LMT .308 MWS

[deadly0311]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

negative......7.62 and 308 are close to the same but NOT the same.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338$</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: awmp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I know this has probably been answered but I can't seem to find it, is the LMT MWS .308 or 7.62x51?

The reason I'm asking is I have a lot of 7.62x51 ammo and have narrowed my rifle purchase down to the DPMS SASS 7.62x51mm or the LMT. </div></div>

.308 is the inch measurement
7.62x51 is the metric measurement

close to the same thing.......</div></div>

KYshooter338$

He was referring the the difference in the 7.62x51 NATO and the .308 Winchester rounds. 7.62 NATO, for short, isn't as high of pressure rating as is .308 Win. Not always safe to fire .308 Win in 7.62 NATO rifles

 

[awmp]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I went with the LMT MWS .308.

 

[MSTN]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

 

[Boris]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Been tradeing emails like mad with sales at LMT, MSTN, and my local FFL. Trying to get my hands on one while I'm out of the states working, in time for some training at Rifles Only in Sep. I'll join the club soon!

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Mine arrived. Finally! I have some tan furniture on the way. Like everyone is saying the rifle fit and finish is amazing. I have never seen any AR platform with such tight tolerances. Normally the upper and lower will wiggle back and forth. Not on this gun! Also there are a few nice features like a pinned firing pin retainer. The retainer will slide back but not out. This allows the firing pin to be removed from the BC but you cant lose the retainer pin. Its like the upper and lower push pins in design.

On a side note mine came with a gray film inside the upper receiver. Never seen anything like it. Looks like some kind of spray on lubricant but it sure makes everything messy. I ended up wiping it off with a paper towel.

My trigger is nice with no creep or travel. A bit stiffer than I like but I will see how it breaks in. Maybe a G trigger is on the slate.

I'll post some video and range pictures later today. Im meeting one of my big customers at the range this AM for new rifle break in.

 

[stillbuster]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I plan on running a Mark 4 4.5-14x40 on mine.
Which mount will keep me as close to the bore centerline as possible?

I am undecided as to whether I want a Larue quick release type or just go with Leupold Mark 4's......

Yeah, yeah, yeah I drank the cool aid about 3-4 weeks ago.
It will shoot!
I stuck a Bushnell 3200 on it with some crappy see through mounts that I took off of a trade gun just to see what it would do, as is usually the case the weapon shoots better than I do.
I ordered some of the 15 rd Stubby Pmags from MidwestPX, damn fine guy to do business with, fast shipping and he upgraded my the shipping on his dime!
The Stubby Pmags run so well I just put the KAC mag that came with it back in the box.

 

[MidwestPX]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stillbuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I plan on running a Mark 4 4.5-14x40 on mine.
Which mount will keep me as close to the bore centerline as possible?

I am undecided as to whether I want a Larue quick release type or just go with Leupold Mark 4's......

Yeah, yeah, yeah I drank the cool aid about 3-4 weeks ago.
It will shoot!
I stuck a Bushnell 3200 on it with some crappy see through mounts that I took off of a trade gun just to see what it would do, as is usually the case the weapon shoots better than I do.
I ordered some of the 15 rd Stubby Pmags from MidwestPX, damn fine guy to do business with, fast shipping and he upgraded my the shipping on his dime!
The Stubby Pmags run so well I just put the KAC mag that came with it back in the box.</div></div>

Glad you're happy! I'll be using stubbys with my MWS when it shows up

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Not seeing anything denoting what is for 308...are they the LR20 mags?

IMO it would be better to clearly say "Stubby 308" as I'm not following the nomenclature.

http://midwestpx.com/index.php?cPath=15_87

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Belay that I guess I needed to clicky the linky.

 

[QuietShootr]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Mine shipped today for arrival Tuesday :-D :-D

If it shoots as well as everyone else's, I'm just going to have to have two: one for battle rifle use and the other with the 18" 5R for precision.

Battle rifle first though.

 

[stillbuster]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Any first hand knowledge of these mounts?
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=162354

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stillbuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any first hand knowledge of these mounts?
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=162354 </div></div>

Those are the mounts on my rifle pictured above. They work great and I have no complaints.

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuietShootr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine shipped today for arrival Tuesday :-D :-D

If it shoots as well as everyone else's, I'm just going to have to have two: one for battle rifle use and the other with the 18" 5R for precision.

Battle rifle first though. </div></div>

I will post a range report in 12hrs. Hoping for a small clover leaf.

 

[stillbuster]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuietShootr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine shipped today for arrival Tuesday :-D :-D

If it shoots as well as everyone else's, I'm just going to have to have two: one for battle rifle use and the other with the 18" 5R for precision.

Battle rifle first though. </div></div>

I will post a range report in 12hrs. Hoping for a small clover leaf. </div></div>

If you use some FederalGMM and drive it right she will.
As I have read, so have I found, that driving a gas gun is more challenging than a bolt.

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stillbuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuietShootr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine shipped today for arrival Tuesday :-D :-D

If it shoots as well as everyone else's, I'm just going to have to have two: one for battle rifle use and the other with the 18" 5R for precision.

Battle rifle first though. </div></div>

I will post a range report in 12hrs. Hoping for a small clover leaf. </div></div>

If you use some FederalGMM and drive it right she will.
As I have read, so have I found, that driving a gas gun is more challenging than a bolt. </div></div>

Rodger that. Had a POF 308 before this and it required follow though to make small groups.

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Well, I think I'm sold on this rifle. I'm probably going to wait until the SS barrel comes out before I take the plunge, but the fact that you can have different barrel configs and accessories for such an accurate platform really just sold me. I need to give LMT a call and see if they're taking pre-orders on the SS models.

 

[SSG3K]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Mine functions 100% with the DPMS mags so thats a big plus for me. Shot some 175 bolt gun ammo today not the best but pretty hot in the gun. Tried some Corbon 155 with worse results. Ill go tonight get some brass and 168 bullets and try them tomorrow. This rifle is a keeper. In my opinion this beats any SR25 Ive ever had as far as fit and finish and I can actually get parts and dont have to send the gun in to ge it fixed. Ill probably get another one to set up diffrent with a PRS and a 20 inch barrel.

Rich

 

[SSG3K]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Scope is all I had will replace with a NF at some point.

Rich

 

[MtGoat]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

So the only difference between a #LM308MWSE and a L129A1 is the barrel (twist rate and CM vs blackened stainless)? So if you get a #LM308MWSE and the stainless barrel later, one could build a L129A1 clone? If they are going to be $900 more it sounded as if the new barrel was $900 so it would be a wash or am I missing something?

Pat

 

[MidwestPX]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtGoat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the only difference between a #LM308MWSE and a L129A1 is the barrel (twist rate and CM vs blackened stainless)? So if you get a #LM308MWSE and the stainless barrel later, one could build a L129A1 clone? If they are going to be $900 more it sounded as if the new barrel was $900 so it would be a wash or am I missing something?

Pat</div></div>

You're correct. I'm told the barrel will be somewhere around $600-$900.

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Also what I heard. I spoke with a salesman and he said 6-900 range and NO pre-orders. Barrels would be 16" SS 5R 1-11.25 (edit corrected) and available late summer for order.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtGoat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the only difference between a #LM308MWSE and a L129A1 is the barrel (twist rate and CM vs blackened stainless)? So if you get a #LM308MWSE and the stainless barrel later, one could build a L129A1 clone? If they are going to be $900 more it sounded as if the new barrel was $900 so it would be a wash or am I missing something?

Pat</div></div>

You're correct. I'm told the barrel will be somewhere around $600-$900. </div></div>

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Interesting the L129A1 has a 1:11.25 barrel, I'm curious why the US released SS 5R barrels would be 1:10 other than they are probably not expecting the shooters to be using the 155gr like the Uk is.

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting the L129A1 has a 1:11.25 barrel, I'm curious why the US released SS 5R barrels would be 1:10 other than they are probably not expecting the shooters to be using the 155gr like the Uk is. </div></div>

My bad. Im suffering from a bad headache and trying to think. I meant 1-11.25 twist. Sorry for the snafu.

 

[stillbuster]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSG3K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Scope is all I had will replace with a NF at some point.

Rich </div></div>

Damn, I feel so bad for you that all you had laying around was a crappy old Schmidt&Bender to put on there.
I wish I had your problem........Ha!

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

A few seconds of video the first time I fired the gun. She shoots like a dream. 150 rounds and not a single issue. Really like the gun. Shot about 1 inch (maybe a bit less) but I have a HUGE parallax issue with my scope so I think I can do better. Also the trigger is a bit stiff. Not as good as a G trigger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj0dK0wMjBA

 

[Shumba]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

The LMT .308 MWS sounds like the perfect match for the new S&B PMII 1-8x scope. May have to dip into the kids college fund and buy both!

 

[DARENYANCEY]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I'm now at 250+ in my MWS and no malfunctions of any kind. All I have done to clean it is a pull through and some oil in the three hole in the carrier. I want to see how far it will go with out breaking it down. 40rds were suppressed which adds crap where it eats.

I know this shouldn't be a suprise but all the other AR-10's I have owned had small issues. I will keep posting as the round count climbs.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Sorry if this has been answered before... I am late to the ballgame on this one. What is the relationship between the LMT MWS and the SR-25? If the lower is the same or almost the same, is the design licensed from KAC?

I am just curious because it seems like there ate a lot of Armalite and DPMS variants for 308, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of SR-25 variants. I am just trying to figure out why.

Sorry if the question is dumb. I don't own a gas gun, but am considering one.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

LMT and us (KAC) are friends...

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I am looking at putting the flash suppressor that comes on the SR 25 EMC on my lmt mws in the near future.

However, does this flash suppressor hide flash any better than the a2 birdcage the mws already has?

Anyone have a link to where I could purchase one?

I am not talking about the triple tap brake, but rather the birdcage looking piece that looks two colored in pictures I have seen.

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Short video at the range

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj0dK0wMjBA

By the way I timed my brake and over did it to the left making the rifle torque roll a bit too much the other way. Need to fix that. I also forgot my front sandbag and had to improvise with an ammo box and bean bag for the back. PITA shooting that day.

 

[QuietShootr]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Got mine

So let's review what we know about these guns, courtesy of WES AT M.S.T.N.!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
ALL THREE TRIGGER PULLS CAME IN AT A REASONABLY CRISP 6 LB /- 0.25 LB, WITH MINIMAL OVERTRAVEL, QUITE APPROPRIATE FOR THE RIFLES INTENDED APPLICATION. I DO NOT HAVE ANOTHER LMT 2-STAGE ON HAND TO COMPARE, BUT THE 5.56MM ONES LMT OFFERS USUALLY COME IN LIGHTER, MORE LIKE 4.5 - 5.0 LB. THE TRIGGER DESIGN LOOKS TO BE DIFFERENT, TOO, BASED ON WHAT I CAN RECALL. I PLAN TO UPGRADE ONE OF MINE TO A GEISSELE DMR FOR PRECISION USE WHEN THE STAINLESS BARRELS BECOME AVAILABLE.

WITHOUT SIGHTS, THE RIFLES WEIGH IN EMPTY AT 9 LB 15 OZ ON MY CHICOM POSTAL SCALE. THE SHORT OVERALL LENGTH OF THE WEAPON MAKES THE WEAPON QUITE A BIT MORE MANEUVERABLE AT THAT WEIGHT THAN I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED. IT'S STILL A HEAVY GUN.

THE BORESCOPE REVEALED THAT THE BARRELS ARE SIX GROOVE, "POLYGONAL" RIFLED, TO MY SURPRISE. THESE BARRELS DO NOT LOOK LIKE ANY CHROME LINED BARRELS I'VE PEEKED DOWN INTO BEFORE. THE BORES ARE QUITE SMOOTH AND DEVOID OF THE USUAL ROUGHNESS I SEE IN EVEN THE BEST CHROMED BORES, BUT IT IS THE THROAT THAT AMAZED ME.... HOW DID THEY GET THEM THAT SMOOTH, I'D LIKE TO KNOW???
</div></div>

So - we have a very finely finished chrome lined, six groove 1:10 POLYGONAL rifled barrel in a gun that costs $2400 and weighs just under ten pounds, and people are bitching about it? And it's (so far) a .5 to .75MOA gun in a semi-auto that's super-short OAL and can change barrels in a split second?

What's not to like? Seriously?

I hammered over 300 rounds through mine in just a couple of hours on Saturday morning and was quite satisfied with accuracy and functioning. I shot a 1MOA group at 100 with an aimpoint, using standard Radway Green ball ammo. What more do you want??

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

LOL thats what I have been wondering.

However I think the bulk of the bitching is in regard to the new price and the weight to which my answer is that this is second only to the EMC which is 1lb lighter and 2500.00 more. Cant please everybody all the time.

 

[brunop]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338$</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: awmp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I know this has probably been answered but I can't seem to find it, is the LMT MWS .308 or 7.62x51?

The reason I'm asking is I have a lot of 7.62x51 ammo and have narrowed my rifle purchase down to the DPMS SASS 7.62x51mm or the LMT. </div></div>

.308 is the inch measurement
7.62x51 is the metric measurement

close to the same thing.......</div></div>

KYshooter338$

He was referring the the difference in the 7.62x51 NATO and the .308 Winchester rounds. 7.62 NATO, for short, isn't as high of pressure rating as is .308 Win. Not always safe to fire .308 Win in 7.62 NATO rifles </div></div>


I know this is off the LMT topic, but the claim about pressure and safety variances between 7.62x51mm vs. .308 Win thing is not so. KYShooter has it right:functionally they are almost identical - but this is NOT true in 5.56mm vs. .223.

The main difference is in how the pressure measurements are made, and in the way they are measured. 50,000 C.U.P (Copper Units Pressure - this is the nominal pressure rating for 7.62mm per US Military) is almost exactly equivalent to 62,000 psi (SAAMI specs with a piezoelectric transducer gauge for .308 Win). The peak impulse is measured differently between the two gauge types.

You can also check both newly manufactured and old school firearms: the FN FAL was marked 7.62mm for Euro civ contracts, and .308 Win or .308 Match for US civ contracts. I'm quite sure the legal departments of these large manufacturing concerns know if it is the same or not.

SAAMI ratings for .223 are significantly different than NATO specs for 5.56mm. This is why you have the option for Wylde chambers in lots of guns that will let you shoot either (both). Not so in .308 guns - they are running roughly the same pressures.

Just trying to widen the ammo selection in your new rifle.

Peace.

 

[Boris]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

If someone it truely going to complain about this or that on the weapon, dont buy it! Get something that fits your task or wants. I'm in the group of poor fucks that's waitting for mine to come in. The only thing making the wait any easyer is that I'm in another country right now!

The Brits didn't seem to have too many issues with it during their testing. Sure would like to hear from some Brit end users on their take on the rifle. No one is better to find issues in a new sysytem than Joe!

Thoes of you that have your's, please keep posting! Keep the information flowing. Photos don't hurt ether! Info on differences with and without a suppressor, load work ups, etc... look forward to hearing from you.

 

[bikemancs]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuietShootr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got mine

</div></div>

Great info! Thanks!

Out of curiosity, what's your suppressor setup?

 

[QuietShootr]

Re: LMT .308 MWS


It's a Gemtech TPR-S on an HVT Phantom Bi-Lock mount.

 

[shane45]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

The thing Im keenly interested in is more in the CQB role. I have read a number of reports that the SCAR 17 system seems to have a distinct advantage in fast follow up shots compared to an AR10 and M1A. I think it stands to reason that there wouldnt be much difference in that characteristic in the LMT/AR10 platform. Anyone done any Hammers/DoubleTaps/controlled pairs? I sold off my DSA SA58c for either this or a SCAR 17.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I have ran mine fast at 50yds, 25 yds and at 10 yds. Weight certainly is a factor here but its workable.

I have done it with a USO SN4 1-6 and also with BUIS and the scope removed, night and day difference as you could imagine the rifle is much faster to get up on target from low ready without a 1.5lb optic on top.

I have been pondering getting the 18" barrel when available and having the 16" cut to 12.5" and dimpled by adco and pinning and welding a FH of some sort to make it non NFA. Figure the reduced length and dimples should lighten it up significantly.

Appleal of this weapon is swapping barrels like this is super simple.

 

[sinister]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

The 7.62 carbine manufacturers are erring on the heavy sniper end of the market. Most are still building heavier rifles for ranges a sniper generally engages to.

Not sure any military nor the manufacturers have built a carbine for the fast/close mission as well as the mid-range shot.

The average Joe's accuracy and capability with the standard M4/M16 ranges from suck (the majority) to competent at 500 yards with what they have on-hand with generic "Everybody's issued it" gear.

The Mark 17 SCAR will fill the close-up void for SOCOM shooters who can change weapons for different mission tasking. Its accuracy at sniper support ranges is not up to standard. The generic foot Soldier will probably be carrying an M16 derivative for many more years.

The AR-10 carbine and DPMS 7.62 AP4 are current production AR-pattern 16-inchers that fit that niche right now.

 

[QuietShootr]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing Im keenly interested in is more in the CQB role. I have read a number of reports that the SCAR 17 system seems to have a distinct advantage in fast follow up shots compared to an AR10 and M1A. I think it stands to reason that there wouldnt be much difference in that characteristic in the LMT/AR10 platform. Anyone done any Hammers/DoubleTaps/controlled pairs? I sold off my DSA SA58c for either this or a SCAR 17. </div></div>

Me too. This is why I have mine set up with an Aimpoint and not a distance optic.

I ran it fast on Saturday, and I did not put my PACT timer on it (I will do that soon) but by feel, I can drive it almost as fast as an M4. I was doing some 50 yard and closer hammers on steel, and it is a breeze, and the effect on the other end is markedly different from 5.56.

Yes, it's heavy. I wouldn't be opposed to it being a little lighter, but the difference in quality between this gun and a DPMS or Armalite is HUGE. I can spend $150 having ADCO lighten up the barrel if I want to, and I have a much better gun than anything DPMS is going to put out. The only rifle that is comparable is the SR25EMC, and it's about a pound lighter for $3000 more. I'm pretty sure I can have ADCO trim a pound off this gun for a lot less than $3000.

 

[Losing Nemo]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I just picked up an MWS at the local gun show this weekend for $2,200. I havent gotten to shoot it yet but it feels as solid as my MRP. Also picked up a couple of the 7.62 Pmags and they seem to fit and eject well. One thing I am curious about is how it will run with my suppressor without an adjustable gas system. I have never used my suppressor on a semi auto gas gun in 7.62 but I hope it funtions properly. At any rate, I am excited about the rifle. I plan on using it to lessen the hog population of South Texas on my spare time.

 

[problemchild]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Losing Nemo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just picked up an MWS at the local gun show this weekend for $2,200. I havent gotten to shoot it yet but it feels as solid as my MRP. Also picked up a couple of the 7.62 Pmags and they seem to fit and eject well. One thing I am curious about is how it will run with my suppressor without an adjustable gas system. I have never used my suppressor on a semi auto gas gun in 7.62 but I hope it funtions properly. At any rate, I am excited about the rifle. I plan on using it to lessen the hog population of South Texas on my spare time. </div></div>

Your going to need a gas buster charging handle. I am already getting a puff of gas in my face at the range with no quiet can.

On an unrelated note it looks like the 5R SS barrel is going to cost about $535 dollars. They are asking $3333 for the SS gun and $2800 for the Chrome barrel gun.

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Is LMT raising the price on both models, or are those numbers just the MSRP? I've been seeing MWSs around the $2200-2300 range so if the price is rising up to $2800, that's a fairly significant increase. I hope it's just the difference in market price vs MSRP.

 

[shane45]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

It seems the price is spiraling upward as available rifles dwindle....

 

[RSR]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I just picked it up:

 

[limamike56]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

Nice looking rifle. Let us know how it shoots.

 

[DWood]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems the price is spiraling upward as available rifles dwindle.... </div></div>

There's almost always one available on GB for $2500. Here's one you can buy right now.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=183273869

 

[spr1]

Re: LMT .308 MWS

I just gropped one of these at the local shop. WOW.
I think I "need" one.