LMT MWS LM8 20" Stainless: first range trip "RANGE REPORT"

[Gildoom]

Some really good advice in here, have you tried using one of these?

Protector Model Front Bag: Shooting Equipment and Accessories

As to the bipod advice, I hate to say it, but for some goofy reason my gas 308's are harder to get perfection with.

I do not have the 20" SS, I have the 16" CL. I have not found it opening up with the last round.

I also have my scope farther forward like Elfster.

I really hope you get it figured out, I am curious what you found with your rifle and factory ammo, I only use factory ammo in my rifle.

You appear to be shooting this rifle the same way I shoot my Sig 716, it has more recoil and on the last round it tends to open up more.

Have you tried shooting with double hearing? Or turning your noise canceling off so your muffs are just quiet as hell? Sometimes this helps me.

Is your cheek weld hitting that constant spot?

Wish we lived closer, I could come spot with you. You know, brain storming here, but maybe video yourself shooting? Not to post but so you can see if you are messing up. I had a ski coach do this for me when I was in high school, I swore he was making up what I was doing but when I saw it, well, couldn't believe it.

 

[ntm]

My three stainless barrels don't shoot 178 very well.
168 amax with 44 gr of varget in lapua cases, 2.810 oal are sub moa in all my ss barrels. Consistently.
Also 110 vmax's on 47 grains of vv n135, in lapua cases, 2.710 oal are sub moa.
My 16" cl hates everything except 155 gr scenars, go figure...

I had one early production 18" mws ss barrel with nasty marks in the lands just ahead of the throat, presumably from reamer pilot.
Might want to have a look at your bore if 168 amaxs won't shoot in it...

 

[bm11]

Gildoom- I have shot with double hearing, it doesn't seem to make a difference. I don't feel like I am anticipating the shot- and I do know what it feels like. I do think I will shoot it better once I get the barrel re threaded for my suppressor. However, it is a double edge sword as I won't be able to get any warranty work done if I do.

Cheek weld is consistent but the scope is a bit too high. Lower would be more comfortable. I do adjust parallax out so it shouldn't be as much of an issue.

Ntm- Factory 168g TAP (AMAX) shot decent. Some sub MOA groups with it. Averaged right around an inch.

A buddy just shipped me some 175 SMK's, I'm hoping they shoot better than the 178's.

 

[sinister]

bm11, just looking at your groups I'm not seeing a recurring pattern. Horizontal stringing would mean being behind on your wind calls, while vertical error (craning your head and shooting eye up/down) would show from your scope ring height.

I'd get off that Atlas bipod and on to bags as you're going to get more left-right errors as well as possible canting error with the longer hammer travel time (as opposed to a bolt-action's quicker striker lock time).

Do the 178s shoot sub-MOA in your other rifles (the GAP and bolt guns)?

 

[bm11]

bm11, just looking at your groups I'm not seeing a recurring pattern. Horizontal stringing would mean being behind on your wind calls, while vertical error (craning your head and shooting eye up/down) would show from your scope ring height.

I'd get off that Atlas bipod and on to bags as you're going to get more left-right errors as well as possible canting error with the longer hammer travel time (as opposed to a bolt-action's quicker striker lock time).

Do the 178s shoot sub-MOA in your other rifles (the GAP and bolt guns)?

Never tried the 178's before. I shoot 155 Scenars exclusively though 168's & 175 SMK's shoot lights out in my AX, as do 178 AMAX's. I ended up with the 178 hpbt bullets because that's all my local guy had and in this current market I took what I could get.

A buddy sent me some 175's, I'm going to try them. I did shoot some factory 168 FGMM as well as 168 AMAX TAP and both shot MOA.

I'll try the bags, but honestly... I'm a pretty solid shooter and generally speaking, when a gun doesn't shoot, it isn't usually me.

I'm beginning to think that I have a MOA barrel, but I'm not done shooting it yet.

 

[81sfo]

Bob send me the rifle ill send it back with sub moa targets and a Texas stamp of approval. Maybe your cold environment is affecting the Lmt? Don't give up keep shooting it !

 

[bm11]

Bob send me the rifle ill send it back with sub moa targets and a Texas stamp of approval. Maybe your cold environment is affecting the Lmt? Don't give up keep shooting it !

Ha! Maybe take you up on that, if it comes down to it!

 

[Ultraman550]

I wonder if anybody knows you've hit steel out to 3k......

 

[bm11]

I wonder if anybody knows you've hit steel out to 3k......

2200, though the highlight of that trip was the cold bore hit on a man size target at a mile.

 

[Ultraman550]

Didn't you go to another course after that where 3k was the goal?


Nonetheless, 2200 is retarded far. Stop your whining about your new gun then. Go pay some attention to your new KAC, lol.

 

[jbell]

Bob send me the rifle ill send it back with sub moa targets and a Texas stamp of approval. Maybe your cold environment is affecting the Lmt? Don't give up keep shooting it !

That is prob the only thing that will get this rifle shooting, take him up on it!!

 

[Shotplacement]

The accuracy on this weapon is a little lower then I thought it would be

 

[sinister]

Originally Posted by Ultraman550
I wonder if anybody knows you've hit steel out to 3k......

2200, though the highlight of that trip was the cold bore hit on a man size target at a mile.

Dang, that's a long way with a 7.62 autoloader.

 

[bm11]

Dang, that's a long way with a 7.62 autoloader.

Bah, Chris Costa says he does it all the time with a 16" OBR!

 

[redhooker]

I would suggest you call Gene at LMT, let him know what is going on and see if he would like to have a look at the bbl or gun. You should be getting better performance out of that bbl, although the 16s usually group better than the 20s @100yds. Gene has solved more than one problem for me-I have a CL and alot less skill than you and I am grouping much tighter with a factory trigger. The way they are pumping out product right now I am sure it is possible an out-of-spec part may be present.

 

[bm11]

I would suggest you call Gene at LMT, let him know what is going on and see if he would like to have a look at the bbl or gun. You should be getting better performance out of that bbl, although the 16s usually group better than the 20s @100yds. Gene has solved more than one problem for me-I have a CL and alot less skill than you and I am grouping much tighter with a factory trigger. The way they are pumping out product right now I am sure it is possible an out-of-spec part may be present.

Thank you. I'm wondering if there has been a decline in accuracy since switching away from Rock barrels to whatever house brand they are using now?

 

[elfster1234]

if they did switch, then that's news to me!

Thank you. I'm wondering if there has been a decline in accuracy since switching away from Rock barrels to whatever house brand they are using now?

 

[wfjames22]

I would suggest you call Gene at LMT, let him know what is going on and see if he would like to have a look at the bbl or gun. You should be getting better performance out of that bbl, although the 16s usually group better than the 20s @100yds. Gene has solved more than one problem for me-I have a CL and alot less skill than you and I am grouping much tighter with a factory trigger. The way they are pumping out product right now I am sure it is possible an out-of-spec part may be present.

Matt speaks the truth. By the way...I want you to send me some target pics from that 16CL...I'll trade you some pics...

 

[diverdon]

This is kindergarten stuff compared to most of what has already been posted, please don't be offended, it is just where my head is at. Have you removed and re-torqued the barrel with a good torque wrench? When you put the base on the rail do you make sure to hold it forward as you begin to tighten it into location?

I might consider checking contact between your base and the rail. One method I might use (I am not a gun smith, so I am sure there is a better way) get a dry erase marker and a rolling paper (like from a cigaret) mark the rail on the rifle with the dry erase marker trim the rolling paper so it covers the top of the rail with no overhang than place the mount on the rifle and tighten it per your normal procedure. Then remove the base and inspect the rolling paper. I would want to see visual evidence of uniform contact between the base and the rail.

 

[ArmyJerry]

I would think it takes a lot more rounds to have a good coating of copper in a 5 r barrel than what you threw down range so far. I shoot both AR's, M1A, and bolts, and yeah they are way different animals, seems you are a very skilled shooter, coat that barrel some more and work your technique, it should settle in, if things don't tighten up after 500 send the gun back to get checked. Nice rifle btw.

 

[redhooker]

Matt speaks the truth. By the way...I want you to send me some target pics from that 16CL...I'll trade you some pics...

I am dragging the chrono down to the range this week, but I doubt I could beat yours! BTW I want to see pics of the 260 with the FH installed...

I would think it takes a lot more rounds to have a good coating of copper in a 5 r barrel than what you threw down range so far. I shoot both AR's, M1A, and bolts, and yeah they are way different animals, seems you are a very skilled shooter, coat that barrel some more and work your technique, it should settle in, if things don't tighten up after 500 send the gun back to get checked. Nice rifle btw.

I just shot a brand new 16" and after 3 zero/fouling shots (the 16 was about .3mils off my 20) and a little dry firing she proceeded to print 3-3 shot groups that made 3 holes in the paper. I know 3 shot groups don't count but I was just playing around. I then let another gent try her out and although he had never shot an AR-style rifle before he put his first 3 rounds ever into an MOA group. LMT puts quite a few rounds down the pipe at the factory on each gun they ship (although not through bbls that ship as parts). I do not doubt elfster's experience with rifle break-in, but that has not been the case with mine, and I recently got a range report from somebody (nudge-nudge) in this thread that got .5 moa out of a brand new gun. I am wondering if the "break in" some guns are needing might come from the bolt/bbl interface or some other parts mating together.

 

[bm11]

If LMT is using a barrel blank that require 500 rounds of coppering before it shoots, they should seriously be ashamed of themselves for asking $3700 for a stainless barrel semi auto. You guys making that suggestion: do you have any idea how crappy the barrel would need to be for that to be the case?

My experiences with new barrels (and I have had a BUNCH of new barrels, they generall come on new guns,) is that if the barrel is good, it starts to shoot right around the time you get it zero'd. The first round might be off a bit if it were clean. Hell, it might take 5 to settle in. But 500?

Heading to the range with jbell today. He's a very consistent, solid shooter. Between his ability to shoot and mine, as well as the hundred or so rounds of ammo we are bringing, we should see if it is going to be able to shoot. If not, its either going to LMT or getting sold, have not figured which yet.

 

[srtsam]

Does LMT market the MWS as a "precision" or "battle" rifle? that may answer a lot of questions.

 

[elfster1234]

if it doesn't shoot after this, then sell it. why give yourself the anguish.

If LMT is using a barrel blank that require 500 rounds of coppering before it shoots, they should seriously be ashamed of themselves for asking $3700 for a stainless barrel semi auto. You guys making that suggestion: do you have any idea how crappy the barrel would need to be for that to be the case?

My experiences with new barrels (and I have had a BUNCH of new barrels, they generall come on new guns,) is that if the barrel is good, it starts to shoot right around the time you get it zero'd. The first round might be off a bit if it were clean. Hell, it might take 5 to settle in. But 500?

Heading to the range with jbell today. He's a very consistent, solid shooter. Between his ability to shoot and mine, as well as the hundred or so rounds of ammo we are bringing, we should see if it is going to be able to shoot. If not, its either going to LMT or getting sold, have not figured which yet.

 

[sinister]

LMT MWS LM8 20" Stainless

This is supposed to be their top-of-the-line Mike Rock or Lothar Walther (?) barrel. If it ain't shooting I wouldn't waste any more time, effort, ammo, or patience.

Send it back and make them fix it.

I've had coaches tell me that I waited way too long because I blamed myself and trouble-shot myself and my loads rather than (defective) equipment.

 

[BCP]

Heading to the range with jbell today. He's a very consistent, solid shooter. Between his ability to shoot and mine, as well as the hundred or so rounds of ammo we are bringing, we should see if it is going to be able to shoot. If not, its either going to LMT or getting sold, have not figured which yet.

I'd send it back to LMT. If it really is a bum barrel selling it to someone else for 3k bucks is just passing on your problem to another person, not right imho.

As far as round count = more accurate I think it's just that it takes most people several hundred rounds to really get a feel for the rifle. 308 ARs are a bitch to shoot well.

 

[BCP]

I've had coaches tell me that I waited way too long because I blamed myself and trouble-shot myself and my loads rather than (defective) equipment.

Yeah I've since learned that lesson with AR barrels. I spent a lot of time trying to get a barrel from a known-good manufacturer to shoot and when I finally gave up, sent it back to them for a replacement my groups suddenly got much better.

Now whenever I put together a new AR with a target barrel I will take it out and shoot it from a mechanical rest w/factory match ammo. If it doesn't group MOA or better, back it goes.

 

[redhooker]

If LMT is using a barrel blank that require 500 rounds of coppering before it shoots, they should seriously be ashamed of themselves for asking $3700 for a stainless barrel semi auto. You guys making that suggestion: do you have any idea how crappy the barrel would need to be for that to be the case?

My experiences with new barrels (and I have had a BUNCH of new barrels, they generall come on new guns,) is that if the barrel is good, it starts to shoot right around the time you get it zero'd. The first round might be off a bit if it were clean. Hell, it might take 5 to settle in. But 500?

Heading to the range with jbell today. He's a very consistent, solid shooter. Between his ability to shoot and mine, as well as the hundred or so rounds of ammo we are bringing, we should see if it is going to be able to shoot. If not, its either going to LMT or getting sold, have not figured which yet.

I agree with you 100%, that's why I replied to say I had no such "break-in" experience with mine. It was a shooter from the start. Please take my advice and contact Gene and see what he says about it. They have been a great company to deal with and will most likely solve your problem.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

With a gun like a lmt u could easily send off just the barrel to the company if problems continue. I could see a bolt gun or something but the mws gives him more options

 

[EricCartmann]

I do not think those groups are that bad for a new and off the rack semi auto AR if you are shooting factory ammo. I know these are reloads, but this just means you need more break in or more load development. My AR10 SASS does not shoot well at all with long bullets such as the 178gr AMAX and the 155gr Lapua Scenars, therefore I don't bother shooting those anymore.

My SASS seems to do the best with SMKs, both 168 and 175 gr. I have found the groups more consistent no matter how much I use for a Charge. My "Generic All Purpose Load" is 175gr SMKs is 42.3 gr Varget, LC full sized cases, 168gr or 175gr SMKs. All my precision Semi Autos are less than 1 MOA with this load. Even half MOA is reached every once in awhile.

When shooting for groups from semi auto, you should never let the bolt lock back on the last round. It does seem to effect accuracy when bolt locks back, this goes for all semi auto guns, not just ARs. So just make sure you still have a round or 2 before firing that last shot to prevent bolt from locking back.

As for break in, Some barrels shoots the nuts straight from the Factory, while others seem to need a break in period for both action and barrel before groups start tightening up. Cleaning frequently helps with break in, but nothing breaks in a rifle better than shooting it.

 

[bm11]

I agree with you 100%, that's why I replied to say I had no such "break-in" experience with mine. It was a shooter from the start. Please take my advice and contact Gene and see what he says about it. They have been a great company to deal with and will most likely solve your problem.

You and I always agreed on this one! It shot better today, but I am still considering sending it back. Range report shortly...

 

[Shoots 700's]

What do you plan on doing with this rifle besides shooting it for groups?

 

[bm11]

What do you plan on doing with this rifle besides shooting it for groups?

Ha, good question! I generally shoot groups while doing load development, and then move to banging steel on out to 1000 or so yards. In this case, I have had a hard time making it past the "load development" stage.