Windrider_]

@ Tacticaldillhole, I respect your position. I would think the decision to use a scope level would depend on the type of shooting being done. For example, when I "speed shoot" at 55 yards "which consist of a 2" swinger, 1" then 3" and ends with another 2" for 4 total I don't have the time to look at the level. When I'm shooting anything else, such as paper or KYL I utilize the level for verification, it's easy to use in that scenario. If opportunity permits I always take a quick look at the level. Also, I have tried 4 different levels and finally found one that is perfect. It only cost $10 on Amazon and can be used on 1" or 30mm scopes. For 34mm Lonestar brand I feel is best but it's $25 or so.

BTW, the speed shoot is a great way "IMO" to hone your speed, timing and accuracy. I'll have to get a photo of my setup. The little 1" guy keeps your honest with your aim. This is where the short bolt throw on a Tikka or Sako really shines. I would toss in the Zephyr II but the bolt is simply too hard to close to be quick about it. The 457 might do good.

I challenge you to take it off. Try at least 50% of your shooting without it. You will quickly realize your body will tell you it’s off.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

I challenge you to take it off. Try at least 50% of your shooting without it. You will quickly realize your body will tell you it’s off.

I will say that once upon a time I didn't know a bubble level for scopes existed. In my quest for eliminating all variables I decided to try one. Now, if I didn't verify "just to easy not to do, so why not", and my shot(s) were off I would start questioning myself not using the level and creating that variable. It's just something I prefer to use whenever opportunity permits. It's kinda like insurance but cheap so why not take advantage of the tool available. Honestly, to me, just doesn't make sense to not use it when the shooting discipline permits.

 

[_Windrider_]

I will say that once upon a time I didn't know a bubble level for scopes existed. In my quest for eliminating all variables I decided to try one. Now, if I didn't verify "just to easy not to do, so why not", and my shot(s) were off I would start questioning myself not using the level and creating that variable. It's just something I prefer to use whenever opportunity permits. It's kinda like insurance but cheap so why not take advantage of the tool available. Honestly, to me, just doesn't make sense to not use it when the shooting discipline permits.

Ask yourself this though, when misses cost lives, why aren’t they standard issue to our best military and LE sharpshooters? There are NSN’s for cosign indicators but to my knowledge, not even TH has one for his bubble level.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

IDK the answer to your questions and honestly those do not relate to or concern me. I have said all I can about my preference and usage of the bubble level for scopes. If a person decides to not use one then that's their decision to make, and I'm fine with that. If someone decides to use a bubble level then that's their decision also, nothing wrong with that. There is no right or wrong here, it's just a matter of choice. I can't say anymore about it other than reiterate what I have said in my previous post above.

 

[_Windrider_]

IDK the answer to your questions and honestly those do not relate to or concern me. I have said all I can about my preference and usage of the bubble level for scopes. If a person decides to not use one then that's their decision to make, and I'm fine with that. If someone decides to use a bubble level then that's their decision also, nothing wrong with that. There is no right or wrong here, it's just a matter of choice. I can't say anymore about it other than reiterate what I have said in my previous post above.

Nah man. You do you. If it works for you who the fuck am I to say it’s wrong. I’m just sharing my opinion.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Nah man. You do you. If it works for you who the fuck am I to say it’s wrong. I’m just sharing my opinion.

LOL, 10-4 on sharing the opinion. This is the beauty of shooting firearms and shooting sports. We have so many choice "with everything", IMO this is truly the golden age of firearms with the choices and opportunities we have right now. If we could just get the suppressors off the NFA list, now that would be fantestical. Fantestical = big ole balls in an armored nutsack.

 

[littlepod]

Just finished a few hours of shooting, mainly rimfire, then my .308. Rimfire is pretty dialed in now where my NPOA / Recoil response, is dead back, cant doesn't change at all. I had the scope leveled to me shouldering the rifle eyes closed, repeatedly, then open and look at the level.

My .308 is still leveled with the action. I noticed that me shooting today, everytime I had to fight the cant. I naturally cant the rifle when shouldered probably 1 degree. So I'd have to adjust that cant to make sure scope was level. Everytime I fired, the rifle would land back with my scope canted back before the shot. So that wasn't good. That recoil/reset back to the natural cant probably caused precision issues. Only able to land about 0.7" groups today on the .308. Things didn't feel great. Still a new shooter though, but tried to follow everything in terms of lining up the body with the rifle, coming down on the rifle, getting into prone. Been following the snipers hide training videos.

That combination of slight cant after the shot, plus a mini rise in the rifle did make me lose sight picture.

Separate question - what does a rise of the muzzle mean when I fire? What body adjustments do I need to make so that the rifle recoils straight back and I don't see my sight picture move upwards?

 

[_Windrider_]

Just finished a few hours of shooting, mainly rimfire, then my .308. Rimfire is pretty dialed in now where my NPOA / Recoil response, is dead back, cant doesn't change at all. I had the scope leveled to me shouldering the rifle eyes closed, repeatedly, then open and look at the level.

My .308 is still leveled with the action. I noticed that me shooting today, everytime I had to fight the cant. I naturally cant the rifle when shouldered probably 1 degree. So I'd have to adjust that cant to make sure scope was level. Everytime I fired, the rifle would land back with my scope canted back before the shot. So that wasn't good. That recoil/reset back to the natural cant probably caused precision issues. Only able to land about 0.7" groups today on the .308. Things didn't feel great. Still a new shooter though, but tried to follow everything in terms of lining up the body with the rifle, coming down on the rifle, getting into prone. Been following the snipers hide training videos.

That combination of slight cant after the shot, plus a mini rise in the rifle did make me lose sight picture.

Separate question - what does a rise of the muzzle mean when I fire? What body adjustments do I need to make so that the rifle recoils straight back and I don't see my sight picture move upwards?

It means you aren’t square behind the rifle. Recoil, like water and electricity, follows the path of least resistance. If I had to guess, your rifle is shouldered too low and you are drinking your neck to see through the scope. Try raising the bipod and getting a more natural lye behind the rifle.

 

[littlepod]

It means you aren’t square behind the rifle. Recoil, like water and electricity, follows the path of least resistance. If I had to guess, your rifle is shouldered too low and you are drinking your neck to see through the scope. Try raising the bipod and getting a more natural lye behind the rifle.

Thanks, I'll give it a shot next time. I did notice if I raise my bipod anymore, I would have to arc my back too high to where it is uncomfortable. I'll make adjustments to shoulder it a little higher. I guess this is why they have those adjustable butt pieces for when you go prone.

 

[6gunner]

I’ve used the Wheeler Professional Leveling System.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Level the scope to the action and be done. Use a Spuhr wedge, playing cards, sex wedge (for those using ultra high rings), or feeler gauges. Hell, get a Dead Level or SAC level and plub line and level your shit. Torque it to spec, square up behind the rifle (and target), apply the fundamentals, and watch your impacts rape the center of the steel.

These kinds of special circumstance examples where you input a cant to the reticle aren’t applicable to the overwhelming majority of “LR” shooters out there.

Solid fundamentals will do more for everyone that gets on the glass than worrying about if you should level with a cant or not.

 

[M8541Reaper]

I think they are excellent training aids, especially for dry fire practice. But they can be a crutch at the range or ina match as you become singular focus on the level and the rest of the fundamentals get forgotten.

This.

I have an Acc 1st on my rifle but I also use it as a training rifle for others when I teach (and they don’t have one), so it’s used as a visual training aid. If you’ve been off the glass for a while or are new to the game it’s great to use as a reference tool...but that’s it.

Too many confuse a canted rifle as “oh well this is natural for me so it must mean that it’s my solid position” so they go with it. Not realizing that their position usually violates bone support, muscular relaxation, and/or natural point of aim (amongst others and disregarding if their LOP/cheek piece, scope/eye relief/focus is properly setup to their eye). Then you have to account for an additional factor that can complicate the shot analysis process.

If a shooter knows what a solid (correct) firing position is, and can instinctively get into one without thinking about it, then they can start to consider if a cant built into their level is appropriate... or if it’s even applicable to their specific sport.

As a smarter sniper once told me (pertaining to LR shooting and applying the fundamentals):
“Do your fucking job!”

Just my opinion based on what I’ve experienced.