Light recoiling 7mm ELR?

[flyer]

I have a long action ARC Archimedes action and Xylo chassis on pre-order.

I love my 6.5 Creedmoor at 1,000 yards but I'm looking to step up.

Things I like about 6.5 Creedmoor: inexpensive match ammo, light recoil, super common short action parts and AICS magazine compatibility.

I have also shot .338 Lapua Magnum and .50 BMG at 1,000 yards. Things I don't like about them are: excessive recoil and muzzle blast, expensive ammo/reloading, uncommon and expensive parts.

What I want to do is figure out a 7mm with 180+ grain bullets that has decent barrel life, enough velocity to push trans-sonic out to 1,500 yards or more, inexpensive ammo/reloading and won't beat up my shoulder too bad.

My first thought was the .284 Winchester which does seem efficient but I'm not sure it would have quite enough legs.

I don't want to go for a short magnum case because I'm not trying to stuff it in a short action and I want something that will feed from a magazine.

Is 7x64 a good choice?

What is out there that I can shoot all day without horribly bruised shoulders or horribly depleted powder jugs? What magazine can I use and what will have reasonable barrel life?

I know it's trying to thread a needle to deliver on all of those points but I want to have enjoyable and affordable ELR practice without pretending that I'll be King of two miles.

I just ordered Sig Kilo 3000 BDX binoculars and have a Kestrel 5700 to do AB External and will probably get a Micro Charlie Terrac for ELR without getting too crazy on the scope mount slope or a scope with crazy internal adjustment. I have ok tools for ELR and don't want to drop $15,000 to get the best of everything for ELR. I just want a setup that can at least flirt aggressively with the mile but won't be a pain in the ass or the wallet.

 

[phlegethon]

Why not 300 PRC? It should nearly equal .338 LM ballistics except for the 300 grain Berger bullets, and would have a lot less recoil. I am not sure you would get that much more performance from 7mm. At least that was what I was thinking for my LA Archimedes/Xylo preorder.

 

[flyer]

I don't know, give me the case for it.

How is the brass selection? How heavy do the bullets have to be to match the BC of a 180 grain 7mm? How much muzzle velocity do you have to push to get to a mile? How many grains of powder in a warm load?

 

[Diver160651]

A 7mm mag will indeed make your goals. If you use a normally weighted high end chassis or stock, at least a 26" in a faster twist with at least an M24 or MTU profile and brake, the recoil will be a very tolerable push. The only downsides are less barrel life and much less to see when you miss.

Here is a older video (from the DIY camera thread) showing a 168gr berger. Note the two Large Watermarks on the left were from a 338 285Amax at closer range the two on the lower right from the same gun at 2400. The hit in the center as it is playing is the 7mm - notice how much lighter the water mark is.

Please note I have a lot of other videos closer but nothing with my 7mm (same holds true for the difference in splash however at 2400 as it does at 1500 or whatever)

The clip shows the misses and about how much dust the 7mm can toss up. Note the difference in quality is because I was testing different antennas:
338 with misses

7mm with misses

 

[phlegethon]

I don't know, give me the case for it.

How is the brass selection? How heavy do the bullets have to be to match the BC of a 180 grain 7mm? How much muzzle velocity do you have to push to get to a mile? How many grains of powder in a warm load?

There is a lengthy thread in this forum about it that would be more informative. The G7 BCs for the Berger Hybrid 215 and 230 grain bullets are 0.354 and 0.368, a bit higher than the best 7mm bullet I can see. It may also be easier to see splash with the heavier bullets.

 

[jasent]

That is the reason I built my 338. I’ve taken my 243 out to a mile and it’s hard to spot impacts if conditions aren’t great.

Any of the big 7’s will do fine out past a mile with good conditions for spotting hits.

Ime If you spin them fast they trend to transition well.

7 rem mag would do just fine for what you want. And a good brake will help your shoulder, or just a heavy rifle

 

[b6graham]

7/300PRC would probably be best or if you wanna be different the 280 Sherman

but transsonic to 1500 isnt that difficult. WTOs 7SAW gets there with the 162 and 180 ELDm's. and its a short action non magnum.

 

[flyer]

I will watch those as soon as I'm able.

Could you tell me the MV of your 7mm magnum?

I think that has a belted case, I would rather avoid that. Also I think if mile is the limit I can start with less MV and not have so much of a barrel burner.

 

[jetmd]

300WM,

1)brass is readily available and reasonably priced.

1. excellent bullet choices being the Bergers listed above or the 225eldm Hornaday
2. H1000 powder and load data easily obtained
3. decent barrel life
4. most every good gunsmith will already have a reamer in stock

 

[Diver160651]

I will watch those as soon as I'm able.

Could you tell me the MV of your 7mm magnum?

I think that has a belted case, I would rather avoid that. Also I think if mile is the limit I can start with less MV and not have so much of a barrel burner.

168 Berger 3125 26" barrel (very hot). BTW once I get to my 300s there really was a benefit in recoil pulse and barrel like going to the LM. Low recoil 7mm/ Barrel life 338.. the 300s barrel life closer to the 7 but recoil closer to the 338..

 

[surgeon260]

The G7 BCs for the Berger Hybrid 215 and 230 grain bullets are 0.354 and 0.368, a bit higher than the best 7mm bullet I can see.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but there are many 7mm bullets with higher BCs than the Berger 30 cal Hybrids. The Sierra 183/197 and Berger 195 come to mind.

 

[phlegethon]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but there are many 7mm bullets with higher BCs than the Berger 30 cal Hybrids. The Sierra 183/197 and Berger 195 come to mind.

You’re right. The table I was looking at didn’t show the 195. That’s really impressive performance.

 

[Diver160651]

It is NOT all about BC.

Spotting issues aside that solids have, think what a low bearing surface, super light for caliber and good BC might do..

Imagine 150 grain 7 mm Warner Solid with a BC of a 170 traditional of about .618 when run at 2750– gun the same at 3250 and the effective BC is much greater.

People get too wrapped in BC alone and it just is NOT whole story..

Speed is Key~

Recoil is real effect, you need too much weight or other devices once the caliber gets to large at it affects the shooters. Everyone’s personal weight and recoil tolerance is different.

 

[Sig Marine]

I built a .284 that can get to 1500 with Berger 180 Hybrids. Granted to do it supersonic, atmospherics have to be right but it is a pleasure to shoot with very little recoil. Here are some numbers with my load, MV 2829fps:

DA 5500, Temp 65 degrees: 1500 yds - velocity 1371 fps, 1400 yds - velocity 1453 fps, Subsonic at 1850 yds
DA 4500, Temp 65 degrees: 1500 yds - velocity 1335 fps, 1400 yds - velocity 1417 fps, Subsonic at 1800 yds
DA 3500, Temp 65 degrees: 1500 yds - velocity 1298 fps, 1400 yds - velocity 1382 fps, Subsonic at 1750 yds
DA 2500, Temp 65 degrees: 1500 yds - velocity 1260 fps, 1400 yds - velocity 1346 fps, Subsonic at 1700 yds

Hope this helps...

 

[flyer]

Thank you, .284 started me looking for 6.5 Creedmoor's slightly bigger brother.

I'm just not sure it's quite enough which is why I'm looking at 7x64 as an alternative.

It seems like there is .284, .280AI, then the short magnums and then the big jump to magnum cases but 7x64 might slot in between .284 and the short magnums.

The 7x64 has a bit more capacity than .284 but the powder column is longer and the max pressure spec is less being fairly antique but it still seems to be somewhat popular in countries where military cartridges are not legal for sporting use.

Maybe it's a pipe dream but it seems like there is a chance that it might be good for ELR.

On the other hand, if .284 has a clear path, I probably shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel.

 

[sodakhunter]

Any love for the 7MM LRM?

 

[flyer]

I'll look in to it.

 

[4darkseid]

Because 7mag hurts my frail little shoulder. I sold mine years ago. Will buy another or a 300 when I start hunting up north. Even then a heavy 6.5 will drop a lot of big game. As far as shooting paper and steel it's a no brainier for me.

 

[SAPenguin]

7 SAUM, with a long freebore, from a long action gun, with a long barrel. 63gr H1000 = 3000fps. Point the bullets .

 

[mkollman74]

Any love for the 7MM LRM?

Yes. I run one in my hunting rifle. H1000 comfortably gives me 2940 fps with 195s in a 25" barrel. Not sure on barrel life for ELR though.

 

[Diver160651]

I have had as low as 950, running one hole groups with 168s with 73gr H1000- opening to 1/2”. But the same load more with the same barrel from the same Mfg.. go figure

 

[tho98027]

I’ve thought about a practical elr setup over the last couple years and I keep coming back to 7mms. There are so many great 7mm bullets on the market yet no ideal magnum cartridges to launch the larger 180+ grain bullets. A saum in a long action or a 28 nosler are it but not crazy about either. A 7-300 prc is the closest thing to the ideal 7mm in my mind but you have to deal with Hornady brass. Wish alpha, lapua, or even Peterson would start offering more beltless magnum cases.

 

[Odysseus1911]

I've been thinking the same, that 7mm makes for a practical ELR choice given all the really high BC bullet choices and at much less cost than 338.

I like what I've read about the 7mm SS (Sherman Shortmag). Getting 2900-2950 with the Berger 195 in a short action.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/7mm-sherman-short-mag.6870335/

I've also heard of a 7mm LRC by Precision Rifled Ordnance that is a .338 LM case shortened to fit in a short action and necked down to 7mm. Seems like it could be interesting, but I haven't been able to find any details on case dimensions or performance.

 

[Bradu]

I've been thinking the same, that 7mm makes for a practical ELR choice given all the really high BC bullet choices and at much less cost than 338.

I like what I've read about the 7mm SS (Sherman Shortmag). Getting 2900-2950 with the Berger 195 in a short action.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/7mm-sherman-short-mag.6870335/

I've also heard of a 7mm LRC by Precision Rifled Ordnance that is a .338 LM case shortened to fit in a short action and necked down to 7mm. Seems like it could be interesting, but I haven't been able to find any details on case dimensions or performance.

If you factor in barrel life on a bigger 7mm vs a 338 then it's not really any cheaper. I personally don't care which is why I did a 7-300 norma but it's something that some people will consider. That cartridge made more sense than a 28 nosler because of the quality brass. I can't say that I will get much more speed out of it but it does well at a mile.

 

[Jack's Dad]

I recently went from 6.5 Creed to 284 win and have been very pleased with the results. I posted my numbers on the 284 Winchester page in these forums.

 

[camotoe]

I would do 7 300wm or 280ai. Because you can get brass anywhere

 

[sandwarrior]

Any love for the 7MM LRM?

Not so much. It does what it's intended to do. However, there are a number of cartridges that do the same without the outrageous proprietary cost to do so. you can get the same from a simple 7mm Rem Mag. You can nearly parallel perfomance with a WSM.

It really boils down to how well built the rifle and the ammunition is.

It is NOT all about BC.

Spotting issues aside that solids have, think what a low bearing surface, super light for caliber and good BC might do..

Imagine 150 grain 7 mm Warner Solid with a BC of a 170 traditional of about .618 when run at 2750– gun the same at 3250 and the effective BC is much greater.

People get too wrapped in BC alone and it just is NOT whole story..

Speed is Key~

Recoil is real effect, you need too much weight or other devices once the caliber gets to large at it affects the shooters. Everyone’s personal weight and recoil tolerance is different.

Any reasonably trained marksman can pull a 3-5 pound trigger and get every bit of accuracy the system possesses.

I see what you are saying and I have to add something. BC really is key. But, BC has to include stability. If you took a "barely stabilized" bullet out to 1k, then when it starts to become unstable it's done, and the trajectory becomes completely unpredictable.

Speed is great, but without BC it's like throwing a baseball. No matter how fast you send a bullet downrange. If it carries a lot of drag it's going to slow down substantially more than a low drag bullet. Speed also increases the rate of rotation a bullet flies with. In that way it helps as well.

And to a point, enough speed is a necessity for BC to matter. I use the example of the sleek 220 gr. .30 cal bullet shot subsonic from a .300 BLK vs. a 230 gr. round nose .45 cal bullet. Both were fired at 1050 fps (subsonic) out to 500 yds. Amazingly, there wasn't all that much difference in trajectory. The .30 cal fell 28 ft., while the .45 cal fell 31 ft. Not much difference, eh? So why?

Think of Newtons third law of motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. A bullet flying through the air pushes against the air and will slow down proportionately to it's shape. A sleek high BC bullet will cut the air, while the fat .45 will push against it. But, when velocity is slowed way down, there isn't that much push against the air (opposite reaction), so the resistance isn't as great as when the bullet is moving fast and the resistance is high.

 

[Diver160651]

Speed is great, but without BC it's like throwing a baseball. No matter how fast you send a bullet downrange.

Of course, I am referring to guys running 300fps less and maybe run a 300grain Berger verses a 255 grain Warner (thats a bad example because the BC is very high o that one) or CE.. You really see it with guys thinking they need the 147 6.5 at all costs.. or a barley stable 7mm that is never getting the stated BC because it is too slow and trans creates more drag

 

[badassgunworks]

I would not consider a 7mm as a true elr caliber elr-ish perhaps but most elr matches start 1500 yards so your done shortly there after. But if you just want to play elr for fun a 7mm will work if your stuck on the idea of a 7mm then do a 7mm wsm in a long action seat bullets way out with a long throat it will out preform just about anything except a Norma mag necked down to 7mm and imp or a 338 ultra mag necked down to 7mm improved will also work well. but your better off going with a 30 caliber like a 300 norma improved or a 300-338ultra mag improved considering the 230 grain bullets from sierra have almost the same bc as the 300 grain berger 338 caliber bullets I hope that does not step on the toes of the 7mm fan boys but the truth hurts some times. we are seeing shifts in bullet world companies are making bullets now that change past views like the sierra 230 grain 308 and the blackjack sierra 130 grain .257 making the 140 6.5 vld obsolete. Plus all you guys worried about barrel life the 300 will have longer throat life then the 7mm will.

 

[flyer]

ELRish is what I'm going for.

I have a 6.5 Creedmoor I can probably stretch out to 1,500 but a mile is asking too much probably and 2,000 is wishful thinking.

I know if I want to go deep in to ELR, I should be looking at .338 Lapua as the entry point but I have shot one and it's just not something I would look forward to shooting very often.

I'm just trying to figure out something I can shoot frequently without going broke on bullets, powder or barrels, in a normal size long action with a case head matching an available bolt.

If it can do ok at a mile, it should do ok at 1,000 and closer, it won't be entirely single purpose.

 

[camotoe]

280ai will get there and it's cheap... 284 you will be competing with br guys for brass. Nobody gives a shit about 30.06

 

[Sig Marine]

Flyer,
As you mentioned in your OP, recoil is a consideration as well as roughly 1500 yards. Depending on your DA, the .284 will serve your needs without breaking the bank or your shoulder. Mine doesn't have any more felt recoil than a 6.5. In my opinion, it has better performance at distance than a 6.5 Creedmoor and it's easier to see splash with a heavier bullet. I built mine in a Bighorn Long Action TL-3 with a standard (.308) bolt face. One plus to the Bighorns, bolt faces are relatively inexpensive (must less than buying another bolt) and can be swapped out in less than 2 minutes should you decide to go to a magnum caliber in the future.

 

[Bradu]

Of course, I am referring to guys running 300fps less and maybe run a 300grain Berger verses a 255 grain Warner (thats a bad example because the BC is very high o that one) or CE.. You really see it with guys thinking they need the 147 6.5 at all costs.. or a barley stable 7mm that is never getting the stated BC because it is too slow and trans creates more drag

I don't understand the obsession with wanting to run the 147 with smaller calibers.

 

[camotoe]

The br guys are going away from 7wsm as its to overbore and the 300wsm kicks it's ass.. A 7wsm on longer action would be nice

 

[flyer]

On the 6.5 Creedmoor, the 147 ELD-M seems to shoot with velocity similar to the 140 ELD-M so in guns that like the heavy bullets it is more BC for free.

If that's true in your rifle, it would be silly not to run them unless you have something better.

I'm going to be building up an ARC Archimedes long action for this ELDish rifle. It also has interchangeable bolt heads. I ordered a .473" but I can buy another or maybe update my pre-order if I figure out I need a different size.

 

[Odysseus1911]

I would not consider a 7mm as a true elr caliber elr-ish perhaps but most elr matches start 1500 yards so your done shortly there after. But if you just want to play elr for fun a 7mm will work if your stuck on the idea of a 7mm then do a 7mm wsm in a long action seat bullets way out with a long throat it will out preform just about anything except a Norma mag necked down to 7mm and imp or a 338 ultra mag necked down to 7mm improved will also work well. but your better off going with a 30 caliber like a 300 norma improved or a 300-338ultra mag improved considering the 230 grain bullets from sierra have almost the same bc as the 300 grain berger 338 caliber bullets I hope that does not step on the toes of the 7mm fan boys but the truth hurts some times. we are seeing shifts in bullet world companies are making bullets now that change past views like the sierra 230 grain 308 and the blackjack sierra 130 grain .257 making the 140 6.5 vld obsolete. Plus all you guys worried about barrel life the 300 will have longer throat life then the 7mm will.

So much wrong here.

"Wouldn't consider 7mm an ELR caliber. ELR-ish perhaps. ." Then goes on to suggest that 300 Norma improved or 338 RUM improved necked down to 7mm would be ok. Oh, but you know what would be so much better? The same two cases in 30 cal because the new 30 cal. 230 grain SMk has a .800 g1 BC. And clearly, everyone knows that 7mm is vastly inferior to .308 caliber so this whole thread about 7mm is just a waste of everyone's time, right?

Guess what? The 7mm 180 grain ELD-M has the same BC (.796 g1) as the 30 cal. 230 SMK (.800 g1) and it's 50 grains lighter. So in any of the parent cases you mentioned, the 7mm pushing the 180 ELD-M will match the BC of the 230 SMK and will have a 250-350 fps velocity advantage while ALSO producing less recoil. The truth does indeed hurt sometimes, but I don't think it's the 7mm fanboys feeling the pain.

Also, neck length and shoulder angle have as much or more of an effect on throat life than bore diameter. Improving the shoulders to 40 degrees and having a decently long neck often substantially increase throat life.

 

[257 Blackjack]

Just noticed the Shortmag comment - for OP's main requirements 7-300 Win or 7-300 Norma in long barrels fits the bill after the no-short mag qualification

I didn't see any energy and range requirements in the OP but wanted to drop some surprising #'s for anyone who just needs hit % out to 2100 yds.

Hit % is only half the battle of course. Miss Signature and if you're trying to kill something, this little round is only really usable to kill to 1000-1150 yards at average altitudes and miss signature dries up around 1400-1500 yards.

The reason these #'s were oiriginally generated is that I wanted to check the handicap of our 25 Cal 131 ACE vs the match winning 7-300 Norma and similar ballistic cousins since we are offering $10,000 to any 25 Cal shooter who may win the Q Creek ELR match to 2100 yards this summer. We are also offering $2570 to the highest placing 25 Cal shooter regardless of finish. These target sizes shown are the actual target sizes at range for the Q Creek ELR Match.

If I missed something about energy requirements please correct me and I'll remove this as not to hijack. It seemed the OP's main concerns were Recoil and Component Cost.

If we are talking hit % then these AB Analytics Hit Probabilities are actually meaningful for someone who wants to hit stuff from 3/4 to 1 mile and not get pounded doing it. With the increase in popularity and reliability of flashers this approach should not be such an issue.

The flashers basically grew into existence from guys dropping points when the PRS style matches regularly went to 1400+ yards but crept closer to 1100 yds when 6mm grew in popularity. Thankfully flashers helped get some long pokes back on the COF.

It's a bit late but tomorrow I'll put together an edited overbore index of these specific cartridges for a basic barrel life Point of Reference.

MV & Projectile Stats are really the nominally paired indicators but of course many guys want a cartridge tied to that pairing:

28 Nosler and the 7 Super Mags
25 SST or a slow rolling 25 SAUM / 25 PRC or downloaded 257 WBY
300 Norma equivalents
338 Lapua

Recoil calcs from JBM

Drop

Wind

 

[257 Blackjack]

Made ELR Favorites addition to an edited version of Accurate Shooter's Overbore Index to serve as simple comparison.

Comparing 25 SST, 28 Nosler, 300 Norma, and 338 Lapua, the 338 comes out at the lowest Overbore Index with the highest recoil by far with the 25 SST in second Overbore Index and lowest recoil by over 50%.

338 Lapua - 32.1 lbs Recoil - 1272 OI
25 SST - 10.1 lbs Recoil - 1349 OI
300 Norma - 23.25 lbs Recoil - 1382 OI
28 Nosler - 21 lbs Recoil - 1571 OI

Interesting stuff. It's really a pick your poison thing based on acceptable recoil levels, acceptable component cost, and downrange energy requirements. The minor differences in Hit Probability would likely be meaningless compared to the Wind Reading Certainty of the compared shooters.

There's no doubt geometrically the 215 Hybrid is one of the most well balanced aggressive-for-weight designs on the market but the little 131 ACE isn't a slouch either.

* note on 28 Nosler - I averaged a commonly reported H20 Capacity with the MFG reported capacity.

 

[SporterII]

I ordered a 7mm blank right after speaking with ADG regarding upcoming 7mag. brass coming.
They have produced very good brass in 300 and I believe they have this covered.

 

[sandwarrior]

I ordered a 7mm blank right after speaking with ADG regarding upcoming 7mag. brass coming.
They have produced very good brass in 300 and I believe they have this covered.

what twist?

 

[flyer]

That .257 bullet looks really interesting and I think I want to make a wildcat for it, 6 Gay Tiger necked up to quarter bore and called .25 Merv Griffin.

Probably not an ELR round but it would fit in a short action, less overbore than Dasher probably, I think that might be a good pairing.

I understand the importance of miss signature and that's why I want to go up from 6.5mm to 7mm but I'm not sure I want to go up to .28 Nosler.

I think I would like a little more juice than a .284 Shehane but without the wildcat brass.

Maybe I should just suck it up, go 7WSM and load long?

 

[SporterII]

what twist?

8.5

 

[badassgunworks]

So much wrong here.

"Wouldn't consider 7mm an ELR caliber. ELR-ish perhaps. ." Then goes on to suggest that 300 Norma improved or 338 RUM improved necked down to 7mm would be ok. Oh, but you know what would be so much better? The same two cases in 30 cal because the new 30 cal. 230 grain SMk has a .800 g1 BC. And clearly, everyone knows that 7mm is vastly inferior to .308 caliber so this whole thread about 7mm is just a waste of everyone's time, right?

Guess what? The 7mm 180 grain ELD-M has the same BC (.796 g1) as the 30 cal. 230 SMK (.800 g1) and it's 50 grains lighter. So in any of the parent cases you mentioned, the 7mm pushing the 180 ELD-M will match the BC of the 230 SMK and will have a 250-350 fps velocity advantage while ALSO producing less recoil. The truth does indeed hurt sometimes, but I don't think it's the 7mm fanboys feeling the pain.

Also, neck length and shoulder angle have as much or more of an effect on throat life than bore diameter. Improving the shoulders to 40 degrees and having a decently long neck often substantially increase throat life.

its clearly obvious you have bought into the sherman short mag bs neck has nothing to do with throat life other then the diameter if the 7mm was so great for elr who is using one for true elr matches beyond 1500 yards. no one simple fact getting butt hurt over my comments are we? call litz ask him witch one is better for elr? you want his home phone # ?

 

[Odysseus1911]

its clearly obvious you have bought into the sherman short mag bs neck has nothing to do with throat life other then the diameter if the 7mm was so great for elr who is using one for true elr matches beyond 1500 yards. no one simple fact getting butt hurt over my comments are we? call litz ask him witch one is better for elr? you want his home phone # ?

I like what I see on paper about the SSs. Everyone loves the SAUMs and the SSs seem to have a slight improvement in performance while based on the SAUM case. I don't know why you would call it BS unless you have some personal beef with Rich Sherman.

I haven't read anything about throat life specifically in the SSs. Most of what I've read about throat life was from articles and discussions between benchrest shooters on accurateshooter.com.

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Short necks=short throat life??

I read awhile back in a PS magazine (I think) about an article that was written in regards to short necks equal short throat life. I kind of brushed it off as something I just didn't want to believe in because it sounded too logical and I had several guns with short throats in my safe. But I...

www.longrangehunting.com

Google search turns up a lot more, but you get the idea. Also, from reading these you can see that it is not some new theory, but it is pretty well-known that neck length has a significant effect on throat life. The benchrest crowd is arguably the world's most knowledgeable and scientifically-rigorous group of shooters, so if they say short necks = short throat life, I'm more inclined to believe them than they type of fellow who chooses to use the word "badass" in the name of his business.

As for ELR matches beyond 1500 yards, the OP never mentioned intending to shoot ELR matches. Furthermore, the OP's definition of ELR seems to be more consistent with the Hide's definition of ELR than yours since there is a subforum here actually titled "ELR - BEYOND 1000 YARDS".

What I want to do is figure out a 7mm with 180+ grain bullets that has decent barrel life, enough velocity to push trans-sonic out to 1,500 yards or more, inexpensive ammo/reloading and won't beat up my shoulder too bad.

I want to have enjoyable and affordable ELR practice without pretending that I'll be King of two miles.

You came into this thread titled "Light-recoiling 7mm ELR and proceed to tell the OP that:
-1500 yards isn't ELR (wrong),
-A 7mm-300 Norma improved or 7mm-338 RUM improved would do well (the OP asked for LIGHT-RECOIL and AFFORDABLE),
-He'd be be better off with the same cases in 30 caliber because higher BC projectiles are available than in 7mm (wrong again AND even more recoil),
-And insult people who like 7mm in a thread about 7mm even though the 7mm ballistically outclasses all 30 caliber offerings with the new bullets you mentioned.

If you really do have Litz's home phone number, why would I be impressed? I'm sure Litz has at least one or two stupid friends just like I do.

 

[Matthew488]

I don't understand the obsession with wanting to run the 147 with smaller calibers.

In my 6.5 Creedmoor the drop at 1000y is pretty much the same with 140 hybrid or the 147 eld-m. When I finish the 140s that I have I'll be switching to the 147s both because my barrel likes them better and they cost a little less.

 

[Bradu]

In my 6.5 Creedmoor the drop at 1000y is pretty much the same with 140 hybrid or the 147 eld-m. When I finish the 140s that I have I'll be switching to the 147s both because my barrel likes them better and they cost a little less.

If we are just talking drop, the 130's do better than the 140 or 147 at a 1000 out of my rifles

 

[sandwarrior]

If we are just talking drop, the 130's do better than the 140 or 147 at a 1000 out of my rifles

123 Lapua's do even better to 1k. IME though, They are not top dog past that. Although, a friend who I have not seen posting here for a while, @264shooter, has taken them to a mile.

OP, yeah, you can make a mile with most any good high BC 7mm or even 6.5 and 6mm bullet.

 

[Bradu]

123 Lapua's do even better to 1k. IME though, They are not top dog past that. Although, a friend who I have seen posting here for a while, @264shooter has taken them to a mile.

OP, yeah, you can make a mile with most any good high BC 7mm or even 6.5 and 6mm bullet.

I'm still running 123 amax's for most of my shooting in the 6.5s. I never have tried them in the saum to see how they do. That's why I made the original comment, the heavy bullets excel past about 1200.

 

[badassgunworks]

I like what I see on paper about the SSs. Everyone loves the SAUMs and the SSs seem to have a slight improvement in performance while based on the SAUM case. I don't know why you would call it BS unless you have some personal beef with Rich Sherman.

I haven't read anything about throat life specifically in the SSs. Most of what I've read about throat life was from articles and discussions between benchrest shooters on accurateshooter.com.

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Short necks=short throat life??

I read awhile back in a PS magazine (I think) about an article that was written in regards to short necks equal short throat life. I kind of brushed it off as something I just didn't want to believe in because it sounded too logical and I had several guns with short throats in my safe. But I...

www.longrangehunting.com

Google search turns up a lot more, but you get the idea. Also, from reading these you can see that it is not some new theory, but it is pretty well-known that neck length has a significant effect on throat life. The benchrest crowd is arguably the world's most knowledgeable and scientifically-rigorous group of shooters, so if they say short necks = short throat life, I'm more inclined to believe them than they type of fellow who chooses to use the word "badass" in the name of his business.

As for ELR matches beyond 1500 yards, the OP never mentioned intending to shoot ELR matches. Furthermore, the OP's definition of ELR seems to be more consistent with the Hide's definition of ELR than yours since there is a subforum here actually titled "ELR - BEYOND 1000 YARDS".




You came into this thread titled "Light-recoiling 7mm ELR and proceed to tell the OP that:
-1500 yards isn't ELR (wrong),
-A 7mm-300 Norma improved or 7mm-338 RUM improved would do well (the OP asked for LIGHT-RECOIL and AFFORDABLE),
-He'd be be better off with the same cases in 30 caliber because higher BC projectiles are available than in 7mm (wrong again AND even more recoil),
-And insult people who like 7mm in a thread about 7mm even though the 7mm ballistically outclasses all 30 caliber offerings with the new bullets you mentioned.

If you really do have Litz's home phone number, why would I be impressed? I'm sure Litz has at least one or two stupid friends just like I do.

I personally have no issues with rich Sherman at all he is a nice guy but the idea of taking a saum case pushing the shoulder back to obtain a longer neck to loose useable capacity then improving it to regain what you lost to run it at same pressures that you would have before . having the same aol of the case ?? being at the case restriction as far as volume x volume x bore diameter x duration x pressure x burn rate all equels the same end results and considering that on all cartridges that there is a abnormal spike on ignition and not a progressive even pressure increase the longer necks could increase that ignition spike causing more heat and throat eroation . sorry for making you guys up set ill walk away have a great life

 

[badassgunworks]

flyer sorry I made a comment on you post ill go away now