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LMT 308.... is it the best 308?
- Thread starter DrDeath
- Start date
My opinion. In an AR10 configuration...LMT rocks...you get a super rigid platform that soaks up the .308 ... the oz chasing ninja warriors will tell you otherwise though.
I'll take a LMT MWS over any other AR10...KAC to me, other than the name, doesn't really justify the increase in cost...
I HIGHLY recommend LMT's 18" 5R barrel...
My ONLY complaint with LMT is that they overgas them...you can mitigate this PROPERLY by installing an adjustable gas key on the BCG vs overspringing and over buffering the system...
However, if we are talking about the best .308...to me that is the SCAR 20...out of all the semi auto .308s I've had...the 20S just feels great as an all purpose rifle...I did install a Mk17 fixed military stock vs the precision one as I prefer the UGG boot...and in that configuration...my 20" SCAR weighs as much as my old LMT 16" rifle did ...
I'll take a LMT MWS over any other AR10...KAC to me, other than the name, doesn't really justify the increase in cost...
I HIGHLY recommend LMT's 18" 5R barrel...
My ONLY complaint with LMT is that they overgas them...you can mitigate this PROPERLY by installing an adjustable gas key on the BCG vs overspringing and over buffering the system...
However, if we are talking about the best .308...to me that is the SCAR 20...out of all the semi auto .308s I've had...the 20S just feels great as an all purpose rifle...I did install a Mk17 fixed military stock vs the precision one as I prefer the UGG boot...and in that configuration...my 20" SCAR weighs as much as my old LMT 16" rifle did ...
He is actually correct. The SR25 IS the proven large frame gasser. They essentially took the dead AR10 with the help of Eugene Stoner and created what is the modern Large Frame AR. Virtually all of the innovation and evolution of the platform is due to Knights.
LMT which has a working relationship with KAC as they both make parts for each other, really revolutionized the platform with their quick change barrel system.
Now I think the LMT is actually a better system for the end user due to price & cheap replacement barrels as well as being able to cheaply change barrels. $550 match grade drop in barrels........no brainer.
Both are the King and Queen of Large frame guns, and by a significant margin. Everything else is a blimp on the map in comparison.
FAL, G3, 417 are all piston guns.
LMT which has a working relationship with KAC as they both make parts for each other, really revolutionized the platform with their quick change barrel system.
Now I think the LMT is actually a better system for the end user due to price & cheap replacement barrels as well as being able to cheaply change barrels. $550 match grade drop in barrels........no brainer.
Both are the King and Queen of Large frame guns, and by a significant margin. Everything else is a blimp on the map in comparison.
FAL, G3, 417 are all piston guns.
I sold my 17 to buy a MWS. Was going to buy a 20S but the problem is FN.
Barrel will get shot out in 6.5CM and FN will not make any spares , nor any of the kits/packs they promised that STILL haven't been released for the Scar 16 and 17 after 10+ years of production. Why would that change now?
MWS was $1k cheaper and I can actually get parts and barrels for it (covid withstanding).
Barrel will get shot out in 6.5CM and FN will not make any spares , nor any of the kits/packs they promised that STILL haven't been released for the Scar 16 and 17 after 10+ years of production. Why would that change now?
MWS was $1k cheaper and I can actually get parts and barrels for it (covid withstanding).
no, read it again and if you don't understand what is said, I feel sorry for you.
ONLY 2 have the testing, usage, and history to validate the top of the heap. You want to feel good looking in the mirror over 2 guys using a JP, LaRue etc etc, great if you need that but the reality is, KAC AND LMT are the only two at the top with real usage, the rest are looking up. FACTS
ONLY 2 have the testing, usage, and history to validate the top of the heap. You want to feel good looking in the mirror over 2 guys using a JP, LaRue etc etc, great if you need that but the reality is, KAC AND LMT are the only two at the top with real usage, the rest are looking up. FACTS
lmt in 308 and scar 17 are two rifles i just won't get rid of. However, for practicality the lmt wins bar none. As mentioned above it's difficult and expensive to get parts for your scar. My lmt is set up with an 18inch barrel and nightforce 4-16 and it shoots lights out. I have so many lmt barrels now, it's getting to the point of ridiculousness. But i blow through a lot of ammo every year, and so yes i shoot them out.
My scar 17 is set up for lightweight work with an acog rmr. Great for running and gunning, but that thin barrel starts to see some POA shift after dumping a mag through it. Also, the other big thing that sucks with the scar, is you buy it and to get it where you want it it needs a ton of upgrades. i did the trigger, grip, handguard, and stock. It took me over $1k in upgrades to get it where i wanted it. By the time you are all done, you are in sr25 price territory. With the lmt, take it out of the box, and it's ready to go.
I really want to get my hands on a scar 20s, previously i was gonna go for 6.5 but with the cost of ammo on 6.5 at $3-4 a round, it's just not practical.
My scar 17 is set up for lightweight work with an acog rmr. Great for running and gunning, but that thin barrel starts to see some POA shift after dumping a mag through it. Also, the other big thing that sucks with the scar, is you buy it and to get it where you want it it needs a ton of upgrades. i did the trigger, grip, handguard, and stock. It took me over $1k in upgrades to get it where i wanted it. By the time you are all done, you are in sr25 price territory. With the lmt, take it out of the box, and it's ready to go.
I really want to get my hands on a scar 20s, previously i was gonna go for 6.5 but with the cost of ammo on 6.5 at $3-4 a round, it's just not practical.
How many fucking LMT / KAC fanboy threads do we need on this fucking site. If you seriously think these are the only two company’s who have their products being used down range then you’re out of the loop
I have a LMT MWSE 16 CL with exactly 1630 rounds fired. I really like it. I also have two other AR308 in Mega ma10.
On the positive side
Excellent reliability, ruggedness
Good accuracy (43.5 IMR-4064 under 168 smk 2.80 col gives me 1 Moa consistently )
barrel swap is obviously easy
Trigger is better than most factory triggers
On the negative side
You pretty much have to use LMT barrels which limits choices and availability
Swapping uppers is only compatible with mega ( now zev), stag, sr25 and only with changing or modifying takedown pins
Overall, top of the line quality best I can tell
However, if you have the time and inclination I would recommend building up a AR308 from either Stag or Zev.
Less cost but ultimately equal accuracy
Maybe not as easy to get super reliable cycling but a valuable learning experience
I have two Mega ( .308) and one Stag (6.5 CM)
I am very happy with as well
On the positive side
Excellent reliability, ruggedness
Good accuracy (43.5 IMR-4064 under 168 smk 2.80 col gives me 1 Moa consistently )
barrel swap is obviously easy
Trigger is better than most factory triggers
On the negative side
You pretty much have to use LMT barrels which limits choices and availability
Swapping uppers is only compatible with mega ( now zev), stag, sr25 and only with changing or modifying takedown pins
Overall, top of the line quality best I can tell
However, if you have the time and inclination I would recommend building up a AR308 from either Stag or Zev.
Less cost but ultimately equal accuracy
Maybe not as easy to get super reliable cycling but a valuable learning experience
I have two Mega ( .308) and one Stag (6.5 CM)
I am very happy with as well
Forgot weight as a possible negative
LMTs in 308 are very front heavy due to the monolith upper. I wouldn't want to hunt or march all day with it
LMTs in 308 are very front heavy due to the monolith upper. I wouldn't want to hunt or march all day with it
All three of my LMT barrels like this load:
IMR-4064 43.5 win brass 168 smk 2.80 col. I know 3 shot group BFD but I have shot a 10 shot group in 0.5 I just didn't take a photo. So yeah they can be accurate. I find artillery hold works best
IMR-4064 43.5 win brass 168 smk 2.80 col. I know 3 shot group BFD but I have shot a 10 shot group in 0.5 I just didn't take a photo. So yeah they can be accurate. I find artillery hold works best
Just Picked up a brand new SR-25 Complete lower today from LGS
Want to guess how much it will sell on GB?
Want to guess how much it will sell on GB?
While I agree that LMT/KAC are not the only reliable or combat proven platforms but they are the tip of the spear so to speak. Think about it, they are used the most and are constantly being improved, many of the others are not or not being improved as rapidly.
I admire KAC as a company because they are truly innovative and are probably the biggest driving force in keeping the AR system relevant for as long as it has been but.... There comes a point of no return in my mind as a individual end user. All of the proprietary barrel nuts, gas blocks, wrenches etc.... When one can not do their own barrel change and it has to go back to the factory for such or to a certified armorer is nuts to me. Now you have taken a simple design and over complicated it in the name of improvement. For an organization with a structure in place to have people trained to keep the SR25s in working order this will not be an issue but for me as an individual its a deal breaker.
Again it's a personal decision I make, I have burnt out .308 AR barrels and I can change them inside of 30 minutes. I like that I don't have to send it out and wait two weeks or more or pay someone to do something that I can do myself. I'm not knocking anyone that does choose to go this route but it's not for me.
At one point I flirted with the idea of switching over my AR-10s (Armalites) to LMT but when I really sat down and thought but what will I actually achieve by doing this I didn't see it worth the hassle. My Armalites have been used and abused, taken through various schools. Shot dry suppressed, dirty, wet, muddy and they kept going. As I have said in other threads along these lines Armalite, LMT and KAC share alot of DNA. Some of the same people from LMT and Armalite worked together at one time on the AR-10. I remember speaking with Gene at LMT many years ago on the phone about it. I will say because of their contracts LMT/KAC have probably surpassed Armalite, Larue and whomever else in their developments but one must ask themselves how is it measured? How will you see it? Is the cost worth it? Only the end user can decide that. If I were starting over in the .308 AR game again I would go LMT with out a doubt because of their reputation and most importantly because you can buy spare parts when they are available and you can keep your rifle running. But I don’t feel I’m losing anything other than the quick change barrel by not switching over. My Armalite has been reliable under adverse conditions and I have enough parts to keep mine running quite a while.
There is a difference in a duty worthy rifle and a cookie cutter put together PSA going from the bag to the bench to the bag again. But to say or think KAC/LMT is the only duty worthy option is kinda short sighted. You can argue they may be the best but certainly not the only viable option.
I admire KAC as a company because they are truly innovative and are probably the biggest driving force in keeping the AR system relevant for as long as it has been but.... There comes a point of no return in my mind as a individual end user. All of the proprietary barrel nuts, gas blocks, wrenches etc.... When one can not do their own barrel change and it has to go back to the factory for such or to a certified armorer is nuts to me. Now you have taken a simple design and over complicated it in the name of improvement. For an organization with a structure in place to have people trained to keep the SR25s in working order this will not be an issue but for me as an individual its a deal breaker.
Again it's a personal decision I make, I have burnt out .308 AR barrels and I can change them inside of 30 minutes. I like that I don't have to send it out and wait two weeks or more or pay someone to do something that I can do myself. I'm not knocking anyone that does choose to go this route but it's not for me.
At one point I flirted with the idea of switching over my AR-10s (Armalites) to LMT but when I really sat down and thought but what will I actually achieve by doing this I didn't see it worth the hassle. My Armalites have been used and abused, taken through various schools. Shot dry suppressed, dirty, wet, muddy and they kept going. As I have said in other threads along these lines Armalite, LMT and KAC share alot of DNA. Some of the same people from LMT and Armalite worked together at one time on the AR-10. I remember speaking with Gene at LMT many years ago on the phone about it. I will say because of their contracts LMT/KAC have probably surpassed Armalite, Larue and whomever else in their developments but one must ask themselves how is it measured? How will you see it? Is the cost worth it? Only the end user can decide that. If I were starting over in the .308 AR game again I would go LMT with out a doubt because of their reputation and most importantly because you can buy spare parts when they are available and you can keep your rifle running. But I don’t feel I’m losing anything other than the quick change barrel by not switching over. My Armalite has been reliable under adverse conditions and I have enough parts to keep mine running quite a while.
There is a difference in a duty worthy rifle and a cookie cutter put together PSA going from the bag to the bench to the bag again. But to say or think KAC/LMT is the only duty worthy option is kinda short sighted. You can argue they may be the best but certainly not the only viable option.
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Shhh he’s policing SH. Thank god he’s here to snuff out a duplicate thread. God forbid information be repeated or discussed multiple times.
I shoot sub MOA and have seen tons of sub MOA groups from stock LMT MWS rifles. I do have a Hiperfire trigger. So if that makes it non stock so be it. Here's 3 from the last few months. I got bored looking for more in my pictures.
I was told by a employee of ga precision that everything but the barrel is seekins. The kit is shipped to them where they put a bartlein barrel on and there you go.
CL barrels can indeed shoot sub-MOA. Here is the very first 100-yard group I shot from my 16”CL MWS some years back- was using 165gr Federal TRU back then but now I exclusively run 175 SMK with great success.
They made the receivers. You do realize that most builders of AR rifles use receivers made by a vendor, right? Along with trigger, buffers, springs, bolts and carriers?
ga assembles and finalizes product but parts are made for them except chambering the bartlein barrel.
That’s a really good point, I’ve been holding back on getting a 20s because I wanted a 6.5. Ive been leaning towards the 308 lately instead. Your spot on with FN!
not sure what he is saying, but you can get 16s and 17s barrel assemblies in various configuration for $1200-$1300 when they are in stock someplace.
you can also get barrels and assemblies from aftermarket makers.
we just don't have anything for the 20S yet, and i would expect them sometime after the entire rifles start sitting on shelves.
as long as they are selling as many complete rifles as they can make, i doubt they will start selling the parts that are not the same as the 17S.
you can also get barrels and assemblies from aftermarket makers.
we just don't have anything for the 20S yet, and i would expect them sometime after the entire rifles start sitting on shelves.
as long as they are selling as many complete rifles as they can make, i doubt they will start selling the parts that are not the same as the 17S.
Moved to Main Forum seeking opinions
I have 3 POF's a 6.5 CM , 308, and 6.8 SPC and also a LWRCI REPR II 6.5, my son has an M6a2- all of them shoot sub moa with match ammo, hardly ever or never fail to fire, are clean running and shoot with my Thunderbeast can no problem (except the M6a2) - both companies have great customer service.
I always wanted an H&K but it seems heavy and expensive - although I imagine it is amazing. As the OP said Ar-15 and 308 in the same sentence I hope I am allowed to mention my piston guns here without too much blowback.
I have no religious beliefs about DI vs Piston - I chose Piston because they are easy to clean, easily adjust for suppressors and don't have any gas near your face in an indoor range - they just worked for me. I think the KAC 6.5 with the 22 in barrel is highly desirable and for DI that would be what I would choose.
The only downsides I see with my guns are they are all a bit front end-heavy due to the piston system, I have to use single piece 20 MOA scope mounts (heavy) due to the way the rails are, and they are proprietary and not easy to get barrels for - I love the Proof carbon on the LWRC and wish I could buy those or other cut rifled barrels (or any third party) for the POF's - although when I had a barrel problem on the 6.8 SPC POF had one special ordered for me since they no longer offer them, replaced it for free - no questions asked and even answer their phones and are nice to me. When the 308 had problems with the Thunderbeast since it has more back pressure than most cans they even made a custom mod to the gun - again for free. It now works perfect.
The REPR was VERY expensive but worth it, and the POF's can be had for a bargain IMHO considering the quality.
I have 3 POF's a 6.5 CM , 308, and 6.8 SPC and also a LWRCI REPR II 6.5, my son has an M6a2- all of them shoot sub moa with match ammo, hardly ever or never fail to fire, are clean running and shoot with my Thunderbeast can no problem (except the M6a2) - both companies have great customer service.
I always wanted an H&K but it seems heavy and expensive - although I imagine it is amazing. As the OP said Ar-15 and 308 in the same sentence I hope I am allowed to mention my piston guns here without too much blowback.
I have no religious beliefs about DI vs Piston - I chose Piston because they are easy to clean, easily adjust for suppressors and don't have any gas near your face in an indoor range - they just worked for me. I think the KAC 6.5 with the 22 in barrel is highly desirable and for DI that would be what I would choose.
The only downsides I see with my guns are they are all a bit front end-heavy due to the piston system, I have to use single piece 20 MOA scope mounts (heavy) due to the way the rails are, and they are proprietary and not easy to get barrels for - I love the Proof carbon on the LWRC and wish I could buy those or other cut rifled barrels (or any third party) for the POF's - although when I had a barrel problem on the 6.8 SPC POF had one special ordered for me since they no longer offer them, replaced it for free - no questions asked and even answer their phones and are nice to me. When the 308 had problems with the Thunderbeast since it has more back pressure than most cans they even made a custom mod to the gun - again for free. It now works perfect.
The REPR was VERY expensive but worth it, and the POF's can be had for a bargain IMHO considering the quality.
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It looks like FN finally listed the Mk20 6.5 barrel and to no surprise, a barrel is 50% percent of the price of the complete rifle and are out of stock...
https://fnestore.com/fn-scar20s-barrels-65-762
Neat concept and its something that I want to like but I just can't...
I think that LMT > KAC. KAC uses parts manufactured by LMT and not the other way around. The LMC monolithic upper is a more stable platform than KAC, the barrel change again favors LMT. My only real gripe with LMT is that I prefer the same trigger on my ARs (Geissle).
I have both and i really think it all depends what the user is doing as to what may make more sense.
I think that KAC is a touch more refined, for example The KAC's gas system, has been revised a couple of times. I think they have some pretty nice cans and muzzle devices, they are a touch lighter because of the barrel nut and most importantly they "appear" to have better QC at the moment. From a practical, accuracy, and reliability standpoint They pretty much arrive at the same end point via different paths.
With that being said, I shoot my MWS's more than my SR25 because for as good as it is, its allways going to be a 16 inch 308. I may want to do 13.5 barrel stuff or i may want to do 20 inch 6.5 barrel stuff. Thats not an option with KAC at this time. I paid 4200 for mine a few years ago, but I have no clue what they are going for right now as they have no ability at this moment to support product demand and you have current production stuff being flipped on GB for 15 to 20k on the low end. I like KAC, but prices have gone into a bizarre/Rolex world.
As a matter of fact, if anybody wants to trade a Daytona for a low round count ACC, hit me up.
I just think the if LMT could clean up qc a bit, there would be no discussion as KAC.
I think that KAC is a touch more refined, for example The KAC's gas system, has been revised a couple of times. I think they have some pretty nice cans and muzzle devices, they are a touch lighter because of the barrel nut and most importantly they "appear" to have better QC at the moment. From a practical, accuracy, and reliability standpoint They pretty much arrive at the same end point via different paths.
With that being said, I shoot my MWS's more than my SR25 because for as good as it is, its allways going to be a 16 inch 308. I may want to do 13.5 barrel stuff or i may want to do 20 inch 6.5 barrel stuff. Thats not an option with KAC at this time. I paid 4200 for mine a few years ago, but I have no clue what they are going for right now as they have no ability at this moment to support product demand and you have current production stuff being flipped on GB for 15 to 20k on the low end. I like KAC, but prices have gone into a bizarre/Rolex world.
As a matter of fact, if anybody wants to trade a Daytona for a low round count ACC, hit me up.
I just think the if LMT could clean up qc a bit, there would be no discussion as KAC.
I 100% agree. Kac is a little more refined but not by much. You got to remember what the guns are built for. Lmt and kac cater to the military. The guns have to be reliable number 1 then all the other features come after that.
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