Rifle Scopes Light Gathering

[Pronghunter]

Dead horse I’m sure.
Trying to buy the absolute best low light optic I can. Need some recommendations from those who have used.
Need one ASAP. New or used.
A particular location I hunt is dark timber. I run out of light before legal shooting. I have everything from NF ATACR, Leupold VX5, Mark5HD, Zeiss V6, Kahles 318 and 525, and several below that.
The Kahles is without question the brightest in low light of all them. But, are there any out there that have experience with say the Meopta Meostar, Swaro Z6, S&B Polar, Leica Magnus etc….the ones that are suppose to be king at low light? Wondering if I’m chasing my tail or if there is a noticeable difference? It’s not that I have difficulty making the animal out. It’s resolving antler differences. 4 point/5point, mass/thin etc.

 

[_Windrider_]

What your talking about is lens coating technology. It’s really subjective. Old eyes vs young eyes. Prescription vs non. Get a thermal clip on.

 

[diverdon]

Any good optic will be pretty good. I have the Vortex Razor gen II 1-6 on a few rifles. It's amazing how well I can see in low light with the tiny objective.

To me the sfp reticle helps because the lines stay the same at high power. With ffp I need illumination sooner.

 

[Pronghunter]

Thanks. But honestly not trying to go down to a vortex from the optics that I currently have that are mentioned above. Appreciate the advice though. I’m more looking into optics I don’t have, like the Magnus, S&B polar, Z8, Z6.
Thank you though.

 

[carbonbased]

Just get that older Zeiss/Hensoldt 6-24x72mm and be done with it lol

Used to be only $3771 at midway! I’m sure that was pretty expensive, but now…anyway I’ve read those are awfully good in the evening.

 

[fdkay]

No passive optic "gathers" light.
You say dark timber, I take that to mean, ranges are short.
Something on the low end of the magnification range, say 2-10 or 2.5-15 or so, with a large objective lens to allow for a more forgiving exit pupil.
Maybe something like this?

Z8i 2.3-18x56 P - Swarovski Optik

www.swarovskioptik.com

 

[adavis1138]

I have a Schmidt and Bender t96 Polar 2.5-10x50, and have used a lot of other high end glass--though admittedly, nothing from Leica. This scope is without a doubt the nicest hunting scope I've ever used. Glass quality and clarity is unbelievable and it feels like you're using a much higher mag when on the top end, due to the amount of detail that can be made out. The optic really shines in low light and makes ID-ing animals quite easy (though probably nowhere near as nice as thermal). However, all of that said this is without a doubt an item of diminishing return. The cost for this scope is quite high and it will be impossible to know if this particular system of coatings and glass will have the same affects for all users, and the fact is that 2.5-10 isn't as high of magnification as some would like (I tend to want more when I'm not shooting this rifle, and care less when I'm actually on the gun).

Would I recommend the Polar? Yes, as long as the buyer understood that this is a highly specialized piece of equipment and that some modern solutions may supplant the light gathering tech used in the scope, and that it has limitations just like all gear.

 

[carbonbased]

I have a Schmidt and Bender t96 Polar 2.5-10x50, and have used a lot of other high end glass--though admittedly, nothing from Leica. This scope is without a doubt the nicest hunting scope I've ever used. Glass quality and clarity is unbelievable and it feels like you're using a much higher mag when on the top end, due to the amount of detail that can be made out. The optic really shines in low light and makes ID-ing animals quite easy (though probably nowhere near as nice as thermal). However, all of that said this is without a doubt an item of diminishing return. The cost for this scope is quite high and it will be impossible to know if this particular system of coatings and glass will have the same affects for all users, and the fact is that 2.5-10 isn't as high of magnification as some would like (I tend to want more when I'm not shooting this rifle, and care less when I'm actually on the gun).

Would I recommend the Polar? Yes, as long as the buyer understood that this is a highly specialized piece of equipment and that some modern solutions may supplant the light gathering tech used in the scope, and that it has limitations just like all gear.

The industrial design of S&B scopes is always so nice. Especially some of their hunting scopes like the Polar. The way that Polar objective bell flares out is so cool. Looks harder to form that shape vs the traditional flare.

 

[Langford]

I’ve bought quite a few scopes over the years trying to find “the best” for low light hunting.

My favorites

-Zeiss Victory HT 3-12x56 ( no longer made unfortunately)
-S&B Polar T96 4-16x56
-Swaro Z8i 2.3-18x56

I still have the Swaro and S&B, but wish I kept the Zeiss also. Next on my list is a TT315, heard nothing but good. The one I regret not snagging up when they were on sale was the Leica Magnus, koshkin’s recommendations on that one still nags at me.

The Polar and Z8i are very comparable in dim light, but the eye box on the Swaro is better and so is the color hue and contrast (to my eyes). It’s still my go-to hunting scope, but the polar is no slouch. I’ve ruined quite a few people who always previously bought cheap scopes with that one.

Like mentioned above, these are for a niche market. You’re paying a lot for small gains. A Meopta Meostar will get you close at a fraction of the price. Im not a Leupold fan, but the vx5/6 is pretty good at their price point.

 

[Hickswr]

Decent binos trump expensive scopes for the purpose you are describing.

Scopes are for killing, not resolving antler differences at last light.

 

[Pronghunter]

Decent binos trump expensive scopes for the purpose you are describing.

Scopes are for killing, not resolving antler differences at last light.

I agree 99% of the time. But when I am overlooking this particular spot, and there’s 5, 6, or more bucks all in a group, especially during the rut and they are moving around, etc., once the Bino‘s go down I have to be able to distinguish which one is which with the scope.

 

[Glassaholic]

TT 3-15M is superb in low light. The new Steiner T6Xi 3-18x56 holds promise as a great low light scope. Don’t be too duped by light transmission claims, there’s all kinds of ways to manipulate good numbers. Generally the more expensive scopes have better overall light transmission experience. Light transmission isn’t everything, you can have high transmission

 

[Pronghunter]

TT 3-15M is superb in low light. The new Steiner T6Xi 3-18x56 holds promise as a great low light scope. Don’t be too duped by light transmission claims, there’s all kinds of ways to manipulate good numbers. Generally the more expensive scopes have better overall light transmission experience. Light transmission isn’t everything, you can have high transmission

The TT315M is definitely on my list. Was waiting for their 20x model to come out. As much as the tangent is talked about, I hear very little when it comes to its light gathering. A lot of times resolving can definitely trump low light. I get that. Maybe the ZCO and the TT would be better suited.

As for the Steiner, why has the T6Xi gained ground when talking about low light? I’ve read on multiple forums but haven’t seen anyone with real hands on. How’s it differ from the M series or the Steiner?

 

[Bangin]

Have two Steiner t6xi. 2.5-15 and the 3-18. Compared it to my kahles k318i. Honestly couldnt tell a difference at low light. Optically they look just as good to me.

 

[Langford]

Not sure where you’re located, but if it’s anywhere near SE Michigan, you’re welcome to spend some time behind any of these.

 

[B y r o n]

So have you considered a day/night optic, one that can be used in daylight or full darkness at night?

 

[BamaSE]

I have a Schmidt and Bender t96 Polar 2.5-10x50, and have used a lot of other high end glass--though admittedly, nothing from Leica. This scope is without a doubt the nicest hunting scope I've ever used. Glass quality and clarity is unbelievable and it feels like you're using a much higher mag when on the top end, due to the amount of detail that can be made out. The optic really shines in low light and makes ID-ing animals quite easy (though probably nowhere near as nice as thermal). However, all of that said this is without a doubt an item of diminishing return. The cost for this scope is quite high and it will be impossible to know if this particular system of coatings and glass will have the same affects for all users, and the fact is that 2.5-10 isn't as high of magnification as some would like (I tend to want more when I'm not shooting this rifle, and care less when I'm actually on the gun).

Would I recommend the Polar? Yes, as long as the buyer understood that this is a highly specialized piece of equipment and that some modern solutions may supplant the light gathering tech used in the scope, and that it has limitations just like all gear.

I second the S&B Polar. Went thru this myself a couple years back when I noticed my ability to see at dark thirty was not what it used to be out of my other scopes. Used the Polar last season and the difference was very noticeable. Legal shooting time (30 minutes after sunset) ends before my ability to see out of the Polar does….even on those darker overcast evenings in late January/early February.

 

[Glassaholic]

The TT315M is definitely on my list. Was waiting for their 20x model to come out. As much as the tangent is talked about, I hear very little when it comes to its light gathering. A lot of times resolving can definitely trump low light. I get that. Maybe the ZCO and the TT would be better suited.

As for the Steiner, why has the T6Xi gained ground when talking about low light? I’ve read on multiple forums but haven’t seen anyone with real hands on. How’s it differ from the M series or the Steiner?

I have no hands on experience as of yet, just excited someone has made a midrange FFP scope with a 56mm objective. There is no guarantee it will be anything special, it is more my “hope” that it will somehow be like the Henny 4-16x56 experience - excellent eyebox, excellent low light performance. For years I had a Minox ZP5 5-25x56 on my hunting/crossover rig, wish I had lower mag but loved the low light performance.

Yes, probably good to wait on the TT 4-20, hopefully it will be an M series to keep the weight down. Love the ZCO 4-20 but it’s a chunk. Your experience with the Kahles K318i mimics mine, great little low light performer but limited FOV is what caused me to part ways.

 

[Pronghunter]

I have no hands on experience as of yet, just excited someone has made a midrange FFP scope with a 56mm objective. There is no guarantee it will be anything special, it is more my “hope” that it will somehow be like the Henny 4-16x56 experience - excellent eyebox, excellent low light performance. For years I had a Minox ZP5 5-25x56 on my hunting/crossover rig, wish I had lower mag but loved the low light performance.

Yes, probably good to wait on the TT 4-20, hopefully it will be an M series to keep the weight down. Love the ZCO 4-20 but it’s a chunk. Your experience with the Kahles K318i mimics mine, great little low light performer but limited FOV is what caused me to part ways.

You mention the Minox. I can get a ZP5 at a great price. I have never looked through one so I can’t compare. How does it do compare to the Kahles? Low light specifically? I know overall daytime use the Minox is supposed to be considerably better.

 

[Langford]

I know this was directed at glassaholic, but I can chime in as well. The only Kahles I have experience with is an early 624i, which was extremely underwhelming and the K16i, which I’ve been pleasantly surprised with.

The Minox zp5 is on another level, extremely good glass. I ended up selling my 5-25 zp5 for a NF 7-35 for the extra magnification…but it was a step down in the optical department. The Minox was one of the best scopes I’ve owned visually…no comparison between it and the Kahles. I didn’t have it on a hunting rig, so my time in low light was fairly limited…but I’d say it was close to the Polar.

 

[Glassaholic]

You mention the Minox. I can get a ZP5 at a great price. I have never looked through one so I can’t compare. How does it do compare to the Kahles? Low light specifically? I know overall daytime use the Minox is supposed to be considerably better.

I've had similar experience as Langford between Minox and Kahles (K624i) where I was a bit underwhelmed with lowlight performance, my Minox did better in low light than my K318i but comparing 56mm objective to 50mm is already a bit lopsided. Biggest issue with Minox is their warranty services all the way in Germany, some early QC issues that included turret feel that improved over time (I sent in an older model for a turret upgrade and it took two months, but had outstanding turrets after update). It is a sister design to Tangent Theta, they share similar DNA as Optronika was responsible for the optical formula in Premier/TT/ZP5 FWIW. Some have said glass was underwhelming so might be a few duds floating around out there, but overall they've been very solid scopes for their owners, for the price there is nothing that can beat them optically.

I should add I had my Minox ZP5 when I also purchased a TT and comparing them side by side I could not choose a winner between the two, they were both phenomenal.

 

[carbonbased]

Sorry for a quick thread derail, but does minox still make the ZP5 5-25 with the MR4 reticle? Eurooptic allows back orders, but the thing isn’t in stock anywhere.

 

[FuhQ]

Dead horse I’m sure.
Trying to buy the absolute best low light optic I can. Need some recommendations from those who have used.
Need one ASAP. New or used.
A particular location I hunt is dark timber. I run out of light before legal shooting. I have everything from NF ATACR, Leupold VX5, Mark5HD, Zeiss V6, Kahles 318 and 525, and several below that.
The Kahles is without question the brightest in low light of all them. But, are there any out there that have experience with say the Meopta Meostar, Swaro Z6, S&B Polar, Leica Magnus etc….the ones that are suppose to be king at low light? Wondering if I’m chasing my tail or if there is a noticeable difference? It’s not that I have difficulty making the animal out. It’s resolving antler differences. 4 point/5point, mass/thin etc.

For lowlight… Kahles K-series, Zeiss V6 or V8, Swarovski Z6 (or higher), Hensoldt… Take your pick.

 

[brianf]

not talking build quality, turrets, rets...just brightness

tier 1 TT, ZCO,
tier 2 SB, March, swaro
tier 3 vortex gen 3, NF, Khales

ive had many of them side by side while shooting, and swapping rifles letting one cool down and thats what it seems like

had several khales and they are no where near as bright in bright or dark as the tier 2..i no longer have khales. even they look really cool

 

[Langford]

not talking build quality, turrets, rets...just brightness

tier 1 TT, ZCO,
tier 2 SB, March, swaro
tier 3 vortex gen 3, NF, Khales

ive had many of them side by side while shooting, and swapping rifles letting one cool down and thats what it seems like

had several khales and they are no where near as bright in bright or dark as the tier 2..i no longer have khales. even they look really cool

100% not doubting you because I’ve never had the opportunity to look through a TT or ZCO, the first chance I’ll get is when I open the box on my own.

But if they are truly brighter than something like a S&B Polar or Swaro Z8i, which were both designed to be the brightest/best hunting scopes, I’ll be very pleasantly surprised.
Price wise, they aren’t far off of zco/tt, and are definitely lacking on turrets, ruggedness, etc…all of the effort went into glass & coatings.

 

[Pronghunter]

100% not doubting you because I’ve never had the opportunity to look through a TT or ZCO, the first chance I’ll get is when I open the box on my own.

But if they are truly brighter than something like a S&B Polar or Swaro Z8i, which were both designed to be the brightest/best hunting scopes, I’ll be very pleasantly surprised.
Price wise, they aren’t far off of zco/tt, and are definitely lacking on turrets, ruggedness, etc…all of the effort went into glass & coatings.

That’s kind of where I am at. I’m not questioning the likelihood of anything being brighter, which is why I started this thread, but I just can’t imagine something brighter than my K318i it K525i. But they’re obviously must be. Just trying to find out so I don’t have to play the game of spending thousands multiple times for little to no gain.

 

[adavis1138]

That’s kind of where I am at. I’m not questioning the likelihood of anything being brighter, which is why I started this thread, but I just can’t imagine something brighter than my K318i it K525i. But they’re obviously must be. Just trying to find out so I don’t have to play the game of spending thousands multiple times for little to no gain.

That's sort of the problem (and it's one I've struggled with as well). From what you've said you have really nice gear, and I'm not sure anything will be a demonstrable step up optically. In fact, even small gains might seem hard to find. That said, I really like my Polar and have no plans to get rid of it or anything, but I'm not sure I'd buy this class of scope again for something I can only really see the benefits from a couple of weeks out of the year.

And the post above yours just makes me want a TT that much more. If the glass really is better than the Polar or Swarovski I need to look through one of these--it just sucks I can't check one out without swiping a credit card.

 

[Langford]

One good thing about this “game” is the fact that high end scopes hold their value pretty well. You can buy a scope, try it for a few months and sell it for a very small loss if it doesn’t fit your needs. High end hunting specific scopes are slightly harder to sell since the market is fairly small compared to long range/tactical scopes, but they still move with some patience.

I started in 2013 or 2014, I’ve bought 19 scopes I’d consider mid-high tier since then ($800+), over 40k out of pocket total, but I’ve recouped a lot of that selling what I didn’t like. I currently still have 9 of them, and will be adding a 10th late winter/early spring (TT or ZCO).

I’ve found too many reviews or recommendations to be biased…”this model is the best because it’s what I bought and I feel the need to promote it”, or people comparing against scopes they have little to no experience with. There are a few here on the hide that are the exception to this, but I’ve found testing them with my eyes is the best bet.

 

[brianf]

100% not doubting you because I’ve never had the opportunity to look through a TT or ZCO, the first chance I’ll get is when I open the box on my own.

But if they are truly brighter than something like a S&B Polar or Swaro Z8i, which were both designed to be the brightest/best hunting scopes, I’ll be very pleasantly surprised.
Price wise, they aren’t far off of zco/tt, and are definitely lacking on turrets, ruggedness, etc…all of the effort went into glass & coatings.

With out a doubt..we are splitting hairs when talking top tier gear. Neither is junk.

Swaro glass is done if the best no question

 

[wadebrown]

I would recommend a Schmidt Bender Zenith 1.5-6x42 problem is it has been discontinued, they pop up occasionally on ebay and used S&B are relatively safe given the quality. I use 1.5-6 on both of my bear guns that I use in deep woods and Meopta has them in the Meostar, my two bear guns wear Meopta Artemis 1.5-6x42. I am itching to try a Kaps TLB 1.5-6x42 with illumination for my prime bear gun a Mauser 98 in 9.3 x 62.

I think 6 power is more than enough power for deep woods and I leave the scope at 1.5 I have always though that I will have more time if I need to boost the power, target at longer range, than I would to lower for a close up and personal target. I do this for all hunting rigs unless sitting a field or pipeline, while hunting bear in the woods I have never raised the power above 1.5.

 

[BCX]

Look for a used Zeiss Diavari VM/V 3-12x56. Brightest low light scope i ever owned.