LMT .308 MWS

[MidwestPX]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Well la dee dah...LMT sent a new shipment of rifles on Friday...hopefully I get them this week...

 

[liezone]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the weight before the re-contour?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: liezone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had my barrel re-profiled by ADCO and the finished weight is 2.75lbs without flash hider on a calibrated scale. I am going to send it back to them for a new crown. I probably does not need it, but it does not look so refined at the moment. I hope they do good work on crowns like they did on the barrel. Besides, I am sending another barrel to them for some work anyway.

I'll do some accuracy testing when it gets back. </div></div> </div></div>

Well, sorry about that but I don't have great news for you. I weighed it with flash hider and gas tube on a digital bathroom scale and got 3# flat prior to sending it to ADCO. I am sure the accuracy of that scale is not the greatest. I didn't have access to the calibrated digital scale at the time.

Anyone out there have an accurate weight of the lmt barrel with no modification?

I have to admit that the barrel <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">doesn't</span></span> feel much lighter now with the re-contour.

 

[bubbapug1]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

So...how much do you want for your MWS?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Postal0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wasn't too impressed with my first response from LMT. However since then communication has been great.

I think the MWS is a great platform offering a good deal of performance for the price. Here's hoping that no one else has the issues I have had. There is a bitter history between LMT and me as I have had issues with many LMT products in the past. That is the reason and story behind my sig-line. LMT produces great products, but had poor quality control. However in the past, and currently I have had to repair to replace LMT products. I do believe that LMT will take care of this current issue.

If your going to buy a MWS, please inspect it carefully before you take possession of it. Of course, you should inspect any firearm before you buy it.</div></div>

 

[Postal0311]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

If you are serious, IM me.

 

[Boris]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

OK, who has one of the new 18" or 20" SS barrles? How do they group?

 

[MidwestPX]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Finally got these in...

 

[MidwestPX]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Anyone else have an issue getting the bolt to go back into the carrier after being taken out?

 

[frankythefly]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

yeah I just turned it upside down with the bolt on the bench and hit the back end of the bolt with a soft mallet. After a few time of doing that you can push it in with your hands.

 

[Postal0311]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Not here. Seems easy enough on mine.

 

[MidwestPX]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

So it took a solid whack with a rubber mallet but it's back together. First time I've ever had to do that...

 

[[email protected]]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Has anyone had anymore issues with the FCG holes, or has anyone gotten an answer from LMT?

 

[MidwestPX]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

My two rifles' FCG holes were perfect

 

[secondstoryguy]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Regarding FCG pins: Mine were slightly loose, nothing major, but moreso than other ARs I have. I mic'd the pins and they were slightly undersize. I called LMT and they were great, they shipped me some .155 pins for free and it tightened the FCG right up.

 

[[email protected]]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Outstanding, good to know thank you guys.

Now to figure out if there is more value in getting an 18" from LMT, or getting the CM 16" and buying the $700 5R barrel with it.

Does anyone have a lot of rounds through this platform suppressed...say with a Surefire 762K?

 

[frank crawley]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Are you guys finding the 18" and 20" bbl. on their website. I looked but can't seem to locate them. Thanks

 

[[email protected]]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

http://www.lmtstore.com/cqb-mrp-barrel.html?p=2

 

[Dsparil]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

has anyone chronographed the 175gr fgmms out of the 16" barrel and checked it's muzzle velocity?

 

[Geld6]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

This is my first post to Sniper's Hide and this thread. I'm getting my LMT LM308MWSE Monday. I wanted to let all of you know how valuable I found your discussions in making my decision. I hope I too can contribute to the group.

I'll let you know my first impressions Monday.

Thank you for the info.

 

[Prairie Dog Dundee]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dsparil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">has anyone chronographed the 175gr fgmms out of the 16" barrel and checked it's muzzle velocity? </div></div>

I got 2378 fps from FGMM 175 grain and 2471 for M118LR which uses the 175g SMK with the 16" CL.

 

[Prairie Dog Dundee]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Geld6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is my first post to Sniper's Hide and this thread. I'm getting my LMT LM308MWSE Monday. I wanted to let all of you know how valuable I found your discussions in making my decision. I hope I too can contribute to the group.

I'll let you know my first impressions Monday.

Thank you for the info. </div></div>

Welcome to the hide. Hope you like the LMT MWS as much as I like mine.

 

[308sniper]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

looking for a adjustable gas block for my DPMS LR-308. .996 barrell anyone know who makes one?

 

[Starvin]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Took my MWS to the range for the first time today to work up a load using 155 Sierra Palmas (because that's what i have available to me).

Thus far the best performance has been using 45.3gr IMR 8208XBR with hornady match brass and 210M primers. Velocity was around 2680fps and I was able to get a 5 shot group around MOA at 100 yards from a fairly unstable rest.

Unfortunately I was getting periodic dropping primers. None fell into the reciever thankfully and I am getting no prssure sighs so they're definately dropped not blown but it's troublesome and needs to be fixed before I can call it an acceptable load.

This evening I installed a Tubb flat wire buffer spring. Hopefully that'll delay unlock long enough to solve the primer dropping problem.

All in all I'm happy. The rifle seems much nicer than my old custom DPMS and I look forward to new barrel options.

 

[KM375]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I have an older DPMS SASS with forward assist, it is more like the new DPMS MK 12. I have fired the SR25's and have had no issues with them. I am looking to get the LMT MWS.

What do you think about the lack of forward assist on the LMT/SR25

 

[Prairie Dog Dundee]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Starvin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Took my MWS to the range for the first time today to work up a load using 155 Sierra Palmas (because that's what i have available to me).

Thus far the best performance has been using 45.3gr IMR 8208XBR with hornady match brass and 210M primers. Velocity was around 2680fps and I was able to get a 5 shot group around MOA at 100 yards from a fairly unstable rest.

Unfortunately I was getting periodic dropping primers. None fell into the reciever thankfully and I am getting no prssure sighs so they're definately dropped not blown but it's troublesome and needs to be fixed before I can call it an acceptable load.

This evening I installed a Tubb flat wire buffer spring. Hopefully that'll delay unlock long enough to solve the primer dropping problem.

All in all I'm happy. The rifle seems much nicer than my old custom DPMS and I look forward to new barrel options. </div></div>

According to my Hodgdon manual you are right at max with that load. What brass are you using? What is your OAL? Thanks

 

[Postal0311]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krm375</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you think about the lack of forward assist on the LMT/SR25 </div></div>

To sum it up:
The lack of a forward assist is a non-issue.

 

[Starvin]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Prairie Dog Dundee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to my Hodgdon manual you are right at max with that load. What brass are you using? What is your OAL? Thanks </div></div>

Yep that's why I stopped there. Factory maxs are usually fairly conservative but I also know better than to try and push a gas gun too hard. Again I wasn't getting any real pressure signs on the brass but the dropped primers wasn't exactly ideal and will be tinkering with the load and hoping the new spring helps delay the unlock enough to ease the problem since a primer dropping into the receiver can freeze a gun up (had it happen with my old DPMS .308). For now I'll be dropping the load down to 44.8gr since that was showing respectable velocities and promising accuracy.

Calipers are showing OAL of ~2.806 (give or take a few thousandths for bullet tip variation). Base to ogive shows about 2.067. I'm using Hornady Match Brass.

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

The signs show up on the primer not the brass.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Starvin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Prairie Dog Dundee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to my Hodgdon manual you are right at max with that load. What brass are you using? What is your OAL? Thanks </div></div>

Yep that's why I stopped there. Factory maxs are usually fairly conservative but I also know better than to try and push a gas gun too hard. Again I wasn't getting any real pressure signs on the brass but the dropped primers wasn't exactly ideal and will be tinkering with the load and hoping the new spring helps delay the unlock enough to ease the problem since a primer dropping into the receiver can freeze a gun up (had it happen with my old DPMS .308). For now I'll be dropping the load down to 44.8gr since that was showing respectable velocities and promising accuracy.

Calipers are showing OAL of ~2.806 (give or take a few thousandths for bullet tip variation). Base to ogive shows about 2.067. I'm using Hornady Match Brass.
</div></div>

 

[Starvin]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

They show up in both, and I'm getting no other signs other than the dropped primers which is a common problem for .308 ARs. However it could still be telling so I'm treating it as a possibility. Either way I won't use a load that drops primers since it's too much of a liability.

I run an overpressured 4895 round in my bolt gun and put a few through my old DPMS the stuff comming out of the MWS with my 8208 loads dosn't look even close to the same.

 

[Prairie Dog Dundee]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Starvin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Prairie Dog Dundee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to my Hodgdon manual you are right at max with that load. What brass are you using? What is your OAL? Thanks </div></div>

Yep that's why I stopped there. Factory maxs are usually fairly conservative but I also know better than to try and push a gas gun too hard. Again I wasn't getting any real pressure signs on the brass but the dropped primers wasn't exactly ideal and will be tinkering with the load and hoping the new spring helps delay the unlock enough to ease the problem since a primer dropping into the receiver can freeze a gun up (had it happen with my old DPMS .308). For now I'll be dropping the load down to 44.8gr since that was showing respectable velocities and promising accuracy.

Calipers are showing OAL of ~2.806 (give or take a few thousandths for bullet tip variation). Base to ogive shows about 2.067. I'm using Hornady Match Brass.
</div></div>

I just loaded up some 155 Sierria Palma and 155 Hornady A Max using 44.8 gr of XBR. I'm also trying VV N140 with the same bullets. If you don't mind my asking, what was the velocity and accuracy measurment on your 44.8 load? Thanks

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

If you see it in the brass your way past where you should be. The primer shows the 1st 75% and last 25% is the brass.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/hoptob/Primers.jpg

http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/pressure1scottys.jpg

http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/copperpressure5x350.jpg


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Starvin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They show up in both, and I'm getting no other signs other than the dropped primers which is a common problem for .308 ARs. However it could still be telling so I'm treating it as a possibility. Either way I won't use a load that drops primers since it's too much of a liability.

I run an overpressured 4895 round in my bolt gun and put a few through my old DPMS the stuff comming out of the MWS with my 8208 loads dosn't look even close to the same. </div></div>

 

[Starvin]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I know, and again I'll restate I am getting no other pressure signs. That includes other tell tale signs in the primers.

However it's probably safe to reaffirm that even with the same model gun and nearly identical load it's important to start any load off light and work your way up.

 

[Starvin]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Prairie Dog Dundee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I just loaded up some 155 Sierria Palma and 155 Hornady A Max using 44.8 gr of XBR. I'm also trying VV N140 with the same bullets. If you don't mind my asking, what was the velocity and accuracy measurment on your 44.8 load? Thanks </div></div>

I was showing around 2650FPS with that load but my chronograph was low on batteries and was giving rather erratic readings. I need to go back to the range to retest them to be sure.

Because I was shooting for velocity and to check for pressure signs I wasn't really focusing on shooting for groups so I can't give a great answer for how accurate it was. I simply made a note next to that load that said "promsing accuracy" with the intent to revisit it. I was able to make a closer evaluation of some of my higher pressure loads because I went back home a loaded up a larger quantity of them to check and devoted 5 rounds of each weight group specifically for shooting a group but even then the sample size is too small to make a final call.

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Starvin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know, and again I'll restate I am getting no other pressure signs. That includes other tell tale signs in the primers.

However it's probably safe to reaffirm that even with the same model gun and nearly identical load it's important to start any load off light and work your way up.

</div></div>

Well then it might be headspace. If the bolt isnt pushing on the back of the brass the primer can pop out the back.

 

[Starvin]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

That is a possibility I hadn't considered.

I had my trimmer set up to shave off a few thousandths more brass than was necessary. I've actually readjusted the trimmer reciently to address this when I was re-calibrating my gear last load session but the newer brass has not worked its way into my reloads.

 

[CE1371]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I ordered one after a Brit let me handle one here in A-stan. Can't wait to get home and giver her a go.

A few questions
-What are you guys using for lube, cleaning, etc?
-I may have missed it but is there a definitive time period for the release of a .260 barrel?
-Has anyone tried the UBR stock?
-What are people's thoughts/experience on cutting the 16" .308 barrel down to 14 or 13" and adding a suppressor? Would it function well?

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

-What are you guys using for lube, cleaning

You are suppose to clean these things? Break free the bolt BCG, dont mess with the barrel untill accuracy fades otherwise a snake is all she needs.

-I may have missed it but is there a definitive time period for the release of a .260 barrel?

Donno but there is a smith in WA who can make you one from an AR-10 barrel.

-Has anyone tried the UBR stock?

Yes you need to replace the buffer and spring to do it.

-What are people's thoughts/experience on cutting the 16" .308 barrel down to 14 or 13" and adding a suppressor? Would it function well?

Non Piston AR's in 308 shouldnt be shorter than 16" Kevin B fron KAC can explain in detail what they learned while playing with different lengths. Also think 13" would be cutting it way close on clearing the handguard...not much of the barrel sticks out to begin with.

 

[Blaster4]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I have the UBR on my LMS. I bought a Slash heavy carbine buffer and spring.

Reason I went with the UBR is because it's heavier than most adj stocks and I wanted to balance the rifle a bit more...we all know the MWS is a pig past the magwell. So even though I have made the overall weight heavier it handles better as the heavier back end helps move the front end quicker.

...I'm also a big fan of the UBR and run it on other heavier carbines that I have.

Respectfully,

--KJ

 

[cyclops24]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I just picked up my LMT 308 SS yesterday. The dealer I bought it from sold it to me for $2175. He had both the chrome lined and stainless steel versions. He wanted $2520 for the chrome lined and I told him there must have been a mix up. He said he would look it up on their computer and said the only difference between the two were the barrels and if I wanted the stainless version it would be $2175 and if I wanted chrome lined it would be $2520. He even pointed on the price tag affixed to the box. I decided to not argue with him and bought the SS version as fast as I could. I had been going back and forth on which barrel to get but this dealer made it very easy for me to decide.

 

[9mmkungfu]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cyclops24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just picked up my LMT 308 SS yesterday. The dealer I bought it from sold it to me for $2175. He had both the chrome lined and stainless steel versions. He wanted $2520 for the chrome lined and I told him there must have been a mix up. He said he would look it up on their computer and said the only difference between the two were the barrels and if I wanted the stainless version it would be $2175 and if I wanted chrome lined it would be $2520. He even pointed on the price tag affixed to the box. I decided to not argue with him and bought the SS version as fast as I could. I had been going back and forth on which barrel to get but this dealer made it very easy for me to decide.

</div></div>

Could you give out his info so I can order one too?

 

[cyclops24]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I am not going to give it out for the simple fact that this had to be a mistake. I even tried pointing it out cause I am not going to come home with a new rifle and wonder if someone will lose their job over this type of mistake. There were even two guys waiting on me and the one who was giving me the price seemed to be the owner since he was ordering other employees around. I totally lucked out on this one. I can gurantee that the SS should have had the $2520 price tag (still a great price) and the CL should have been $2175. At one point the owner said pick one and I am happy to sell it to you because they've been here for a few weeks. He then told the other guy to take care of me and went to help another guy.

 

[cyclops24]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Couple of pics...

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cyclops24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just picked up my LMT 308 SS yesterday. The dealer I bought it from sold it to me for $2175. He had both the chrome lined and stainless steel versions. He wanted $2520 for the chrome lined and I told him there must have been a mix up. He said he would look it up on their computer and said the only difference between the two were the barrels and if I wanted the stainless version it would be $2175 and if I wanted chrome lined it would be $2520. He even pointed on the price tag affixed to the box. I decided to not argue with him and bought the SS version as fast as I could. I had been going back and forth on which barrel to get but this dealer made it very easy for me to decide.

</div></div>

Wow, that is a great deal for you.

I can't wait to hear how it shoots.

 

[softcock]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Wow you got a good price . Just today my bud just unboxed a new LMT with a 16" Cryo. 11-twist stainless barrel today and we ran some rounds down it . He paid considerably more than your quoted 2175-$ & with many weeks wait .
Getting past the beautiful fit, finish & design of this 308 gasgun . The biggest thing that stuck with me after shooting it was how smooth it shot . Even with the shorter barrel 16" barrel it did not have but little muzzle rise and jump, I was expecting more & it's easy to handle . ( No muz. break ) just a birdcage on the muzzle . Very Pleasurable to shoot.
We only shot some factory blackhills out it but was a moa shooter for it's break-in and fondling .

If I want to shoot .308 I shoot Bolt rifle & along with my Boltactions I do shot and have a couple ar15's . I am No .308 Gasgun luver & shooter. But this LMT .308 gasgun was not what I thought or expected it to be when he called me up & out to the range to shot it . It is a beautiful piece of machinery and great on the handling .

WHY, Is this thing so smooth on the Recoil ??? . Is this the way all ar10's feel & shoot ? Even after the post-trigger pull . I can't explain it but it just felt solid & easy ?
.

 

[cyclops24]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Well I am sure the weight of these rifles help. I haven't shot my LMT yet but my two DPMS 308s are fairly soft recoiling especially my heavy ass LRT-SASS. If it wasn't 30 degrees here, I would have shot the LMT yesterday. (I know, I know, man up and shoot it)

 

[MidwestPX]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

$2175 is well below dealer cost on a F model.

I ran my MWS-E through some EAG drills on Friday and have noticed that while recoil is manageable, the follow-up in a hammer drill is hard to place if your form or stance are off in even the smallest degree. Additionally, the trigger reset of the LMT two-stage relative to the SSA I run in my AR15 carbines has room for improvement. The ergo grip plug is irritating as it gets knocked out by recoil after just a couple rounds. Switched to a MOE without anything in the grip core. Lastly, the SOPMOD locks up REALLY tightly on the extension however the adjustment lever is a dealbreaker. I swapped it out for an ACS which had the benefit of adding a few more ounces to the rear end to help balance the front-heavy rifle.

 

[softcock]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

. " <span style="font-style: italic">The ergo grip plug is irritating as it gets knocked out by recoil after just a couple rounds</span>."
-
Ya here too. saw it flopped-out a couple times also.
.

 

[cyclops24]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I have the ERGO on my DPMS 308 and the plug has never came out but the grip on it is much softer than the one on the LMT. Wonder if some shoe goo or something could be used to hold it in place but not glue it permaently shut?

 

[saryan]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$2175 is well below dealer cost on a F model.

I ran my MWS-E through some EAG drills on Friday and have noticed that while recoil is manageable, the follow-up in a hammer drill is hard to place if your form or stance are off in even the smallest degree. Additionally, the trigger reset of the LMT two-stage relative to the SSA I run in my AR15 carbines has room for improvement. The ergo grip plug is irritating as it gets knocked out by recoil after just a couple rounds. Switched to a MOE without anything in the grip core. <span style="font-weight: bold">Lastly, the SOPMOD locks up REALLY tightly on the extension however the adjustment lever is a dealbreaker.</span> I swapped it out for an ACS which had the benefit of adding a few more ounces to the rear end to help balance the front-heavy rifle. </div></div>
I noticed that on mine as well. When I was prepping it to paint I sprayed the whole gun with carb cleaner and the buffer tube had some grey stuff on it that smeared off. Once I removed all of that it was black underneath and slick. My ACS moves much better back and forward now. I also swapped the ERGO out for the MIAD. Much better. All I need is a Gisselle trigger and I will be set! It sucks my Wilson TTU doesnt work in it.

 

[MidwestPX]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Aryan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$2175 is well below dealer cost on a F model.

I ran my MWS-E through some EAG drills on Friday and have noticed that while recoil is manageable, the follow-up in a hammer drill is hard to place if your form or stance are off in even the smallest degree. Additionally, the trigger reset of the LMT two-stage relative to the SSA I run in my AR15 carbines has room for improvement. The ergo grip plug is irritating as it gets knocked out by recoil after just a couple rounds. Switched to a MOE without anything in the grip core. <span style="font-weight: bold">Lastly, the SOPMOD locks up REALLY tightly on the extension however the adjustment lever is a dealbreaker.</span> I swapped it out for an ACS which had the benefit of adding a few more ounces to the rear end to help balance the front-heavy rifle. </div></div>
I noticed that on mine as well. When I was prepping it to paint I sprayed the whole gun with carb cleaner and the buffer tube had some grey stuff on it that smeared off. Once I removed all of that it was black underneath and slick. My ACS moves much better back and forward now. I also swapped the ERGO out for the MIAD. Much better. All I need is a Gisselle trigger and I will be set! It sucks my Wilson TTU doesnt work in it. </div></div>

That grey stuff was the dry film lube that LMT receiver extensions feature. I'm putting an SSA in one of mine as I like the slightly heavier pull compared to the SSA-E.

 

[cyclops24]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Did anyone else have nicks and scratches on their MWS's? Both rifles I looked at when I bought mine had them. Mine had one deep gouge on the right side magwell. I decided to just buy it anyway since I was getting it at a steal and once I got home I used Birchwood Casey black paint pen to cover it. Note that both rifles were not on the dealer shelf where the could be handled. He had them in the backroom, in the plastic, in the box with no sights installed on them.