Suppressors Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

[CDiPrecision]

I was talking with a Sheriff friend of mine last night and he showed me his Short barreled shotgun, and the rounds they have. 12Ga 00 Buck, 8 pellets, and they apparently have netting or membrane around the pellets. This holds them together till they impact(No spreadout). I don't remember what they were called but they were pretty cool

 

[Team_SasQuatch]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

The LE in this area along with other agencies use a reduced recoil 00 buck....never dissected one, but maybe the same thing...

Fun to shoot....

Bruce

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

Who is the manufactuer?

 

[CDiPrecision]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

I think it was Federal, but not positive..

 

[Ronnie Bell]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

Sounds like the Federal Tactical buckshot round, not quite sure on that though. I have seen something like what you described in use for practice and I thought the guys that were shooting them were using slugs because the holes were so tight!

 

[Conqueror]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

Why not just use slugs?

 

[GM2]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

overpenetration

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

GM2 - you state this based on, testing or opinion?

 

[Ronnie Bell]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

I have always heard that buckshot is the one to worry about with over penetration, is this correct?

 

[BKSSNIPER]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

federal has a bonded buckshot round that stays solid until it strikes and then releases the buckshot, like a huge glaser or magsafe..\\

 

[Conqueror]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GM2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">overpenetration </div></div>
Overblown concern. 00 Buckshot will penetrate interior walls with aplomb. Anything that will penetrate a human ribcage will not be deterred by a couple sheets of drywall and some fiberglass insulation.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

Conqueror thanks for the reality moment.


GM there should be no more concerns with this 00 buck load than any other 00 buck load. This isn't a slug. The physics would say these are 9 pellets with independent mass traveling in the same space, whereas a slug is a single (much heavier) mass traveling in the same space. Providing that the netting allows for release upon impact they should behave very differently.

Good luck

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/shotshell/tacticalprcsnbcksht.aspx

 

[Tflhnd1]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

Slugs...I have personally seen a Rem. 1 ounce slug, fired from a 16" 870, go through front panel of a min. level IIA vest, then through a yellow pages phone book, 4.5+" in width, then through the back panel of the vest. Info only.

 

[CDiPrecision]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

Yeah those Federal loads look like them..they must be reduced power to an extent too as pump actions only.

HE had em in a SBS. Senior guys have more choices as to what they can have.. kinda kool.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GM2 - you state this based on, testing or opinion?</div></div>

It has been several years, but I did attend an ATK ballistics workshop where we killed jello (calibrated geletin) for a whole day. If you use the standard of 12-18 inches being ideal, every 00 buckshot load we used overpenetrated. But nothing like the slugs. The slugs were the zen masters of going through blocks stacked one in front of the other. Slugs will have a problem with over-penetrating a person hit - but that's their niche. If you need to knock a hole in a wall and get the guy behind it (where you reasonable know he is), the slug is your buddy.

As far as the new Fed precision buck round - I think people have become obsessed with making the smallest pattern possible. The truflight wad maked a huge difference in our shotguns. We are easily able to keep all pellets on target at 25 and even further. But I want SOME dispersion for buck rounds because I primarily see them as inside the house guns. I think keeping the buck pattern together until it hit takes away somewhat from what makes buck so good in close.

But I'd like to see how this new stuff does in tests. I might learn something new or change my opinions.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

SPDSNYPR I'm with you.

I did my own testing a few years back, 12 sheets of sheetrock stood up and fired at from about 10 yards.

Standard 2.75" Remington 00 buck went through 9 sheets of it.

I didn't do slugs but I bet they would have too..

That was fired from a Mossberg 500, but I'm an 870 guy now...



I've also seen the plastic encased rounds with birdshot that explode on impact - if you research "Rat hole wound" the link to come up first is the place I believe....


I'm thinking bird shot would be lethal and safer in a home where there are close neighbors, but I still have the 00 on the side of the shotgun in easy reach. Don't keep it loaded, have other weapons for that.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

About the bird shot . . . . . we had a shooting last week involving two cousins, a 12 ga, and some #8 bird shot. Two rounds at close range. The bird shot made an impressive wound, but was VERY shallow. The shootee lived and is just missing some flesh. Frankly, I would have thought the bird shot would have gone deeper, but it didn't. I'd still stick with 00 buck - just don't miss.

It's been a week of shooting surprises. A few weeks ago one gangbanger shot another with a .380 with I think winchester hollow points. HP round didn't expand at all, and penetrated the width of a really big dude, exited his rib, and lodged in this guy's giant arm. A lot more penetration than I thought the .380 was capable of. He lived too.


We really need to put on a shooting school for our local bad guys. They can't seem to kill each other right.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GM2 - you state this based on, testing or opinion?</div></div>

It has been several years, but I did attend an ATK ballistics workshop where we killed jello (calibrated geletin) for a whole day. If you use the standard of 12-18 inches being ideal, every 00 buckshot load we used overpenetrated. But nothing like the slugs. The slugs were the zen masters of going through blocks stacked one in front of the other. Slugs will have a problem with over-penetrating a person hit - but that's their niche. If you need to knock a hole in a wall and get the guy behind it (where you reasonable know he is), the slug is your buddy.

As far as the new Fed precision buck round - I think people have become obsessed with making the smallest pattern possible. The truflight wad maked a huge difference in our shotguns. We are easily able to keep all pellets on target at 25 and even further. But I want SOME dispersion for buck rounds because I primarily see them as inside the house guns. I think keeping the buck pattern together until it hit takes away somewhat from what makes buck so good in close.

But I'd like to see how this new stuff does in tests. I might learn something new or change my opinions. </div></div>


SPDSYNPR – good points and it echoes what Conqueror was saying. While I did a poor job what I meant was this is 00 load not a slug. That said, two other things that maybe you can help with - for years I have seen people wring their hands on the net about the much feared but little studied 'over penetration' of various projectiles. Aside from the fact that jello and denim are more akin to shooting through a cube of lard than a life form as it doesn't accurately represent the different densities of fluid, fat, muscle, connective tissue, and bone all of which are found in close proximity anywhere in the body; I have yet to see a study wherein there was a best effort at a jello / denim torso, then a chronograph, then a space, and then another jello denim torso. Have you ever seen one? As any of us that have been smacked several times with ricochet can attest, over penetration is not always synonymous with injury anywhere except the web.

Also, maybe you have seen / read / witnessed much more than I - but the vast majority of human shootings that I have read about involving a slug - it did not fully penetrate.

If you or anyone else has a jello / chrono / jello test from a reputable source and / or cataloged data on slugs in humans I’d love to see it.

Good luck

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">About the bird shot . . . . . we had a shooting last week involving two cousins, a 12 ga, and some #8 bird shot. Two rounds at close range. The bird shot made an impressive wound, but was VERY shallow. The shootee lived and is just missing some flesh. Frankly, I would have thought the bird shot would have gone deeper, but it didn't. I'd still stick with 00 buck - just don't miss.

It's been a week of shooting surprises. A few weeks ago one gangbanger shot another with a .380 with I think winchester hollow points. HP round didn't expand at all, and penetrated the width of a really big dude, exited his rib, and lodged in this guy's giant arm. A lot more penetration than I thought the .380 was capable of. He lived too.


We really need to put on a shooting school for our local bad guys. They can't seem to kill each other right. </div></div>

Can you tell us more about both of these?

The #8's - did it hit the rib cage (or some other area increased density) or were the pellets confined to a soft area like the stomach?

The .380 - I assume you are saying it entered (for example) on the left side, exited right side and came to a stop at / in the right arm? Contact shot? Any word on if the bullet hit anything solid while passing through the torso? Could you tell how much penetration was into the arm? What was the lucky recipient wearing when they were shot? (Assuming the cavity was plugged with clothing and thus contributed to the failure to expand)

Good thought on the school, maybe it could serve as a terminal ballistics lab as well.

Stay safe.

Good luck

 

[CDiPrecision]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

Interesting details. In my House m4 Benelli, I run the first 2 round #5 Birdshot, then 00 buck after that. #5 highbrass will do some hurtin, and after that Im going for more.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

CDi - no I have not seen the sort of tests you mention. In fact, I think it would be a great test. The same with walls - people who do the test always put the walls close together, which is obviously not how houses are built. I think the space in between is very important, since drag and gravity are big problems to bullets.

Now, this wasn't a defensive shooting really - really an attempted murder. No large bones were hit. I'm sure larger shot would have gone deeper. But frankly, I always assumed two close range shots with a 12 ga would do just about anybody in. When they told us about the shooting at shift change, I was shocked to hear the guy lived. I was shown pictures of the wound the night of the shooting - just a rat hole from the outside.

On the .380 shooting - it happened outside one of our local bars. I caught the shooter basically by luck when I set up down the road. One of the supervisors described the wound to me. It was a bar fight, one guy went to his car the retreve a gun, since the guy he confronted was much larger than his (a college football player - described as "huge"). He approached him and shot at about 5-7 feet. The victim saw him raising the gun and turned. The one that hit the bullet penetrated just a t-shirt, entered on right near the front (not well centered - guess that's what saved him), hit no ribs, exited on the left - more t-shirt, and then hit his arm, penetrated into the arm and stopped. The investigator who worked the shooting said he saw the x-ray and it was an unexpanded hollow-point bullet.

I ended up catching a guy who matched the description of the shooter two miles away at a convenience store. He just looked like the description given over the radio, so I grabbed him. He had a .380 in his waisteband, missing 2 rounds from the mag. The rounds were winchester hollow points. Gun was a piece of crap that I'm surprised went off twice in a row.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

Thank you

Good luck

 

[rrflyer]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

heard the same about birdshot from some of the medics I used to work with. Incredibly nasty flesh wounds.

 

[Whiskey 2-1]

Re: Local SO has cool 00 Buck rounds..

There are always surprises as to what bullets and calibers do when they impact people. I am constantly learning.

Almost universally, I see small shot penetrate very poorly. I have seen quite a few people come in with nasty appearing- but very shallow- wounds from bird shot. Would I want to be shot by it? Hell no. If you took a volley in the face or neck could it be fatal? Yes. Would I ever willingly count on it? No. Even thin people have a significant amount of soft tissue to penetrate before you get to heart/lungs/etc. Yes, some pellets may penetrate. However, they are small, moving slowly, and do not deform to any appreciable degree. They also do not have the velocity to cause secondary fragmentation of bone, etc. Yes, it can drop a lung- but people live surprisingly long with a simple pneumothorax.

As for the 380, we see some small rounds penetrate quite well. New Orleans folks as a general rule arent small, and I regularly see big uns with through-and-throughs from 25s, 380s and 9s. If the round doesnt impact bone, they will quite often traverse the torso and can end up in arms/other people. If they hit rib- much different story. Adipose tissue doesnt offer much resistance, neither does lung. Muscle and bone stop handgun rounds much better.

We dont see many wounds from shotgun slugs. I think I see more less lethal shotgun rounds than slugs. However, from general bullet effects on people and years of shooting, my money would be solidly on slugs over buckshot for penetration. Its hard to stop that much mass.

Sean